RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Shetland => Topic started by: Gibson1900 on Wednesday 28 December 11 20:07 GMT (UK)
-
The Scott line of my ancestors hailed from Shetland and I have traced them back as far as into the seventeenth century. According to family legend, some of them had "dark hair and swarthy skin." I don't suppose anyone has ever heard of this occurrence in Shetland? Some of the family were not Scottish, but came from somewhere else, after their ship, which was emigrating to America, was wrecked - supposedly at Vaila Sound. This would seem to indicate the Bachelor of Leith, but according to all the records, everyone in our family tree was born in Shetland and certainly all have Shetland names (this ship was sailing from Caithnes and Sutherland in 1774). Also, I was wondering if the ancestors with dark hair and swarthy skin could have been descended from sailors of the Spanish Armada??
The member of the family who is said to have been shipwrecked has been potentially identified as Lilias Bain, born in 1760 and married to Peter Peterson, but again this has still to be independently verified...
-
Hullo, and a Happy New Year to you and yours.
I'm an annual visitor to Shetland and I've heard from 'locals' that yes, sailors of the Spanish Armada did land in Shetland, plus Orkney, Caithness, and Sutherland.
Scott is not an unusual surname there in Shetland, around 40 in the phonebook alone.
James.
-
here is some information regarding the El Gran Grifon which was shiprecked on Fair Isle in 1588 , http://shetlopedia.com/El_Gran_Grifon
also here is the link for Shetland Family history society.
http://www.shetland-fhs.org.uk/
good luck
Elinga
-
I think the Spanish thing is largely mythology. Many Scots are swarthy, we're a very mixed breed. Shetland has been settled by Scots since before it was aquired by the Scottish crown. Scott is a common name in the Borders and there are Shetland landowners of that origin.
Skoosh.
-
I think the Spanish thing is largely mythology. Skoosh.
Isn't there a similar story relating to the Irish?
Maybe a DNA test would give you some pointers as to whether this is truth or fiction? :).
-
I traced my family history back to Shetland too. 17th century.
My family are all (even today) blessed with very dark hair, dark eyes and swarthy skin. Especially the males. This is very curious indeed.
-
Not sure why people from the Shetlands wouldn't have 'dark hair and swarthy skin' in particular.
I had an in law who was extremely dark and swarthy, as were his parents, and his family were from rural North Yorkshire going back centuries. All the lines in the tree had local surnames commonly found in the local parish registers.
One of my own lines, ag labs from the rural areas around York, were very dark and swarthy too.
The singer Bjork is from Iceland and she is quite dark.
-
I understand the gene pool in Iceland is largely Celtic. The Vikings took slaves in Scotland and Ireland on the way there; they saw themselves as colonial farmers rather than permanent settlers, and tended to return to mainland Scandinavia when they reached retiring age, leaving their 'slaves' behind. Those were more like indentured servants, who were generally well treated and often rewarded for faithful service with a gift of land. Of course they were required to speak the Norse language, which has changed much less than the other Scandinavian languages.
I admit I haven't done a DNA analysis, but the distribution of blood groups in Iceland is much more similar to that in Ireland than in Scandinavia.
The Picts (as opposed to the Scots, who were Irish) were very possibly pre-Celtic settlers and could have been swarthy. The pre-Celtic folk in Ireland are sometimes referred to as Iberian. Though I feel the Iberian peninsula may have been only a staging post -- perhaps for a generation -- on a migration route taken by some seafaring Mediterranean adventurers (Phoenicians?, Trojans?, Carthaginians?).
The gene for blue eyes is recessive, for fair hair too I think, so the darker variants will tend to persist in a population.
-
It does seem like the Celtic parts of Britain are the most swathy
Sean Connery, Catherine Zeta Jones etc The Welsh in particular are quite dark featured I find
Maybe this is what Britons looked like before Anglo Saxon and other influences
-
I understand the gene pool in Iceland is largely Celtic.
I don't think there is any such thing as a 'Celtic gene pool'. 'Celt' is a language branch/ time period, not a genetic group.
'DNA study shows Celts are not a unique genetic group'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31905764
Icelandic paternal gene pool
'About 20-25% of the Icelandic paternal gene pool is of Gaelic origin, with the rest being Nordic.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelanders
The Vikings took slaves in Scotland and Ireland on the way there; they saw themselves as colonial farmers rather than permanent settlers, and tended to return to mainland Scandinavia when they reached retiring age, leaving their 'slaves' behind. Those were more like indentured servants, who were generally well treated and often rewarded for faithful service with a gift of land. Of course they were required to speak the Norse language, which has changed much less than the other Scandinavian languages.
I admit I haven't done a DNA analysis, but the distribution of blood groups in Iceland is much more similar to that in Ireland than in Scandinavia.
The Picts (as opposed to the Scots, who were Irish) were very possibly pre-Celtic settlers and could have been swarthy. The pre-Celtic folk in Ireland are sometimes referred to as Iberian. Though I feel the Iberian peninsula may have been only a staging post -- perhaps for a generation -- on a migration route taken by some seafaring Mediterranean adventurers (Phoenicians?, Trojans?, Carthaginians?).
The gene for blue eyes is recessive, for fair hair too I think, so the darker variants will tend to persist in a population.
The people of north western Europe are closely related and were probably all of various complexions and colours. Many Anglo Saxons and 'Vikings' would probably have been dark. 'Britons/Celts' might have been too but many were probably blonde and blue eyed as well. We don't really know.
The idea that all 'Celts' were dark and all Nordic types were blonde was not true. North western Europeans probably didn't look much different than we do today.
It isn't true that blue eyes are 'recessive'. Two blue eyed parents can have a brown eyed child and vice versa.
'One of the oldest myths in human genetics is that having blue eyes is determined by a single gene, with the allele for blue eyes recessive to the allele for non-blue eyes (green, brown, or hazel)'
https://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mytheyecolor.html
-
It does seem like the Celtic parts of Britain are the most swathy
Sean Connery, Catherine Zeta Jones etc The Welsh in particular are quite dark featured I find
Maybe this is what Britons looked like before Anglo Saxon and other influences
Anglo Saxons probably looked very similar to Britons/Celts.
Most of Europe was 'Celt'
-
When the university bookshop in Belfast closed down a couple of years ago, the manager told me they just couldn't compete with the internet. I imagined he meant Am*z*n, but afterwards it occurred to me that students probably don't buy books at all these days. "I read it on the internet, so it must be true".
I'm evidently going to have to start burning my books.
-
It does seem like the Celtic parts of Britain are the most swathy
Sean Connery, Catherine Zeta Jones etc The Welsh in particular are quite dark featured I find
Maybe this is what Britons looked like before Anglo Saxon and other influences
Anglo Saxons probably looked very similar to Britons/Celts.
Most of Europe was 'Celt'
Interesting reading all about the dark swarthy ancestors as I have some in my family tree.
Another film star springs to mind is the late Gregory Peck who mentioned that his colourings came from the "Black Irish" side of his father's Irish ancestors.
Also a friend of mine, her two brothers, and her sister are all dark skinned with blue eyes and the other brother had reddish hair with freckled completion but tans easily. The surname MacKelo seems rare and it's not clear to where the surname originated from. Their parents, Dad was born in Scotland and Mum originated from Spain.
Moderator comment: Names of living people removed in accordance with our 'no living people' policy.
Please read our guidelines for posting
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
-
Well, a Spanish galleon is supposed to have sunk in Tobermoray Bay.
The Duke of Argyll spent a lot of money trying to find and raise or at least salvage the supposed treasures she was carrying.
Presumanbly some sailors survived and perhaps intermarried.
Whilst Tobermoray is not in Shetland it is not too far away and people did travel.
Viktoria.
-
Surely DNA tests specifically amongst these Shetlanders and Iberia have to be the answer? Wider DNA tests of the British population would be helpful to answer the wider questions.
-
@ Viktoria, anent Tobermory to Shetland distance, I wouldn't like to run it for the toilet! ;D
Skoosh.
-
Surely DNA tests specifically amongst these Shetlanders and Iberia have to be the answer? Wider DNA tests of the British population would be helpful to answer the wider questions.
Agreed. Check out my profile pic
Looks more like Michael Corelone to me than a Scot Shetlander but there you go
-
I wonder whether centuries of peat smoke and Shetland weather may have contributed. ;D
-
The Scots have been settling in Shetland long before it became part of Scotland & about half the surnames are Scots, the Norse population used a patronymic until these became fixed in the late 18th century as Nicolson, Anderson etc' & what became of the Pictish inhabitants after the Norse settlement nobody knows. More Norse words are apparently used in Lewis Gaelic today than in Shetland Scots so no displacement of population there where Gaelic came to dominate, just as Scots replaced Norse in the Northern Isles. There is also the effect on Shetland of the Dutch fishing fleet & Hansa merchants who dominated the islands trade & economy for generations.
An interesting subject, I had a Shetland gt grannie, a Tulloch & Nicolson combo so Scots/Norse!
Skoosh.
-
@ Viktoria, anent Tobermory to Shetland distance, I wouldn't like to run it for the toilet! ;D
Skoosh.
f
They had got so far North though Skoosh ,albeit blown off course from presumably wherever The Armada and Drake`s fleet engaged.
They could have sailed to Shetland and the sea is one big toilet!
I don`t know when the rumour of a Spanish galleon laden with treasure started, but I like to think if it was after Glencoe it was a super practical joke played on the Duke of Argyll- a hated Campbell. ;D
Viktoria.
-
@ Viktoria, the Mull galleon was blown up by the MacLean's I believe. James VI sent shipwrecked sailors back to Spain, in Ireland they were murdered. There is a Spanish bronze cannon salvaged from the wreck at the entrance to Inveraray Castle.
Bests, as ever!
Skoosh.
-
Interesting stuff but I'm not sure I believe it, let me explain why
A spaniard breeding with a native scot and hundreds of years later his features are still around? Even when a black african mixes with a white, in just a few generations the "blackness" is almost completely gone. They might have a little puffy hair but in general the later generations just look white. Now, in my case, my family has had the swarthy look for hundreds of years. I think this implies that BOTH sets parents carry the DNA. I think it's that good old fashioned Britannia DNA (my theory) Before the celts, before the saxons etc and for this reason the swarthy look has never been "bred out".
-
Some distribution maps for hair and eye color in Europe. [I myself have dark hair and dark eyes].
https://unsafeharbour.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/distribution-of-light-hair-and-eyes-in-europe/
-
The Scott line of my ancestors hailed from Shetland and I have traced them back as far as into the seventeenth century. According to family legend, some of them had "dark hair and swarthy skin." I don't suppose anyone has ever heard of this occurrence in Shetland? Some of the family were not Scottish, but came from somewhere else, after their ship, which was emigrating to America, was wrecked - supposedly at Vaila Sound. This would seem to indicate the Bachelor of Leith, but according to all the records, everyone in our family tree was born in Shetland and certainly all have Shetland names (this ship was sailing from Caithnes and Sutherland in 1774). Also, I was wondering if the ancestors with dark hair and swarthy skin could have been descended from sailors of the Spanish Armada??
The member of the family who is said to have been shipwrecked has been potentially identified as Lilias Bain, born in 1760 and married to Peter Peterson, but again this has still to be independently verified...
The Spanish didn't have much influence on the British Isles at all - it has been found. Much more likely to be Egyptian. Ancient Egyptians were coming to Britain from at least the Bronze age - we know from Egyptian ships in the Humber, 'Iberian' i.e. Mediterranean skeletal remains with dolichocephalous skulls, Egyptian jewellery, and mainly ydna. The prominent ydna in all of Britain is R1b1a2 and this is the same ydna found in the 18th Dynasty mummies of David and Solomon. There are two Irish legends which match Egyptian names - exact names of Kings as given in cartouches, but in Irish legend and the other is that Ireland was once conquered by a people known as Tuath (Egyptian Duat) Dedanaan (Egyptian Tatanen) names which have exactly the same meaning. There is also the legend of the Princess Scota and that would have to be the God Name Skhety - Goddess of the Marshes and common people.
Now it looks like it was the Brits who planned the Pyramids - from what has been found in the Thornborough Henges which are like the Giza Pyramids very accurate positioning to represent Orion's Belt. Thing is the Thornborough Henges are thousands of years older and one pit has been radio-carbon dated back 35,000 years.
So you will I reckon be a product of Ancient Egypt.
-
Another film star springs to mind is the late Gregory Peck who mentioned that his colourings came from the "Black Irish" side of his father's Irish ancestors.
All the way from 'dark and swarthy' East Anglia, apparently.
-
Chris, I read somewhere though that the genes which result in the classic features of various races can" lie dormant" for want of a better description, and can appear in later generations.
If true , can you imagine the puzzlement of people in earlier times who would not understand
why a baby seemed to be of a different race. Especially if they had no knowledge of there being a different race in an earlier generation. Try explaining that,what stigma would attach to it when people were so prejudiced. How sad.
As usual I am willing to be corrected.Viktoria.
-
Another film star springs to mind is the late Gregory Peck who mentioned that his colourings came from the "Black Irish" side of his father's Irish ancestors.
All the way from 'dark and swarthy' East Anglia, apparently.
I think Adam is correct. He had Kerry roots :)
-
Interesting stuff but I'm not sure I believe it, let me explain why
A spaniard breeding with a native scot and hundreds of years later his features are still around? Even when a black african mixes with a white, in just a few generations the "blackness" is almost completely gone. They might have a little puffy hair but in general the later generations just look white. Now, in my case, my family has had the swarthy look for hundreds of years. I think this implies that BOTH sets parents carry the DNA. I think it's that good old fashioned Britannia DNA (my theory) Before the celts, before the saxons etc and for this reason the swarthy look has never been "bred out".
I agree with your general point about most peoples ancestors being Celtic or pre Celtic to the British Isles/Ireland.
There seems to be a fashion, and this is especially true in the USA, to make any Irish/Scots ancestors somehow ethnically different to the English. This is why there are so many myths floating around with regard to 'Basque', ' the Spanish Armarda' and even 'Egyptian' ancestry. None of it actually proven to be true. The Irish and Scots are not much different ethnically to the rest of the North Western European population.
The need to make their ancestors different to the English is probably more tied up with political ideas about identity, rather than based in fact. During the 18th and 19th centuries there was a tendency to exaggerate and romanticise 'Celt' and 'Anglo-Saxon' heritage and history. Before that time it was hardly mentioned in history books, novels and literature at all.
Terms like 'Anglo Saxon' and 'Celt' refer to time periods and language, they are not so much about an actual separate ethnic people. If someone was buried in a 'Celt' or 'Anglo- Saxon' type grave, it does not necessarily follow that they were of that, supposed, 'ethnic' group.
-
The Scots & Irish are indeed ethnically different to the English whatever their DNA. Most of the men in Ulster have a common ancestor (Niall of the Nine Hostages) whose DNA spread to Scotland (the clue is in the name) around the year 500 (I'm one myself!) Bringing Gaelic with them.
I suspect that any attempts to make a case for a shared ethnicity with the English are part of a Brexit plot that we're all in this together. Which we aint! ;D
Skoosh.
Ethnicity=having a common national or cultural tradition! not to be confused with genetic commonality!
-
I think Adam is correct. He had Kerry roots :)
Not according to this?
https://www.geni.com/people/Gregory-Peck/308562816060006485
And the surname Peck, as with the tree above, seems to have it's origins in East Anglia.
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/
The Scots & Irish are indeed ethnically different to the English whatever their DNA.
In what way?
Most of the men in Ulster have a common ancestor (Niall of the Nine Hostages) whose DNA spread to Scotland (the clue is in the name) around the year 500 (I'm one myself!) Bringing Gaelic with them.
Was 'Niall of the Nine Hostages' a real person though or was he a mythical character, much like 'King Arthur' was in Britain.
-
Niall was the real deal, try Google. What way are the Swedes ethnically different from the Danes? ethnicity is what makes nations, nations, the fact that Scotland had an enforced union with England since 1707 does not mean that we have a shared ethnicity, we don't. The English have a somewhat confused ethnicity, they confuse English with British which is not quite the same thing. What is British? something on a passport!
Skoosh.
-
Niall was the real deal, try Google.
I have and, like King Arthur, there doesn't seem to be much proof that he actually existed as a real person.
What way are the Swedes ethnically different from the Danes? ethnicity is what makes nations, nations,
The USA is a 'nation, and had people from all over the world who settled there
the fact that Scotland had an enforced union with England since 1707 does not mean that we have a shared ethnicity, we don't.
'enforced' ? ???
The English have a somewhat confused ethnicity, they confuse English with British which is not quite the same thing. What is British? something on a passport!
We really don't. It is more the case that people from outside Britain and Ireland confuse the two, but not here in England
-
Chris, I read somewhere though that the genes which result in the classic features of various races can" lie dormant" for want of a better description, and can appear in later generations.
If true , can you imagine the puzzlement of people in earlier times who would not understand
why a baby seemed to be of a different race. Especially if they had no knowledge of there being a different race in an earlier generation. Try explaining that,what stigma would attach to it when people were so prejudiced. How sad.
As usual I am willing to be corrected.Viktoria.
I think what you are describing is rare. Someone taking DNA from a random ancestor or inheriting a bygone genetic disease... It's one in a million.
I am talking about how generation after generation the swarthy look has survived. My profile picture of my great great grandad.... I look exactly like him.
The only explanation is that British women carry the DNA also.
For example, white people don't have Afro-hair genetics, so Afro hair would be quite easily "bred out" in just a few generations.
That's my thinking on it, I could be wrong :)
-
I am sure I read somewhere that the genes which make up specific racial features can" lie dormant"
for want of a better expression--when the distinctive features had become less and almost gone completely, ,only to appear in much later generations.
Imagine the consternation if that did happen, especially if it had not been known of the inter-racial liason many years before,and especially when people were so prejudiced.
We know plantation owners had "liasons " with female slaves but seldom is it the other way round,
Southern belle having a liason with a male slave.
But there may be a few recorded instances I imagine.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.On all points.
I hate the word slave , one human being cannot be owned by another, but some people--even today-- thought and think they could and can.
Sorry that`s off topic but I have no wish to upset or insult anyone.Viktoria.
-
Sorry folks, my first post disappeared into the ether----It posted itself seemingly ::)
My brief stab at brevity did not last long did it!
Hence the longer version.Viktoria.
-
Thank you Malcolm: the most interesting thing to come out of this discussion (though I suspect you mean yDNA).
And of course Moses was Egyptian: it's not a Hebrew name, but why he led the Hebrew slaves in a mass escape is not explained. Or is it? One theory of why Pharaoh's daughter found him in the bulrushes is that he was her brother and she'd hidden him there for safety. Sorry: that's another story.
-
Niall of the Nine Hostages, we're talking about the dark ages here so no newspaper reports!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the-Nine_Hostages
I think a shared experience, history & culture has given the US, a new nation, an ethnicity of it's own? Ethnicity & race are not the same thing.
The 1707 Union was voted through the Scots Parliament by the nobility while the people rioted against it, the unpopularity of the Union & the Hanoverian Succession which came with it, gave rise to the Jacobite Rebellions of 1715, 1719 & 1745. There was also a military threat at the time of the signing i,e John Churchill & his army being used to restore "Order!"
Skoosh.
-
I think Adam is correct. He had Kerry roots :)
Not according to this?
https://www.geni.com/people/Gregory-Peck/308562816060006485
And the surname Peck, as with the tree above, seems to have it's origins in East Anglia.
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/
Thanks Sally. That site does show his mother was Irish - I recall reading it last year when I was researching the Easter Rising -it was the Ashe family.
However his father was English.
I just checked it out again and there are a couple of articles about him and the 'black Irish'.
-
I think Adam is correct. He had Kerry roots :)
Not according to this?
https://www.geni.com/people/Gregory-Peck/308562816060006485
And the surname Peck, as with the tree above, seems to have it's origins in East Anglia.
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/
Thanks Sally. That site does show his mother was Irish - I recall reading it last year when I was researching the Easter Rising -it was the Ashe family.
However his father was English.
I just checked it out again and there are a couple of articles about him and the 'black Irish'.
Hi heywood, not sure if I'm reading it right but his mother is listed as Bernice Mae Ayres, born in Missouri.
Her father John D Ayres born in Missouri
Her mother Kate E Ayres (nee?) born in Pennsylvania
(places of birth from census)
But wiki says
'Eldred Gregory Peck was born on April 5, 1916, in La Jolla, San Diego, California, the son of Gregory Pearl Peck, a New York-born chemist and pharmacist, and his Missouri-born wife Bernice Mary "Bunny" (née Ayres).[2] His father was of English (paternal) and Irish (maternal) heritage[3][4] and his mother of English and Scots ancestry.[5]'
It's all a bit confusing
-
The 1707 Union was voted through the Scots Parliament by the nobility while the people rioted against it, the unpopularity of the Union & the Hanoverian Succession which came with it, gave rise to the Jacobite Rebellions of 1715, 1719 & 1745. There was also a military threat at the time of the signing i,e John Churchill & his army being used to restore "Order!"
Skoosh.
It was all controlled by the 'nobility' back then and there were riots in England about unpopular parliamentary decisions too, a civil war even. But it still doesn't change the fact that the Acts of Union 1707 was a legal union agreed between two countries. It wasn't 'enforced' on Scotland, the Scottish parliament wanted it
-
Oh no--Miriam was Moses` sister and because he WAS a Hebrew and male,and Pharaoh had told all the Egyptian Midwives to kill all male Hebrew babies because the Hebrews were multiplying faster than the Egyptians,he would have been killed at birth so his birth was kept a secret.
But the Hebrew women did not have midwives and so when Moses mother had him she hid him for three months `but then he was too lively and so she made a watertight cradle and hid it by the river under the bulrushes.Miriam his sister was supposed to look after him but naturally was afraid of the Egyptians.
When Pharoahs` daughter went to bathe she saw the cradle and took the baby.
Miriam had the presence of mind to offer to look after the baby, she did not tell Pharaoh`s daughter she was his brother
.He would have been killed ordinarily but Pharaoh`s daughter wanted him and adopted him even though she realised he was a Hebrew.He was brought up as an Egyptian and his real mother was hired to feed him .
But he did lead The Hebrews out of captivity because they were used as slaves and cruelly treated.
I loved that story in Sunday school, so much so that my little doll was Moses and the big one was Miriam . Moses slept in my aunties` needlework basket, a bit like the cradle in the bulrushes.
Viktoria.
-
I don't think mythological figures offer much useful evidence.
-
The story of Moses is I`m sure mentioned in Egyptian records.
Seem to remember a T.V programme about it.Ages ago.Pharaoh was Rameses if I remember correctly. He was real.Not mythological at all- big statues to prove it ;D
Viktoria.
-
Hi Sally,
Apologies! It was his granny!
She was Catherine Ashe - his father's mother from County Kerry.
Heywood
-
The Scottish Parliament voted for the Union as the "Parcel of Rogues" (Robert Burns) accepted English gold, they had probably no alternative as the English navigation Acts prohibited Scotch shipping, acts against the importation of Scotch Linen & also a ban on Scotch cattle which would have destroyed the Highland economy. Britannia, as ever, waived the rules.
Skoosh.
-
"big statues to prove it"
Yikes! There's a statue of Hercules fighting the Hydra, too, but, as far as I know, no one has claimed it as proof of the existence of Hercules or of the Loch Ness monster.
-
It was a joke Erato- hence the grin .
Viktoria
-
Something that people often forget is that the Romans often commented on the 'Britons' being 'dark' in hair eyes and skin (also that the women were attractive and the men liked beards) - and the Spanish roots for the 'black Irish' thing has been shown, genetically, to be a myth, I think about 4 out of 500 survived one armada wreck so those 4 men would have had to have been rather prolific... ;D
-
Something that people often forget is that the Romans often commented on the 'Britons' being 'dark' in hair eyes and skin (also that the women were attractive and the men liked beards) - and the Spanish roots for the 'black Irish' thing has been shown, genetically, to be a myth, I think about 4 out of 500 survived one armada wreck so those 4 men would have had to have been rather prolific... ;D
Exactly
-
Ole' ;D
Skoosh.
-
Niall of the Nine Hostages, we're talking about the dark ages here so no newspaper reports!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the-Nine_Hostages
I think a shared experience, history & culture has given the US, a new nation, an ethnicity of it's own? Ethnicity & race are not the same thing.
The 1707 Union was voted through the Scots Parliament by the nobility while the people rioted against it, the unpopularity of the Union & the Hanoverian Succession which came with it, gave rise to the Jacobite Rebellions of 1715, 1719 & 1745. There was also a military threat at the time of the signing i,e John Churchill & his army being used to restore "Order!"
Skoosh.
The Churchill clan has later form at that. Tonypandy, Sydney Street etc. etc.
-
Something that people often forget is that the Romans often commented on the 'Britons' being 'dark' in hair eyes and skin (also that the women were attractive and the men liked beards) - and the Spanish roots for the 'black Irish' thing has been shown, genetically, to be a myth, I think about 4 out of 500 survived one armada wreck so those 4 men would have had to have been rather prolific... ;D
Exactly
This post made me laugh! it could read as though the women had beards-which the men liked ::)
Not often you see a Roman statue with a beard , was it usual for the Roman army to have facial hair?I can imagine the romans banning it.
I`ll leave the women out of it!!!!!
Viktoria.
-
Thank you, Viktoria.
It now makes sense that Moses was given an Egyptian name, to conceal his identity.
It's tempting to think that the Romans regarded beards as barbarian, hence the similarity of the words. But apparently the Greek barbaros meant babbler (because of course foreigners spoke a different language), while Latin barba is quite a different root. Of course the Romans may well have seen it as more civilized to shave -- which the Keltoi and Germani and the rest considered quite unnecessary or even effeminate.
-
Well Pharaoh`s daughter knew he was a Hebrew but Pharaoh would not have known or Moses would have been killed.
AS you say ,The Greeks called anyone who did not speak Greek, a barbarian " .
In Flemish the word "Babbelar"means a chatterbox, like a small child as we would say "babbling on"
.Also as we say" prattling", and in Flemish to praat is to talk, a prater is a talker.
Interesting links in different languages.
Viktoria.
-
This post made me laugh! it could read as though the women had beards-which the men liked ::)
Not often you see a Roman statue with a beard , was it usual for the Roman army to have facial hair?I can imagine the romans banning it.
I`ll leave the women out of it!!!!!
Viktoria.
Lol! You never know... ;D
You're right the Roman's did indeed prefer to be clean shaven (I think in the army even then it was a requirement) which is, I suppose, why a few of them commented on the 'Briton's' propensity for having them.
-
Hi Sally,
Apologies! It was his granny!
She was Catherine Ashe - his father's mother from County Kerry.
Heywood
No worries, the info on wiki and the tree I posted is confusing
-
Not sure why people from the Shetlands wouldn't have 'dark hair and swarthy skin' in particular.
I had an in law who was extremely dark and swarthy, as were his parents, and his family were from rural North Yorkshire going back centuries. All the lines in the tree had local surnames commonly found in the local parish registers.
One of my own lines, ag labs from the rural areas around York, were very dark and swarthy too.
The singer Bjork is from Iceland and she is quite dark.
Hi sallyyorks - I landed on this thread because there's a similar thread about DNA that we're both contributing to. Additionally I was born and bred in Yorkshire hence my interest in your contribution. :D
Yorkshire was supposed to have been laid waste by William the Conqueror from Normandy, known as "The Harrying Of The North". Contemporary chronicles record the savagery of the campaign, the huge scale of the destruction and the widespread famine caused by looting, burning and slaughtering. He was the king who introduced surnames in 1068.
-
Not sure why people from the Shetlands wouldn't have 'dark hair and swarthy skin' in particular.
I had an in law who was extremely dark and swarthy, as were his parents, and his family were from rural North Yorkshire going back centuries. All the lines in the tree had local surnames commonly found in the local parish registers.
One of my own lines, ag labs from the rural areas around York, were very dark and swarthy too.
The singer Bjork is from Iceland and she is quite dark.
Hi sallyyorks - I landed on this thread because there's a similar thread about DNA that we're both contributing to. Additionally I was born and bred in Yorkshire hence my interest in your contribution. :D
Yorkshire was supposed to have been laid waste by William the Conqueror from Normandy, known as "The Harrying Of The North". Contemporary chronicles record the savagery of the campaign, the huge scale of the destruction and the widespread famine caused by looting, burning and slaughtering. He was the king who introduced surnames in 1068.
Yes The Harrying was probably worse in Yorkshire. I believe William mentioned his regrets about it on his death bed, and he mentioned Yorkshire/the area in particular.
Just posted this in the other topic about the Oxford University/Wellcome Trust DNA research/findings. West Yorkshire stands out in the map, it seems to be the area once known as Elmet, could be a coincidence or not. Interesting study.
Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics Who do you think you really are?
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/who-do-you-think-you-really-are
'The analyses suggest there was a substantial migration across the channel after the original post-ice-age settlers, but before Roman times. DNA from these migrants spread across England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, but had little impact in Wales. These migrations, probably over many years, are probably the largest single contributor to the DNA of much of modern England, but effectively nothing is known about them.'
(The other rootschat topic mentioned)
Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=776883.0
-
The Scottish Parliament voted for the Union as the "Parcel of Rogues" (Robert Burns) accepted English gold, they had probably no alternative as the English navigation Acts prohibited Scotch shipping, acts against the importation of Scotch Linen & also a ban on Scotch cattle which would have destroyed the Highland economy. Britannia, as ever, waived the rules.
Skoosh.
'Robert Burns'?
Ah well, you might have a point there Skoosh, because he practically invented 'Scottishness' didn't he ? ;)
-
No he didn't Sally, Scotland has lots of poets who pre-dated Burns, although none as good in my humble opinion. Unfortunately England & English-ness died in 1066 & was replaced by a Norman slave-state which the conquerors owned lock stock & barrel & has been a damned nuisance to its neighbours ever since.
Skoosh.
-
(http://I think the Spanish thing is largely mythology.) Many Scots are swarthy, we're a very mixed breed. Shetland has been settled by Scots since before it was aquired by the Scottish crown. Scott is a common name in the Borders and there are Shetland landowners of that origin.
Skoosh.
Coincidentally, two different am. researchers of my father-in-law's Bamff/Aberdeenshire line that I'm following have the same story that one of their ancestors was a refugee from the Spanish Armada. This story hasn't been handed down by descendants in the male line that I'm following, thus I'm supposing that the ancestor was the father of a bride.
Coincidentally too, my OH and his father both had olive skin and black hair, which presumably could be called "swarthy". I was supposing that it was inherited millenia ago when the Romans and their slaves came to the mainland of the British Isles but since coming upon this thread, I'm now wondering if my OH's Morayshire sailors lines (Findlay/Marshall) could have originated further north.
-
Could be Rena, some "Ross-shire Seaboard" fisherfolk's descendants are as black as the back of the fire! The Paterson's even claim descent from a seal! ;D
Skoosh.
-
Could be Rena, some "Ross-shire Seaboard" fisherfolk's descendants are as black as the back of the fire! The Paterson's even claim descent from a seal! ;D
Skoosh.
Interesting, but the OH's Moray sailor, James Findlay, was actually a ship's carpenter born in late 1700s and I don't know whether he sailed on ships registered in Aberdeen or helped built them in Aberdeen.
It's my dad's folk who hailed from the Black Isle and if everyone was mostly swarthy, my line must have stuck out like a sore thumb ;D
-
The reason it's known as "The Black Isle" surely.
-
The reason it's known as "The Black Isle" surely.
I think it's because during winter time snow doesn't lay on the peninsular (it isn't exactly an island) and it looks black against the snow which lays on the mainland behind it.
-
Rena, my own folk were from Fearn & Urray, so Gaelic speakers, the Black Isle was predominantly Scots spoken so different folk, the Paterson's were from the Black Isle & probably wouldn't thank you for a reminder of their seal ancestry! ;D
Off to the Heilans masel at the top o the day, as they say in the north, forecast lousy but the Summer's been the same anyhow.
Slainte'
Skoosh.
-
Dont get lost Skoosh
-
"I once was lost but now am found!" ;D
Back home unskaithed, weather as expected but meteor showers one night!
Skoosh.
-
Rena, my own folk were from Fearn & Urray, so Gaelic speakers, the Black Isle was predominantly Scots spoken so different folk, the Paterson's were from the Black Isle & probably wouldn't thank you for a reminder of their seal ancestry! ;D
Off to the Heilans masel at the top o the day, as they say in the north, forecast lousy but the Summer's been the same anyhow.
Slainte'
Skoosh.
I came back yesterday from a fortnight in the Heilans and yes, it rained every day. Not all day, but every day. Midgies were something fierce too. We had some cracking days on the Assynt hills though, Ben Hope, Ben Klibrick and another half dozen around the Ullapool area.
Hope your weather turns out better than ours.
Edit. Oops - I see you're already back too.
-
Rena, my own folk were from Fearn & Urray, so Gaelic speakers, the Black Isle was predominantly Scots spoken so different folk, the Paterson's were from the Black Isle & probably wouldn't thank you for a reminder of their seal ancestry! ;D
Slainte'
Skoosh.
lol @ the "seal" remark.
I don't know what Donald M'Kenzie born in Urray looked like and I have no idea where hisparents were from, but I have an idea of the features of one of his sons Ken M'kenzie were when he was middle aged. A drawing is attached below and for familial comparison I've also attached a photo of his sister Jane's blue eyed son aged sixty ( my Glaswegian grandfather). Somewhere along the line, the swarthy highlander looks have vanished.
-
Hi Rena,
There's an uncanny likeness there in the features!!!
I have been reading this thread & only last night was discussing different place names on the Scottish Islands relating to the Vikings etc.
However, one of the links I was sent...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
It's an interesting read which I haven't read all of but within that link there's...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas#The_three_corners_of_Britain:_Kantion.2C_Belerion_and_Orkas
& this...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shetland
I have the intention of enjoying reading this over the next few weeks as there's a lot to take in with no bookmarker :P
Annie
-
Good Pic and great drawing.
As previously mentioned can see the family likeness - easily.
Dark and brooody - TV show Shetland was broadcast on ABC in Australia last night.
It fits well with the current conversation.
Keep up the good work.
cheers
jack Gee
-
Thanks for your opinions Annie and Jack. I can't see it myself. But now that I've further examined Ken M'K, it's struck me that he does look like my late Uncle Stenie and these latter years my younger brother Peter McK has been transformed by age to look like Ken and Stenie aswell.