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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: MerseyMan on Sunday 11 December 11 10:25 GMT (UK)
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Hello Rootschatters
After extensive research my into my grandfather's family in Moray, a distant relative passed me some information she had gathered. It says my Gt grandmother Alexina Cameron Smith (nee Payne) had an illegitimate child (my grandfather) John Grant Payne born 5th Oct 1920 at Elgin Poor House. On this information I have received it says the reputed father of my grandfather was a John Grant, a farmer at Knockanbuie who is reported as being deceased in 1924. I cannot find anything out about knockanbuie apart from Knockanbuie is a cottage not a place like I thought. Do any rootschatters with a knowledge of Moray history know anything about Knockanbuie or farmers at knockanbuie who were deceased before 1924 but were alive in 1920. I have info all about my gt grandmother and her family, but her fling with this reputed John Grant farmer at Knockanbuie has left me stuck on finding anything out about this chap.
Many thanks for reading
Barrie
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Hi Barrie
Have you tried searching for Knockanbuie +grant on google? I can see a number of references there with these search criteria. From the first page of results for example:
In 1929 Hugh was employed as 4th Horseman at Orbliston farm. He had previously been employed as a farm servant at Knockanbuie by John Grant who Isabella was first married to.John Grant died and Isabella married Hugh and he became farm manager. Hugh had been wounded in WW1 and took to drink.
Isabella drowned herself and her four children in the Spey River in June 1929 at Fochabers very near Orbliston. I have some photographs taken in the area by a friend a few years ago and would be happy to send copies on to you.
Also, www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/15066/pages/381/page.pdf - first entry, l/h column.
Monica
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Also, if you have not already done so, try a person search on the free Libindx site for Moray folk.
Graham.
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The Hugh McDonald mentioned in the post above is in my family tree. He marred Isabella in October 1924. She was previously married to John Grant of Knockanbuie Farm. Her maiden name was Mackenzie.
If this is the John Grant you are interested in, then if you can find his death certificate on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk you may be able to trace him backwards from there.
Regards
Jean
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Looks like John Grant married Isabella McKenzie in 1921.
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Have you seen this?
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/MORAY/2003-06/1056210223
This http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1396399 might also be of interest.
There's another Knockanbuie at http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NH8452, by the way.
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Hi Forfarian,I wonder if they have the correct parents on that link.They have John's father as William Grant,a soldier but on the marriage I have he is John Grant,a farmer.
1921 15th March marriage at Knockanbuie
John Grant 65 farmer. Parents John Grant farmer and Margaret Grant maiden name Grant.
Isabella McKenzie 25 domestic servant. Parents Neil Campbell general labourer and Elsie Mckenzie.
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If so this would be John aged 5.1861 census Knockanbuie
John Grant 36 born Cromdale farmer of 20 acres arable,30 pasture
Margaret Grant 35 farmers wife born Abernethy Inverness
Anabella 8 daughter born Cromdale
Catherine 6 daughter born Cromdale
John 5 son born Cromdale
Margaret 3 daughter born Cromdale
Marjory 1 daughter born Cromdale
John Grant 18 servant
John McIntosh 16 servant
Jessie Grant 19 servant
Ranold Cameron 25 ag lab
Malcolm Campbell 25 ag lab
By 1871 his acreage has increased to 250.
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I wonder if they have the correct parents on that link.
I don't think they're talking about the same generation. This thread is probably about the one aged 5 in 1861, and the older thread is probably about his father. John, son of William Grant and Sarah Green, was born in 1826.
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Ah,thanks for clearing that up Forfarian,big age gap there,40 years.
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I tried e-mailing the person who posted the older query, but it bounced.
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I see MerseyMan says that John Grant was the reputed father of an illigitimate child in 1920.I wonder if Isabella McKenzie was also in the family way when he married her.She is transcribed as a domestic servant,could she have worked for him.Would have to find a birth to the couple to prove it one way or the other.
A few possible births,one 1921 birth in particular,given the names looks likely.
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John Grant married to Isabella McKenzie died at Grantown on Spey May 12 1924.Usual residence Knockanbuie.No idea where Isabella was but the informant was his sister Catherine.
Interesting that another John Grant died in the same place at the same age,two months before.
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Hi Roostchatter, sorry about the late reply now christmas is over I can concentrate :)
Thanks for the reply MonicaL, I made lots of variations of Google searches of John Grant and Knockanbuie and had the same results as some of the posters here have mentioned. I wasn't sure which John Grant it could have been. :)
GR2 I did a few searches on Libindex but couldn't find anything. As far as I know he was deceased in 1924 when Alexina Cameron Payne was trying to get benefits for her children. Libindex is good as that's where I first started looking and have contributed a bit about my grandad John Grant Payne when I found what happened to him 65 years after he left the family.
If my grandad was the illegitamate son of John Grant (going by his name and the research work that was given to me it probably was). There is probably little or no record confirming this 100% Now if there was a photo of this John Grant I could easily compare it to a photo of my grandad John Grant Payne and see if there is a likeness. I doubt there may have ever been a photo taken of John Grant of Knockanbuie.
Many thanks for your posts to try and pinpoint this John Grant, being illegitamate just means that there is little to no paper trail. :)
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My gg grandfather James Grant was a tenant at Knockanbuie from around 1820 until around 1828. He later emigrated to Australia. Wondering if there is a connection?
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I had a look on LIBINDX, and found that John Grant died at Knockanbuie on 10 April 1911 and Maggie Grant died there in October 1892. Their death certificates should tell you the names of their parents, which will get you back to the 1820s.
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Thanks Forfarian, I see in previous posts John's parents were William Grant and Sarah Green. I will check the births of their other children to see if they were in Knockanbuie at the same time as James. As far as I can work out, James didn't have a brother William so perhaps they were cousins or else just another of the very many Grant families in the area!
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I see in previous posts John's parents were William Grant and Sarah Green.
No, what you saw in this thread was my statement that John, son of William Grant and Sarah Green was born in 1826. Don't take that as definite evidence that it is the same John Grant. There were 837 Grants in the parish of Cromdale Inverallan and Advie in 1841, so there is plenty of scope for getting the wrong one.
FWIW the Grant household at Knockanbuie in 1841 consists of John, 48; Catherine, 44; John, 15; Mary, 11; May, 9; Margaret, 7; and Ann, 5 (from FreeCEN).
At Knockanbuie in 1851 are John Grant, 65; wife Catharine Grant, 57; daughter Marjory Grant, 20; and a lodger.
These both look like the family of John Grant and Katharine McDonald: John, 1825; Mary, 1828; Marjory, 1830; Margaret, 1833; Ann, 1836. (May is often used as short for Marjory.)
Mignon (in the older post on RootsWeb) says there were two couples named William Grant and Sarah Green in Cromdale about the same time. I am sure she has a good reason for saying so, but she must have found something that I have not found in my rather superficial searchings online.
The family of William Grant and Sarah Green (from the 'community indexed' IGI) are Elizabeth, 1812; Charles Lenox, 1814; William, 1816; Sarah, 1818; James, 1820; Francis, 1822; Ann, 1824; John, 1826; Isabella, 1827. FreeCEN lists at High Street, Grantown a household consisting of William, 60, innkeeper; Sarah, 50, born England; William, 25; Sarah, 20; Isabella, 13; Thomas, 9 and 5 servants. I think that this looks like the family of William Grant and Sarah Green.
There is a household of William Grant, 50, dyer with wife Sarah, 55 in Main Street, Grantown with children who match the family of William Grant and Sarah Miller.
There is a third household with William Grant, 60; Sarah, 50; Jane, 40; Ann, 30; and William, 15 at Culinduim. The 1851 clarifies that Jane, 48 and Ann, 40 are the daughters of William Grant, 76; but if the ages are correct Jane cannot be the daughter of Sarah, who is 60, so Sarah has to be a second wife.
I've rambled a bit, but the point is that those are two John Grants of the right age to be the head of the household at Knockanbuie in 1861/1871/1881. One of them was the son of John Grant and Catherine McDonald, who were at Knockanbuie in 1841 and 1851 and the other was the son of William Grant and Sarah Green, who did not live at Knockanbuie.
John Grant in Knockanbuie gives his age in 1861 as 36, in 1871 as 45 and in 1881 as 55. So if he is being accurate he was born between 1824 and 1826.
There are six more John Grants in the parish register of Cromdale Inveralland and Advie baptised between 1824 and 1826. So you must not believe anyone who tells you who 'your' John was when there is a primary source for the information.
You really need those death certificates!
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Advie Burial Ground
ln loving memory of Margaret Grant beloved wife of John Grant farmer Knockanbuie who died 30th Octr 1892 aged 67 years. Also Marjory Ann, daughter of the foresaid who died 27th Janr 1884 aged 23 years. Also in loving memory of our dear father John Grant who died 10 July 1911 aged 87 years. Also John Grant junr died 12th May 1924. Catherine Grant who died 20 May 1927. Annabella Grant daughter of the first said John Grant died 30th Dec 1930.
also
Erected in memory of Allan Grant late farmer in Knockanbuie who died the 11th Sept 1825 aged 80 years. And his wife May MacBain. Their son John Grant who died 6th Nov 1856, aged 68 years. And his wife Catherine MacDonald who died 1st May 1888, aged 95 years. And their grand-daughter Margaret Grant who died 20th Dec 1857, aged 5 years.
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Thanks very much Ghostwhisperer, James did have a brother Allan but he was born in 1784. Perhaps this Allan was an uncle but I have not been able to find the connection. James' parents Charles Grant and Margaret Stuart are also buried in Advie Cemetery