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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: Steve G on Thursday 15 December 11 21:21 GMT (UK)
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Complete and total mystery! Why did Jacob and Sarah Curtis ~ already with three kids in tow ~ suddenly flit from Portsea, Hampshire up to Newbury? And there Sarah dropped Elizabeth, according to the 41 / 51 census', about 1835.
They were in Portsea in 1831. Back again by 1838. Too early to have been building the race course or railway station. Jacob was a Labourer / Hawker. What (long term?) business might he have had in Newbury, between those years?
This really is one of the last great mysteries of a family I otherwise have almost pinned down. Is there anything I can do / anywhere I might look, from Eire, to try and unpick this one, please?
Thanks :)
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::) Messed That up!
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I note Jacob was recorded a Hawker in 1851 but by 1861 a Fish Dealer, so it's possible he 'hawked' seafood and, if his wife sometimes accompanied him, that could account for a 'one-off' birth in Newbury - a bustling market town with a rapidly increasing population in the period in question.
There are some 'odd' discrepancies between their 1841 Census return and Portsea baptisms and, if married in 1815 and a fertile couple, I question the sequence of children if James recorded aged 13 in 1841 was baptized two years before his elder brother Henry recorded aged 15 in 1841.
Is it liikely there were two couples named Jacob/Sarah so the mother's maiden name 'Avery' was used to distinguish between them?
I did 'spot' a couple of baptisms for daughters 23 Dec 1819 Ann and 10 Jul 1829 Mary Ann, who appear likely to have been infant mortalities in 1822 and 1829 respectively.
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Dee - Jay; I appreciate the time taken to reply. And there's never anything better than another pair of eyes on what one has. Thanks :)
Now, I've just cracked open FTM and have my stuff before me. Of course, this far back, I wasn't able to buy the Cert's. Nor am I able to visit and scrutinise records. So, much of this will indeed be from Census returns and otherwise 'second hand' information others have been good enough to offer me.
So, of course, it's yet open to reinterpretation. Let's see what we can make of it, together:
Jacob's a queer fish, all round. Supposedly born in " London ". He picked up Sarah Avery on the way through Sussex and married her, as I recall, in Portsea. He then went on to Labour / Hawk ..... Jan 1856, I have him as a Labourer. (Incredibly; I don't have the '61 recorded on here! :o God knows what's happened there. But, I can no longer access it, as far as I'm aware. Might have a print out in my files)
He died in '71. Listed as a General Labourer. Witness was Elizabeth Curtis <-- Doesn't state the relationship. Do ye find that curious?
Then, 1896, his son, Jacob, gets married and states Fathers Occupation as " Hawker ~ Deceased ".
Okay. I'll leave that to filter through now.
Oh, by the way: His son, Jacob, went on to marry a Mary Ann. And, guess what? There was indeed another " Jacob (J) Curtis, " couple of years between them, who married a Mary Ann! Then they spent their very similar lives living within a hundred yards of each other.
All this time, there was also Jacob (J) Curtis, the stinking rich ~ who, thankfully, by that dint, manages to stand out in the records and so disassociate himself with the other two. Bugger in the woodpile though remains Jacob Curtis, the Railway Carrier! Who the hell was he to anyone?! :o
And, yes; ALL these people in one tiny place. Simultaneously. Scattered across the records of Portsea like a flock of sparrows. Mistakes could all to easily have been made :-\
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He died in '71. Listed as a General Labourer. Witness was Elizabeth Curtis <-- Doesn't state the relationship. Do ye find that curious?
Not particularly, as Registrars were inconsistent, but addresses on death certs could be useful in identifying her in '71, don't you think? If Jacob/Sarah were at 53 Oxford Street there could be a link to James/Elizabeth at No. 70?
Do you also hold the death cert for Sarah aged 80 4Q 1877?
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Do you also hold the death cert for Sarah aged 80 4Q 1877?
:o Damn! No! I'm sure I must have hunted high and low for that one too. What can I say? Back in the day, I was at it day and night. Ferreting out every Cert' there was. I wasn't happy if I wasn't ordering £300's worth at a time.
Some slipped through the net. Now, every one I see I'd missed seems like completely vital. Only, I'm as skint as everyone else now :-\
I'll follow up on that one though. Although, only this afters I discovered a newspaper report of the death of a Dame Sarah Curtis. Wife of Lord so and so of Portsmouth. Bit too late for my Sarah though. This one sounds feasible though. Eighty ....?
Now; Oxford St? A world unto itself! People living there appeared to have been in a constant state of flux, up and down the street. I get the impression there was a 'better' end to it. And that hand carts loaded with possessions would have been the main traffic. People ebbing and flowing from the better to worse addresses, as their fortunes changed.
Indeed, the whole area of " All Saints " was, in those days, basically slums. (Nowadays it's council owned properties) Oxford St pretty well cut right through the middle of it. Whole place was only a few hundred square yards though.
Anyway, ye say " James & Elizabeth, at #70 "? Of course, I can't check the full details behind what ye seeing there ~ yet. My signed up co worker is on the continent and has just shut down for the duration. Back in the new year.
However, yes, I'll be intrigued to follow up this James and Elizabeth. It would be perfectly usual for their daughter, Elizabeth, to have married a local lad and to have joined in with the " Oxford March ".
Great input, once again. Thanks :) Once my oppo' resurfaces, I'll show her this and will, hopefully, by then have framed some focused points of enquiry for her to follow up for us.
I'll start by checking out the potential for this dead Sarah, when I reopen my FTM, tomorrow ;)
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However, yes, I'll be intrigued to follow up this James and Elizabeth. It would be perfectly usual for their daughter, Elizabeth, to have married a local lad and to have joined in with the " Oxford March ".
I thought James the more likely close link: son aged 13 with Jacob & Sarah in '41?
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:( Nope. No good, Dee - Jay. This'll have to wait till my rellie over the water gets back to me. I just can't access these references myself, so I have to idea who or what ye alluding to here.
Anyway, they're here now, the references. Once my friend's back, she can look for us and pass me the relevant pages. Then I can reawaken this thread ;)
Once again; Many thanks for the effort. I'm sure there's going to be stuff in here which has remained hidden thus far. Frankly, I'm itching to get amongst it. Just have to sit on my fingers for a few more weeks.
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Hi Steve, My name is Rob I'm researching the Portsmouth Curtis family for my wife, as well as my own Family, I would like to contact you through a private channel if possible,
Cheers Rob Faa
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PM'd ye my addy, Rob.
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::) Okay. That, obviously, isn't working, Rob. I know that You have to make so many posts, before ye PM system functions. But, as I was able to send it, I presumed you'd be able to access it. It would appear that's not the case.
I can't just put an email addy on here. That's against the boards policy and the Mod's would have to remove it.
So, we need to get ye three or five ~ what ever it is ~ posts up. Mad, I know. But, there it is.
Tell me, Rob; Is ye wife a Pompey girl? (Screw ye loaf here. Don't tell me ye lifes history. I'll ask the questions ;))
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Yeah she's a pompey girl,
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I got a warning about private messages.
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I have sent you some info.
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I can't type very fast Arthritis in my hands.
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:o Jesus Wept!!! Just read ye mail, Rob. Wow!
Okay. Just been out, doing something sneaky. Give me ten minutes, to get my breath back and sort myself out. I'll come back in email. Wow! We need to talk! ;)
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Just in case you haven't yet seen this:
Baptism:
Place: St Nicolas Church Newbury Berkshire
Date: 30th April 1835
Name: Elizabeth Curtis
Parents: Jacob and Sarah Curtis
Father's Occ: Labourer
Abode: Newbury
It doesn't actually help you much though!
There were two other couples named Curtis who were having their children baptised in the same church between 1831-1841 Adam and Hannah Curtis and Adam and Sarah Curtis. Perhaps there is a family link further back and Jacob Curtis moved to Newbury for work
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Candrjm; Thanks :) I hadn't seen that. And, whilst it may not get us much further forward, every bit of evidence helps solidify the foundation.
Interesting point about the other Curtis' too. This guy's a real conundrum, in all honesty. Married his Sarah in Portsmouth. But, she comes from Eastbourne. And there's Curtis' there too! That begs the question; Did he stop off in Eastbourne, on his way out of London; Visit his folks there and bring Sarah away with him to Portsmouth?
I wish there was some way of knowing :-\
Actually, now I come to think of it: What happened to his people back in London ....? I think I'll go back to bed! ;D