RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: KDee on Friday 09 December 11 01:23 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to find information regarding my mom's uncle, Isaac Saunders.
What I know:
b. 27 Feb 1892, Ballyragget/Tinnislatty, Kilkenny, Ireland, to Robert
Saunders and Bridget Walsh Saunders.
Emigrated to Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada around 1909. May have lived with
Walter Saunders or Malachi Saunders of Ritchot, Canada.
1914 address of 313 Bradford St., Winnipeg, Manitoba. Wife's name not
legible (Agnes? Aness?, Anna?)
Enlisted in Canadian Overseas Expedition Forces, 44th Battalion, in Jan. 1915.
Any information regarding Isaac, and/or his relatives in Canada would be
greatly appreciated.
Thank you
KD
(1st time posting)
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Welcome to Rootschat! We'll see what we can find on him...In the meantime did you note the 2 siblings married in New York? http://www.rootschat.com/links/0i7w/ There is also a U.S. board on rootschat where they will find more for you... Off to hunt for something on your Isaac...
Haven't found anything substantial...don't see his immigration, nor have I found him on census yet...
there is one Manitoba marriage but not an Anne.... Isaac William SAUNDERS & Mary Ellen WHYTE
Nov. 29 /1910 PLACE: LOUISE Mb. http://vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/Query.php
Will post first page of his signup even though you have it. I see that is where you got Ritchot... ...odd that he put Walter and not name his wife as N.O.K. http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gat2/080696a.gif
there is only a death for an Elanon Saunders age 2,1908 and a gabriel SAMIDERS 1909 in Ritchot...so may belong to Walter, but no birth to substantiate...also don't see Walter in Richot as yet in 1911 either...
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You should be able to see his attestation papers.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=214346&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=bsl8hreoae9niqkiv92sda6d31
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XLY7-T6X
Further information on this border crossing (although I think you have it as there has been a user submitted correction to it)
Crossed Dec 7, 1909 going to New York, New York. Last address in Canada was Ritchoh, Man. Arrived in Canada at the port of Quebec in 1909 with ship not known. going to sister Marion "Stryash" (not sure how accurate that interpretation is) in New York.
Debbie
Added: Perhaps this location as to the families residence
http://www.ritchot.com/
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Wow, not finding these people on censuses at all...The mother of the Gabriel Saunders was Theresa Saunders...that's all I have found thus far... :-\ :-\
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Wow, not finding these people on censuses at all...
Same. I can't find any of the Saunders name mentioned in the opening post. I checked the 1916 census for Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta and there is a difference couple living at 313 Bradford Street.
Other than the border crossing document and the Attestation Papers, I can't find any trace of Isaac.
KD, did Isaac have a middle name? Could the marriage JJ found be him?
Jacquie
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No luck with censuses here either.
An I Saunders with what looks to be the same CEF number as the posted attestation returned to Canada 28 Oct 1918 arriving Halifax on the Araguaya. There is no indication of his ultimate destination.
PB
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Wow! How great is this website! I am so very appreciative of your time and efforts. Thanks everyone for helping me find the elusive Isaac Saunders.
I just finished reading the replies and haven't yet explored the links you all have kindly shared...but thought I would first post a response with what I do know (and my thanks) then check out those links and then post again.
The Isaac William Saunders that JJ found was born in New Brunswick, Canada, so that rules him out.
Although I didn't see any reference to Isaac's sister in my copy of the Border Crossing, that sister would have been Stasia (or Statia) Moylan, nee Saunders, my grandmother.
Mysteriously, Isaac never reached Stasia's home nor visited his other 2 sisters who also lived in NY.
Stasia was supposed to continue on to Canada to live with 'an aunt' but didn't get past NYC. I thought finding Isaac would lead me to that 'aunt' and Walter and Malachi.
Isaac did not have a known middle name....nor did any of his 18 siblings (all of whom I have been able to locate)
The last entries in the family notebook (which I believe were the last contact Isaac had with his family) show the 313 Bradford Street address, with the illegible first name of Isaac's wife and Isaac's service number and battalion assignment from CEF enlistment in 1915.
I have been looking for Isaac for over a year...
I have his Irish birth registration,
his 1901 Irish census,
the Border Crossing information sans the reference to Stasia,
the Attestation Papers,
and the entries from the family notebook
There is always the possibility that he didn't return from WWI...but the Saunders were all huge letter writers..I can't believe the family wasn't told and word is they wrote to Isaac's wife often while he was in the service especially.
They can't all of vanished, could they?
Thanks again for your time and efforts....can't wait to hit those links now!
KD
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Oops..in re-reading my original post, I see I listed the wrong birth date
Should read 27 Feb 1891 not 1892. So very sorry!
Polar bear - may I ask where you located Isaac's return info? And thank you for that update. I'm so relieved Isaac wasn't a casualty!
KD
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Isaac's return was on the Canadian *A* indexed as I Saunders.
RE: the 1909 border crossing ...
Knowing the name of the sister in NY is a great help. The original image of her name to me looks like Stryesh Molion or Mylion so is probably close enough. Her address is given as 334 East 39th (I think) St in NY.
If one takes a Scottish accent into account, the person Isaac names as next of kin is likely his uncle named Malachi (doesn't look like Walter to me) in Ritchot.
Isaac gives his birth place as the town of Lisdonney in Ireland and states he arrived Quebec 1909 but there is a ? for the ship, unfortunately.
If you were able to access the image of the 1909 border crossing, did you know there was an image of a 2nd page that has this additional info on it ? (Click the forward arrow)
If you haven't had access to the original image, you might check if your local library subscribes to Ancestry Library Edition b/c this would give you access to these Canadian records and their images.
PB
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Isaac did not have a known middle name....nor did any of his 18 siblings (all of whom I have been able to locate)
Is it possible he did have a middle name but it wasn't on the birth/baptism records? The reason I ask is the LDS website has a Westchester, New York marriage for a John M. Saunders who listed his parents as Robert Saunders and Bridget Walsh. Here's a link to the entry:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FFT9-Y4F
There is also an image available (bottom right-hand entry).
Jacquie
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Jacquie - I stand oh so very corrected!
Following JJ's link, I saw the entry for John M. Saunders, and for Mary Ann Saunders immediately after my last post.
Neither middle name is known to my Mom, or cousins in Ireland.
Also in that link I found Stasia's (Anastasia) marriage record! Her first name was transcribed as Hanastasia, which maybe why I couldn't locate it previously.
I just downloaded the image of John's marriage record, thanks to your tip.
SO Yes it is very possible Isaac had a middle name that's not shown in the family records.
KD
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Yes we mustn't assume middle names don't exist...My ancestors would have never been found as some like their middle names better...or used them to know "Jr." from "Sr." I suppose...
This is the area he gave his address in on your 1914 entry....automatedgenealogy.com/census11/Test9.jsp?id=65943
The surname listing has some questionable entries which I cannot access....something odd about the results for anything with a question mark all saying not found in the district...
I have tried to complain before but they won't allow any new members onto their site as it is overloaded...
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/Test17.jsp?sdid=3940
If I had some time I would go down and look at some directory listings for you...but I am actually finally busy with some work to get done for the season...speaking of which, back at it!!!
and, oh dear...19 children?? ack ....I though my dad had a lot of siblings with twelve...
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Polar Bear - Thanks for the heads up on the 2nd page of the Border Crossing document!
Know I know what Debbie was referencing in her post. Feeling a little foolish for not catching that...but having that additional information more than makes up for it.
I checked Stasia's 1910 Census and 334 East 39th Street was her address.
I agree the Border Crossing names Malachi, as Isaac's nearest relative in Canada. Walter was referenced as NOK on the attestation paper. I think I must have mixed them up.
A little background info:
The town Isaac was born in was Lisdowney, in County Kilkenny. The town of Lisdowney, was divided into districts.
The Saunders home was located across 2 districts: Balleyragget and Tinnislatty.
At the time street addresses weren't used. Letters were addressed and the return addresses alternately read "Saunders, Tinnislatty, Lisdowney, Kilkenny" or "Saunders, Ballyragget, Lisdowney, Kilkenny"
Isaac used Balleyragget as his birth town on his attestation papers and as you advised he listed Lisdowney on the Border Crossing. But it's the same Isaac [I'm sure this was intentional on Isaac's part and done just to thwart later attempts to research his wherabouts ;) ]
Regarding Isaac's return from service...I apologize in advance for my ignorance but I'm not sure what "Canadian *A* indexed as I Saunders" refers to, nor where Isaac's return date, ship, port etc were listed. Can I bother you for that information?
Lastly, I looked through the family notebook again (or rather my PDF copy of same) and saw an undated notation for Isaac with the following address "Ink Store, Post Office, 7 Eildon West, Manitoba Canada.
Vbain - the link to the Soldiers of the First World War - CEF is terrific!
KD
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There are at least 3 trees on ancestry for this family but all list a Michael b. 1882 and d. 1962 (place not listed) but no Malachi. Are these the same person?
The trees also show Walter b. 1889 d. 1965 in Ireland.
Debbie
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Apologies ... forgot you are new. A very warm welcome :).
I generally use *A* as a short form for Ancestry b/c it is shorter to type.
The record for Isaac's return was on Ancestry.ca but would also be available through a world subscription or through the Ancestry Library Edition I mentioned earlier.
The indexing refers to what you would put in the Ancestry search boxes to find the record. Under first name he is only listed as 'I' in the image so this is what ancestry has his first name indexed as. The ship, port, etc are listed with this record. Hope this makes sense? If not, ask again :).
Here is a link to the free record from Library and Archives Canada. Looks like it was a hospital ship. You can look at the images but the resolution is not good and there is no apparent way to increase the size to see the images better (like you can on *A*). Isaac is on the last page, upper right corner column.
Bouncing screen ... will continue
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Debbie- 2 items
First - When I posted my original inquiry about Isaac, it never occurred to me to reference the family tree I started on ancestry. Sorry for that. That tree is at http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/21504291/family?fpid=1902404054.
With the exception of Robert and Bridget, I have limited information on the Saunders family. If I have information on a possible relative, I use all capital letters for the surname. For example, Walter was listed as Next of Kin to Isaac. I deduced that Walter must be Isaac's uncle, and a brother of Robert Saunders, but haven't been able to find other records for Walter to support that deduction, so on the family tree his name reads Walter SAUNDERS.
The Michael b. 1882, and Walter b. 1889 that you found were Isaac's brothers. Malachi (if that is a correct translation) was, I believe, listed as Isaac's uncle.
Second - I have been immersed in the automatedgenealogy.com website since receiving JJs link last night. I was looking for Walter and Malachi in the 1901 and 1906 census, hoping to find a connection that ancestry may have missed. This morning, I concentrated on trying to find Manitoba Saunders with Given names similar to the given names of my Saunders family, in the 1901 Canada Census.
There was an entry in the family notebook that reads
"1867-Brother Mick went to America"
Wasn't sure if Mick was Robert or Bridget's brother, but made a leap and enter Mick as Michael SAUNDERS on the family tree. I had found a passenger list showing a Michael arriving in NY around that time, but was unable to locate any other US records.
.....Here's where your brilliance comes in-
In the 1901 Census, I found a Michael Saunders in Manitoba, line 47. The link to the 1911 Census at line 16, shows Michael "Sanders ?" with a son, at line 19, named Walter b. April 1884. (I think the 1901 Census, line19, lists him as Wallis b. Aug 1883)
There is also a daughter Alice, another similar given name.
http://automatedgenealogy.com/uidlinks/Links.jsp?uid=150215685
I had just made the connection between brother Mick and Michael from the Canada Census when I received your post inquiring as to whether Malachi could be Michael! The fates must be at work.
Also, my computer is ancient...it takes forever to load any internet page, so please forgive my delayed replies.
I'm planning on searching ancestry for Michael Saunders Canada Census to determine if his birthplace is listed as Ireland...hope I'm not getting excited over nothing! Given the speed of my computer it will take awhile but I'll post back with any updates.
Thanks again!
KD
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Continuing ....
You can also order Isaac's complete military file via the link vbain posted earlier (I'll re-post it here too).
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=214346&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=bsl8hreoae9niqkiv92sda6d31
Click on 'How to consult ... or order ...' just above his name. The cost is reasonable although it varies according to the size of the file. If he came home on a hospital ship, his file may be bigger than some but you never know.
PB
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Manitoba Vital Statistics show a marriage between Michael Sanders and Louisa Schenk 06/06/1907 at Winnipeg. The daughter on the 1911 census Helen could be the one born 16/11/1901 at Winnipeg with the mother's name mistranscribed on the record as Lauria Scroggie. There is a death for Michael Sanders registered at St. Vital on 19/04/1915 at age 74. Any of these can be ordered for $12.00 each and might contain information to include or exclude as family.
The family you found in 1901 is in Lisgar Manitoba on the 1891 census. Wife Mary is alive and shows an 1845 birth in Ireland. Children are Michael 17, John 16, Catherine 14, Julia 11, Phillip 9, Walter 7 and William 2. All children born in U.S.
On the 1880 US Census for Esopus Ulster New York State
Michael Sanders 40, b. Ire. with wife Mary 34 b. Ire and children
James 9 b. New York, John 6 b. New York, Katie 4 b. New York and Julia 6 mos. b. Jan in New York
Debbie
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Polar Bear - I found the passenger list for Isaac that you referenced, thanks for the info. And the link to get Isaac's service file is true treasure.
I had posted my original inquiry on ancestry.com as well as here. Tonight I received a reply, and thought I would share the following:
follow this link for obit
http://manitobia.ca/content/en/newspapers/WPT/1945/06/28/articles/226.xml/iarchives?query=isaac%20saunders
and another obit posted a day later
http://manitobia.ca/content/en/newspapers/WPT/1945/06/29/articles/218.xml/iarchives?query=isaac%20saunders
I know Isaac initially entered Canada in 1909, and then entered the US later that year. The next documented contact with the family contains the Bradford Street address, and
the illegible wife's name, which was 1914.
Using the 1914 date would fit with the information in the 1st obituary.
I guess it's safe to say we found Isaac.
JJ, vbain, Debbie, Jacquie, and Polar Bear - I can't thank you enough for your help in searching for Isaac and for making my first RootsChat.com experience a terrific one.
All the best and thank you again...
KD
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Thank you Debbie, I'll follow up on both these families!
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Ah, had seen Michael and son Walter, but I didn't see him with or near that family & don't have my usual time to open the mind up to make the connections... Well done everyone...
I don't get to look at the directories all that often, but should I make a trip I'll have a peek for Isaac, if you still want a little more information from any Winnipeg entries...
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JJ- I would greatly appreciate any and all information...following up on Debbie's post I have begun to attach the Lisgar Michael's info to brother Mick's profile on the ancestry family tree. I hope to learn as much as I can about the Canadian branch of the Saunders family.
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As an aside...I told my mom, Mary, (Stasia's 10th and youngest child) about finding Isaac.
Stasia would often wonder aloud as to what happened to Isaac. Mary commented "isn't it amazing that mama's questions are answered all these years past".
Mary now has her own questions as to why Isaac was out of communication with his family.
It's a must that I order Isaac's military service file.
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The 1921 Canada census is due to be released in 2013. Bit of a wait but not too long now and perhaps this will shed some light on your family.
PB
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follow this link for obit
http://manitobia.ca/content/en/newspapers/WPT/1945/06/28/articles/226.xml/iarchives?query=isaac%20saunder
At least I've now discovered why I wasn't able to find his obituary in the Winnipeg Free Press - it was first published under the name Saunderson on 28 June 1945 and as Saunder on 29 Jun 1945.
Jacquie
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although stars don't really mean diddly...Our Polarbear has earned hers asking few questions, but helping on the site...We are so lucky to have so many people with a sharing nature on this site.
Rather than start a new thread... I'll just say "Congrats on the new status, P.B." We really appreciate you on here...as we do all the others who give of their time and carefully treat other's genealogy as they would their own
KD you have absolutely done the right thing in posting information found for you. Wow, we can't train some who've been on here for ages to do that...
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My congratulations too Polar Bear Your posts were most helpful!
JJ - Thank you!
I was nervous posting my initial inquiry...so instead of ignoring the "tips" and/or guidelines for newbys, I read those sections and the links therein.
Was hoping I didn't break protocol with my lengthy posts.
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Thank you so much for your good wishes, J.J. and KDee :). I have a great time trying to ferret out info for folks.
Kind regards
Polarbear
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Hello All!
Isaac Saunders grand niece Kdee is checking in.
First, thank you all again for your help in finding Isaac. Your time and efforts have been regaled to all the family and friends.
Next, in re-rereading my last post, I'm horrified at how careless I was in how I worded my reply to JJ.
I wrote:
I was nervous posting my initial inquiry...so instead of ignoring the "tips" and/or guidelines for newbys, I read those sections and the links therein.
Which should have read:
...so instead of proceeding with my usual habit of ignoring the "tips" and/or guidelines for newbys, I read those sections and the links therein.
I was directing the "ignoring" comment only at myself.
IF i had thoroughly read the help section, I would have been more aware of how my post could read.
My apologies.
Also, while it took me a few attempts to finally submit a correct order form request, the Library and Archives of Canada just sent word that a copy of Isaac's service file will be completed by March 5, 2012. I certainly wouldn't have gotten that far without your assistance and direction!
I will post an "Isaac update" once I read the file.
And I do hope that I haven't worn out my welcome on Canada Rootschat.com
All the best
KD
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Like KD, Isaac was also my great uncle and I have been watching from afar with great interest. But the most amazing part of Isaac's story is his experiences in Nortern France and Belgium in WW1. I myself live in Kent, England and regularly visit the continent on holiday and day trips and most of the places mentioned in his battalion history are well known to me.
Isaac was very badly wounded at the battle of Passchendaele in Nov 1917. He spent many months recouperating but I think he suffered from the injuries right up to his early death at the age of 56.
The next time I drive through Belgium I will be thinking of him.
On the comment of 19 siblings I have heard that Isac's mother did actually have 22 confinements!
And on the question of family names my grandfather was also a Michael Saunders (b 1882 d 1962) and the second eldest of Isaac's brothers.
But many thanks to you all.
Bill Earls
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Welcome to the thread, and also to Rootschat, Bill! Enjoy the site...
Hmmm...confinements, this term is new to me...22 births...YIKES!!!
yes the poor lads who fought that wicked war surely held on to their battle scars. Nevermind the effect from the gassing and mental anguish of it all.
and KD I must have missed my notification when you replied....sorry I hadn't answered! Nobody has ever "worn out their welcome on Canada Rootschat " as far as I know. :D ;D
We're here to help out and enjoy doing it.
all the best, J.J.
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Here is the link to the digitized files for Isaac for any family to now have...perhaps a little sad , but also happy that one family member pays for it but then it is there for all...we'll think of it as helping bits of history be revealed.
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/cef/8001-9000/8659-35.pdf
My grandfather changed forces and went over to a Scottish unit after he was wounded, so I was deprived of most of his information as many U.K. files were destroyed during the 2 WW...I only have the odd mention of him in war diaries, and only because he was an officer was he mentioned occasionally..
Wow, just read to halfway through and see he was really in rough shape, poor lad.
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Hello cousin I'm also a grand niece of the tinnislatty 17 I live in cullahill village near tinnislatty, ,my mam is bridie saunders her dad was walter saunders one of the 17,,,,
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Hi addergoole,
Welcome to RootsChat, your cousin may have missed your reply, which member are you addressing ?
Regards
Sarah
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Hi Sarah,
KDee here. I received a"Topics Reply" email from RootsChat and contacted addergoole via private message. I didn't know if I should post it on topic page...sorry to trouble you!
I so love this site... RootsChat has helped me find another of Isaac's Greats!
While we haven't been able to find Isaac's wife referenced in his military service file and family recollections (also thought to have had 2 children) the RootsChat's members has helped us find Isaac after years of searching.
Best Regards,
KD
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Hi KD,
I was not too sure if you were trying to connect to an older post on the thread but can see that Addergoole is a new member so should hopefully be able to reply soon to your message.
Please note that as a new member Addergoole will not be able to reply to your pm until they have made another post on the thread ;)
Sarah
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With regard to Isaac's wife, if you look past all the medical reports in his military file and find his pay records you will see that when he first signs up he assigns 17 dollars per month of his pay to his wife. It appears that the paymasters office had trouble finding the correct address to mail this stipend at first, and then the payments to the wife were stopped and re-directed to his cousin. There is some reference regarding this change to a letter which might have been from a lawyers office. I suspect that either the wife died or there was a marriage breakdown.
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Better correct my mistakes before I get chastised. As seen on page 94 of his military file, Isaac's wife Mary received an initial payment of $55 in March 1915 and $20 per month from then until March 1916. The last check was cancelled in reponse to a letter from Moore & Sutherland dated or recieved March 27, 1916 which appears to have said she was no longer eligible.
The address on this form of 361 Harbison is interesting in that it is the third and last address to which these cheques were mailed and also because this was across the street from 356 Harbison where Isaac's cousin William was sent the $17 per month that Isaac assigned to him after the payments to his wife were cancelled.
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Hello Sarah,
Addergoole replied to my PM and we are now in corresponding about Saunders family history. My thanks again :)
Hello Manawakian! and thank you for your insights! The original information I had showed the family writing to Isaac's wife as seen on attached. I think JJ had pointed out the service payroll notation. Can't seem to find marriage, divorce, death (beside obit) or birth of children records. I checked Census records through 1921... Only new information (aside from veterans records) I found was on FamilySearch:
Isaac Saunders
Employee
Canada Census, 1911
My continuing thanks for your help...
KD
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Checked a couple of Henderson's Winnipeg Directories, William Saunders was a resident of 356 Harbison in both 1915 & 1919. Moore & Sutherland were barristers with offices in the Kennedy Bldg on Portage Avenue Winnipeg. Looked for a " no longer responsible for debts incurred by ... as she has left my bed and board " posted in the Winnipeg Free Press by Isaac in 1916 but did not find.
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Thank you anyway for your efforts manawakian. And the hunt for Uncle Isaac continues... ;)
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Amazing that FamilySearch came up with Isaac Saunders from the illegible original 1911 cenus shown below. Ancestry has this as Isado Sanne & AutomtedGenealogy as Isaac Samuels. Feb 1891 birth fits, not shown below, religion Catholic, occupation farm hand.
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Wow, that really is amazing! Thanks for the image manawakian. Isaac and i share the same birthday, February 27th, though some eighty years and an ocean apart
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In the 1921 Winnipeg census there is an Isaac Sanders living on Henry Avenue. He is shown as a 26 year old single male born Ireland, came to Canada 1910, Roman Catholic, occupation hotel porter.
The only other resident of this house was Emily Schofield an 18 year old single female. She is shown as a boarder, born Manitoba, Roman Catholic, working in a restaraunt.
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Sounds like you found Isaac! His obit states re was working at the St Regis Hotel following his return from WWI. Great work manawakian!
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1924 Henderson's Winnipeg Directory has Isaac Saunders at 444 Henry Ave.
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Terrific work manawakian! Showing my ignorance here, but what is Henderson's Directory and is it accessible to the public?
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Hendersons directories for many western Canadian cities can be found here at no cost.
http://peel.library.ualberta.ca/index.html
Click on books then search henderson's AND winnipeg AND directory, search through the findings for the year you want then select that book. You can then search for surnames or street names. If searching for a surname such as Saunders it will list all the pages where the name appears. The vital page, which takes some hunt and peck to find, is the surname index, which lists all Saunders found elsewhere in the book.
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Michael Saunders came to Manitoba about 1890 with his wife Mary and 7 children all born USA. He was a market gardener in what was then the rural municipality of Kildonan and is now a district at the north end of the city of Winnipeg. At some time between 1906 and 1911 he moved to the municipality of Ritchot, which is located just to the south of Winnipeg, where he continued to garden. He can be found by doing a free search of cenuses here
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/Pages/census.aspx
Do an advanced search using the info on the following table
Year Surname District Sub-district Number
1891 Sanders Lisgar F
1901 Saunders Selkirk E
1906 Sanders Selkirk 19
1911 Landers Provencher 49
1916 Sanders Springfield 7