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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Mooncoin on Friday 16 December 11 10:47 GMT (UK)
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I have 2 photos given to me of Thomas Lyson Mayor of Oldham 1957-8 who is connected to our family. I have managed to go back to my great grandmother Betty Young from Hindley, married to John Young, and discovered her maiden name is Lyson(s).
How do I work backwards from Thomas Lyson to Betty to see were the connection lies. In the photo he looks between 55 -60 yrs old, which puts his birth around 1900, I have no information about where he was born or who his parents are, just the scant info on the back of the photo, Thomas Lyson Mayor of Oldham ...relative. Another photo has Joshua Lyson on it?
Is anyone researching the Lyson family who lived in Oldham?
Cheers
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He is mentioned here http://www.oldham.gov.uk/past-mayors.htm
I wonder if the council would be able to give you more info- for example what age he was when he served or perhaps when he died?
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There could be someone with a living memory of Thomas who might throw me a lead with his fathers name. Betty Young (Lyson)came from a family of all girls so the Lyson name needs to be a male one somewhere.......
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Mooncoin - looking at FreeBMD it seems Thomas Lyson wasn't a common name. The most likely birth seems to be registered March quarter 1904 in Wigan as Thomas Lyson. LancashireBMD has this as in the Hindley sub-district which looks promising. You haven't given Betty's dates, but you could work with the census & may well be able to see the link that way.
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IGI have a marriage for Thomas Lyson and Ellen Dean in 1924
14 Jun 1924 Oldham (St Paul), Lancashire,
Parents Joshua Lyson and Robert Dean
Milly
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Fabulous that looks like it, I love this forum :)
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He died in Fylde in June 1971 with a DOB of 13 Jan 1904.
Ref 10c page 604
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Possible marriage for Joshua Lysons to Mary Ann Friers
5 May 1894 St Peter, Hindley, Lancashire,
Joshua Lysons -age 23
Occ: Collier
Res: Hindley Green
Groom's father John Young, Occ: Collier
Mary Ann Friers - age 21
Res: Stony Lane
Father: Thomas Friers, Occ: Collier
Witnesses: William Carter and Margaret Alice Friers
And probably them in 1901
6 Algernon St, Hindley
All born Hindley
Joshua Lyson age 30 Coal Hewer
Mary Ann Lyson age 28
John Lyson age 4
James Lyson age 1
RG13 - 3561 - 76 - 32
Milly
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Joshua's father is given as John Young..... not John Lysons
age 23 in 1894 - gives dob 1871
I wonder? Real name Lyson(s) - but brought up by John Young and Betty?
What is the marriage you have for Betty and John? I can see one for a John Young and Betty LICENCE at All Saints, Hindley in 1872. (on LancsBMD)
15 Apr 1872 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
John Young - Bachelor - age 24
Occ: Fireman
Res:L Hindley Common
Father: David Young, Labourer (Deceased)
Betty License - spinster - age 23
Res: Hindley Common
Father: Joshua License, Collier
Witnesses: George Prescott and Betty Prescott
and FreeBMD ref
Jun 1872 Wigan 8c 26
Milly
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Joshua License Birth
Birth: 12 NOV 1870
Christening at Hindley, Lancashire 09 APR 1871
Mother Elizabeth License - no father given on transcription
And in 1871 - Address: Chowbert?? Road, Hindley
Elizabeth Licence age 24, Unmarried (Cotton reeler) and son Joshua (age hard to read).
Living with her parents/his grandparents James Atherton (Cotton labourer) and Mary Atherton
Plus assorted other siblings all called Atherton
RG10 - Piece - 3890 - 154 - 3
So - is that YOUR Betty Lysons Young??
Milly
Milly
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and is this them in 1881?
at 787 Atherton road, Hindley
John Young age 36 - head (washer?? coal mine)??
Betty Young age 32 - wife
Joshua Young age 10 - son (Could this be Joshua License/Lysons?)
John Young age 7
Thomas Young age 5
Ellen Young age 1
John Gaskell age 28
RG11 - 3771 - 88 - 41
Milly
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Just been looking at the Atherton connection I am sure that is another Betty Lysons .....hard to read.
My great grandfather is John Young 1848 Hindley Green died 1 2 1894 Hindley, married Betty Young we now think is Elizabeth Lysons.
can we connect Joshua Lysons father of Thomas Lysons to Betty.
The groom thing of John Young would be right
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oops no John Young was a steeplejack, could he have been a collier previously??
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I have a commemorative teapot made on John Young and Betty's wedding day .............Hindley 1877
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My god that is it Joshua Young is actually Joshua Lysons it's got to be..........fabulous
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Is it?
You've lost me with all this talk of teapots and steeplejacks :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Let's go backwards just to check.....
What marriage do you have for Betty and John and what were the occupations, address etc?
Milly
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Or do you only have the 1877 teapot as evidence of marriage?
because my theory is all based on a 1872 marriage
I can't see any 1877 marriages in Wigan area for John Young to a Betty or Elizabeth.
Could the teapot be a 5 year commemorative item?
And where does the steeplejack info come into the story?
Milly :)
PS - Just seen a tree on Ancestry that has Betty and the 1872 marriage and all the other info including Joshua (except that has two Joshuas instead of one)... And there are a couple of others too.
One says that Betty Lysons father died when she was a baby and her mother remarried to Atherton...with Betty appearing as either Lyson or Atherton in various census..... Are any of these trees yours?
None of them have the two Joshua's actually being the same person - but it looks very likely to me
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Why doesn't Thomas or his dad Joshua appear on the indexes of the 1911 census?
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Why doesn't Thomas or his dad Joshua appear on the indexes of the 1911 census?
I can't see them either
Milly
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Why doesn't Thomas or his dad Joshua appear on the indexes of the 1911 census?
I can't see them either
Milly
There's a Joshua Young in the same household as a 7 year old Thomas Young in Oldham in 1911 ;)
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Poor chap seems to have a bit of an identity crisis
Milly
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John Young's occupation is definitely a steeplejack he died in a fall and Betty Young remarried John Gaskell the lodger that had lived with the family for 10 yrs. it hadn't occurred to me that Joshua her 1st son was the father of Thomas Lyson. Thomas Lyson was always referred to my mother as "a Cousin" that would be correct if Joshua is the father.
I had Joshua mistakenly down as Josiah. which made me look for brothers etc of Betty Lyson when really it is her son, there is an anomaly why would he revert back to Lyson when he was a Young, although this is the 3rd time something like this has gone on in my family.
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Either he wanted to sound posher than plain old Young ;D
Or perhaps something nasty had happened in the Young family and they wished to distance themselves from that?
Carol
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I wonder if Thomas went back to Lyson because he wanted to get into local politics and thought it a better "local" name?
John Gaskell - aha - I can see him with Betty in 1901 and 1911 now so that makes sense.
So - there are a still a few anomolies...
Is the 1872 marriage for Betty and John Young the right one are do we still need one in 1877?
And who are Betty's parents?
Do you have a marriage cert for John Gaskell and Betty in 1894 - that would confirm her father..If it is Joshua then that leads back to the 1872 marriage to John Young.
And is Betty Lyson(s) the same one living with baby Joshua and her mother (remarried as Atherton) in 1871
Oh - and John's occupation change to steeplejack of course... He's a coal miner in 1891 (at Atherton Road with Betty and the children). Maybe he just fancied a change? Or couldn't work underground any more for some reason? Or maybe he had two jobs? (Is steeplejack on his death certificate, or do you have a news article or something like that?)
Milly
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I've just thought... when did Joshua Young (Lyson) die? Perhaps Thomas only changed back to Lyson after that so as not to annoy or upset his father?
Milly
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I know the Atherton Family with Betty Lyson isn't correct for me. If you look, the mother ( can't remember name) has 2 children out of wedlock and with different fathers by the look of it, George the elder boy has a name different to Betty (sister) Lyson ......in the next census they have all changed names to Atherton as the mother has married. Betty Lysons continues through the Census from then on as Betty Atherton.
I need to find a marriage date for John and Betty, the inscription on the teapot could have been done at a later date for sure.
Don't know the father for certain of Betty Lyson. Got a Moses Lyson from Drigg Cumberland and Abigail his wife that looks right. They lived in Broughton west lancashire. That would fit with Betty's dates.
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She's with them again in 1851 - this time clearly written Lysons - wife's daughter - born Hindley
(all born Hindley except James Atherton)
James Atherton age 32 (engine tender)
Mary Atherton age 25 (handloom weaver, silk)
George Prescott age 4 (wife's son)
Betty Lysons age 2 (wife's daughter)
Thos Horrocks age 22 (brother in law) (coal miner)
Jane Horrocks age 21 (silk hand loom weaver)
HO107 - 2200 - 261 - 1
I think .... Mary Prescott had George out of wedlock, then married Joshua Lyons and had Betty. Then Joshua died and she married James Atherton. (There's a family tree on a certain website that has the original marriage certs for both these)
Wouldn't this Betty Lysons born Hindley be a better fit than one born in Broughton?
As you know the marriage date for Betty and John Gaskell for sure...you could probably get her father's name from that.
Milly
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Wow I am getting confused now,
Thomas Lysons father is Joshua Lyson. If Thomas is born 1900-1905 say, then Joshua needs to be born within !870-1876.
Betty Young's eldest son Joshua is born 1871 so the dates are OK for that , it's just the name , he is Joshua Young , but given that alot of these 1st children were born out of wedlock he could be born Joshua Lyson but that needs to be proved.
I am not on my computer at home at the moment but I have evidence that Betty Lysons marries John Young. The other Betty continues with the name Atherton. it doesn't say Betty Atherton marries John Young.
This is hard
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This is the Trevor Jones 44 on Ancestry. It's wrong. I have contacted this lady and she is of the Coward family , she has all of my grandfathers brothers down on her chart but it isn't right and I have contacted her via Ancestry.
John Young did not marry Mary Prescott, not in my family anyway. My mother at 81 still has recall.
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I am not looking at the Coward tree - and other than looking at original certificates - I take many online trees with a pinch of salt ;) ;)
I am sure that your mother is quite right that John Young didn't marry Mary Prescott :)
I am saying that Mary Prescott married 1) Joshua Lyons in 1846 and 2) James Atherton in 1850
and that she is the mother of Betty Lysons born 1848.
Betty Lysons/License then marries John Young in 1872 (after having Joshua Lysons in 1870)
It would be interesting to see what info you have about this marriage when you get back to your computer..
Milly
Betty Lysons birth
DecQ 1848 Wigan 21 738
Joshua Lysons birth
Decq 1870 Wigan 8c 77
Betty Lysons (License) and John Young Marriage
Jun Q 1872 Wigan 8c 26
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Ahaha I can see that much clearer now- so on the 1911 census Joshua has taken on his 'step' fathers name,despite being born a Lyson before his mum married two years later. Until you get the actual cert ,we wont know if John Young was his natural father though unless you get the birth cert.
It may turn out that she didn't actually name the real father though.
Carol
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I have it now John Young (1846-1894) married Betty Lysons at
Hindley All Saints 15th April 1872.
You were right Milly B.
Was Joshua her first son named Lysons or Young? If he was a Lysons then he is the father of Thomas Mayor of Oldham. I think from Ancestry there was a John and a James older brothers to Thomas. Aaaah that would make sense.
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Betty Lysons birth
DecQ 1848 Wigan 21 738
Joshua Lysons birth
Decq 1870 Wigan 8c 77
Betty Lysons (License) and John Young Marriage
Jun Q 1872 Wigan 8c 26
Mooncoin,
You will see from these dates that Milly found for you that Joshua was born in 1870 before his mum married in 1872 so was a Lyson......she later married John Young and I imagine to make things simpler all round Joshua took on his 'step' dad's(and mum's new) surname.
Unless of course John Young WAS actually his natural dad?
He may well have adopted him and so he became a Young that way.
Carol
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There is a marriage 1872 Wigan Betty License do you think that is a phonetic mistake?
Someone misheard Lysons and wrote License.
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What is the marriage you have for Betty and John? I can see one for a John Young and Betty LICENCE at All Saints, Hindley in 1872. (on LancsBMD)
15 Apr 1872 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
John Young - Bachelor - age 24
Occ: Fireman
Res:L Hindley Common
Father: David Young, Labourer (Deceased)
Betty License - spinster - age 23
Res: Hindley Common
Father: Joshua License, Collier
Witnesses: George Prescott and Betty Prescott
and FreeBMD ref
Jun 1872 Wigan 8c 26
Milly
Yes - that is the one I think is correct. I would say almost certainly a mis-hearing of the name...
I think the tea-pot must be a later gift
Milly
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And you will see her father's name is Joshua - which is the name she gave her first born son
And witness is George Prescott - who I think is her older brother as seen in the 1851 Census (with the Athertons)
John Young occupation is fireman. (I think this may be as in keeping fire going in a mill or coal mine rather than what we think of as a fireman today)
Milly
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Yes we have it now.
My grandmother said a steepeljack but he wasn't it's a fireman, he fell from a tall ladder and was killed which is probably a fireman's job.
If George Prescott is the witness we are onto the correct family, whoo hoo there it is , fabulous thank you for all your help.
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Do you have the marriage cert for Betty Young and John Gaskell?
That will give her father's name. If it is Joshua Lysons then it ties everything up very nicely.
Do you have John Young's death certificate? It will confirm more about how he died and his occupation at the time. If it was an accident at work there may have been an inquest.
Milly
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I haven't got either but I could order it.
Just a little anomaly ,when Betty married John Young was she named Lysons or Atherton because the later census has her name changed to Betty Atherton?
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I think this family had a bit of a complicated set-up with various illegitimate children, children from second marriages etc.
I don't think she actually changed her name to Atherton in the legal sense. Either she was using that name day to day to fit in with the rest of the family - or her stepfather just put it down that way on the census as it was less complicated. You will probably never know.
But - for legal things like births and marriages - she used her REAL name of Lysons.
The same thing happened with Joshua and Thomas later - switching from Lysons to Young and back again but keeping the Lysons name for legal things like births and marriages.
You'll probably never find out when or why they decided to alternate or what they were actually known by to their friends etc. Just remember when you are searching for ANY of this family to try using all the various names available.
Milly
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I haven't got either but I could order it.
I would get them..... This is a bit of a complicated story which would benefit from some concrete facts to make sure there are no more surprises ;D
Plus you can see the 2 Prescott/Lysons/Atherton marriage certificates on that online family tree so that saves a bit of money!
You could possibly get Joshua Lyson's 1870 birth certificate too - just to check whether a father's name is given (unlikely but you never know)
Milly
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Ancestry charge nearly £30 which does work out expensive when you make a mistake and accidently order the wrong certificate.
Maybe I should post the death certificate 1886 of Harriet Leigh age 16 from Droylesden in Manchester on here, it could be someone's relative. lol
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Noooooo :D Don't pay £30. :D :D :D :D :D
Get them direct from the General Register Office. They cost £9.25
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Use the reference numbers given earlier in this thread.
You are lucky in that the Hindley parish records are so good (and you get to see those other two certificates for free) - but there are times when there is no alternative.... You need to confirm each generation before going back to the one before. As you have seen - just using the census is not very reliable ;)
Milly
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mooncoin iam the nephew of thomas lyson
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lyson family oldham three brothers my uncles oldest joshua/jack thomas and my father david my granfather i beleive was josh young he was the union convener at the oak pit hollins oldham he was 6ft 5ins and was arround 17 stone fair curly hair does this match your photos thomas trainee mechanic at the pit later north western bus co then landlord of the colliers arms cross hotel corner of honeywell lane and ashton rd oldham for 27 years my father used to run the pub when my uncle was away on buisness last address wylvere court queens promanade bispam cremated carlton
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Hello Ferranti and welcome to Rootschat!
I am not related to this family in any way but got very interested unravelling the mystery Mooncoin posted. We discovered that Josh Lyson/Josh Young appeared to be the same person but could not work out why he kept changing his name.
I don't suppose you have any family tales to shed light on the mystery do you ;D ;D ;D
Milly
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hi Millymcb to start off you would need mooncoins photos to judge the mans size as i stated josh young was a huge man if he is not the same man then he is josh l yson ihad a photo of josh young but cannot find it if they they are not the same man then i beleive the father of my uncle joshua/jack and my uncle tommy is josh lyson born in wigan my grandmother moved to oldham with josh young where my father david was born i have always had the name of lyson and my father took my grandmothers name the subject was taboo in our household iwas born 13th dec 1942
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An intriguing mystery!
Milly
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well this is very interesting! I have just got back on track with my Young side of the family as my mum heard "betty" went travelling apparently and nobody knew where she was? so it made me curious so I came for a snoop :)
I have that Mary Prescott and Joshua Lyson/s (so many variartions its confusing) had betty.
Joshua Lysons died when Betty was 1
Mary Prescott married James Atherton and carried on producing some children.
Betty young had a son <Joshua lyson/s>
Married John young and had some more children.
John died in an unfortunate accident in 1894 and she went onto to marry John Gaskell not long after.
I have looked through cemerety records in Hindley cemertery Wigan and both husbands are buried in the same grave along with a Joshuas children, also Betty is buried there too with some of her Lysons children....so even though they moved to Oldham at one point, they must have come back here...if this is the same family, it must be though!
Betty is my 3rd great grandmother, I still live in Hindley.
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hi I cannot access the user name Ferranti so I am using outlook. as I have stated I believe my grand father was josh young. when I started work at 15 in 1957 at Ferranti eng. as a sheet metal worker there where some men who had been former miners one was jack west who came up to me and said your josh youngs grandson I used to work with your grandad at the oak pit. my grandmother betty had a fish and chip on hollins rd my grandfather died first when my grandmother died my father david went to live with my uncle Joshua/jack and my auntie annie on limeside . also living on limeside was a david young who had a daughter called mary who my father always used to refer to as cousin mary I believe he was josh youngs brother. in the early sixties I used to take my father david and my mother elsie to a terraced house on the Liverpool rd Hindley who I believed lived a cousin of my father we would have a drink at a pub I think was called bird in the hand then I would go on to central park then come back and pick them up hope this helps. graham lyson
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Hello Outlook/Ferranti. Do you have any information on Thomas Lyson being the mayor of Oldham, i would have presumed something would be online but i can only find one council page but no pictures or anything, i know it was the late 50's so maybe he didnt have any taken, its not like it is now! I am going to Wigan history shop this week so hopefully something will be in the old papers/records of the family, the Young/Lyson is confusing a bit!
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Have you tried contacting the Oldham chronicle to see if they have any pictures?
www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk
Heather
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Hi lalibelaboop it was 1957 when my uncle tommy was the mayor it was the year Oldham rugby won the championship I stood on the town hall steps with him at the civic reception for the team. Regarding any photos my mother and father had the official photo of my uncle and aunt in their full regalia my mother donated this to Oldham council in 1984 I have a large photo of the then mayor kevin leyden accepting the photo on behalf of the council. iam sure this will be in the Oldham civic centre archives. regards outlook
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death
death
Joshua lyson
birth date 1870/71
date of registration sept. 1925
age at death 54
registration district Oldham Lancashire
volume 8d
page801
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1911:rg14:piece:24513 6 Algernon st. hindley
661 hollins rd hollinwood Oldham joshua lyson 30
joshua young 41 mary ann lyson 28
mary ann young 39 john lyson 4
john young 14 james lyson 1
Thomas young 7 these are the same family add 10 years from Algernon st. to hollins rd.
david young 2 and I believe my grandmother was before marriage mary ann friars
david young 27 they just kept changing their surname