RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: toni* on Thursday 15 December 11 10:03 GMT (UK)
-
Continued from part 8
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=453286.new
So where are we at now?
Annie Susan Cullmer is proving to be a bit of a mystery in regards to her disappearance / death
She married in 1859 to Alfred Urwin
They had a daughter Georgette in I think 1858 if her age from the census is to be believed
Followed by 1860 Alfred James
And in 1866 Rosina Sarah
(was there a daughter Ann / Annie Susan too I think there was)
Sometime in between this there was another daughert Elizabeth Selina although no birth registartiion is found she was baptised 11 May 1866 with Alfred James and Rosina Sarah.
In 1868 banns were read between Alfred Urwin and Sarah Skidmore nee Hudson and they married a year after these banns on 10 May 1869 it appears with the blessing of Annie Susans family as they were witnesses
Alfred & Sarah had more children we can more or less follow all of them through the census to death.
But we can’t find Annie Susans death or any other record other than the christening of Elizabeth Selina
working on the basis that maybe Alfred James might prove to be a clue as in 1871 he is not with his father on the census, in fact we cannot find him in 1871 we followed him forward through the census and found him with his father in 1881, married to Clara Eastop in 1883 and then on the 1901 & 1911 census but NOT 1891
Alfred James had 3 children Alfred John, Clara Susan Violet Nellie and Robert George we can work forward with these although Alfred John did marry in 1904 he is with his parents (as married) in 1911 but no sign of his wife Edith Ellen nee Lonegran and no positive death either.
I think that as Alfred James named his daughter Clara Susan then he must have know his mother was Annie Susan and not Sarah Hudson Skidmore unless of course they just liked the name Susan ?
So we need to find Alfred James in 1871 and 1891
We need to find BMD for Elizabeth Selina
We need to find record of Annie Susan after 1866
can we find Ellen Edith Urwin nee Lonergan in 1911
Sometimes Urwin is recorded as Irwin
Something else just occurred to me, Rosina Sarah was called Rosina Sarah so was her mother Sarah Skidmore? Did she pose as Annie Susan when the children were christened on 11 May 1866?
I wonder how Robert Skidmore died he was hardly cold when banns were read
As banns were read in April 1868 (I think 25th) and Roberts death is recorded as Q2 1868 i.e. April as deaths had to be recorded 5 days after they occurred (now 8 days) so if he died 5 days before 1st April that gives us 26th March so he may have been dead 1 month maximum
-
Clara J Q (daughter of Clara S N V H) i suspect the Q stands for Queenie i cant think of any other names beginning with Q
if she was brought up for by her grandfather Alfred he did work for a newspaper maybe not the actual editor of the Times though, how do we find that out ?
if she was brought up by her grandfather where is she in 1911 ?
-
I found the Claras in 1911 visiting William Gearing 12 Simla St, New Cross , Deptford, London
William Gearing is a married carman aged 38 although there is no wife present.
Clara S N V doesn’t appear to be dancing anymore! She has no occupation
Clara J Q is 5 months old
-
I've found Alfred James in 1891 at 111 Vauxhall St Lambeth, all family present (indexed as Ursin)
RG12/36/7 Pg10
Jan ;)
-
thanks Jan :)
i googled editor of the Times and found this on that wicked encyclopedia !
;)
Ownership
John Walter (1785–1803)
John Walter, 2nd (1803–1847)
John Walter, 3rd (1847–1894)
Arthur Fraser Walter (1894–1908)
Lord Northcliffe (1908–1922)
Astor family (1922–1966)
Roy Thomson (1966–1981)
News International (subsidiary of News Corporation), run by Rupert Murdoch (1981– )
Editorship
John Walter 1785–1803
John Walter, 2nd 1803–1812
John Stoddart 1812–1816
Thomas Barnes 1817–1841
John Delane 1841–1877
Thomas Chenery 1877–1884
George Earle Buckle 1884–1912
George Geoffrey Dawson 1912–1919
Henry Wickham Steed 1919–1922
George Geoffrey Dawson 1923–1941
Robert McGowan Barrington-Ward 1941–1948
William Francis Casey 1948–1952
William Haley 1952–1966
William Rees-Mogg 1967–1981
Harold Evans 1981–1982
Charles Douglas-Home 1982–1985
Charles Wilson 1985–1990
Simon Jenkins 1990–1992
Peter Stothard 1992–2002
Robert Thomson 2002–2007
James Harding 2007–
-
is the 1871 census searchable by household ?
can we search for Alfred J with mother ann / Annie Susan and mayeb Elizabeth Selina?
could Alfred James be with Alfred Urwins parents ?
does anyone have access to the newspapers out of interst to see if there are articles relating to Clara Susan Nellie Violets dancing days ?
and if they do have access to the newspapers can they search for a a missing woman (and child) i.e. Annie Susan (Elizabeth Selina) between 11 May 1866 & 10 May 1869
-
We know from census returns that Alfred jnr. worked in the newspaper industry but on the production side not the editorial side. So I think the 'editor' is wishful thinking or garbled family stories.
-
hi,
May not be important but free bdm has Clara Violet Unwin born in Lambeth September quarter 1895 volme 1d page 496
could be related to:
I've found Alfred James in 1891 at 111 Vauxhall St Lambeth, all family present (indexed as Ursin)
good luck Robyn
-
i dont know if she is related or not but thanks for finding that robyn
I have just breifly looked at William Gearing who Clara is with in 1911
i found him in 1881 & 1891 but not 1901
RG12; 488; 40; 29
RG11; 695; 115; 7
i cant see a connection straight off must just be friends
i wonder where his wife is in 1911 (and who she is )
-
i dont know if some of the 1871 census is missing
which might explain why we cannot find Annie Susan, Alfred James and Elizabeth Selina
-
i dont know if some of the 1871 census is missing
which might explain why we cannot find Annie Susan, Alfred James and Elizabeth Selina
Toni I thought about that the other day but it doesn't look hopeful.
http://www.uk-family-history.com/1871-census.html#What places are missing
-
as Jaywit said to me, if they changed their names we are unlikey to find them. i think this must be the case as we have exhausted all other options.
and the same for Ellen Wheeler / Ingram we also have no death for her just the fact she went to NZ in the guise of a boy a day by the light of the moon before she could be arrested.
-
Morning Toni, in haste:
A while back you asked for my long - shot death registration for Annie Susan Urwin nee Culmer:
1866, Q3, Bethnal Green, Annie Irwin, 47, 1c 289
Annie Susan was baptised at St Mary the Virgin, Dover, on 21 April 1833, so in 1866 she would have been ca 33 years old. The Annie Irwin whose death was registered in Bethnal Green was some 14 years too old.
Must away again - I'll try to pick up the tread on Sunday.
-
3rd Qtr 1866 is possible for a death as we have her in May 1866, now without looking back did Richard Skidmore die in Bethnal Green?
I'm thinking although may be way out, did Richard and Alfred do a wife swap? Was it in fact Sarah saying she was Annie Susan at the mass baptism?
Aceh would that death cert br worthwile getting? Although the age is way out it would be interesting to see exactly what it said.
-
perhaps we could look for a burial for her on the online registers first it may tell us something.
i did wonder if Sarah was posing as Annie Susan at the chirstening but where was Robert at this time what would he say?
and why wait a year until after he died to marry again after having banns read more or less straight away.
I thought that Sarah had a son with Richard, what happened to him?
is he Richard or Robert i have confused myself.
-
I'm losing the plot with the names as well ;D ;D ;D
I think Sarah's husband's death cert plus the Annie who died in Bethnal Green may just help. He could have been ill for a while, in the workhouse maybe?
Also the banns for the wedding that actually took place, you never know there might be a note on the banns.
-
Though there are known problems with the 1871 census according to FindMyPast I have looked on their site, and there seems to be nothing relevant to the London area. See FindMyPast help and advice knowledge base 1871 known issues to get the full detail.
-
is he Richard or Robert i have confused myself.
it's Robert :)
-
I thought that Sarah had a son with Richard, what happened to him?
it was a daughter Mary Susan bp. 2 Aug 1863 St Boltolph
they were living at 15 Skinenr Street and Robert was a cabinet maker
i have found 2 more children bp. 26 June 1867 St Michaels All Angels Shoreditch
Robert & Sarah
Robert senior was a chair maker and they were by now living at 11 James Street
-
Sarah (Ann) Skidmore junior married on Feb 16 1890 to George Frederick Bowry
at St Boltolph
there were no Skimore witnesses or Urwins she signed and her father is given as Robert Skidmore Cabinet maker deceased
-
Spotted this marriage entry on Freebmd:
Jun 1868Qtr - London City 1c 125 - Susannah Urvins or Uwine
Is this worth following up?
-
Spotted this marriage entry on Freebmd:
Jun 1868Qtr - London City 1c 125 - Susannah Urvins or Uwine
Is this worth following up?
it certainly is woth following up thank you
-
I thought that Sarah had a son with Richard, what happened to him?
it was a daughter Mary Susan bp. 2 Aug 1863 St Boltolph
they were living at 15 Skinenr Street and Robert was a cabinet maker
i have found 2 more children bp. 26 June 1867 St Michaels All Angels Shoreditch
Robert & Sarah
Robert senior was a chair maker and they were by now living at 11 James Street
So according to that Sarah and Robert were together in June 1867, so was Annie Susan still around then?
We are closing the gap when Alfred and Sarah got together, only a 9 month period now.
-
yes last recorded sighting of Annie Susan 11 May 1866
Sarah was with Robert in JUne 1867
Robert Died 26th March - 24th April 1868
Banns were read between Alfed & Sarah 25th april 1868, 2nd May & 9th May
they married 10th May 1869
~~~
Spotted this marriage entry on Freebmd:
Jun 1868Qtr - London City 1c 125 - Susannah Urvins or Uwine
Is this worth following up?
William Henry Jackson m. Susannah Urwins hard to read both of full age but her father was John Peter Urwins a farmer
-
Toni What about a list of all the known children of
a) Alfred/ Annie Susan
b) Robert/ Sarah
c) Alfred/Sarah
And what we know about them.
-
One thought that has occurred to me while reading this is that I have found the London banns on ancestry to be indexed incorrectly - I have found the year and sometimes church on the index not to always match what is on the actual image. Sometimes if the vicar put a year on one banns entry and then when January came around if he didn't put the new year against the first banns of that year on ancestry they are indexed as the previous year.
I don't have a sub any more but it might b worth re-looking at the banns and just checking they really are 1868 and not 1869 indexed incorrectly. You might have to trawl through the banns to check where 1868 and 1869 start to check which year the banns are really in.
-
Yes Hazel they are wrongly indexed and are actually for 1869 :)
They follow on from St James marriages but there is nothing to indicate which church the banns are for.
Jan ;)
-
Well at least it looks like Sarah didn't get re-married in such a hurry but it does widen the window in which they met up by a year.
-
oh another year ::)
and the banns werent necessarily at St james but could have been St John whee they got married
-
a) Alfred/ Annie Susan
Georgette 1858
Alfred James 1860 (followed him through census to death plus have wife / childrens details)
Ann Susan 1863
Elizabeth Selina christened 11 May 1866 with Alfred James and Rosina Sarah
Rosina Sarah 1866
b) Robert/ Sarah
Mary Susan 1863 }
Robert 1866 / 67}
Sarah Ann 1867 / 68 } i have not followed these on the census but i found Sarah Anns marriage
c) Alfred/Sarah
Richard 1870 (found his marriage)
Emma 1874
~~~
i found Alfred Urwin (senior) in 1851
HO107; 1495; 347; 76
-
oh another year ::)
and the banns werent necessarily at St james but could have been St John whee they got married
I've just looked through and there are actually two sets of banns following the St James' marriages, no indication of church but they can't both be St James :) So highly likely the second set are for St John.
Jan ;)
-
Georgette Urwin b. 1858 with mother in 1861 with father in 1871
1881 with Rosina Osborn as sister Georgette Cullmer
married under the name of Cullmer in 1888 to Noble Edwin Smith
gives her father was william Cullmer - maybe she fell out with Aflred Urwin
she does appear to be born before Annie Susan Cullmers marriage to Alfred Urwin (1859)
i think we can pretty much follow her ok.
~~
did you notice there was a Georgette Cullmer b. 1888 Chelsea
~~
Rosina Sarah Urwin marries Isaac William Osborn using the name Cullmer in 1879
~~
Annie Susan jnr was actually born in 1862 not 1863
she marries George William Carter (transcribed as Cartle) in 18 Nov 1888
-
Mary Susan Skidmore
i found her christening & birth reg in 1863
no apparent death she is not with Sarah in 1871
i did however find a MAry Skidmore aged 10 in 1871 with mother Mary and sister Emma
i wonder if Mary Skidmore senior s a sister of Robert Skidmore ?
someone has submitted changes and
Mary Skidmore senior is aka Mary Frances Pike (which would not make her a sister to Robert)
Mary Skidmore junior is also given as Mary Susan Skidmore
and Emma as Emma Frances Skidmore
just to confuse you slightly
there is a Mary Susanna Urwin married to a Smith Urwin from the 1891 census onwards
her y.o.b ties in with our MAry but her p.o.b is different (Northumberland) her detah s registred as Q1 1941 in Northumberland
i would say the first Mary needs investigating and the 2nd mary is unlikely to be ours.
-
there is a Robert Skidmore b. 1866 Finsbury on the 1901 census
RG13; : 258; 79; 39.
i dont as yet know that this is 'our' Robert
he is with Alfred & Sarah in 1881 under the name Urwin p.o.b Shoreditch
RG11; 364; : 32; 56
i suspect that the enumartor asked for relationship and they said son hence the name Urwin is listed and not Skidmore
-
Sarah Ann Skidmore is with Alfred & Sarah in 1871 & 1881 and married in 1890 to George George Frederick Bowry
1891 with George & daughter Violet Maud aged 4 months
: RG12; 230; 106; 41
and 1901
RG13; : 182; 106; 62.
they seemed to have gained a duaghter Amy R (aged 16) i guess she is from a previous marriage of Georges not actually investigated this.
-
a couple of children for Sarah Ann & George Frederick
George Frederick Bowry b. Nov 25th christened 24 Dec 1893 St Botolph without Bishopsgate
Violet Maud Bowry b. 10th Dec 1890 christened 24 Dec 1893 St Botolph without Bishopsgate
-
Richard Urwin we know from before married Eliza Spiller and they had several children i have found him on the 1911 census at 22 Clarendon St, St Pancras, Somers Town
it says they had 6 children 6 living and 1 died i think they have tried to change the first 6 into a 7
Richard & Eliza had been married 17 years
which is correct 13 May 1894 St Botolph without Bishopsgate
Florrie
Amy
Nellie
Pheobe
Dorothy
Richard
this is possibly his death
Name: Richard Urwin
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1924
Age at Death: 54
Registration district: Hackney
Volume: 1b
Page: 412
-
what do you think of this 1891 census ?
RG12; 232; 42; 13
34 Central Street St Lukes
-
It looks like Sarah nee Skidmore. I assume Richard or Emma filled the form in as Sarah is listed as Mother.
Jan ;)
-
It looks like Sarah nee Skidmore. I assume Richard or Emma filled the form in as Sarah is listed as Mother.
Jan ;)
and no relation to the Seymours
-
It looks like Sarah nee Skidmore. I assume Richard or Emma filled the form in as Sarah is listed as Mother.
Jan ;)
and no relation to the Seymours
Could be - they seem to be in the same house but separate household to me - so difficult to say. Is Seymour a name that has occurred?
Jan ;)
-
Not sure whether this has been mentioned (furtively doing this whilst meant to be teaching a class!) but there is a birth for an Annie Jane Urwin in Sept qtr 1865, Shoreditch. Can't find (at the moment) further trace of her, but will keep looking to see if she fits in to any of our Urwins.
-
Hi everyone.
With FreeBMD I've checked the whole UK 1862 - 1933 for the death of:
Annie Susan / Annie / Susan
Urwin / Irwin / Cullmer / Culmer / Unwin
Nothing I could find in anywhere near the right time-frame, except:
Q1 1912 Southwark, Susan Unwin, 74, 1d 125 (she would have been born ca 1831 whereas Annie Susan Cullmer was baptised at Dover in 1833). Worth a look?
I also Googled her as a missing person, but only websites for present-day hunts for missing persons came up. If she was in an asylum / prison / convent etc she would have been picked up on a census.
-
it might be worth finding susan unwin on the 1911 census ;)
-
Hi everyone.
With FreeBMD I've checked the whole UK 1862 - 1933 for the death of:
Annie Susan / Annie / Susan
Urwin / Irwin / Cullmer / Culmer / Unwin
Nothing I could find in anywhere near the right time-frame, except:
Q1 1912 Southwark, Susan Unwin, 74, 1d 125 (she would have been born ca 1831 whereas Annie Susan Cullmer was baptised at Dover in 1833). Worth a look?
I also Googled her as a missing person, but only websites for present-day hunts for missing persons came up. If she was in an asylum / prison / convent etc she would have been picked up on a census.
I think we found this before but I can't remember what conclusion we came to.
In 1911 Alfred jnr. was living in Southwark reg district, but where was a Susan???
-
The only candidate I can see for the Susan Unwin dying age 74 in 1912 is always Unwin and gives her birthplace on censuses as Quendon Essex - a widow by 1901 she is previously married to Alfred Unwin living in Camberwell. So not Annie Susan.
Jan ;)
-
well if she didn't die then she must have gone abroad under a pseudonym or her own name she may simply be listed as Mrs Urwin / Irwin
but i think she would show up on the US census or Austrialian records if she used her own name she may have gone to New Zealand or India in fact she could have gone anywhere?
I don't think Seymour is a name we have come across before.
-
well if she didn't die then she must have gone abroad under a pseudonym or her own name she may simply be listed as Mrs Urwin / Irwin
but i think she would show up on the US census or Austrialian records if she used her own name she may have gone to New Zealand or India in fact she could have gone anywhere?
I don't think Seymour is a name we have come across before.
She could also have remained in the UK but under a different name ::)
Jan ;)
-
yes i didnt think of that :)
there is only one thing that bugs me and that is that Annie Susans family obviously approved of Alfred Urwins remarriage so she had therefore , i assume, lost contact with them / fallen out of favour with them / disappeared.
another thing is that later Georgette and Rosina use the name Cullmer and not Urwin to marry.
Now Georgette i understand she was at least 8 when her mother disappeared and would have remembered her and may not have got on with Sarah Skidmore Hudson and thus used the name Cullmer her mmn. but Rosina was only a baby b. 1866 Mother disappeared 1866 - April 1869
would she really remember her mother ?
she obviously looked up to her big sister Georgette
-
hi,
I considered the possibility that Annie Susan might have left her husband and taken up with someone else, possibly emigrated and died under his name either in the UK or overseas.
But of course the presence of her family at his second marriage would seem to put an end to that consideration, unless of course she was disowned by them for something she may have done (unlikely of course).
Of course there is also the possibilty that her surname at death has been dreadfully transcribed not resembling any of teh possible names you have been looking at.
I will continue to think and search for Annie Susan
Robyn
-
it also occured to me that Annie Susan may have remarried and had a different surname but still she would have had the name Annie Susan. and may have had little Elizabeth Selina with her for whom i cannot find abirth
maybe she was registered under femal ?
is there anyway to search for a death for Annie Susan with a birth year of 1835 ? remember that after 1866 ages were given so what if she died giving bith to Rosina Sarah (christened 11 May 1866)
another question because she is recorded as the childrens mother at their christening does this mean she was actually present ?
and one more thing Georgette Urwin was born 1858 and i think that Annie Susan and Alfred married in 1859 so is Georgettes father not Alfred then ?
-
I was in town today so this afternoon I visited the LMA seeking properly to dispatch Annie Susan:
1. Workhouse & Workhouse infirmary records - apparently the LMA's records don't start until around 10 years after we need them.
2. Outer London cemeteries - by the 1860s all of the London church yards were full of course. Records not held by the LMA - one has to go to the actual cemetery and beg to be able to check its mouldering unindexed ledgers! Not on line as far as the LMA knows.
:(
-
Toni,
Annie Susan was baptised (along with her elder brother George Isaac) in 1833. It was Alfred, who from census data, appears to have been born in 1835. I can find no baptism record in Dover for him and of course they are all before BMD registration was introduced.
-
does any one know if their are records for the London Road-car Company ?
i found this on google
http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications6/horse-01.htm
a bit about horses in London where it mentions it but i was looking for actual records
as thats where Warren worked
-
Hi everyone :)
I've been searching around for Annie Susan b 1833 Dover.
In 1861 she is in Shoreditch with children ...found this death .. right place
Ann/a Irvine
bc 1832 36yrs
d Sep q 1868
Shoreditch, London
1c 105
will keep looking
deb
-
i did get a certificate but it wasfor the wrong Ann/ie Irwin /irvin it could have been that one
-
The London Road Car Company gets a mention here
http://www.ltmcollection.org/resources/index.html?IXglossary=Public+transport+in+Victorian+London%3A+Part+One%3A+Overground
so it might be worth contacting the museum
Jan ;)
There is quite a bit about them here
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Omnibuses_and_Cabs/Part_I/Chapter_IX
A few records come up if you search the National Archives although they don't look like employment records which is what I imagine you are looking for.
-
thanks Janan
:)
added:
they are very helpful
The company was set up in 1878 and changed its name on april 7 1881
in the 1881 census Warren was at 110 Chippenham Road and was a bus driver
at his trial in 9 Feb 1891 he was said to work for the London Road Car-Company as an omnibus driver and whilst 'in nick' in 1891 he is recorded as a bus driver
i cannot find him after the 1891 census until his death in 1934 in Islington :-\
-
Hi Toni
Went back through the posts and saw that Aceh gave you this possible death:
1866, Q3, Bethnal Green, Annie Irwin, 47, 1c 289
Not sure if this is the one you ordered.
The one I found was in Shoreditch where they had been living; also the age fits as I recall seeing somewhere that she was baptised circa 1833. From Aceh: Annie Susan was baptised (along with her elder brother George Isaac) in 1833 .
Ann/a Irvine
bc 1832 36yrs
d Sep q 1868
Shoreditch, London
When and where was Elizabeth Selina born?
deb
-
i dont have the details with me i'm pretty certain it was a Shoreditch death i ordered
as much as i would like to fill in all the gaps and kill evrybody off some things i think are going to remain a mystery and it is Warren that connects me to the gang and it is him i would really like to concentrate on for now
i can't find him from after his spell in Wandsworth in 1891 (1892 he as sentenced to 12 months hard labour) until his death in Islington in 1934.
:-\
-
i have found him in 1901 (i think perhaps we had found him earlier)
he is lodging with Susannah Smith in Clerkenwell and is a carman (51 Whiskin Street)
he says he is single and is aged 36 (9 years younger than he was)
i guess after Ellen absconded if there had been no contact for 7 years then legally he was allowed to marry again and therefore classed as single
the rules regarding this i am not fully aware of but it is something along those lines and after 7 years i do know that if there is no contact / active signs of life then they can be declared dead
RG13; 255; 84; 37.
-
found Susannah in 1911 and Warren is not with her
she is still at 51 Whiskin Street and her occupation in 'need work'
her p.o.b is given as Houndsditch City so i think i have found her in 1891 to with her husband David b. Ipswich where her p.o.b is just given as City.
in any case i dont think she is connected to the Culmers / Ingrams etc i think Warren was literally a boarder in 1901 and by 1911 she had run out of money (did he fleece her :o )
she had 3 rooms - could she have taken in boarders / lodgers ?
she had no children - none at all living or deceased.
-
is any of the 1911 census missing ?
-
Hi Toni
Can you give me Warren's details ...I'm sorry I haven't read the other parts og your scavenger hunt so I have no idea who he is .... :-\
Or just give me links as to where I can find his details on the threads.
deb
-
Warren Ingram b.1857 Belton (Allexton) rutland
in 1861 with his parents in Rutland by 1871 the family had moved to Essex where John was running a pub
Warren was with them but he had no occupation and was not at school.
at some point he moved to London
by 1881 he was at 110 Chippenham road working as a bus driver for the newly set up London Road-car company
he was in with the Culmers by 1886 here is his trial :
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-227-18910209&div=t18910209-227#highlight
(if the link doesnt work search the old bailey online proceedings surname Ingram forename warren he is the only one)
in 1890 he married Ellen Culmer nee Wheeler - although Ellen and Alfred never actually married.
their address is given as 22 Church Street
he gives his occupation as a confectioner - the occupation of his brother,his father John is still living and a licensed victuallr we know he is a publican.
the witnesses were Thomas Trew and his wife Sarah.
Ellen father has by now died, we have his details
in 1891 Warren was in HMP Wandsworth having been sentenced to a years (12 months) hard labour for his part in the fire / insurance scam.
and we now have Warren with Susannah Smith in 1901 at 51 Whiskin Road.
warren died in 1934 in islington
there are some loose ends namely Annie Susan, also Jenny /Jane Culmer and Warren after 1901 until his death in 1934 also Ellen after 1913 in New Zealand no more news of her.
:-\
-
Warren is on the electoral rolls for Islington 1929-33
Jan ;)
-
thanks Jan
does it give his address ?
-
4 Alfred St
He appears to be lodging with a John and Ada Hansing plus various others
Jan ;)
-
thank you , no Ingrams or Culmers
-
No and no other names that rang any bells
Jan ;)
-
George Culmer shows in 1890 at 4 Tottenham Square Hackney
-
Alfred Street is now Elia Street
-
Hi Toni,
Just back from sunny Sicily.
George Culmer shows in 1890 at 4 Tottenham Square Hackney
This George was almost certainly one of the brush maker Culmers with no connection to Alfred, George et al.
As for loose ends did we ever get BMD & census details for all those Whiteheads? I've a feeling these were either already known or were being checked out when I joined the hunt. If so could you suggest in which Part might I find them?
Must do a pukka job now that I'm uploading all of my data onto my new Family Historian 5!
-
yes we did follow up the Whiteheads but they werent actually related to the Culmers as far as i can remember
-
Hello
I am finding this new RC a little strange however from Part 1 :
this case mentions Mrs Culmer of Lower road Islington its dated 10th JUne 1844
1582. WILLIAM BURTON NEWENHAM was indicted for unlawfully taking Frances Louisa Wortham, a girl under 16 years of age, out of the possession, and against the will of Jane Wortham, her mother.
i have literally just got the case up on my computer and have found that he was up before the dock once before this time as a vicitim
WILLIAM BURTON NEWENHAM, victim name in trial of WILLIAM COVENEY, Theft > pocketpicking, 2nd January 1837.
393. WILLIAM COVENEY was indicted for stealing, on the 2nd of December, at St. James, Westminster, 1 �100 Bank note, and 1 �50 Bank note, the property of William Burton Newenham, from his person. MR. CLARKSON conducted the Prosecution. WILLIAM BURTON N...
-
I can't get on to oldbaileyonline at the moment, so I can't check what part Mrs Culmer had to play in the court case. However, I had a quick rummage at stuff for WBN - did you know that he and Frances had a daughter, Fanny Louisa, bn Aug 7 1844 and baptised 1 Nov 1844? And that it appears he was previously married in Dublin in 1830!
Frances disappears for a while, and then can be found remarrying in Dublin in 1857.
-
I can't see what part Mrs Culmer had to play either she was however of Lower Street Islington :-\
Spidermonkey in part 1 there were some PDF from the Times online which you couldn't send us, you may be able to attach them now on this new version of RC or post links to the PDF pages :-\
-
i was not aware of any daughter between WBN and Fanny Louisa Wrotham is it Wrotham or Wortham ? either way i think this was only brought up in part 1 because it mentions Mrs Culmer of Lower Road Islington AND also (can you grammatically say and also in the same sentence?) Alfred Culmer senior first conviction was for 'kidnapping'of an underage girl.
When Mrs Wortham was cross examined by the defence she says :
Q. Except that, have you not been entirely dependant upon Mr. Newenham? A. But I was not dependant upon Mr. Newenham until the property came—my subsistence did not depend upon him till the property came—I cannot tell how much money he has lent me altogether—I have got an account at home—he gave me a gold watch—I do not know whether it was a new one—he gave it me about a fortnight before he took the child away—I know Mrs. Culmer, of Lower-road, Islington—I told her that the prisoner was my brother-in-law—I never permitted my daughter to go to the theatre alone with Mr. Newenham—I do not remember it, it might have happened and I forget it—I never told a Mrs. Rose or Mrs. Orme that my daughter considered she was engaged to Mr. Newenham, or anything to that effect, or that she intended to marry him, and that her father on his death-bed said to the prisoner, "I suppose you do not think of Fanny, though she would make you a good wife"—I never said anything of the sort to either of them—the apprehension of the prisoner and my daughter was not the result of any stratagem arranged between myself and anybody else—there was no stratagem used at all—I knew where to find my daughter, because I was told where she was going to—I was there myself—I had the direction given to me by Mr. Southie—I was no party to any appointment being made with them for the purpose of having a professional arrangement of the property, and I am sure Mr. Southie never did any such thing—I never said I would make any such arrangement—it was done by me to know what my child's sentiments were—I did not know Mr. Newenham was in the house at the time—it was a house in Carlisle-street, Soho, where they were found—it was not in consequence of an appointment made to arrange the property and settle the matter—I never heard of any such thing—I knew that my child was to be seen that night—my attorney was to see her, by an appointment that was made with Mr. Newenham—I was not present when that appointment was made (looking at a letter)—I do not know whether I received this letter from my daughter whilst she was at the school at Stockwell—it is her writing—I could not swear that I received it—I think I did.
-
I don't know why they would refer to Mrs. Culmer there is no mention of her before when she was cross examined.
I see that Mrs Wortham told Mrs Culmer that Mr Newenham was her brother in law - wonder why she would say that ?
-
One question for you. We assume that they had a meeting place and we also assumed this was a pub however I am now not so sure that it was a pub unless they went into the ‘back room’ because would a bunch of criminals meet openly where they could be overheard discussing their crimes / or plans?
We know that AML father owned a pub but more than likely that was copycat crime and it was Jenney Onkens father Henry that owned the pub.
Would Henry however be pleased his daughter had got mixed up with these type of people and allow his premises to be used in this way? Was Henry oblivious to their crimes?
-
A question for you all but particularly ACEH - Is Mrs. Culmer of Lower Road Islington one of ours?
-
It appears George Culmer did not like Warren (his quote step father unquote) and was moaning about the delay in getting the funds through but Ellen wasn’t going to be pushed around so instead of giving the money to George she went on a trip to Paris!
Are there records of journeys to Paris ?
How would she have gotten there? train to Dover then boat to Calais and train to Paris ?
-
Dover to Calais or Newhaven to Dieppe would seem most likely routes to me but I've no idea whether passenger lists survive - when would this have been? Would she have been travelling as Ellen Ingram anyway :D
Re your earlier post about the court case, I cannot work out why Mrs Culmer gets a mention at all, very strange!!
Jan ;)
-
i think if this Mrs Culmer is connected it would be Annie Gardener Coles if anyone ?
this is 1844
When Ellen went to Paris this would be 1890 / 1891 definitley after the death of Alfred in i think (from memory) 1888
i don't know if she went alone or took Warren with her
We know that Warren Ingram was 'tried' for mansluaghter 23 June 1890 but the Bill was ignored- presumably due to lack of evidence.
I wonder if there is a way to find out who was apparently manslaughtered !
or did we check this already - we may have done and i vaugely rememebr it was an accident with the omnibus he was driving knocked down and killed someone or 2 people who stepped out in the road in front of him. - ah yes its all coming back to me now!
ignore that last bit then !
PS there is no reason to suggest she didnt use the name Ellen Ingram when she went to Paris
-
i keep having little bursts at making sense of this - it does all make sense in my head but putting it on paper is proving difficult
Alfred Urwin - Annie Susan husband
was in Lewes Prison in 1861
do we know / can we find out why ?
Lewes Prison was only built in 1853
-
There is a report in the Morning Post of 7 Oct 1859 of 3 "determined-looking thieves" namely Thomas Mahoney, Alfred Irwin and John Day alias Driscoll being sent before a judge accused of stealing 3 watches from passengers at Crystal Palace railway station. They are remanded for a week, so it is unlikely that it was for this offence that Alfred Irwin/Urwin was in prison but it might indicate that his name was known!
Incidentally, it was alleged that John Day/Driscoll "was a member of a gang of the most desparate thieves in the metropolis, known as the "Field-Lane gang""
-
Actually, looking at the criminal registers on ancestry, it looks as the 3 of them were later sentenced to 12 calender months of hard labour so perhaps this was the reason he was in prison :-\
-
thanks Spidermonkey - it doesnt look as if he was tried at the Old Bailey at least i couldnt spot him
-
George Culmer wasn't very nice he threatened to 'do for his mother' with a hammer 4 days after she went off to Paris
Frederick Whitehead was ALfred Culmers nephew well step nephew
-
Morning all & happy new Year!
1844, that's a bit early.
To be "one of ours" the only Mrs Culmer who would qualify would be Alfred's presumed mother, Annie Culmer, nee Cole, born 24 December 1805 and baptised Bodicote Oxfordshire on 5 January 1806. It is believed that she was the bride of Edward Cullmer, carpenter, baptised St Mary the Virgin, Dover, Kent on 19 September 1810, at his marriage at All Souls Langham Place, Marylebone on 19 April 1830.
The first sighting of this couple post marriage is the 1841 census (HO107/701, Book 6, page11) at Salmon's Lane, Limehouse. Four children, Mary aged 12, George [Isaac] aged 9, [Annie] Susan aged 8 and Alfred aged 6, all born outside the county of Middlesex, were also included.
Edward Cullmer, father of Alfred and his siblings, died at "The Tap, Bull & Mouth Street, London" of "Typhus Fever 14 days Certified" on 6 March 1849. His wife Annie, her daughter Annie Susan and her unmarried [half] sister Lucy Cole, all recorded as Needlewomen, are found living together at Bartholomew Close, City of London, in the 1851 census ( HO107/1526, folio 26, page 44). At this time Annie's son George Isaac is found lodging close by and Alfred is a Draper's assistant in Dover. Elder daughter Mary is believed to have been in service in Marylebone.
So, this is the background of "our Mrs Culmer". In 1844 Annie is married with 4 children, the eldest, Mary, being around 15 and our Alfred being around 9 years old. I tried yesterday to get into the Old Bailey site but without success.
If this is a sighting of Annie Cullmer then this would be new information for me. However, with the address being in Islington, my gut feeling is that this may be one of the brush maker Culmers but I will check this out and report back.
Does the witness Mrs Culmer give her husband's occupation to the court? if so this would likely settle the matter.
-
Dover to Calais or Newhaven to Dieppe would seem most likely routes to me but I've no idea whether passenger lists survive - when would this have been? Would she have been travelling as Ellen Ingram anyway :D
Re your earlier post about the court case, I cannot work out why Mrs Culmer gets a mention at all, very strange!!
Jan ;)
1880s pre passports and given the amount of traffic it is most unlikely there were ever any passenger lists. I imagine that all that would be shown would be a valid ticket for the appropriate part of the journey.
-
Toni,
Re the identity of Old Bailey witness Mrs Culmer, I find that I have recorded no "brush maker Culmers" living in Islington around 1844 although some were living there in later Victorian times. So the witness Mrs Culmer may well have been Annie Gardner Cole but we need more info on the witness such as age or husband's occupation. Annie's husband Edward was a carpenter so a trade directory for 1844 may show him.
-
The only reference to Mrs Culmer is when Mrs Wortham is being crossed examined
Mrs Wortham says she knows Mrs Culmer of Lower Road Islington and that she told her the defendant was her Brother in Law. that is it. if Mrs Culmer gave evidence it is not recorded.
I wonder why Mrs Wortham would say that Newenham was her Brother in Law when he wasn't. it was obvious that her husband had died and that Newenham was her lodger before her husband had died, maybe it was to keep up appearances, but it does seem,from the trial, that Mrs Wortham had borrowed some monies of Newenham and maybe this is why she said he was her brother in law. ? You are right I should consult the street directories to see if there are Culmers at Lower Road Islington in 1844.
-
back in part 4 we discovered that Thomas Francklin Master Mariner father of Ellen Wheeler nee Francklin left a will at the TNA if someone could kindly find me the link (as i can't see for looking) i will download it.
many thanks :)
-
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D268922
-
The last will and testament of Thomas Francklin of York Square Stepney Master Mariner i give and bequeath unto my dear wife Sophia Francklin all my property consisting of ................ some it is not clear although the writing is very neat! maybe he should have been a doctor instead of a master mariner !
It mentions his vessel known as the Brig Eden
basically he leaves all of his effects and household furniture etc whether on board his vessel or in his house to this wife Sophia who he appoints as executor and the other executor is his dear friend Thomas Thornton
on this 16 day of September 1839
Thomas Francklin signed as did Thomas Thornton of 31 Great Carter Lane and H.m. Rapier of Honduras Terrace
i am not sure if Thomas Thornton therefore witnessed the will as well as executor i didn't think that was allowed.
-
Morning Toni.
So what happened to the money? In one generation Thomas & Sophia's daughter Ellen Elizabeth is involved, through her daughter of the same name, with the Cullmer arsonist gang and ends up at age 70 being sent down at the Bailey for 5 years!
-
it appears everything was left to Sophia so who knows what she did with money i can make a list of possibles i.e. maybe she paid someone to look after her children, maybe she had to pay off the mortgage of her house maybe she squandered it all away - when did she die? she didnt marry again as far as i can remember i am sure we followed her on the census however it might do to juat look to see where she was living again and to see whether she was living on her own means.
Thomas Thornton intrigues me as it does appear he is a witness as well as an executor and you couldn't (or at least i dont beleive you can) witness the will if you are mentioned within it. did he keep some of the effects himself ?
At least we know where the alias Thornton came from.
i wonder who is H . m. Rapier - thats Big H little M Rapier of Honduras Terrace
-
so from an earlier part of this saga (probably part 4)
All baptised to Thomas & Sophia Francklin, St Anne, Limehouse; living in Limehouse; Thomas was a (master) mariner.
Mary Ann born 20/3/1819
Ellen Elizabeth born 29/5/1822
Emily born 26/8/1823
John Alexander born 11/8/1825
Frederic born 8/7/1827
Isabel born 7/3/1832
Charles Thornton born 29/8/1834
St Annes is the church which would be covered by York Square as this is served by Limehouse station.
1841 Census
HO107 721 22 11 17
?Need Lane, St Martin, Ludgate
Sophia 45 Brush m;
Mary Ann 20
Charles 4
1851 Census
HO 107 1506 84 59
13 Urban Place, Hackney
Sophia 57 Annuitant; b Sevenoaks, Kent
Emily 27 Dau; Toothbrush maker ;D ;D b Limehouse
Charles 16 Son; Errand boy; b Limehouse
William 2 Grdson; b Bethnal Green
i've just noticed something Charles Francklin was living at Clyde Road Tottenham from 1881-1901 (inc.) in 1890 George Culmer had a fire at (12) CLyde Road Tottenham - this is well off any main road and not a name of a road you would know off the top of your head, however FWW said that George Culmer had a fire at Charles Street Tottenham - which we couldnt locate . Maybe it was Charles Francklin house (it was 7 rooms) and thus the confusion arose re Clyde & Charles. but does this mean then that Charles Francklin was involved too or his sister thought she would make him a pretty penny quick if he had run into financial difficulty.
-
May be someone else of course, but a Sophia Franklin 45 was imprisoned for 1 yr in Dec 1835 for recieving stolen goods.
Jan ;)
There is a death for a Sophia Francklin 78 Edmonton Jan-feb-Mar 1871
or Sophia Franklin 78 Islington 1870
-
Can't find a H m Rapier on Honduras Terrace in 1841. The closest I can get is a Wm Rayner (trying to think how handwriting could be read differently) who is a mariner.
HO107/712/15/6
-
so from an earlier part of this saga (probably part 4)
All baptised to Thomas & Sophia Francklin, St Anne, Limehouse; living in Limehouse; Thomas was a (master) mariner.
Mary Ann born 20/3/1819
Ellen Elizabeth born 29/5/1822
Emily born 26/8/1823
John Alexander born 11/8/1825
Frederic born 8/7/1827
Isabel born 7/3/1832
Charles Thornton born 29/8/1834
From London Standard 25 July 1842
July 21st at St Dunstans, Mr William Davies of Liverpool married Mary Ann eldest daughter of the late Captain Francklin of Limehouse
-
Wm Rayner could be a match I will try and crop the image and post it on here
Thanks for those deaths Jan I wonder if Sophia left a will.
-
Charles Onken (- father of Henry - Grandfather of Jane / Jenney OR brother of Henry uncle of Jane / Jenney )
Effects under £4,000.
13 Jan 1863
The Will of Charles Onken late of South Place Finsbury in the City of London Coach Builder deceased who died 14 November 1862 at South Place aforesaid was proved at the Principal Registery by the oaths of Elizabeth Onken of South Place aforesaid widow the relict and JOhn Robert Foulger of 1 Moor Lane in the said City Inspector of Police two of the executors
-
having not brought certificates for a while, are they still £9.25 ?
-
Not sure Toni.
Just had a look at the historic newspapers on FindMyPast for Charles Onken. Looks like he was made bankrupt in 1855. Also there is a marriage reported in Leicester Chronicle (20 Aug 1887) between Charles Edward Onken, son of late Charles Onken of Finsbury, and Lydia Ray. Marriage took place 10 Aug at St Margaret's, Leicester
-
Other bits and bobs
London standard, 8 Aug 1881
Death
Onken - July 24, Elizabeth, widow of Charles of South Place, Finsbury, aged 61
-
from the information obtained at LMA (and part 7 & Part 8 )
T Thornton Linen Draper
now cause in 2 cases is gas and 2 cases unknown but fires start it would seem in shop window as this was the area of most destruction - not a trait of our gang however Thornton was an alias of theirs.
24 & 25 London Terrace Hackney Rd 11.11.1857
272 Hackney Rd 4.3.1863
242 kentish town rd .8.3.1866
6.2.1870 same place
this must be Thomas Thornton the dear friend of Thomas Francklin :) or some relation surely
-
i can't seem to crop the will image :-\
-
Again from Part 8
1861 Thomas Thornton Linen Draper. living London Terrace. RG9/251/113/5
Born Bristol, so I don't think he is connected.
do we have a thinking smiley ? hmmmmmmmmmm
Also i don't think we found Ellen Francklin death
born 1822
possibly in the missing females in wormwood scrubs in 1891 nothing after that
-
I am sure you know this Toni, but there may be others that don't; Queenie was often used as a diminutive version of Victoria after the then Queen.
-
reading through the last parts the death cert i ordered for Annie Urwin was the 1912 one which was not ours so i need to get the 1868 Shorediitch one WHEN i have some money ::)
-
Hi Toni,
From previous discussions I have:
Ellen Elizabeth Wheeler nee Franklin born ca 1821; died Q1 1908 Richmond Surrey
or was this subsequently disproved?
-
Alan thanks for that as far as i know that hasn't been disproved and i must have skipped over it when rereading
We assume she was in Wormwood Scrubs in the missing females in 1891
did we ever find her in 1901 ?
-
Morning Toni,
Young George Cullmer was sent to the Scrubs as found in the 1891 census, and thence to the stone quarries at Portland prison where he died the following year of kidney disease. However I don't know about Ellen Wheeler - was there a women's wing there? I would have thought Holloway was more likely.
-
Alan this is what we found earlier :
I think I may have cracked where Ellen was in 1891 and why we can't find her. Wormwood Scrubs prison. Looking at the pages some are damaged and on the NA website it says...Pages 40-44 MISSING after fo 161 (125 females)
-
excellent http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/814.htm
have found Ellen senior and Warren on here but unable to view record as no sub however as soon as i start maternity leave i will do the free 14 day trial :)
-
•Calendar of Prisoners in Home Office records 1868-1929 (HO 140)
•After trial calendars of prisoners from the Central criminal court between 1855-1931 (CRIM 9)
Culmer George CRIM9
Culmer Frederick William CRIM9
Culmer George Merionethshire HO140
Ingram Warren - CRIM9
Ingram Warren - 1890 Middlesex HO140
Ingram Warren 1891 Merionethshire HO140
Ellen Wheeler Crim9 & HO140
-
having seen the images of what i posted above its very good it gives dates arrested what for and trial dates and remanded in custody etc and also names other people invovled so when you view Warren Ingram you get the others indicted with him.
sadly no photographs but hey ho.
i am sure this will throw up more queries for anyone thats still on board with this.
-
All Southwark Police Court
Thomas George Trew aged 47 French Polisher arrested 7th Nov 1890
George Cullmer aged 25 Dealer arrested ditto
Warren Ingram aged 33 Bus Driver arrested 22nd Nov
Richard Capsey 30 Plasterer 28th Nov
George Loveday 44 Carpenter 2nd Dec
Ellen Wheeler 70 no occupation 3rd Dec
-
Well done Toni!
Was there by any chance anything regarding those seemingly implicated but not arrested? I'm thinking mainly of Ellen Wheeler Jr of course, but also perhaps of Alfred Cullmer Jr, although Alfred's involvement in the "Fire Business", if any, would have been before he emigrated to Australia with his wife Eleanor in the early 1880s, so probably would not have been included.
I've made no progress on Alfred Jr in Australia due to non-availability of census data.
It's a pity there are no photos - the only Culmer photos I have are 2 of my great grandmother Rosina, both undated.
-
no nothing as far as i could see
Alfred Jnr was the correspondent in Australia we now know
i see Frederick William Cullmer was also arrested i have not seen the image - is this George brother we do seem to lose track of him.
There wasn't anything either for Frederick Whitehead which seems strange as i thought he was arested but turned informant
-
Trew Culmer Ingram and Ellen Wheeler were all found guilty
Capsey & Loveday not guilty but were to be tried for misdemenaour at the next session
-
Ellen Ingram appears separately from the others
Jan ;)
-
so she does now why didnt i spot her ? she should have been one of the first ones i looked for.
I cant actually view the image though so i have no idea what it says ::)
-
Edward Fish also appears on the FindMyPast database - he took up with Daisy after she left Freddy
Fish Edward b. 1870 year 1890 London HO140 (how confusing its like the early census numbers)
Fish Edward b. 1873 year 1893 ditto
and interestingly and maybe not connected as i cannot view the image
Fish or DAVIS Edward b. 1873 year 1893 London CRIM9
He found little Florrie the 6 year old murdered in the vicars garden - i saw the newspaper article
-
Evening Toni
I have the 2nd son of Alfred and Ellen Wheeler as Frederick Edward Cullmer born 8 March 1867, implicated but not charged. I need to check this!
So Ellen is there as Ingram. As the newspapers say she skipped gone to New Zealand, is there any evidence that the police sent a message there by undersea cable telegraph for her to be apprehended? Too early for radio of course.
What's all this about Fishes various and little Florrie murdered in the vicar's garden? Have I missed some previous posts?
-
I undertook Some research with Jaywit separately on Edward Fish the acquaintance of FWW and he is in newspaper reports as having discovered little Florries body – her mother sent her to the pub to collect something which was just around the corner – not unheard of at that time but she failed to arrive at the pub and was found in the vicarage partially clothed and for some reason I think under a hedge near a pond ?? dead. Edward Fish was walking through there and discovered her the day or the day after she disappeared she was 6 years old. I have the details but not to hand.
I cannot from memory remember her last name or the year
There was nothing to indicate that Edward Fish had anything to do with her death but nothing to say he wasn’t either.
Ellen was not in custody.
-
found the newspaper article dated July 3 (sorry no year) Florrie Rolph
-
Hi,
Year was 1895 Toni :)
-
Thanks Jamajo
Just to note that if Edward Fish was the one up for deception which we think he was he was also known as Edward Davis
and from an earlier thread
Edward Davis Fish b. Mar 1873 Westminster
N.B. Edward davies Fish is the son of william & clara
Name: Edward Davies Fish
Mother: Clara Fish
Father: William Henry Fish
Birth: 16 Apr 1876 - Ealing, London
-
Going back to Daisy and FWW, did we look at Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, 8 Oct 1893? It has a picture of FWW and a description of his 'career' ;D
-
Spider i believe i do have a picture of him & Daisy but i think it was from the Penny Post and not Lloyds
Did we establish whether Alfred and Eleanor nee Sampson had children in Aus - they didnt have any over here before they went.
-
Toni, PM me your email address and I'll send you a copy of the article.
-
Toni,
I've just come across a Victorian newspaper called the Illustrated Police News, which from its title, suggests that it may have mugshots. Has this one been checked?
-
Morning Toni,
I have now checked the birth certificate of Frederick son of Alfred Cullmer & Ellen Wheeler:
Born 8 March 1867 at 50, Leonard Street, Shoreditch - Frederick Edward - father's occupation Furniture (?) Dealer.
Subsequent census returns record his name as just Frederick and his birth being in Bethnal Green (71), Stepney (81); I don't have the rest - I must get them!
-
Hi Alan I've not seen that newspaper before and thanks for the info on Frederick.
Did we find Alfred and eleanor death in Australia?
-
Toni,
From my biodata.doc file:
According to an Osborn family anecdote, there was an ancestor, (who may have been Rosina Osborn’s younger brother Alfred the legitimate son of Alfred & Mary Cullmer), whose occupation was a toffee apple vendor. This ancestor was said to have emigrated from England to Australia, introduced this new confectionery and made a fortune. He than changed his name; one wonders why?
The trial stuff we know, then:
So it would appear that Alfred Cullmer Jnr knew his father’s 2nd family well and was aware of his half brother George’s criminal activities, and presumably his father Alfred Snr’s also, but there appears to be no evidence that he was implicated in the crimes themselves. It would also appear that Alfred Jnr emigrated from London to Australia, presumably Melbourne, in early 1890.
An Eleanor Culmer, confectioner, is recorded in the 1893 Sands & McDougal commercial directory of Melbourne, Australia, as living at 78, Smith Street, Collingwood, (Eastern side); but she does not appear in the preceding or subsequent years. So it appears that Alfred & Eleanor were in Melbourne from around mid 1890 until 1893 at least.
However, there was a series of small-ads in the Missing Friends column on the back page of The Western Australian, The Sydney Morning Herald, and other newspapers, from 18 November 1899 until 13 January 1900, in which the Assets Finance Company of 424 Little Collins Street, Melbourne, Victoria, was searching for an Alfred and Eleanor Culmer:
Text of advertisement:
“CULMER ALFRED or ELEANOR - Please Communicate Assets Finance Company, 424 Little Collins Street, Melbourne. Important.”
So, although he was Alfred Culmer jr in 1893, by the time the advertisement of 1899 / 1900 he may have had another name entirely, this, added to the non-availability of census data has put him on the back burner.
Unless our antipodean hunters consider Alfred jr a challenge?
-
i think from memory they do not appear on the 1890 census in the UK
George and Warren were both in possession of letters to and from Alfred respectively when they were arrested
Alfredwas said to live at 27 A........... Street
According to the newspapers and / or the trial papers the letter that Warren had was telling his mother to come to Australia as there was plenty of opportunity for smokes and not much in the way of detection - so it would seem that Alfred Jnr was aware of their money making activities
Alfred Jnr as far as i know was not illegitimate Mary Hale and Alfred Snr were married by the time of his birth
I did not know about the confectionery bit but i was aware the insurance company were looking for them in 1899
-
Toni,
You are right Alfred jr and his wife Eleanor were not on the 1891 census for England & Wales; whether or not they were in the Australian census we are debarred from finding out due to Australian confidentiality law.
When you say that Warren Ingram had a letter from Alfred jr telling his mother to come out to Australia, do you mean Warren's mother or Alfred's mother Mary? If the latter this implies that she too knew what had been going on.
Alfred jr was the only legitimate son of Alfred sr and Mary, as Alfred & Mary's youngest son George died as an infant
-
Warren had in his possession a letter to Ellen Ingram from Alfred Culmer
of course i forgot that Ellen was not Alfred jnr mother
-
Ah, so Alfred jr sent a letter to Ellen Ingram nee Wheeler advertising that Australia might be a suitable place to branch out with the Fire Business. Therefore were the newspapers correct in saying that she went to New Zealand? Could she have followed Alfred's advice and gone to Australia? Did she then move on to New Zealand for the 1913 fire?
There will be the same tracing difficulties of course with not being able to check the census returns.
-
MOrning Alan and Everyone,
Ellen, could well have gone anywhere in the world.
She was said to have taken steerage to NZ disguised as a boy.
I had a brief discussion with Jan regarding this
I doubt she would have escaped the country on a normal passenger ship.
and thus would have gone on a cargo ship.
In those days they wouldnt like to have women aboard ships and thus she would have been disguised as a boy. but i cannot trace her after she left the country the only lead we have is the papers saying she went to NZ and then the 1913 fire.
the papers also said what the letter from Alfred to Ellen entailed and this is not elaborated in the court papers so wheterh it was sensationlised or not is hard to tell.
One thing for sure is if Ellen managed to disguise herself as a boy then she was of small build.
How do i search the illustrated police news ?
-
Morning Toni.
I came across "Illustrated Police News" while viewing a TV programme called "Murder on the Victorian Railway"on BBC I Player a few days ago. One of the shots had front page heading of the IPN as background so I quickly scribbled it down. I've just Googled it:
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1850-01-01/1899-12-31?newspapertitle=illustrated%20police%20news&sortorder=dayrecent
and find that the front page at least has drawn illustrations (not photographs) so maybe there was something on the trials of 1891, so I'm off now to see whether I can find anything.
-
Toni,
Images for 1891 appear to be missing from the archive for the Illustrated Police News, so I tried the 20 and 27 December 1890 as The Times for 20 December has a report on the appearance of George Cullmer alias Franklin et al at the Southwark Magistrates Court. Unfortunately there were no results coming up for those dates. The Front page for 27 December has a full page illustration of a woman being hanged, so no doubt the initial proceedings against young George and his associates didn't make it into print as there were more sensational cases to write up.
What we really need is the IPN reports (and illustrations?)for the Old Bailey trials the following February, but as I say, the whole of 1891 appears to be missing.
The British Library Newspaper Archive is pay to view and the largest image size without paying is far to small to read anything at all.
-
now why would the whole of 1891 be missing ?
very strange
-
now why would the whole of 1891 be missing ?
very strange
It's a conspiracy!!! ;)
-
Morning Toni,
A couple of weeks ago we were discussing Frederick Edward Cullmer, 2nd son of Alfred & Ellen.
We already had him in 1871 & 1881:
1871: Bethnal Green RG10/500, folio 28, page 6 - aged 4 born Bethnal Green (Birth Certificate says Shoreditch)
1881: Highbury RG11/256, folio 38, page70 - aged 14, Doctor's Errant Boy, born Stepney
I have now found:
1891: Lewisham RG12/517, folio 87, page 2 - aged 23, Engineer's Pattern Maker, born Stepney.
(NB I had originally another Frederick of the right age, a Button Maker, but he turned out to be the son of one of the Brush Maker Culmers).
I have hunted for Frederick Edward in both the 1901 and 1911 censuses - there are a handful of Fredericks about but are either born outside the Shoreditch / Bethnal Green / Stepney area or are somewhat outside of the age range or have a different middle name. Indeed, even the Pattern Maker in 1891 is given the middle initial as 'J'!
So, nothing exactly proven beyond 1881, although we know he was around in 1891 as he was mentioned in relation to the Fire Business; I'm not sure whether this was in the trials or just in the newspapers. Was his address ever given?
-
My aplogies for jumping in on this thread, but I have been sort of following on and off over the time.
I now have a renewed interest in it.
I have a grandfather that I'm having real problems tracking down, he went by the name of Harry Powis.Brief (or maybe not so brief story here) which explains my search for this elusive chap.
http://our-anzacs.tumblr.com/post/2415756759/our-unknown-grandfather
Now I've spent years trying to tack this man down, and at the end of last year, someone informed me that the adress Harry gave for his home on his war records there was a Maria Fish living there, who's son Frederick disappeared, and father was Edward Fish, metal dealer. Maria's mothers name was Powis...so if Harry had changed his name for some reason maybe that;d be a logical name to take.
I recalled that during this long saga of the fire starters that I had seen the name Fish mentioned a few timesbut can't work out the link with them and the crimnals you were talking about. some of whom went to Australia, where Harry Powis went pre 1914 (not sure at what stage as most of the Fish's disappear for the 1901 census.
The family lived in Hackney up to about 1890, then moved to Essex. They seem to disappear after this. Walthanstow in the 1891 census.
Could there be a tie in with my Grandfather, could he have been born Frederick Fish? And could he have been (or the whole family) in this ring of criminals hence their disappearance, and Harry's popping up in Australia, where he went to live with an Arthur Irwin , another chap from Britain who'd joined the AIF, presumably a pal of Harry's as they lived near each other from memory in Britain . Joined together, sailed out together in the same company AIF.
Apologies if I'm throwing a spanner in the works, just seemed a lot of links there, very tenuous I know, but I'm desperate to unravel this chap.
-
Hi Suehogben I am not sure that your Harry is connected from what you say, maybe it would be a good idea to start a scavenger hunt with the story and we can all take up the challenge, more brains might help to crack it and it won't confuse things any further than they already are on here!
-
I've just come across this thread and so joined Rootschat in the hope that someone can help me...
Back on page 8 of this thread is the statement:
"WILLIAM BURTON NEWENHAM was indicted for unlawfully taking Frances Louisa Wortham, a girl under 16 years of age, out of the possession, and against the will of Jane Wortham, her mother."
Does anyone know who William Burton Newenham was??
I believe he may have been a son of Robert O'Callaghan Newenham and grandson of Sir Edward Newenham (1732-1814) and his wife Grace Anna Burton. Certainly, R O'C Newenham had a son Charles Burton Newenham (1794-1887) who married Mary Louisa Darley in 1815; he was Sheriff of the Supreme Court of South Australia. He and Mary returned to England and are shown in the 1871 Census, living in Cheltenham.
There was another Charles Burton Newenham who married my relation Elizabeth Stuart in 1825:
"Charles Burton Newenham, Attorney-at- Law. Married Elizabeth Stewart (sic), daughter of Thomas Stewart, Esq., of Limerick in August 1825. She died at Mallow, county Cork, without issue, 9th January was buried at 1830 ; he died in 1859 at Blackrock; and both were buried at Brinny Church, Dublin, churchyard, near Bandon, county of Cork."
http://www.archive.org/stream/someaccountofear00hoar/someaccountofear00hoar_djvu.txt
In truth, I'm trying to sort out these two Charles Burton Newenhams - but William B N seems to have possibly been a black sheep of this Anglo-Irish family...
Any ideas?
Simon
-
Hi Simon, welcome to RC!
On the criminal register, WBNs birth year is given as 1810. Does that fit in with your bunch of Newenhams?
-
I'm not too familiar with what is on Irish records, but there is a marriage license issued between William Burton Newenham and Sarah Jane Waring in 1830. Would that tell you who WBNs father was?
-
Thanks Spidermonkey,
Yes, I'd seen his marriage to Sarah Jane Waring, but hadn't taken in his birth date on the Criminal record. William and Sarah were living at no 16 and 10 Fitzwilliam Square, Dublin when they married - so, not quite 'the girl next door'! It appears that Sarah Jane died 'on or about 4th May 1831'. (See - http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/19211/pages/2063/page.pdf)
1810 certainly falls into the 'period' of my Newenhams. They seem to have been a very fecund family having anything up to 16 children! So, one more would hardly be surprising...
I gather that the 'original' Charles Burton Newenham was a naval officer who was killed and became a afmily 'hero' after whom several later children were named. It's the 'Burton' and 'Newenham' names of the naughty William that makes me think he is related. (The name Burton comes from the maiden name of Sir Edward Newenham's (1734-1814) wife Grace Anna.)
The transcript of William Burton Newenham's trial is at http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18440610-1582&div=t18440610-1582.
See also http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1846/feb/24/newenhams-divorce-bill
I've actually sorted my problem with the various Charles Burton Newenhams that was vexing me yesterday - but it would stil be good to sort out how William is related (as I'm sure he must be).
Simon
-
...and another reference to Sarah Jane Waring:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f3kDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=%22sarah+Jane+Waring%22&source=bl&ots=9Lkkaw5U1y&sig=kjqSEhoJbZ1SeeIUR7IxBJq4QG0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_jxdUZnfBa6S0QW3tID4DA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=%22sarah%20Jane%20Waring%22&f=true
It is a report of the court case relating to the Marriage Settlement between SJW and William Burton Newenham.
-
Hi Toni,
Further to my post on 7 March 13 on Frederick Edward Cullmer, 2nd son of Alfred and Ellen Wheeler; still nothing positive but FreeBMD has thrown up the following:
Marriages:
Frederick Edward Collimore, Eton, Q4 1889, 3a 912
Frederick Edward Colmar, Congleton [Cheshire], Q4 1898, 8a 543
Deaths:
Frederick E Collimore, aged 79, Eton, Q1 1946, 3a 1816
Frederick E Colmar, aged 86, Willesden, Q4 1958, 5f 195
Frederick E Colmar, aged 82, Epping, Q1 1963, 5a 148
There is also a Frederick Culmer, aged "[39]6", Camberwell, Q4 1902, 476. Fred was born 1867 so would have been aged around 35 in 1902 and Camberwell seems more likely than the others, I would put this possibility top of the list.
I have much more positive information on Sydney, the 3rd son:
In the 1891 census (RG12/424, f 113, p 49) Sidney is living with his uncle Henry/Harry Wheeler, his aunt Rachel and their family, as his father Alfred had died in 1888, his brother George Cullmer and his Grandmother Ellen Wheeler, are both in prison, and his mother Ellen Elizabeth Ingram has escaped arrest and fled to New Zealand.
Sydney emigrated from England to Australia, where in 1909 he married Marjorie Ann Cowie. Sydney and Marjorie had had two children; twin boys Richard Alexander Culmer and John Eugene Culmer, who were born on 8/4/1910. These events took place in Gympie, southern Queensland. However the family were in Brisbane on around 11 December 1914 as this photograph title (photograph is not of reproducible quality) published in “The Queenslander” newspaper dated 12 December 1914 informed the public:
JACK AND DICK CULMER. Four-year-old twin soldier boys who marched in the patriotic procession on St. Andrew's Day, [in Brisbane] and who collected £15/11/8d from the crowd.
The family subsequently moved to New South Wales, where Richard Alexander, having served in the RAAF in World War 2, married Annie Ellen Wilson in 1946. Sydney Culmer died in NSW in 1954 and his wife Marjorie in 1947. John died in NSW in 1979 but nothing is known of Richard. The locations in New South Wales are unknown.
-
I found the Claras in 1911 visiting William Gearing 12 Simla St, New Cross , Deptford, London
William Gearing is a married carman aged 38 although there is no wife present.
Clara S N V doesn't appear to be dancing anymore! She has no occupation
Clara J Q is 5 months old
Hello, I'm a new member of the forum but had my tree here for a few years. I did a google search today on Clara Susan Nelly Violet (my great-great grandmother) and found this post and others mentioning my great grandmother and grandmother. I was brought up with Clara J Q (Jane Quennie, my grandmother) and am trying to find out WHO my grandmother's father was as it was a big taboo in the family. My grandmother Clara J Q was born in 1910 illegitimate and now I have seen this post about the Clara's being with a William Gearing I am beginning to think this may be her father. My grandmother told me she was brought up with Alfred James Urwin who worked for "The Times", her grandmother (Clara) died when she was young (12) and Alfred remarried. Her mother was in show business (dancer) was apparently very very beautiful and tried to get my grandmother into show business too. My grandmother ignored her wishes and married a "poor man" so her mother Clara S N V told her "if I see you on the streets begging for food, I will spit on you for your stupidity and walk away". My grandmother never ever saw her mother again and only found out years later that she married a Mr. Mcnulty and later died.
-
Hi Sallyso and Simonm1953 so sorry i've been away i had a baby in April and aimed to keep on top of this thread while on maternity leave no such luck,she doesn't like sleeping unlike her father who could probably sleep through a hurricane!
Simon i see Spidermonkey has answered your query if you want us to look further into WBN then I'll see what i can find.
Sallyso, if the child is illegitimate on the birth certificate it would be hard to prove without doubt that William Gearing was Claras father.
Alan, It was my belief that Fred went with Alfred to Australia but we had no [proof of this, i think we exhausted all of the subsequent census in England / Wales it is also possible he went with GIC to America but he does not seem to appear there on the census either without the opportunity to search the Australian census online i am leaning towards this. Unless he was one of the unknown people that washed up on the banks of the river Thames.
-
Hello
It has been a long time since I have been on RC but I am back!
although not for long.
I wanted to post this which what happened to Walter Dinney - the police inspector who arrested them all.
this is taken from the internet which I found by googling walter dinney
The rise and fall of the gentleman detective - Police Commissioner Walter Dinnie
Walter Dinnie was a detective of international renown who did much to modernise New Zealand Police. However his career was dogged by controversy and a toxic campaign of vilification which led to his downfall.
Dinnie was born in Aberdeenshire on Boxing Day 1850 and joined police in the West Riding of Yorkshire at the age of 23. In 1876 he joined London's Metropolitan Police and after six years, at his own request, was appointed detective. In this field he thrived and was a Detective Chief Inspector by 1895.
He achieved international acclaim for his investigations of fraud and forgery. His successes included the arrests of gambler and conman Charles Wells - the Man who Broke the Bank at Monte Carlo - in Le Havre; and international jewel thief William 'Harry the Valet' Johnson, who stole jewellery worth £30,000 from the Dowager Duchess of Sutherland. In 1901 Dinnie was instrumental in setting up a system of registering and identifying criminals based on fingerprinting.
In 1903 the New Zealand government asked Dinnie to become the colony's Commissioner of Police. He retired from Scotland Yard amid generous praise, and with a generous pension, and set sail for New Zealand aboard the SS Ruapehu on 23 April 1903 with his wife Fredericka, their five sons and Dinnie's niece Isabella Smith.
A 1914 Dinnie family portrait, with Walter and Fredericka left and right,
and Ted Dinnie seated centre
In his new role in Wellington he quickly introduced scientific and technological advances. He established a new Fingerprint Branch and placed his son Ted, who was trained in the techniques, into it. In 1904 Ted Dinnie became its head and remained with New Zealand Police until 1947.
Dinnie established the Police Museum with a 1908 memorandum requesting that items used in 'important crimes' be gathered at Police National Headquarters. It was intended as a training aid, a world away from the public attraction that is the museum at Porirua today. Ted Dinnie oversaw the collection until his retirement.
Amid the acclaim for the forensic successes, Walter Dinnie came under sustained public attack. There were revelations of inefficiency and scandal, such as the 1905 case of Dunedin constables involved in burgling premises they were supposedly protecting. The resulting Royal Commission exposed weaknesses in discipline. By 1907 the New Zealand Truth newspaper was spearheading a campaign for a new commission of inquiry. Discipline problems in Gisborne and bungled murder investigations in the South Island further hit confidence and by 1909 the Truth was openly attacking the 'dunderhead' commissioner.
In June 1909 an MP launched an attack on the police force, which he said was in a deplorable state. Prime Minister Richard Seddon leapt to Dinnie's defence but Dinnie sought a public inquiry to vindicate his name. The inquiry found New Zealand Police to be efficient and free from corruption, but Dinnie himself was depicted as incompetent. He published a pamphlet rebutting the findings but the Prime Minister announced Dinnie's resignation in December 1909.
After six months' paid leave, Dinnie was appointed president of the Mäori Land Board - responsible for managing leases of Mäori-owned land - in Tokerau District, Northland. He moved to Auckland but could not shake off political and public criticism arising from his lack of experience in such matters and the suspicion that the government had simply found him a cosy job. However, he held the position until 1914 when legislation did away with the post.
Dinnie sought a new official position but after a number of rejections returned to detective work, setting up as a private detective in Wellington. In 1915 he tried and failed to sue the government for wrongful dismissal. Despite his fall from grace, in 1916 Dinnie turned down an offer to be Assistant Commissioner of Police in Samoa because a former senior Scotland Yard officer could not serve under a Commissioner who was "entirely ignorant of police control or administration".
"Circumstances and egotism had led to a once internationally renowned detective ending his years in obscurity and bitterness," wrote Dinnie's biographer Richard S Hill, who sees him as "the archetypal gentleman detective".
-
Marriage:
CULMER— COWIE.— The marriage of Mr. Sydney Charles Culmer, fourth son of Mr. and Mrs. Culmer (England) and Miss Marjory (Cissie) Cowie, eldest daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Cowie, Brisbane (late of Gympie), was solemnised on. 2nd of June, 1909, at the residence of the Rev. J. B. Joimson, Briaban#.
-
i'm sure Robyn found this before so it's just to remind me really
26.10.1899
The Sydney Morning Herald
Cullmer Alfred or Eleanor please com Assets Finance Co. 424 Little Collins St. Melb, important
-
Friday 8th March 1946
The Telegraph Brisbane
Would any persons having knowledge of the whereabouts of John Eugene Culmer lately of Laisky Drive, Spring Hill, Brisbane please communicate with C J Pattinson Solicitor 239 Queen Street Brisbane.
-
Friday 8th March 1946
The Telegraph Brisbane
Would any persons having knowledge of the whereabouts of John Eugene Culmer lately of Laisky Drive, Spring Hill, Brisbane please communicate with C J Pattinson Solicitor 239 Queen Street Brisbane.
In 1943 he is on Scott Street, Newcastle, New South Wales with Marjory Ann Culmer and Richard Alexander Culmer
And in 1940 he appears in the Queensland Police Gazette Index, charged with deserting his wife and children.
-
Marriage:
fourth son of Mr. and Mrs. Culmer (England).
Sydney being economical with the truth I see, as well he might, being free of all blame.
-
Friday 8th March 1946
The Telegraph Brisbane
Would any persons having knowledge of the whereabouts of John Eugene Culmer lately of Laisky Drive, Spring Hill, Brisbane please communicate with C J Pattinson Solicitor 239 Queen Street Brisbane.
In 1943 he is on Scott Street, Newcastle, New South Wales with Marjory Ann Culmer and Richard Alexander Culmer
And in 1940 he appears in the Queensland Police Gazette Index, charged with deserting his wife and children.
I was about to suggest that someone was leaving him money but perhaps his wife was chasing him for maintenance.
These latter members of the Culmer family are really letting the side down. Back in 1485 his forefather Richard Culmer, Yeoman of the parish of St Peter in Thanet, was buried in the chancel before the altar as a leading member of Kentish society.
-
oh Hi I wasn't really expecting any replies after so long but was just trying to update some things
thanks for your help - so if John (Jack) Eugene deserted his wife and children we know at least he had a wife and child!
Sydney was the 4th son, Alfred, George, Frederick and then Sydney - although Alfreds mother was Mary Hale and not Ellen Wheeler
Ellen Wheeler had a brother Harry (Henry) Wheeler and he married Rachel Hitchins - he is fairly consistent with his y.o.b being 1856ish but, of course there is a but, his father Samuel Nixon Wheeler died in 1853.
So was Harry/ Henry actually born earlier or is his father not Samuel Nixon Wheeler?
(his marriage certificate states father as Samuel Nixon Wheeler master mariner and it is widely assumed that a child of a married woman is that of the husband whether that be the case or not - its just I don't think they would expect Harry to be son of Samuel if Harry was born 3 years or even 2 years and 3 months after Samuels death)
-
speculation but I wonder if he is a descended from GIC
http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Eugene_Culmer_4294029/
-
Aceh
do you agree with Edwards possible parentage here?
Reply #75 on: Friday 29 January 10 22:51 GMT (UK) »
Have quickly scanned the other threads but couldn't see this (apologies if it has been posted already).
Alfred senior's father was Edward (only birthdate we have is 25 in 1841, so could actually be aged between 25 and 30). There is a baptism of Edward Culmer (parents William and Mary, 19 Sept 1810, St Mary the Virgin, Dover, Kent) This appears to be the same parents as the George Culmer bp 1791, who might have been the father of the William Culmer who married Sarah Chatterton.
What this actually means, I have no idea; but I do like the idea of being able to tie together all the Culmers that are scampering around the East End of London
-
Evening Toni*,
I confirm that Edward Culmer, a carpenter, was baptised at St Mary the Virgin in Dover on 19 September 1810, the youngest son of William Culmer and his wife Mary nee Hayward. Another son of William and Mary was indeed George Culmer, fisherman and later a fishmonger, who was baptised at the same church in 1791 (actual date not yet found). This George married Elizabeth Brice at the same church on 9 July 1809 and their eldest son, William Henry Culmer was baptised in Dover on 22 August 1810. I don't have a marriage for him and have him being probably dead before Q3 1837 as I haven't found him so far in GRO bmd records.
Going back to Edward, he married Annie Cole in 1830 and they had children as per 1841 census in Limehouse: Mary in c1829/30, who I believe went into service; George Isaac born 24 August 1831, who eloped to Brooklyn NY with his girl friend in 1853 leaving his pregnant wife Sarah behind in London. (Sarah married William Whitehead in Q3 1856 and their 2nd son was the infamous Frederick William Whitehead); Annie Susan, bpt 1833, who married Noble Edwin Smith in 1859 and finally Alfred born c 1835. No baptism records for Mary or Alfred, but both believed to have been born in Dover.
Edward died in the Tap Room of the Bull & Mouth Inn on Bull & Mouth Street in the City of London on 6 March 1849 of "Typhus, 14 days, certified" according to his death certificate, but quite how he managed to drag himself from the family hovel in nearby Bartholomew Close to the "Tap" for his last pint is quite remarkable.
-
Edward died in the Tap Room of the Bull & Mouth Inn on Bull & Mouth Street in the City of London on 6 March 1849 of "Typhus, 14 days, certified" according to his death certificate, but quite how he managed to drag himself from the family hovel in nearby Bartholomew Close to the "Tap" for his last pint is quite remarkable.
;D ;D
That's fab!
-
But, in all seriousness, the death of 13 / 14 year old Alfred's father at the fairly young age of 39 may have had a bearing on Alfred's subsequent behaviour. Being without a father figure at that age would have been quite devestating I think.
-
I'm sure it would have been devastating - but I don't think Edward was the best role model when he was alive. We probably already have this, but Edward Culmer appears before the Dover Assizes as reported in the Kentish Gazette of the 5th April 1833 for an assault on William Gilbert Tucker. Result was given that it was "not a true bill" (is that a forerunner of not enough evidence?)
-
Spidermonkey,
Many thanks for this snippet, which I didn't have - I'll add it to Edward's biodata file, which is quite thin.
-
Another snippet for you:
George Culmer, 50, fishmonger, charged with assaulting Elizabeth Culmer, his wife, ...... discharged with no appearing against him. (Kentish Mercury, 16th Jan 1841)
Is there anyone else who is looking a 'bit thin' that we could work on?
-
Thank you for confirming what you know about Edwards parentage it is helpful - even though I am not directly connected.
As Warren Ingram is my partners 3 x great uncle on his mothers side and on his fathers side James Hickman of the onion pie murder is his 1st cousin 4 x removed!
i have drawn up a tree (in pencil)
-
I see we are on page 20!
I was trying to ascertain whether the Susannah Smith (widow) who Warren is lodging with in 1901 is in fact Susannah Wheeler nee Foster she married Samuel Nixon Wheeler jnr in 1868 and Sam died in 1872.
I appreciate there are probably hundreds of Susannah Smiths & Wheelers and I couldn’t see a relevant marriage (except in Oxford)
-
Have we got that Samuel NIxon Wheeler senior (b. c. 1816) was indentured as an apprentice in the Merchant Navy in 1831?
-
In 1871:
11 Nicholas Street, Mile End
Samuel N Wheeler Head 26 Mar Waterproofer bn Stepney
Susannah Wheeler Wife 25 Mar bn Walworth
Amy S Wheeler Dau 1 bn Hackney
Fred S Wheeler Son under 5 months bn Mile End
-
Amy Susanna dies in 1872
Frederick Samuel dies in 1871
If Samuel Nixon Wheeler junior also dies in 1872, then Susannah is totally alone :'(
-
Samuel Nixon Wheeler was married to Ellen Francklin & is Ellen Wheelers father (although i'm not entirely sure he was Harry b.1856 father as he had died before then!) but I did not have his indenture to the merchant navy. I think we just concentrated on the main characters of the fire ring and Sam had died before then.
I can't find the 1901 census now in the thread but Warren Ingram was lodging with Susannah Smith at 54 Whiskin Street or is Susannah 54? I can't remember
maybe Susannah Smith was just his landlady.
Also i'm sorry but I can't remember either what Warren was doing in 1901 in terms of employment.
-
Samuel Nixon Wheeler was married to Ellen Francklin & is Ellen Wheelers father (although i'm not entirely sure he was Harry b.1856 father as he had died before then!) but I did not have his indenture to the merchant navy. I think we just concentrated on the main characters of the fire ring and Sam had died before then.
I can't find the 1901 census now in the thread but Warren Ingram was lodging with Susannah Smith at 54 Whiskin Street or is Susannah 54? I can't remember
maybe Susannah Smith was just his landlady.
Also i'm sorry but I can't remember either what Warren was doing in 1901 in terms of employment.
They are living at 51 Whiskin St and Susannah is 49. Warren is listed as boarder so I think she is just his landlady. He is a Carman.
Jan
-
Thanks Jan - I know we have had It before but this thread is hundreds of pages long!
Susannah would be 55ish so I guess just his landlady like you say
-
Do you know of anything that could do with another search now there are more records online?
Jan
-
I was wondering a similar thing Jan - whether it would be worth going back to the start and just mapping everything together to see if there are any gaps or queries?
-
I was wondering a similar thing Jan - whether it would be worth going back to the start and just mapping everything together to see if there are any gaps or queries?
Could be a very long job ??? :-\ :o >:(
-
I was wondering a similar thing Jan - whether it would be worth going back to the start and just mapping everything together to see if there are any gaps or queries?
Could be a very long job ??? :-\ :o >:(
Probably :D
-
i know from memory we are still missing Jenney / Jane Onken Culmer from the later census 1891-1911 and Warren in 1911 until their deaths in the 1930's
Also Fred Culmer b. 1867ish younger brother to George son of Alfred & Ellen nee Wheeler he was implicated but never tried - what happened to him?
There was a big age gap between Fred b. 1867 and Sydney b. 1880ish - 13 years
where was Alfred senior at this time? I know we had a possible birth/ death I think for Alfred Charles Culmer 8 years after Fred.
There is a matching death for Annie Susan in the 1920's but we never did really find out where she went Alfred Urwin married Sarah Hudson Skidmore.
-
Mary Culmer eldest child of Edward and Annie Gardner Coles we have no record of her after 1841 census in Limehouse.
and the big one! WHO was Georgetta Culmer how does she actually fit in - she is giving me a headache!
the one who says her father is William - didn't she marry Noble Smith ?
-
and the big one! WHO was Georgetta Culmer how does she actually fit in - she is giving me a headache!
the one who says her father is William - didn't she marry Noble Smith ?
She does indeed marry him on 24th June 1888. Her father is William Cullmer, a bag handle maker. Witnesses are William Mather and Elizabeth Scanlon.
Noble dies 17th Jan 1937. Address on probate is 51 Park Road, London W 1. Probate granted to Georgette Theresa Smith, spinster
-
Using the GRO birth index to look at MMN,
Rosina Culmer bn J qtr 1852 Shoreditch has MMN as "-"
Rosina Culmer bn M qtr 1858 St Lukes has MMN as Hale
Rosina Urwin bn J qtr 1866 St Lukes has MMN as Cullmer
(There is a point to this, because I'm trying to get to the bottom of who belongs to who!)
I think the first time we see Georgette Cullmer/Urwin/Smith is as a 3 year old 1861 with her mother Ann and brother Alfred James Urwin RG 9; Piece: 244; Folio: 2.
Alfred James Urwin bn J qtr Shoreditch 1860 MMN Culmer
but if Ann and Alfred don't marry until 1859 then Georgette should be registered under Ann's maiden name of Cullmer
-
I know I am jumping around a bit, but I think I might have some info that I don't remember us having before (maybe we do ::))
Have we got that Alfred Urwin, Thomas Mahoney and John Day were found guilty of stealing two watches, and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment and hard labour in Wandsworth? Tried on 25th Oct 1859
1861 he's in the house of correction in Lewes RG 9; Piece: 586; Folio: 23; Page: 4
-
Evening all,
Mary Culmer eldest child of Edward and Annie Gardner Coles we have no record of her after 1841 census in Limehouse.
and the big one! WHO was Georgetta Culmer how does she actually fit in - she is giving me a headache!
the one who says her father is William - didn't she marry Noble Smith ?
Quickly answering the above:
1, Mary, the only likely siting that i have is in 1851 was as a Maid Servant in a large house in Marylebone but this is uncertain. If this is Mary then there is a death in Paddington 1891 for a servant of the same name. Details of this not presently to hand.
2. Georgette Culmer, born 1859 Shoreditch, was the daughter of Alfred's sister Annie Susan by Alfred Urwin, born c1831 Hoxton, a shoemaker in St Lukes. Alfred U and Annie Susan had at least 2 other children: Alfred James born Q2 1860 and Annie Susan jr born Q1 1862.
To expand on this I will need to access my biodata files, hopefully tomorrow.
-
Morning all,
MARY CULLMER ca1829 –
Mary was apparently the eldest child of Edward Culmer, a carpenter born in Dover, Kent and his wife Annie Cole born in Warwickshire. In the 1841 census (HO107/701, bk 6, f 11,p 4) the family are found in Salmon Lane, Limehouse, where Mary is given as 12 years old and born outside of the county of Middlesex. No baptism of a Mary Cullmer in Dover around 1830 has been found.
According to the 1851 census (HO107/1488, f ?, p ?), a Mary Colmer aged 22 born in London, is shown as unmarried and working as a Parlour Maid, one of several servants to a family living at 7, Shalford Place, St Marylebone. This may be Mary Cullmer.
Beyond this point Mary has not been traced; several marriages have proved to be incorrect and no death of a Mary Cullmer has been found other than a vague possibility in Paddington in 1891 which is yet to be explored.
GEORGETTE SMITH (nee CULLMER ?) ca1859 – 19..
Georgette was born in 1859 according to the 1881 census (RG11/254 folio 59, page 5), where she is found living in the household of Issac William Osborn and his wife Rosina nee Cullmer, daughter of Alfred Cullmer and his wife Mary nee Hale. Georgette is recorded as being the sister in law of Isaac William Osborn. No birth certificate has been found for Georgette, but at the time it was not yet an absolute legal requirement. Neither has a baptism been found so far. She was initially believed to be the daughter of Alfred Cullmer, bag maker, and his wife Mary nee Hale, but this was not certain.
As Annie Susan Urwin, nee Cullmer, Alfred’s sister, had an illegitimate daughter named Georgette at almost the same time; these two Georgettes may be the same person.
Whatever her parentage, Georgette married Noble Edwin Smith, a carpenter, at St John’s, Chelsea, on 24/6/1888, shortly before Alfred Cullmer’s death. There appears to be an error on the marriage certificate in that her father is recorded as William Cullmer, a bag handle maker, not Alfred Cullmer. Yet no such William Cullmer is known to have been so employed. However, as no baptism has been found for Alfred it is possible that William was his 2nd forename, as his grandfather, a mariner at Dover, was named William.
According to the 1901 census Georgette and Noble had at least 5 children: Noble born ca 1889 in Islington; George born ca 1891 also in Islington; Georgette born ca 1893 in Barnsbury; Reuben born ca 1895 also in Barnsbury and Lucy born ca 1900 in Acton.
Now I'm sure we have dealt with Georgette before but no matter. Alfred Urwin's criminal activities are new to me and I will note the details.
I will look at earlier posts over the past few days and respond as I can.
-
Back again after a stiff coffee!
Using the GRO birth index to look at MMN,
Rosina Culmer bn J qtr 1852 Shoreditch has MMN as "-"
Rosina Culmer bn M qtr 1858 St Lukes has MMN as Hale
Rosina Urwin bn J qtr 1866 St Lukes has MMN as Cullmer
(There is a point to this, because I'm trying to get to the bottom of who belongs to who!)
I agree with the last 2 Rosinas but cannot find the first one, at least not in 1852. There is a Rosina Sarah Cullmer, daughter of George Isaac Culmer (elder brother of Alfred and who decamped to Brooklyn USA with Charlotte Toms sometime in 1853) and his lawful wife Sarah nee Smith formaly Gill, but this birth was 10 Jan 1854. Sarah, the deserted wife, later took up with William Whitehead.
-
Back again after a stiff coffee!
Using the GRO birth index to look at MMN,
Rosina Culmer bn J qtr 1852 Shoreditch has MMN as "-"
Rosina Culmer bn M qtr 1858 St Lukes has MMN as Hale
Rosina Urwin bn J qtr 1866 St Lukes has MMN as Cullmer
(There is a point to this, because I'm trying to get to the bottom of who belongs to who!)
I agree with the last 2 Rosinas but cannot find the first one, at least not in 1852. There is a Rosina Sarah Cullmer, daughter of George Isaac Culmer (elder brother of Alfred and who decamped to Brooklyn USA with Charlotte Toms sometime in 1853) and his lawful wife Sarah nee Smith formaly Gill, but this birth was 10 Jan 1854. Sarah, the deserted wife, later took up with William Whitehead.
The first one has a strong possibility that it was an illegitimate birth - I believe the "-" is used by the GRO to indicate that the baby has the same name as the MMN.
oooooh speculation time - maybe 1852 Rosina belongs to the missing Mary Cullmer.........
-
Ah, Spidermonkey, so you are thinking that Rosina born 1852 may be the illigitimate daughter of Mary Colmer the Housemaid presumed elder sister of George Isaac, Annie Susan and Alfred. Um, but if this was the case then Mary would have been out on her ear from the posh house in Marylebone pdq and probably minus a reference. This would not be entirely unknown and possibly explain why I wasn't able to find a marriage for her when I was looking some years ago. In many cases low stutus domestic servants were not allowed to marry if they wished to continue employment by the posh family. Many a servant in a delicate condition ended up in the workhouse. I'm intrigued by all these Culmers naming daughters Rosina as I know of no precedence for the name in the Culmer family.
Another alternative mother may have been Sarah, the wife of George Isaac Culmer, but the child would have to have died in infancy and a 2nd child then being named Rosina in 1854. Any appropriate infancy deaths out there?
-
Will have a look for a death for Rosina 1852. There is another Rosina Cullmer bn in 1852 in Holborn (Mar qtr 1b 419)
-
Using freebmd and doing a search for death/Rosina/london and middlesex/1852-1861 there were no CULMER/CULLMER/Any other possible variant.
She may, of course, have died outside London or Middlesex so I'll do a search for
death/Rosina/C?l*mer/1852-1861
ETA: nope, no deaths. ::)
-
Will have a look for a death for Rosina 1852. There is another Rosina Cullmer bn in 1852 in Holborn (Mar qtr 1b 419)
This Rosina has a MMN of Gill (so would that be Sarah Smith/Whitehead/Cullmer, (wife of George Isaac) 's maiden name?
-
I haven't found Warren Ingram in 1911 but in 1919 and 1920 he is on the electoral roll at 19 Vincent Terrace, Islington and 4 Alfred St, Islington 1929-32
Jan
-
Not sure if this will get us anywhere:
Edward Culmmer dies 1849 in the taproom of the Bull & Mouth.
1851 census has his widow Annie Gardner Cullmer nee Cole with daughter Annie Susan and Lucy Cole, sister of Annie, all "needlewoman" in the Rookery that was Bartholomew Close in the City off Aldersgate Street.
1852 - 4 May Annie Gardner Cullmer nee Cole died in Lower Street, Deal Kent. Why she was then living in Kent is unknown - possibly to be close to Cullmer relatives? but she was born in Warwickshire!
1861 census - Mary Colmer not found; neither was her marriage or death. Lucy Cole is a servant in Aston Warwickshire. Alfred sent down at the Bailey for "abducting" Emily Blackshaw - Mary Cullmer nee Hale exits stage left with the legit kids.
1862 - Annie Susan's last known child registerd in Q1 Finsbury. But Annie Susan a bolt hole for Mary Colmer + child by then around 9 years old? But possibly is the child Georgette???
or could Mary Colmer (possibly with infant) be with her mother or other Culmer relation in Deal or east Kent generally around 1851 and remain there?
or could she be in Warwickshire with her unmarried Aunt Lucy Cole around 1861?
Sorry- straws in the wind and potentially nonsence. We do not know how close the Culmer siblings and their spouses were to each other in this period before the fire business started.
Over to you - I'm off to have a bite to eat!
-
Alfred Urwin we had in the Lewes House of Correction but we did not have the reason he was there.
Georgette appears with sister Rosina and Rosinas husband Isaac William Osborne on Georgettes marriage her father is given as William
I cannot remember who Rosina gives as her father on her marriage
The 1861 census with mother Ann is this Annie Susan? I don't know if we have that before.
Thanks for finding Warren on the electoral roll
I hate not having a sub but I can't afford to renew at the moment :(
-
If Georgetta was born in 1858 and Annie Susan was married in 1859 maybe Georgetta is not the child of Alfred Urwin and her father is actually someone called William so therefore she would still be the sister albeit half sister of Rosina
-
and the big one! WHO was Georgetta Culmer how does she actually fit in - she is giving me a headache!
the one who says her father is William - didn't she marry Noble Smith ?
She does indeed marry him on 24th June 1888. Her father is William Cullmer, a bag handle maker. Witnesses are William Mather and Elizabeth Scanlon.
Noble dies 17th Jan 1937. Address on probate is 51 Park Road, London W 1. Probate granted to Georgette Theresa Smith, spinster
interesting the witnesses are not named Rosina or Alfred! ;D
seriously I mean interesting they are not connected to the other people in this thread
at first I thought Georgette had gained a middle name but I realise now its must be a daughter!
-
Georgetta is on the census as sister in law to Isaac William Osborne - he married Rosina Culmer daughter of Alfred Culmer & Ellen Wheeler not Rosina Urwin daughter of Alfred Urwin and Annie Susan Culmer
-
do we know who Rosina Culmer b. Q1 1871 Poplar 1c 776
died Islington age 4 Q1 1875 1b 201 belongs to
I hate child deaths its always so sad
added - I found her in 1871 with father Edward and mother Caroline
-
I am posting this specifically as we have mention of Winch (no first name) at Lorrimore Road in the 1891 trial papers.
marriages:
William David Culmer
1890
Age 24
Spouse's Name Louisa Winch
Spouse's Age 19
Event Date 26 Dec 1914
Event Place St. Paul, Deptford, Kent, England
Father's Name William Alfred Culmer
Spouse's Father's Name William George Winch
both parties were single
note also that the fathers name is William Alfred which is what Aceh was saying possibly is where the confusion lies with Georgette giving her fathers name as William and not Alfred
-
Alfred Cullmer
We do not have a baptism for him. His grandfather, the father of Edward Cullmer 1810 - 1849, was William Culmer 1756 - 1816 a mariner of Dover, It is therefore possible that he was known within the Cullmer family as Alfred William or William Alfred.
Other Culmers
There is a line of the greater Culmer family which descend from Holtum Culmer 1756 - post 1794 a gentleman of Kent. Most of this branch of the family moved to London as Brushmakers and ultimately by late Victorian times as Brush Manufacturers. By the times we are talking about there would have been dozens of these families, so some of the people you are chasing may well be them. As far as I know, they used the original single L version of the name. I believe they were based mainly in north and north east London.
-
Georgetta is on the census as sister in law to Isaac William Osborne - he married Rosina Culmer daughter of Alfred Culmer & Ellen Wheeler not Rosina Urwin daughter of Alfred Urwin and Annie Susan Culmer
I believe that Georgette is the initially illegitimate daughter of Annie Susan the sister of Alfred. When Annie Susan married Alfred Urwin the child may have been legitimised, she may even have been the child of Alfred Urwin. So she is not a sister of Rosina Culmer but a niece. Census enumerators getting the wrong end of the stick is not unknown. And Rosina Cullmer was the legitemate child of Alfred and his lawful wife Mary nee Hale.
-
you're right rosina culmer is the child of Alfred culmer and mary hale not ellen wheeler !
if georgette is the illegitimate daughter of annie susan and / or Alfred urwin then she would be cousins to rosina culmer - still not sister in law or step sister as this sometimes is the case when being enumerated and confusing relationships
-
More Annie Susan conundrums:
In the 1861 census, (RG9/244, f 2, p? – page corner torn off), Annie Susan was living at 59, Huntingdon Street, Shoreditch, with her children Georgette and Alfred James. It appears from the same census (RG9/586, f 23, p4) that her husband Alfred Urwin was being detained at Lewes Prison in Sussex, although the prisoner was described as a Tailor, not a Shoemaker.
On 11/5/1866 at St Barnabas, Finsbury, 3 baptisms took place on the same day. The parents are recorded as being Alfred Urwin and Annie Susan Urwin. The children were Alfred James born Q2 1860; Rosina Sarah born Q1 1862 as above, and Elizabeth Selina. However it seems, no Annie Susan jr.- had she died or, perversly, had her name changed to Elizabeth Selina?
FreeBMD shows a total of 12 Elizabeth Urwins being born between 1862 and the date of this baptism; all of these births were in the North East of England, none of the children had a second forename of Selina, so the birth & parentage of this child is uncertain.
On 10 May 1869 at St James, Clerkenwell, Alfred Irwin (sic) widower married Sarah Skidmore nee Hudson, widow, born Shoreditch. The witnesses were Alfred Cullmer and Sarah Whitehead, ie Annie Susan’s brother and their elder brother George Isaac’s deserted wife; both signifying their acceptance of the marriage. Hence, it appears that Annie Susan had died sometime between the birth of Annie Susan jnr in 1862 and this marriage in 1869. Her husband Alfred Urwin appears himself to have died in 1886, having sired a further two children by his second wife, Sarah.
FreeBMD further records the death of a Susan Irwin (sic) in the district of St Marylebone during Q1 1862. This is the only death of an Annie or Susan Urwin / Irwin in the London area during this period apart from a woman who was much older. However, how can this be as her daughter Annie Susan Jr was not born until Q3 1862. From FreeBMD, the death for an Annie Urwin in Q4 1865 at Gateshead 10a 380 is the only other one recorded in the timescale, however this was found to relate to a 3 year old child.
What was going on?
-
No answers to your dilemmas but we did say somewhere way back what Alfred Urwin was in Lewes House of Correction for.
I have a little theory of my own - Mary Culmer aged 12 in 1841 supposed daughter of Edward Culmer and Annie Gardner Coles - is it possible that as they did not marry until 1830 she is in fact an illegitimate child of Annie Gardner Coles and could simply be in later census or married as Mary Coles and not Culmer ?
We cannot say for definite that she was in service somewhere
-
Annie Gardner Coles are we saying that her mother is not Martha Parish?
to recap
Richard Coles a butcher married Martha Parish in 1817
Lucy Coles was christened on 3rd April 1818 at Bodicote
on the census Annie is 6 years or so older than Lucy
-
Evening Toni,
Annie Gardner Cole was the daughter of Richard Cole and his first wife Ann Gardner. Richard and Ann were married on 21 February 1805 at Radway, Warwickshire.
-
Thanks Alan I was looking for that!
Spidermonkey found somewhere the reason why Alfred Urwin was in Lewes Prison in 1861 but I cannot find it in the threads - I've been through several times
From memory I am asking was it robbery with Edward Fish or something else ?
-
:) Hi. I am new at this, so apologies for any breach of protocol.
I have been researching my great grandmother's family and found part of your scavenger hunt about 2 years ago. Relating back to Joseph Millward Whitehead: his wife Rosina Sarah Whitehead died after the birth of their youngest son, Edgar Charles Whitehead early 1882. Joseph struggled to look after the family, and eventually had to put Paul and Alfred into a work house (industrial house). He died in the influenza epidemic in about 1882.
Joseph and Rosina's daughter, Julia Cullmer Whitehead (b.1870, Islington) emigrated with younger sister Rosina Mary Whitehead (b.1881, in Holborn) to Australia, on one of the "bride ships". Julia married Sea Captain ODell (b. County Cork, Ireland) before 1891. In 1891/92 Julia ODell was living in Fremantle, WA, presumably with husband Capt ODell. She sponsored younger brothers Paul & Alfred to emigrate to Australia as well. They went to live with an aunt in (Launceston?) Tasmania.
Rosina Mary Whitehead married Daniel Tapper in 1899 in Fremantle, WA. They became pioneer dairy farmers of the Bibra Lakes area, WA.
Capt ODell died. Julia then married Alfred H. Barrett in Fremantle, in 1901. She died in 1936.
-
My 2nd post here, and it is to clarify who went to Australia after Joseph Whitehead died.
It was his daughters, Julia Cullmer Whitehead, and Rosina Mary Whitehead (who was 10 years younger than Julia). They probably went to Melbourne first. They apparently had relatives already there.
-
Hi Beth
Welcome to Rootschat :D
Toni hasn't been around since Mar but will hopefully be back to respond to your interesting additions to her thread soon.
Jan
-
:) Hi, jan,
Thanks for the welcome and for the fascinating details which have been discovered in this scavenger hunt. I look forward to further additions to this thread. I am still trying to find out exactly when Julia and Rosina Whitehead left for Australia, which relatives they stayed with on arrival in Melbourne, and when did they sail to Fremantle?
Beth
-
Hi Beth
welcome to rootschat
Thanks for your information - that is a loose end tied up nicely!
I haven't been around much as Jan says things have changed quite a lot at home since this thread was started but I have been trying to get back in to the family history lately - its just finding the time!