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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: sparkgirl on Monday 19 December 11 22:29 GMT (UK)
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I discovered that I was related to Maria earlier this year! Her grandfather is my great^6 grandfather, her father being my great^4 grandfather's 1st cousin.
I have begun my own research into the events and have come across a number of inconsistencies.
I would love to hear from anyone else who has researched the Murder and any other descendants.
Thanks in advance
Sparkgirl (nee Martin)
:D
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Hello Sparkgirl and welcome to RC. I remember years ago the Ipswich Theatre did some research on the Maria Marten murder and at that time it was obvious there were inconsistencies relating to who actually did the deed. It may well be that Corder was an innocent man, and I would be interested to hear how your research progresses. I'm afraid I don't have any info I could help you with, unfortunately.
Regards,
GS
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There is a copy of William Corder's death mask ( and other rather gruesome items!) at Moyes Hall Museum, Bury St Edmunds - the museum website also has quite a bit of information about the case:
http://www.stedmundsbury.gov.uk/sebc/visit/redbarn-intro.cfm
Cati
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Some years ago I was in touch with a researcher who had the family story to the present day. I lived in that area of Suffolk for forty years and took some photographs of Polstead to send for her records.
I will see if I have any details and if I can find them will PM you.
Pat ...
moved across the county three weeks ago!
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I recall many years ago as a school governor seeing a play performed based on these events.
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Hi
Maria was my 1st Cousinx5. Good luck getting at the truth.
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My ancestor was in the crowd at the execution!...
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Dredging up a long ago thread here, but I thought I ought to add on the off chance that people are still active.
I am allegedly a descent of the Martin family in the famed Red Barn Murder, though I have yet to find the proof.
Today I made the first breakthrough and read that although you often see the name Maria Marten in the media, her name was actually Maria Martin. Now I've discovered that I feel like the story I heard could be true and I'd like to start following the paper trail.
If anyone out there would be willing to help please do drop me a private message.
Thanks!
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Interesting story. Poor Maria.
I was just browsing rootschat and just popped in to add that the spelling of the surname is fairly irrelevant as back in those days people would not have been as hung up on correct spellings as we are today, so Martin/Marten makes no difference. The spellings would be interchangeable and the surname spoken exactly the same way no matter what the spelling.
I notice that the OP has not returned to this topic, and the last time they visited rootschat was Oct 2013 - this may be why there has been little response for some time - everpne has given up. ::)
Anyway, it is often good to revive old threads as new information can come to loght, so good lick with the search.
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Previously Sparkgirl
Yes I am still researching this and the Martin's in Polstead - feel free to PM me if you want to exchange information.
If you want to have a good read - go to google books and search "red barn murder" and "william corder" which you download for free.
As to what actually happened only Maria and William will ever know the truth. I do believe at least he shot her and he did bury her.
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I was brought up with the knowledge of this story all my life by my Romany family, only the first born was exposed to what we know as the truth on this, and being the first born I was told of this from a child all my life, My family have taken the truth to their grave till now, as my father laid dying he mentioned the murder three days before his death that i was brought up with,and told me to do what i feel i need to do on this old murder, so i shall start now.
Maria's name as some call her was not her name, she was brought over with her father as a child, they came with many other Romanys to work on the farms, the squire where they settled in polstead told them they must all register at ipswich in the name of William Vine for the males and Mary Vine for the females, As that would be easier for him to remember, Mary's father after registering was given a different name by the squire due to his experience of his work, thats where the name Marten came into this. Mary when she got older decided to call herself Maria when she would entertain the men by singing and dancing for them, Yes she had a son at an early age by a married man, Yes she did get pregnant by one of the squires son's and had his son but that child died, it was when the squire and his son died that Mary picked up with William Coulder the squires last son, whom promised her the world but treated her badly, she became pregnant by him and gave birth to a daughter, where Coulder convinced her that she faces prison for having another child out of wed lock and she must give the baby up, But they shall marry and when things have settled she can get the baby back, but to say to people the baby was sick and died, Mary gave the child to relatives whom took the child to Cork in Ireland, when Coulder thought the coast was clear he avoided Mary, and they made arrangements to meet in the barn, where he told her he would not marry her, an argument started and Mary stated she was going to expose Coulder to his mother and about their daughter and how the baby was entitled to the estate being of his blood, and she will get the baby back, this is the reason he murdered her as he did not want a Romany bastard child having a claim on what was his. (Thats why NO body of the baby was ever found)It was her father whom had the visions and Romany men would not admit they have psychic abilities so the current wife of Marys father claimed she saw the visions, No body of the child was ever found due to the fact the child never died, Coulder being the nasty evil person he was still denied his child up till he was hanged, thinking he would get away with the murder and that the child had gone, The child was brought back to the UK but in those days DNA did not exist and Coulder was now dead, So the relatives travelled down with the child to Bexleyheath where she always knew about her parents and what her father did to her mother, she was nicknamed "Queenie" but named Mary Vine after her mother, where she lived out her days never forgiving her father for the evil he did, and knowing he even tried to blame one of their own for her mothers death, Even till this day Coulder has been cursed to hell and his death mask and book in his skin shall always remain on display, he deserves no mercy at all, Now ask me how I know all of this? I shall tell you Mary Vine and William Coulder were my Fathers Great Great Grand parents. And all of Coulders assets is classed as Blood money in our eyes as he took the life of one of our own and will never be forgiven for this.
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Maria's real name was Mary Vine, Coulder always called her Mary by her real name never Maria, Maria Marten was her show name only no more, for when she would entertain. Her daughters name was also Mary Vine after her. I believe my father and great aunt on what they drummed into me since a child on this murder, even till he passed away he maintained it to be the truth, even to coulder paying certain people to claim the child died stating it was for marys protection to not to be placed in prison for having three babies out of wed lock, I am sorry if i have put a spanner in many peoples research on this, but her name was not marten it was vine, and the child did live that is why coulder could never show where he claimed it was buried and no remains were ever found, he was a liar and a thieft and an evil man, and all mary was was a young romany girl who fell madly in love with a nasty evil rouge of a squire
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If anybody would like to know more, as this is just a rough outline of events of what really happened, also Maria's real name what is Mary NOT Maria I am more than happy to reply to you, just message me, As this tale has been misled for too many years, and now is the time for the truth on this murder.
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Romanygirl,
Have you taken (or considered taking) a DNA test? It could prove useful to support your family story. You might find some descendants of the child who you say lived.
The events happened a long time ago and even with best will in the world family stories are likely to have changed over the centuries. DNA will probably be the best evidence you can get, especially if you have a relative from an earlier generation who would be willing to take the test.
Sometimes the names Mary and Maria are interchangeable. :)
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Yes I have considered taking a DNA test, Ive even enquired about it to a person on how to do this, but the replies I received were not good, I came away feeling that my family history will never come to light, what is claimed to be the truth by them, I am a decendant of the child, If what my father claimed to be true, as the child (of William and Mary aka Maria) was my father's Great Grand Mother.
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Yes I have considered taking a DNA test, Ive even enquired about it to a person on how to do this, but the replies I received were not good, I came away feeling that my family history will never come to light, what is claimed to be the truth by them, I am a decendant of the child, If what my father claimed to be true, as the child (of William and Mary aka Maria) was my father's Great Grand Mother.
You don’t need to make enquires, just buy a test, swab, and post it off:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/
There are other companies but most people test with Ancestry, so you are likely to get more matches through Ancestry.
I don’t know what sort of things the person said to you to put you off a DNA test, but unless they are close family and have not had any success with their own DNA test on this particular branch of the family, then don’t take too much notice of them.
Everyone’s results are different. Especially if illegitimacies come into the mix, which they sometimes do, you and close relatives such as cousins may/will get different matches.
Other times you just need to be patient and wait for others to test and eventually match with you.
You really have nothing to lose by trying DNA.
If you need help interpreting the results, ask for help here on rootschat.
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I was told to do a DNA I would need DNA from Maria aka Mary or Coulder to prove I am a direct blood relative, and doubt I would be granted it for many reasons, plus if it is possible and proven that I am, what my romany family claimed even my father on his death bed, then all the stories on this case even though some are fact, would have to be rewritten, in short the baby died changed to the baby lived, and so forth, The one chance I thought I had I was to late was the skeleton remains of Coulder, what were claimed to be his, was handed over to a person whom claimed she was married to a very distant decent of Coulders and had them cremated. What angered me is she is not a blood relative at all only via marriage. If I had known that at the time I would of tried to of stopped it, as he does not deserve to rest in peace, and never shall, I felt she was being disrespectful to Mary aka Maria by having his skeleton cremated, The dna you mention is it the one that just shows what nationalities you have only? For the record the person whom left me disheartened on the dna subject, was an author whom wrote books on this murder, but he did believe what i told him, and agreed that the many things i told him add up, and even he believes the baby lived and thats why no body was ever found despite coulder showing where he claimed he buried the remains of the child.
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You test your own DNA. There may be descendants of Mary/Maria, who may have taken a dna test. Surely it wouldn’t matter if the story had to be re-written. I’m sure there would be many people keen to revisit the story. :)
DNA doesn’t just test ethnicities (not very reliably at least). You will match with a lot of people and you will not know how you match, but it is worth persisting. You would hopefully get matches with Coulder descendants, possibly even descendants of his siblings, so you need to keep an open mind about how the matches connect with each other.
If true, it sounds odd that a non relative of this man would want to exhume his remains and have them cremated (unless there is more to this story or it didn’t happen the way you were told). I don’t think you would have been allowed any say in this matter.
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Colder had no other siblings, his brother had a son but that baby died same as his brother, The lady was married to a distant descendant of corders, corders skeleton was on display in a london hospital and she wanted it removed and cremated to give him a christian buriel, (what he is not entitled to ) so she went to court to do this and was granted this request, as she claimed it was not right that it was on display, and so she had the skeleton cremated, there was no exhume of a grave for that, and is trying to get the book made of his skin and death mask etc to cremate also and from what I heard wants to place his ashes in the same cemetry as Mary/Maria, what is wrong. She will not get the death mask or book I know this, and I am happy for them to stay where they are for eternity, On display, I will do the DNA as ive saved the link you have given me and I thank you for that, my aim is to tell my romany father's side of this, why his great great grand mother was murdered and that the baby lived, and to make certain what i was told all of my life is true, if it is not, then my father went to his grave with not knowing that the story that had been passed down for generations was a lie, and he went to his grave believing it to be true, one that was kept secret within his romany family to protect the child of Mary/Maria and corder. i am not a young stupid person i am in my mid 60s and it took the removal of corders skeleton for me to speak out, or i would also of taken this to my grave, but as i stated in my eyes his skeleton should never of been removed and cremated, it should never of been granted as she is not a distant blood relative,she's a relative only by marriage. Even my old great aunt would tell me about my family history and the murder of one of us Mary/Maria and how evil corder was. But i shall do this dna, is there anything i need to request at all? I have asked many questions on dna and the easiest and the fastest way of getting it, but it would never be granted what i asked, even the book of his skin is so fragile and has been preserved for hundreds of years dna from that would not be possible, Also i must stress the creamation of the skeleton remains i stumbled on as they were cremated in catford what was not far from where i was at the time. As i stated reading that is what prompt me to speak out, as the saying goes "There is two sides to every story" and in my eyes so far the one that people know of is mainly fiction and my families one is fact, there is some truth but not all truth, eg Marys/Maria's step mother had a vision=Not true it was her father but the romany men never admit to having psychic gifts only the women did, Corders friends back up the tale the baby was sick and died= he paid them to say this as he told them that if the authorities find out Mary/Maria had 3 children out of wed lock she would be placed in prison and it was for her protection, so they agreed to lie for him. They never saw the baby at all. I shall let you know how i get on with the dna, and also see if it matches up on the descendants that ive already traced. I intend to go to polstead soon, as i promised my father i would visit Mary/Maria so she is still remembered, I was in Norfolk at the beginning of the year but never had the time to go there, if there is anything you would like to know on what i have been told on this maybe message me and i shall tell you everything i know. And then maybe you can see from my eyes as to why i am doing this, and wanting the truth to be told, not to be told to forget it by people whom do not understand the values a romany has where family are concerned . Sorry if this sounds a bit jumbled up but it early hours of the morning and i am quite tired .
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Well good luck with it all Romanygirl.
As far as I know there is only the one Ancestry DNA test, so you don’t have to decide or request anything. After you get the results I would recommend that you upload the raw data to other dna sites, but don’t worry about the logistics of doing that just yet.
OK so Corder doesn’t have descendants or siblings, but there may be descendants of more remote ancestors such as Uncles etc. Let us know when you get the test results back. :)
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Hi Romanygirl,
Since it sounds like you may be heading off into the confusing and jargon-filled world of DNA testing, you may like to know that there are essentially three types of DNA testing. Not all the companies which offer DNA testing (there are others apart from Ancestry) test for all three types.
The first is Y-DNA (https://isogg.org/w/index.php?title=Y_chromosome_DNA_test&oldid=4956) testing which looks specifically at the male gender-linked Y chromosome for information that’s passed line from father to son.
The second type is autosomal DNA (https://isogg.org/w/index.php?title=Autosomal_DNA&oldid=5612) (or atDNA) testing, which looks at DNA from all of the chromosomes except the gender-linked X and Y chromosomes. This is better for finding links to cousins of any gender.
And the third is mitochondrial DNA (https://isogg.org/w/index.php?title=Mitochondrial_DNA&oldid=2938) (or mtDNA) testing, which looks at information passed down the direct female line, from mother to her children but can only be passed on by a daughter.
We inherit roughly 50% of our DNA from each of our parents but the amount of DNA varies between siblings. From this you can see that over successive generations, the amount of DNA you may have inherited from a distant ancestor is diluted. In your case the mtDNA route might be the most useful one as it would link you to Maria/Mary fairly conclusively, but obviously there is no DNA sample for Maria/Mary and so you would be relying on a female descendant of Maria/Mary's mother or grandmother having done a DNA test. I don't know enough about the Martin family to know if any such individual exists. If they do, you might need to persuade them to do a DNA test as the take-up rate in the UK is still relatively small.
Good luck with your new venture. It clearly means a lot to you to get the story straight.
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I have not tested with Ancestry but most people on rootschat who have had a dna test have. It has the largest database so Romanygirl is likely to get more matches through Ancestry than if she tested with FTDNA for example.
Ancestry only do the autosomal test which will give matches to both paternal and maternal lines.
Though I haven’t taken an MTdna test, I have read that this is the least useful of dna tests, and although I don’t know the numbers, I expect the uptake on mtdna tests is the lowest, and therefore there is less likelihood of getting useful matches. I’m sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. :)
It might be useful for Romanygirl to know if Corder did father Mary/Maria’s baby, but by just tracing the mother’s line surely she would miss out on any useful paternal matches? :-\
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Hi Ruskie
Yes Corder did father the child, also I have spoken to my brother whom is willing to have his dna done also, as I am one of nine, (eldest, brother next) so I am willing to go for both Mary/Maria and Corder. Do both sides and see what turns up. As I suppose thats all I can do at the moment and try and cover every angel possible and maybe bring some closure to it good or bad. Also if proven I am a blood relative then I would know that what I was brought up with is the true version of this murder.
Andy J2022 it is very important to me, as for a long time since my father's passing I have struggled with the story of what to do and I do need to know the truth, Esp with the knowledge that corders skeleton remains were cremated, I need to know the truth for peace of mind mainly, and put things straight if true, I am willing to go for everything on this, the mtDNA sounds okay with me. I can only try every possible option thats open to me, and ignore the ones that told me to let sleeping dogs lie, walk away or it will upset the apple cart if true, Maybe they told me that knowing its because i am a romany who knows? But if something is not true surely its better to know the truth no matter what it is?
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I’m afraid Romanygirl that probably none of us knows our true family history - official records and family stories are both subject to possible inaccuracies. Corder may not have been the father of that child. The dna won’t lie though, and unexpected connections may be discovered. Best to keep and open mind. :)
You could take the autosomal test with Ancestry, but for the male line test (YDnA) and the female test (mtdna), you would need to go to another company.
FTDNA are good but have a large American database so the matches may not be so helpful for you.
The y test in particular is very expensive. You will need to get your brother tested at the highest number of matches you can afford. The lower marker tests are fairly useless as any common male ancestor may be from thousands of years ago and untraceable.
Good luck with it all.
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Hi Romanygirl,
Forgive my ignorance about the Romany way of life, but am I right in thinking that most Romanies tend to marry within their own community. If this is not gross stereotyping, then it means that Romany DNA will be somewhat 'purer' than the typical DNA of the community in East Anglia, which has become diluted by all kinds of 'foreign' influences.
It appears that many Romanies (around 59%) fall into haplogroup H (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)) (another DNA term you will hear much about as you embark on your journey through DNA-land) and among some Roma communities in the Balkans, the haplosub group H-M82 is very common. Haplogroup H is relatively rare among non-Romany Europeans and so this may mean that after getting your results, some matches may be more distinct and thus easier to interpret if Corder's DNA is present.
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Hi Andy J2022
You are very correct on romany way of life, but some now do tend to wed outside. People always refer to Mary as Maria, Corder always called her Mary by her real name, even in his diary he referred to her as Mary, But even to this day many still insist calling her Maria, their child was named after her, Mary Vine, she married a William Vine, and so forth, where she lived out her days in bexleyheath with her family. I really want to thank everyone here with the help they have given to me and pointing me on the right path that I should take on this matter, and also listening to my side of events of what I was told to be the truth. It has really helped me to be able to speak out on this and know that I was heard and was not met with any negativity towards me, I really do thank you all, Now I shall get the dna ball rolling and see what it reveals good or bad either way it will put this secret that my family have carried for generations to rest, I thank you all God Bless x
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Don’t forget to come back and let us know what you discover RG. If you need help interpreting the results don’t hesitate to ask - there are some quite knowledgeable people here.
I hope you find the answers you are looking for. :)