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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: tkgafs on Friday 06 January 12 10:18 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know where Nanmill is ?
in the Urr opr there are the following two entries
John Gordon lawful son of James Kinna and Ravenscroft McMillan was born at Nanmill 2nd March and baptised 20th March
and
John Gordon Kinna died 01/01/1836 at Nammill aged 7 months
I presume that Nanmill must be somewhere in the URR parish, but it may possibly be somewhere near Twynholm or Borgue
I am interested as there are also the following two entries in the URR oprs
25/03/1830 Douglas lawful son of James Kinna and Ravenscroft McMillan was born in Twynholm
25/08/1832 - Alexander lawful son of James Kinna and Ravenscroft McMillan was born in Twynholm
I cant see any reason why these are being announced in URR oprs as the father James Kinna was born in Borgue 01/09/1789 and the mother Ravenscroft McMillan was apparently born in Minnigaff between 1789 - 1795, although I cant find a birth record for her
but strangely their wedding was recorded in Twynholm OPRs as follows
1812 Twynholm OPR - Nov 27, James McKinna and Ravenscroft McMillan were regularly proclaimed here and married this day in Minnigaff, but there does not seem to be a record of it taking place in Minnigaff !!
If anyone can help shed some light why these odd entries pop up in different parishes I'd be very grateful
thanks
Tkgafs
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I wonder in Nanmill could be Nunmill down the sandside road outside Kirkcudbright
Tkgafs
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Hi
The baptism took place in the parish of Twynholm so I assume that Nanhill is in that parish rather than Urr. Not sure why you thought it was Urr :-\
Re their marriage. What you see in Scotland is an entry for proclamation of Banns, rather than marriages. Often the date/place of marriage is recorded with the Banns. These had to be proclaimed in both the parishes where the bride and groom were living at the time. They would then be married in just one parish.
I'm not sure but I think that the Minnigaff records might not be complete for that time. You can check on the GROS site for their availability:
http://www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/pdf/list-of-oprs-855to901.pdf
Added - just checked and Minnigaff marriages/banns seem to be there :-\
gnu
PS - I've been looking at old maps on the Nat Lib of Scotland map site but so far can't find Nanmill:
http://geo.nls.uk/search/mosaic/
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Hi again
i've looked at the baptisms for children of James and Ravenscroft 1820-1840 and they are all in Twynholm, including Douglas and Alexander. I attach a snip from the Twynholm parish records for you to see.
The only entry for a Kinna (variations) in Urr during this time was for a Margaret Kinna in 1831 with parents William Kinna and Mary Irvine.
What was your source for the Urr parish records?
Added - I think it was from an Ancestry tree :-X I've just checked in the Urr records for 1830 and there is no entry that I can see. The only record is the one that I've found in Twynholm.
gnu
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Hello Gnu,
thanks for the updates
my info came from the following Mcmillan website http://www.johnmacmillan.co.uk/opr/opr_urr_b.html
I have to presume the owner has made an error, as I said I couldn't understand why they would be mentioned in the Urr records as I can see no obvious connection to the place.
I have just remembered, I am sure there is a place near The Dhoon called Nunmill, which would make much more sense. I think this is probably within Twynholm parish.
But of course the real goal is to find the actual marriage record of Ravenscroft McMillan and James Kinna in the Minnigaff records and then to find Ravenscroft's birth record, she died in 1883 in Borgue but her death record does not record her parents, it gives her an age of 94 which would give a birth year of around 1789, the various census records give a birth year of between 1790 & 1795 and she consistently says she is born in Minnigaff
I have tried various searches on Scotlands people but found nothing that looks like it might be her
any help gratefully received
Tkgafs
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Hi
I've done a wider search to see if I could get any info from their children's names. I've come up with these baptisms for them ~
1816 Elizabeth Lorimer(Minnigaff)
1823 Thomas (Borgue)
1825 Margaret (Borgue)
1827 Agness (Twynholm)
1830 Douglas (Twynholm)
1832 Alexander (Twynholm)
1835 John Gordon (Twynholm)
there seems to be a few gaps so they could have had other children.
Do you have details of James' parents?
gnu
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Take this with a large pinch of salt, as I've not found anything to substantiate the claim, but two of those trees has her parents as William McMillan and Mary McLure.
I'll see if I can find anything more.
gnu
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Gnu,
I think they have these other children in addition to the ones you listed
Catherine McKenna - Minnigaff 15/11/1813
Mary Kinna - Culmazie Kirkinner 26/12/1819
James McGuffock Kinna - Culmazie Kirkinner 12/03/1821
John Gordon Kinna - Nunmill Twynholm 20/03/1835
Isabella Kinna - Twynholm 08/01/1838
I think there may be another daughter called Hannah born around 1822
I suspect that James Kinna is the twin of Alexander McKennay both baptised Borgue 1st September 1789 the sons of Thomas McKennay and Mary Houstone
Baptism 01/09/1789 Borgue as James McKennay son of Thomas McKennay and Mary Houstone
Alex and James, twins, lawf....to Thomas McKennay and Mary Houstone in Litle Carleton Bap Sept 1 1789.
James died 30th June 1847 in Borgue
in Wigton Free Press dated 8th July 1847
Death
KINNA, James - D30/6/1847 - At Borgue Village, near Kirkcudbright, on the 30th ultimo, after a lingering illness, Mr James Kinna, parish sexton.
His son in law a John McGaw who registers Ravenscrofts death in 1883 appears to take over the position
In 1851 census on Ancestry, Ravenscroft is listed as a pauper is it possible there would be any poor records which might help, [Parish: Borgue; ED: 5; Page: 1; Line: 14; Roll: CSSCT1851_211; Year: 1851.] the Ancestry transcription is particularly poor though and was very hard to find.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1851Scotland&indiv=try&h=2409435
My line comes down through Agnes Kinna who marries James Beattie in Borgue in 1851
Thanks for your interest and assistance
Tkgafs
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Take this with a large pinch of salt, as I've not found anything to substantiate the claim, but two of those trees has her parents as William McMillan and Mary McLure.
I'll see if I can find anything more.
gnu
I would guess that one of the trees may well be mine and yes there is nothing to substantiate it, I have been trying for a few years to find evidence for this claim which I found on a beattie tree which for the most part was fairly accurate, my tree is called simpson
Tkgafs
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Re the 1851 census
You could try here:
http://www.dgcommunity.net/historicalindexes/census.aspx
Transcriptions but probably better than the ones you've looked at. Otherwise, they will be on FindMyPast and, possibly, the family search site and the usual films at records offices.
gnu
Re your last post - so why didn't you say that her parents might be them? It's always best to give full information so that we can have all the information.
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Have you checked the MIs?
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I have checked the online ones on old-kirkyards but that is all
I didn't mention her parents names as I have absolutely no evidence that they are her parents despite plenty of looking
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Nothing so far in my booklets but there are two mentions of the surname Ravenscroft in the Minigaff MIs. They might be worth following up -
* Jane Ravenscroft Taylor (d. Lanarkshire 1894, aged 58) m. a John Matthews (d. Newton Stewart 1873, aged 61)
* William Dunbar, land surveyor, Cree Bridge d 1818, aged 82 wife Margaret Scott, d. 1792, aged 40. 1st daughter, Ravenscroft, d. 1819, aged 44. A note on this one that mentions a Dr John Ravenscroft of Cairnsmoor - will 1783, Wigtown.
She might have been named for him or it could be a family name. I think it's worth checking.
gnu
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I agree the Dr John Ravenscroft name is worth pursuing, although if that's the date of his will its probably a bit before her birth, but the location is reasonable.
I did some time last year create a spreadsheet of all the McMillans in Minnigaff but seem to have lost the file unfortunately, I didnt find another Ravenscroft born before her so I don't think its a family name
Tkgafs
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A search of the birth OPRs on scotlands people only specifying a forename of Ravenscroft, only turns up 2 hits both to the same record which is the birth of Ravenscroft Gaw daughter of John Gow and Elizabeth Kinna on 13/10/1844 in Borgue,
this child is Ravenscroft McMillans granddaughter
Tkgafs
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I have been reading through your posts and am interested in your James Kinna (spouse Ravenscroft McMillian).
As written in the posts, I believe he was twin to Alexander McKennay /son to Thomas McKennay & Mary Houstone; and brother to Thomas Kinnay**, (son to Thomas Kinnay and Mary Houston) who is in my direct line. Elizabeth Kinnay lists the same parents, and another sister Mary Kinna lists parents Thomas Kinna and Mary Houston.
**I found his Thomas KINNA Monumental Inscription and a photo of gravestone on that wonderful kirkyards.co.uk site I found through rootschat. The website also has inscription info/photos for James/Ravenscroft's son James Kinna (#13.04 Girthon Cemetery) and daughter Elizabeth Kinna (wife to John McGaw - #116 Borgue Cemetery).
Are you interested in sharing Kinna info? I have an ancestry tree called Kinna Grieve if you want to take a look....but I have yet to add all the info about the above mentioned folks... as I am still wrapping my head around the variants for Kinna...
Creekside
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Creekside,
I will definitely take a look at your tree, and if there is anything to share lets do so
I have the Elizabeth / John McGaw Mis but not the other two so will go and look at them now
Best wishes
Tkgafs
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I was back looking at the kirkyards site and found MIs for James Houstan/Barbara Jolly (Inscription 35 : Kirkandrews Churchyard). Other than that website, I don't know of any resources to find MIs for Kirkcudbright... can anyone direct me to another website, book, do a look-up, etc???
I am looking for info on Thomas Kinna/Mary Houston and they are not listed on the kirkyard website.
Thanks,
Creekside
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have a look at Inscription 44 : Kirkandrews Churchyard on the kirkyards site
it is the MI for William Houstain and Marrion Carson erected by their sons Andrew, David and William and also includes Andrew and his wife Jannet Bryce who are the grand-parents of Mary Houstone
Tkgafs
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I also have an Agness Kennah born 21 Apr 1796 in Borgue, Father Thomas Kennah who may be part of the family,
but I cant find any details for either Thomas or Elizabeth, being children of Thomas McKennay (or one of the many variants) and Mary Houstone, could you post some information if possible please
Tkgafs
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Hello again,
If you search on the OLD familysearch IGI and enter the info below, it should pop up (I copied the details below). The Alexander info was interesting... and I have yet to check if James McKennay's twin brother Alexander (born Sept. 1, 1789) passed away prior to 1794.... I have run across this with other families where the name is used again, if a child passes away.
I typically use origins.net to access the IGI listings (it links to the NEW IGI) and have gotten different results from when I use the old IGI so typically I check both now. Agness Kennah (thanks for that!) and other sibs. came up when I entered the same Kinnay/Houston info on the origins.net site but not the Kinnay info...??? To date, I haven't sent a msg. to FamilySearch but it has happened a few times....
Do you have any suggestions where I can search for MI info for Thomas Kinna/Mary Houston if it is not on the kirkyards site????
Cheers,
Creekside
COPIED FROM THE OLD IGI LINK:
Kirkcudbright, Scotland, British Isles
Father: Thomas Kinnay, Mother: Mary Houston
International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 4
Find more British records by searching on the
updated FamilySearch site. Click here...
Select records to download - (50 maximum)
1. MARY KINNAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 29 MAR 1802 Borgue, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
2. ELIZABETH KINNAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 27 AUG 1791 Borgue, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
3. ALEXR. KINNAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 20 FEB 1794 Borgue, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
4. THOMAS KINNAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 15 APR 1800 Borgue, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
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you may also find the following site useful, although as with all things online don’t believe everything you read
http://i-83-67-41-189.freedom2surf.net/fam/fam03023.html
but the dates it gives, which I have checked on Scotlands people are pretty much correct.
we have pretty much gone off the original topic here, but the other thing that is hard to cope with is the amount of Houstons which seem to marry Jollys, and it is becoming very difficult to work out family groupings
Do you have any suggestions where I can search for MI info for Thomas Kinna/Mary Houston if it is not on the kirkyards site?
I'm afraid not and I suspect that one might not actually exist, it may be worth starting a separate thread on that specific topic, in case another person has easy access to MI books
Tkgafs
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have a look at Inscription 44 : Kirkandrews Churchyard on the kirkyards site
it is the MI for William Houstain and Marrion Carson erected by their sons Andrew, David and William and also includes Andrew and his wife Jannet Bryce who are the grand-parents of Mary Houstone
I now think that this is incorrect and that the MI
from Monumental Inscriptions at Kirkandrews Old Kirkyard
Inscription 35
Erected by Samuel Houstan in Carleton in memory of Barbra Cowan, his spouse, who died Sept'r 25th 1791, aged 72 years. Also here lyes the corpse of the said Samuel Houstan, who died March the 23d 1793, aged 78 years. Also here lies Barbara Jolly, spouse to James Houstan of Bridgend of Killdarroch, who departed this life 13th August 1811, aged 59 years. The said James Houstan, who died at Bridgend, 3rd Feb’y 1831, aged 78 years.
confirms it
Familysearch also has the following
parents: Samuel Huston, Barbara Coan
name: James Huston 07 May 1752 BORGUE, KIRKCUDBRIGHT, SCOTLAND
sorry for any confusion
Tkgafs
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Thanks for the clarification. It's nice to share info but it will take me a few weekends to get the new family added to my tree :)
Thanks also for you suggestion to do a new post about my MI search for Thomas Kinna/Mary Houston so I will add that to the weekend list.
Bye for now,
Creekside
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Name
Elizabeth Lorimer Kenna
Gender
Female
Birth Date
25 Jun 1816
Birth Place
, Minnigaff, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
Baptism Place
, Minnigaff, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
Father
James Kenna
FHL Film Number
1068033
Reference ID
- 2:165ZPCT
Household Members
Name
Age
James Kenna
Elizabeth Lorimer Kenna
baptisim
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Hi, Fairly certain that Nanmill is Nunmill, in Twynholm parish
Ian McClumpha
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Hi, Fairly certain that Nanmill is Nunmill, in Twynholm parish
Ian McClumpha
Agree, Ian. This was found in the early posts but the thread seems to have moved on somewhat.
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My tree may be the other one! I am trying to work back to find where I got those names.