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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: bubbles2011 on Sunday 25 December 11 16:57 GMT (UK)

Title: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bubbles2011 on Sunday 25 December 11 16:57 GMT (UK)
Hi I was wondering if anyone could help me please?
I have found out from the 1891 Census that an ancestor was in Swansea Prison (unknown to any family members). The lady was my gg grandmother and I was wondering how do I find out why she was in prison?  She was born and I believe lived in Breconshire!
Any advice would be really great!
Thank you
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: barryd on Sunday 25 December 11 18:10 GMT (UK)
What was her name and have you any further information about her. Marriage, age, married name, husband's name, children (not living), etc..
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bubbles2011 on Sunday 25 December 11 19:49 GMT (UK)
Hi thank you.
Her name was Mary Jane Perks ne James born 1861/62 in Brecknock Breconshire was married to a John George Perks marriage took place abt 1880 in Breconshire. I can only find one child at the time a William Henry Perks born abt 1888. She was 29 when residing at Swansea Prison on the 1891 census.

Thanks again any help would be appreciated! We are all very intrigued by this!
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: barryd on Monday 26 December 11 04:24 GMT (UK)
I can see on the Internet at least two people in the last ten years who have been trying to research Mary Jane (James) Perks ancestry. They had no visible luck.
I found no evidence why she went to prison but her husband was still alive and she returned to him after serving her time. What are the options in 1891 for a woman? - probably stealing something valuable!!! Here is her life.
1861+- - Mary James born Breckonshire, probably Brecon. No Mary Jane James. 6 Mary or Mary Ann James registered in Breckonshire 1858-1864.
1880- Married JUN Qtr. Probably Brecon. Definitely Breckonshire. Husband George Perks.
1881-Census-Living at 4 Silver Street, Brecon, (St. David's Parish) with husband George Perks from Wolverhampton, Staffordshire.
1887: DEC Qtr. William Henry Perks born Breckonshire, probably Brecon.
1891-Census-Prisoner in Swansea, Glamorgan. Husband George living in Penderyn, Glamorgan. George from Wolverhampton, Staffordshire.
1901-Census-Living with her husband , Clydach Vale, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan. George from Smethwick, Staffordshire. William Henry living with them.
1911- Census-Living with her husband (born in Wolverhampton again) Rhondda, Glamorgan. William Henry living with them.
1913- William Henry believed to have married Florence A. Pitbryant but this is in dispute. DEC Qtr. 1913, Pontypridd, Glamorgan.
1929- JUN Qtr. Mary Jane probably died in Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan.
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bubbles2011 on Tuesday 27 December 11 10:07 GMT (UK)
Thank you for your kindness in researching for me, I am very grateful to you!
Would you please be able to answer a few more questions please?
Would you know how long Mary Jane was in prison for?
Why is William Henry wedding in dispute?
On the 1911 Census it says that John George and Mary Jane had 15 children 11 died 4 survived but I can only find two children William Henry Perks born abt 1887 and Ada Maud Perks born abt 1898, have you any idea how I could find the other two children?

Your help is much appreciated
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: barryd on Tuesday 27 December 11 20:56 GMT (UK)
William Henry PERKS son of Sarah Ellen HARRISON and husband  John PERKS
was born on {Monday} 26 Dec 1887 in Brindley Ford, Staffs. He died on 22 Feb 1949 in Penrhiwfer, Glamorgan. William Henry married Florence PITBRYANT on 25 Nov 1913 in Pontypridd, Glam. (This from Web Site of John and Barbara Dixon). Brecknock William Henry Perks was registered in December 1887. Staffs William Henry Perks was registered Wolstanton, Staffordshire, March 1888 which is reasonable as the calendar for 1887 is the same as 2011 and he was born on Boxing Day Monday 1887 and his parents waited until the next weeks to register him (1888). One of these William Henry Perks married in Pontypridd 25 November 1913. Was it Staffs William Henry or was it Brecknock Willliam Henry who was living in Ystradyfodwg/Rhondda,  1911 Census and both these places being in Pontypridd Registration District.


 
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bubbles2011 on Tuesday 27 December 11 22:05 GMT (UK)
Thank you for your time researching and your response.
The William Henry I am looking for is the Brecknock one, brother to Ada Maud Perks.
Would the other William Henry be a relative to them due to John George Perks being from Staffordshire? Or in England is Perks a popular surname?
William Henry with the Brecknock Perks is a popular family name!!
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: barryd on Tuesday 27 December 11 22:51 GMT (UK)
The problem is the the other researcher is saying the Staffordshire Perks is the one that married in 1913. I think it is the Brekcnock one i.e. your one, is the one that married in Pontypool Registration District, 1913.
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: briwales on Tuesday 27 December 11 22:59 GMT (UK)
Hi Bubbles,
Just info for you going on what you are saying.

I Find a Samuel Perks buried at Trealaw Cemetery That is Ystradyfodwg that died aged 16 days in 1916 in an unmarked plot.

A Phillip Alfred Perks aged 5 Months Died 1922 buried in with Mary Jane Perks aged 68 died in 1930 both in Plot V406.

Hope this is of help to you,

Regards

Brian
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: barryd on Tuesday 27 December 11 23:31 GMT (UK)
From the burials we get:
Samuel Perks - born 1916 - Mother "Bryant"
Phillip Alfred Perks - born 1921 - Mother "Pitt-Bryant" buried with grandmother Mary Jane James Perks - age 68 - born 1862.
Free BMD.
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bubbles2011 on Wednesday 28 December 11 11:21 GMT (UK)
Thank you for all your replies.

So I can assume from the burial records of Mary Jane with her grandson Philip Alfred that the wedding in 1913 is Brecknock William Henry or seems to be?!
I presume that Mary Jane is buried in Trealaw Cemetery, where can I get a map of plots for Trealaw Cemetery please?
Can anyone help me where would Ada Maud Perks Jones (died abt 1940)  be buried please?
All this is so fascinating cause I am a Perks, I didn't realise that my ancestors had been to prison etc.

Thanks again for any help.
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: briwales on Wednesday 28 December 11 13:48 GMT (UK)
Hi Bubbles,

You are correct Mary Jane is in Trealaw Cemetery.

Also Ada Maud  Jones (43) d. 1940 in Plot V160 also Trealaw Cemetery.
With Ada Maud is Ivor George Jones (8 Months) d. 1926
and Gwendoline Mary Jones (1) d. 1920

Please Send an Email Address to me by PM for a map of the plots.
 Trealaw Cemetery is quite large but the ones you want
are in V so not so hard to find.

Regards

Brian
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: barryd on Wednesday 28 December 11 15:28 GMT (UK)
From these burials we get:
2 children, both births registered in the Pontypridd area, both mothers maiden name Perks.
Ivor George Jones MAR Qtr. 1926.
Gwendoline Mary Jones SEP Qtr. 1919.

I will try to work out how long I estimate Mary Jane was in prison.
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bubbles2011 on Wednesday 28 December 11 22:05 GMT (UK)
Thanks to you both for your help.
We have learnt something new because as a family we thought Ada Maud only had 4 children not 5. 3 surviving and 1 dying as an infant.

That would be great if you could estimate how long Mary Jane was in prison for, as a family we have been totally shocked by this because nobody ever mentioned it!
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bernard_lewis on Thursday 29 December 11 00:27 GMT (UK)
Not listed in the Cambrian Index (Swansea newspaper of the period). Thought there might have been mention of her offence but apparently not.

SOME Swansea Prison records are held at the West Glamorgan Archive Service. Google the archive service and look at the online indexes or give them a ring. Records not with them are likely to be still at the prison - if surviving.

Bernard 
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: barryd on Thursday 29 December 11 01:14 GMT (UK)
Mary Jane Perks possibly served her prison time between 1888 and 1893. May be not all of that time but some time during those years.There were no Perks children registered as having been born between those years in Pontypridd.
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: bubbles2011 on Thursday 29 December 11 19:49 GMT (UK)
Thank you for all your help its been much appreciated!
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: Carley Louise Perkins on Monday 14 October 19 10:47 BST (UK)
Hello. I am also researching this line of the family tree. I found out that Mary Jane Perks went to prison, age 29, on 4th April 1891. Her offence was committed in Merthyr.

Her offence was written down as 'Stealing a .?. and it's contents'.
She was sentenced to 1 month in Swansea prison. Frustratingly I can't make out what it was that she stole? You would think it said bag but there is no tail at the end of the word for the g?

Would anyone be able to make this out for me?

I am unable to attach the document as the file is too large. The document is there on the genealogy sites. If anyone would be kind enough to look it up and try to help. It would be very much appreciated.

Thank you in advance. 

Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: despair on Monday 14 October 19 13:49 BST (UK)
Possibly "...a box..."?

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: Carley Louise Perkins on Monday 14 October 19 19:27 BST (UK)
I think you could be right!

Roger.... Thank you very much.

Could you help me further?  ..... is it strange that I can't find any newspapers reporting the crime?
Would there be information from the courts?
Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: Greensleeves on Monday 14 October 19 21:56 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat, Carley Louise.  I have had a quick (but not comprehensive) look to see if there are any newspaper reports of the sentencing of Mary Jane Perks but can't immediately find anything.  I am wondering if it was because such 'crimes' were fairly commonplace in those days.  The living conditions for ordinary people in many towns were horrendous, and those who resorted to a criminal activities did so generally just to survive.  The conditions in which many people were living in Merthyr alone are enough to make one weep. 

Title: Re: Swansea Prison 1891
Post by: Carley Louise Perkins on Tuesday 15 October 19 17:43 BST (UK)
Greensleeves... Thank you for taking a look.

I was guessing that this would be the case. Looking through the prison documents it's obvious what desperate times these women were living in.

I got so excited thinking that i could find more information. Sadly I don't think its out there.

Thank you again.

Carley