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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: suds on Thursday 29 December 11 12:17 GMT (UK)
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Hello
Whilst looking into some distant ancestors in Ireland, I came across the following on Googlebooks:
Harris (Lakeview, Blackrock, co. Cork) confirmed to William Prittie Harris, Esq, of that place (of the family of Harris, of Assolas, co. Cork), son of the late William Harris, of Kilbarney, and grandson of Richard Harris of Lisgriffin Castle, co. Cork, and their descendents. Az. A chev. Betw. Three hedgehogs or, on a chief ar. As many cinquefoils pierced gu. Crest - A demi lion ramp. Or, holding betw. The paws a cinquefoil pierced gu. Motto - Industria veritas et hospitalis
The book I was looking at was:
The General armory of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Comprising a registry of armorial bearings from the earliest to the present time
Bernard Burke
I would be grateful for a translation of the above to give me an idea of what the arms look like and if anyone could provide a picture I would be more than happy.
Suds
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:D
Hi,
I love heraldry but am only a beginner ... so here is my attempt while you wait for the experts to come along.
Az = azure = blue. Chev = chevron. Or = gold. Chief = the top third downwards. Ar = argent = silver. As many = I'm not sure how many there should be?? Cinquefoils = 5 leaved. Pierced = with the hole in the middle. Gu = gules = red.
I’m not sure how to draw the crest – but "a demi lion rampant" would be the top half of a lion with his paws in the air – and I think he will be gold, holding a red pierced cinquefoil between his upraised paws – but I’m sure someone who knows much much more than me will be along to help you! (The lion is probably on top and the motto below?)
I've never seen hedgehogs on arms before - they are so cute - the ones on my picture below are crawling along - but I don't know if they really would be in that position.
I look forward to seeing what it really looks like! :o
Liz
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Thanks for that gataki. You've made an impressive effort.
It looks good and I would be happy if it turns out that way.
suds
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As many = I'm not sure how many there should be??
The same as the nearest previous number; in this case, the same as the number of hedgehogs = 3.
David
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Az. A chev. Betw. Three hedgehogs or, on a chief ar. As many cinquefoils pierced gu. Crest - A demi lion ramp. Or, holding betw. The paws a cinquefoil pierced gu.
Azure a chevron between three hedgehogs or on a chief argent as many cinquefoils pierced gules.
On a blue shield, a gold or yellow chevron (an inverted V which extends to both sides of the shield) between three gold or yellow hedgehogs, on a white horizontal stripe filling the top of the shield three red stylized five-petaled flowers with a hole in the center (so the white of the underlying chief shows through).
A demi-lion rampant or holding between the paws a cinquefoil pierced gules.
The front half of a gold lion erect, holding in its paws a red stylized five-petaled flower with a hole in the center (as in the arms).
I've attached a couple of very rough drawings adapted from some heraldic clipart of the shield and the crest for you.
The arms are "canting", that is to say, they are a pun on the surname. The French for "hedgehog" is "herrison", which sounds a lot like Harris.
I hope that all of this is helpful
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:D
Thank you David. That's really interesting! :D
Liz
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Thank you david.
That's really interesting.
Can I take this a bit further. What would be required for someone to be awarded arms? Who would design them?
suds
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I've just noticed and am a bit embarrassed that I've parrotted Liz's response exactly.
All I can say is "Great minds........"
sorry
suds
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Can I take this a bit further. What would be required for someone to be awarded arms? Who would design them?
The main requirement for someone to be granted a coat of arms is the ability to pay the necessary fees, along with a certain "eminence", which has been defined in different ways by different authorities over the years. As a general rule, having a college degree or a commission as an officer in the military is quite sufficient. It probably helps if you have never been convicted of a major crime.
As for who would design them, that depends entirely upon where you live. While every heraldic authority of which I am aware pays close attention to the desires of the client in trying to get them what they desire, there are other factors in play (such as, does the design look too much like someone else's coat of arms?) The main heraldic authorities are, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the College of Arms in London. In Scotland, the Court of the Lord Lyon in Edinborough. In Ireland, the Office of the Chief Herald in Dublin. In Canada, the Canadian Heraldic Authority. In South Africa, the office of the State Herald. Most other countries do not have an heraldic authority which grants, registers, or regulates personal arms, though many countries have one or more unofficial registry bodies which will help to design coats of arms and register them for individuals.
David
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David
Many thanks once again.
So, are we to assume that the arms in your signature are canting since they display apples? I think I 'm getting the hang of it.
If you don't mind, a further qestion.
In my original post I referred to Harris of Lakeview, Blackrock. The last male Harris was Richard Harris (died 1879). He had two daughters. I have his will, it makes no reference to the arms, can I assume that the right to the arms died with him since he had no male heirs?
suds
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So, are we to assume that the arms in your signature are canting since they display apples? I think I 'm getting the hang of it.
Got it in one! Yes, the arms are canting. As is the crest, an apple tree fructed (with fruit, in this case apples). The motto completes the pun, being the Latin for "By their fruits shall you know them." Or as I like to sometimes think of it, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree."
In my original post I referred to Harris of Lakeview, Blackrock. The last male Harris was Richard Harris (died 1879). He had two daughters. I have his will, it makes no reference to the arms, can I assume that the right to the arms died with him since he had no male heirs?
Not necessarily. The right to the undifferenced arms died out when Richard Harris did, but if either or both of his daughters had married someone who was armigerous (who had a coat of arms), then their children would have the right to quarter the Harris arms (in the upper right and lower left of the shield) with their father's arms (in the upper left and lower right of the shield), and thus carry on the arms that way.
David
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David
Thanks so much for your information.
My gggrandfather married three times. I descend from the middle marriage. His youngest son (from the third marriage) married Rachael Harris, daughter of Richard. I am in touch with their descendants in Australia. I'm sure they'll be tickled pink.
So although I am not a direct descendant of the Harrises, the information is very interesting.
Many thanks
suds
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You are very welcome! I'm glad that I was able to help.
David