RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: roly on Tuesday 10 January 12 09:22 GMT (UK)
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Trying to locate an ancestor: Therise Ducie (unusual spelling of Christian name) who lived and worked for a time in the UK and was posted to BOAR (RAF Gatow) c. 1946. Since disappeared. Must be very aged now. Born c. 1916.
Did have a brother, Peter, who, as I undestand it, dieed on a building site in London (1950s, perhaps?)
I have found a few Ducies in various sources but there seem not to be any connections.
Can someone help me start this one off?
roly brown
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Have you any idea of what part of Ireland?
Was County Carlow ever mentioned as I saw and Esther Teresa Ducie b 1919 Carlow and a Peter Ducie b 1923 Carlow but there is no way of knowing if this is the same family.
Did she ever get married, so you could get the marriage cert for her father's name ?
Tara
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TaraMc...
It is exactly the problem that I have no idea in which part of Ireland TD was born. I had already spotted the Carlow possibility - the only one so far. As far as I know, around 1947, TD moved to France to marry.
The question surrounding her name is still unanswered. I have in my possession a letter written in 1947 in which she signs herself 'Therise' - there is no mistake. This may just discount the Esther Teresa line.
eoly
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According to www.familysearch.org the 1919 birth is for Eleanor Teresa Ducie not Esther. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F1MM-TW1
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Hi Aghadowey,
Thanks for clearing up that 'typo' - HA I must be needing glasses !
Hi Roly,
Therise 'may' be a french spelling of Theresa / Teresa - just a theory.
Hopefully you get a breakthrough soon !
Tara
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Thanks, Aghadowey...
One other point. The brother, Peter (and this is as I understand it: I can't confirm the details) had been employed in the building trade, like so many other Irish workers after WWII and, especially, during the 1950s. It doesn't preclude education, of course; but how is it that TD, the sister, got herself a job with BOAR? She spoke (I know this) fluent French and German and was, according to other information, actually working in a branch of British Intelligence before her posting to RAF Gatow, just outside Berlin, in 1946. Can we account for her education, then, in a family that might look, on the surface, to be centred in a primarily rural economy - and, so Peter's occupation implies, not well off?
Onwards and Sideways, then.
roly
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If the 1919 birth registration is for the correct person there is still a possibility she is alive and Rootschat isn't a forum for tracing living relatives.
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my name is Brighid ,you are looking for Eleanor Theresa DUCIE ? Married with a french man ? Her brother :Peter was dead in construction accident in London ?
I am her daughter !!!!! i m living in Paris .....PLEASE ....CONTACT ME
Regards .
Brighid .
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Once you've made three posts you can contact roly by PM (Personal Message) to exchange email addresses, recent family details, etc. which are not allowed to be posted online.
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Once you've made three posts you can contact roly by PM (Personal Message) to exchange email addresses, recent family details, etc. which are not allowed to be posted online.
thanks very much Aghadowey, for information ; I do not use internet very well :sorry ;how can i find the adresse of ROLY? i wonder who is searching my mother , dead in 2005 .
Regards.
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Make one more post and you will see a green paper under roly's name. Click on it and you can send him/her a personal message.
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Thanks to Roostchat, Brighid Ducie and I met here in France where we both live. Brighid is the daughter of Eleanor Teresa Ducie - yes: the census entry is the one - born 1919, Carlow.
However, in trying to trace family, the pair of us are stuck again. We know that Eleanor Teresa's brother, Peter, died in an accident on a building site. We have no details except that there is a record of the death of a Peter Ducie in 1964. We know that Eleanor Teres'a father's name was Michael - but here more uncertainty arises. Which Michael Ducie? We don't have a birth date. We also know that Michael married twice: but to whom and when?
My guess (looking at a few records that I've managed to unearth) is Michael F. Ducie. Other than that...
Others of the family emigrated - Michael's brother, James, for example. We don't know how many other brothers or sisters of Michael there were.
Can anyone help?
roly
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heres a possible marriage on Family Search.org
Michael Ducie
Jan March 1917 Carlow,Ireland.
vol 3 page 314
there are usually 4 matches on each page but i only found 3 with the same vol and page number,
Mary Anne Lalor,Brigid Moore and Clare McDonald.
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Dathai,
Just found out today that Michael Ducie married a Brigid Moore (I was informed - O'Moore). Does this correspond to the 1917 marriage that you found?
roly
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yes Brigid Moore is listed among the possible spouses above for 1917.
edit it is common for the O to be added or dropped in Irish surnames.
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Thanks, Daithi. I did try FamilySearch but 'it' claimed that no records for Michael Ducie existed. Mind - I'm dozy with technology and may have done something silly...although, in fairness, I tried variants.
You wouldnt happen to know if Michael had brothers? I thought that there was one, James, who emigrated to the States and possibly another, Dennis, who lived in the UK; but my sources are rather vague in attribution.
roly
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There is a Michael DUCIE on the 1901 census aged 13 in Carlow (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Carlow/Bridewell_lane/1040545/)
There is a good possibility, with an unusual name, that this is your Michael, especially when his Mother’s name is Teresa which links to Eleanor Teresa
By 1911, the mother has died and the father is living with four children, including a son Peter which also ties into family names on the 1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Carlow/Carlow_Urban/Bridewell_Lane/310732/)
Living on the same road, 48 Bridewell Road, Carlow in 1911 was a Bridget MOORE aged 20 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Carlow/Carlow_Urban/Bridewell_Lane/310770/) which would tie for a 1917 marriage
1901 record (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Carlow/Bridewell_lane/1040506/)
There is a death in 1924 of Brigid DUCIE (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTNR-F53) in Carlow
Investment in few certificates could give proof to some of these assumptions!
EDIT
just to say there is no obvious second marriage after the 1924 death
as Michael is not listed in Carlow at 1911 his marriage cert from 1917 could confirm
(1) if he was a widower - first marriage before that to Brigid
(2) an occupation or information as to where he was in 1911
PPS!
Marriage Reference (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYXZ-XMN)
I am finding familysearch.org hit and miss at the moment when searching
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Results for Duceys born in Carlow from 1880 to 1900 (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aducey~%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Bbirth_place%3Acarlow~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1880-1900~)
which tie with family on census
Possible marriage of Thomas DUCEY (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYW4-KTB)
although spouse options are Ellen Neil or Martha Slater which does not tie in with Teresa in 1901
She may have been a second wife!
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having searched family search for a birth of Michael Ducie in Kerry and the 1911 census of Kerry no corresponding entries appear in that name,so knowing that most marriages are held in the brides parish the following maybe his second marriage assuming his first wife died in 1924.
Michael Ducie
July Sep 1927
Listowel,ireland
vol 5 page 226 only found two matches for a bride,Nora Ambrose and Margaret Dillon.
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Myluck is my luck. Thank you (and Dathai again) for your help. I've managed to find a few other details - the most pertinent being that Michael Ducie was listed on the 1911 UK census and that he appears to have been a private in the British army.
The two possible candidates for a second marriage are interesting. There would appear to have been a whole crowd of Ducies in Kerry. On the other hand, Michael had a family life in Carlow after Brigid died (says my half-sister) and there was certainly a second wife there.
Having got this far, then I will invest in some certificates. I don't yet know the names of Michael's family members other than those you've discovered; but a Stephen Ducie did live (and die) in Staffordshire and there are some letters emanating from there (his descendants).
What I fail to make out is exactly where Michael was born. I thought Carlow but my (vague)
sources are conflicting.
Whatever - thank you again.
roly
roly
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strangely enough theres also a marriage in 1917 for Peter Ducie and there is only one Peter Ducie in Carlow in 1911 so must be Michael's brother,double wedding?.
marriage
Peter Ducie
Jan Mar 1917 Carlow,Ireland.
vol 3 page 315
matches for bride
Nellie Brennan
Catherine Doyle
Bridget Coakley, i wonder is Stephen a product of this marriage.
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Daithi: amazing (for me). This is a whole family I never knew about (if your surmise is right). Perhaps the Peter Ducie who died in 1964 was a product of the Peter Ducie you've discovered.
Incidentally, I have found a passenger list reference to James Ducie who, I know, went to New York (1921). I also have the usual - vague - information about Stephen Ducie and, luckily, some letters have survived that may enable me to pinpoint him and his family.
And so on...
roly
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I must be losing it re. Peter Ducie. My apologies. My Peter would have been my uncle(-ish). I really meant that he may have been named for the older Peter. In the same way, one of my names is Charles and I often wondered where that came from. I beieve now that it was given me after the name of one of Michael Ducie's brothers, Denis Charles Ducie.
Life gets complicated, dunnit?
roly
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I noted some other info yesterday but didn't post in case it caused confusion
I suggest that following the Certs for proof of family would be best start
Eleanor Teresa's birth
Michael's marriage
Link to census etc
Then work from there
I'll post what I have later
Getting kids out now
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Myluck - of Eleanor Teresa's birth-date I am certain (she was, after all, my birth mother!) and, through her daughter, Brighid (my half-sister), I've established a life-history. But when it came to the exigencies of Michael's life it has been difficlt to pin down dates and events. Bear in mind that my mother lived for much of her life in France and had lost contact with the family in Ireland (and England). Thus Bighid has been in no position to fill in the gaps.
It's that piecing together that I'm trying to achieve. I've only just been able to begin tha task through records available on the web and am not in a position to spend much money on the pursuit.
Hence my Roostchat enquiry and the splendid results so far. I look forward to further information and, meanwhie, am doing my best through an channels available.
That's enough personal history.
roly
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I suppose what I meant was that the details from the certs would help
i.e. Eleanor Teresa's parents names, occupations and addresses given
to link to
Michael's marriage certificate t Brigid Moore etc.
Looking at witness names and sponsor's names can help tie families members together
and often gives names of siblings and so on
See
Results for Duceys born in Carlow from 1880 to 1900 (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aducey~%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Bbirth_place%3Acarlow~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1880-1900~) LINK
which tie with family on census
in previous post where there are births for the family shown on the census
It includes a good match for Michael (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB8M-L6G) noting typo of name which was not unusual
just to note blue typing indicates links! just in case.....
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you mentioned a Denis,here are two strange births on Family Search in Cairo? Ireland, soldiers children?
Eric J Ducie 1929
Denis Ducie 1931 only gives page numbers no volume numbers but gs film numbers for both are the same are they births recorded overseas.
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Daithi,
Yeah: got them; and a strange lot of others. I don't think that there's a close connection to Michael but I haven't yet pursued the ins and outs of the Ducie diasapora.
roly
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one last oddity
marriage Carlow Oct dec 1918
vol 3 page 282
Ellen DucLe not on Irish Census so possibly Ducie
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Daithi: amazing (for me). This is a whole family I never knew about (if your surmise is right). Perhaps the Peter Ducie who died in 1964 was a product of the Peter Ducie you've discovered.
roly
Michael's brother Peter married in Dublin and had at least two sons
twins in 1916 named Thomas and Patrick
but registered as male (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aducie~%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22dublin%20north%22~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1916-1916~)
Edited to state proven from army records
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one last oddity
marriage Carlow Oct dec 1918
vol 3 page 282
Ellen DucLe not on Irish Census so possibly Ducie
If the Michael on Bridewell Lane is correct
He is shown with a sister Ellen in 1901
She married Peter Bigley in 1905 and is shown on the 1911 census, still living on Bridewell (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Carlow/Carlow_Urban/Bridewell_Lane/310772/)
EDITTED
For the first time in ages I forgot the word POSSIBLY
and misread the 1911 census for the 1901
THANK YOU DATHAI ;D I appreciate the extra eyes!
Obviously an Ellen DUCIE and Ellen BIGLEY nee DUCIE on Bridewell Lane
are most likely related but cannot be the same person
Bilocation and all that...
Goes back to checking and double checking.........
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MY LUCK how would you know which Ellen Ducie is the one you are referring to on the 1901 there are tvo Ellen Ducies age 11 and on the 1911 Census Michael's sister Ellen is still single age 21 so if one is married earlier as you suggest it seems logical that the second marriage refers to Michael's sister.
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Thanks dathai for the wake up call literally!
Note added at point of error ;)
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They are not the same person as Ellen Bigley was a Moore for bridewell Lane. And I think your ellen married in 1918 to Christopher mcdonnell/ mc Donald. Here's the image from Irishgenealogy.ie
copyright image removed
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There's so much from contributors that I'm grateful for. Where Perter Ducie is concerned, I learned that there is a headstone in Carlow with the names of a Peter Ducie, his wife, Annie, and their daughter, also Annie. The headstone has Peter dying in 1957 ( I had a different date of 1964). I'm not, of course, at all sure that this is 'my' Peter Ducie.
I believe that 'my' Peter, my uncle, was killed in a building accident.
There may well have been reports in newspapers. It's a remote ask but if anyone can set me on a trail, I'd be grateful.
r
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Sidcup, Kent ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCJ-XC66
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Dathai (Hallo again) - that's where my first (1964 )date came from. I have one new check that I can make about his birth and that may give us a coincidence.
roly
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Did the headstone of Peter Ducie's show his date of death as March 6th 1957?
If so I believe that this is his death record mistranscribed as DUNNE
LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1957/04400/4145483.pdf) #100
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My info. was not that precise; but your info would knock the 1957 theory on its head. I now think that 'my' Peter Ducie did die in 1964 - he was born in Carlow town in 1923. This fits my family archive. I'm waiting for confirmation from a member of my family.
I'd like to verify the circumstances of his death. Meanwhile, I've just (honest) received a possible lead to finding Peter's children.
Many thanks.
roly
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Micheal's second marriage in Kerry 1927 to Nora Ambrose
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1927/09108/5294682.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Trienearagh/Trienearagh/275841/
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Have you investigated this death in Kent in 1964?
Peter DUCIE Sidcup Q3 V5b P704 aged 41 (bc1923)
He is listed on the Government Probate Death Index 1960-2019 in 1965
Ducie, Peter of 10 Thursland Road North, Cray, Kent died 2 September 1964 in the grounds of The Hollies, Halfway Street, Sidcup, Kent. Administration London 11 June 1965 to Ellen Patricia Ducie Widow
The Hollies was a children's home at that time LINK (http://www.londongardensonline.org.uk/gardens-online-record.php?ID=BEX024)
There is a marriage of a Peter DUCIE to an Ellen McNULTY in 1950 Dartford Kent Q2 V5b P993
This couple is in Bexley at different addresses on the register of electors from 1951
There are children born in Kent to this combination of names for parents but are possibly still alive
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That's exactly the man. Many thsnks. I did have some idea but this has confirmed all previous researh.
Oddly, my half-sister rang me only two days ago to say that she thinks that she's 'found' Peter's children.
roly
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Your welcome - hope it all works out with the correct family
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A puzzle...Patrick Ducie, b. 1885 to Thomas and Teresa, Carlow, married a Margaret Skelly in Dublin in 1916.
There are WWI records which show that Patrick was discharged as unfit in 1917...There is also a war record indicating that he died in 1917. However, another record, in the Irish genealogical archives, giving the date of death of Margaret as 1965 (details are not precise but age-dates tally) also gives the name of a son, James, who was present at the death. The only James I can find was born in 1920 (just in case: Patrick's brother, James, was born in 1895 and later went to America).
Obviously, there is a a problem here.
I'm wondering if the 1917 date of death is accurate. The war records are not absolutely clear. And another Patrick Ducie died in Dublin in 1927...
Help.
roly
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Patrick Ducie died 1927 age 10-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1927/04976/4356016.pdf
Patrick Ducie died 1937 age 50- married-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1937/04791/4287983.pdf
Patrick Ducie died 1917 age 44- soldier but bachelor-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05208/4440145.pdf
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Thanks for that. I'd already discounted your third candidate because we know Patrick's age (born in 1888). My problem is that I can't quite work out how Army records worked (duh!) and whether or not the remark on Patrick's war record that he was 'deceased' applied to 1917, when he was discharged, or to a later demise. It'd be handy if it was the latter...This would explain the birth of James within the marriage.
roly
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I'm a bit confused by your post as the 1917 death means Patrick was born 1879 rather than 1888 and he was listed as bachelor. The CWGC site gives details which confirms date of death in 1917 and some personal details which again should easily rule this Patrick out- "son of Mrs. Sabina Ducie, of Bunnawillian, Geesala, Ballina, Co. Mayo."
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/900025/ducie,-/
The 1937 death shows that Patrick as married & born c1887.
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We're left with the 'middle' Patrick who's more or less the right age...His death allows the birth of a son.
I think that I may be able to confirm the identification...There are two letters written by a Patrick Ducie regarding entitlements; and, as far as I can make out, they were sent to the military authorities in 1922.
I'll continue to fossick - and thank you for your interest.
roly
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Still on the trail of this man - having followed leads that people have kindly contributed. I'm pretty certain now that I've found Peter's childen but still can't get a perspective on his 'supposed', death in 1854. The story is that he was killed in a building accident (this is how it came to me through family members).
I was wondering if somebody could, perhaps, point me in the direction of possible newspaper reports of the accident. I'm not at all familiar with local papers: Peter lived in Sidcup.
Meanwhile, of course, I'll continue to dredge.
roly
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roly I think you put a typo there
Peter DUCIE Death 1964 Sidcup Q3 V5b P704 aged 41 (bc1923)
He is listed on the Government Probate Death Index 1960-2019 in 1965
Ducie, Peter of 10 Thursland Road North, Cray, Kent died 2 September 1964 in the grounds of The Hollies, Halfway Street, Sidcup, Kent. Administration London 11 June 1965 to Ellen Patricia Ducie Widow
Did you get the death certificate to see what it says?
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Thanks...
No. Haven't got the death cert. yet...
roly
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Continuing Ducie trails...
Holding fire on death certificate for Peter...He had a sister, Eleanor Teresa, married and domiciled in France. She (now deceased), in turn, had children - which makes them cousins to Peter's children.
I'm looking to find the whereabouts of the youngest (?) of Peter's children, Diane E Ducie...I'm guessing Diane Ellen - her mother was Ellen and it's a favourite family name. After a birth-date for Diane in 1963 (Bromley, Kent), records are proving hard to discover.
Her cousin, here in France, somehow lost touch with the family and would be happy to receive news.
roly
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We aren't allowed to post details of living, or possibly living, people.
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Forgot. Apologies.
roly
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Other thread....
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825584.msg6891889#msg6891889
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Hi. I am Diane E Ducie (E is for Elaine). Peter Ducie who died in Sidcup was my father. I have little knowledge about his family history but knew of, and have vague memories of meeting, his sister who we knew as Tess. I don't have much knowledge of family history but would love to share what we know
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Amazing! I'm so pleased that you replied. I'd prefer to keep matters under the radar for now just in case family members are slightly less than enthusiastic but would be very happy if you could send a personal message.
Yo!
roly
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Will do!
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Ah, my 3rd post so that I can send a PM!
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Some of the last leavings in my enquiry...
Rootschat helped me find details of Michael Ducie (born 1888 in Carlow) and his marriage to Brighid Brophy in 1917; her death in 1924; and Michael's second marriage to a Nora Ambrose in Listowel in 1928.
But I can't find any record at all - and this includes Irish Civil Records online - for his death.
Any ideas?
roly
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Some of the last leavings in my enquiry...
Rootschat helped me find details of Michael Ducie (born 1888 in Carlow) and his marriage to Brighid Brophy in 1917; her death in 1924; and Michael's second marriage to a Nora Ambrose in Listowel in 1928.
But I can't find any record at all - and this includes Irish Civil Records online - for his death.
Any ideas?
roly
Maybe the died after 1969 ?
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Is this Nora's death in 1959 #124 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1959/04359/4130180.pdf)?
If so she is shown as married which would imply Michael died after 1959 which is after online records
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Some of the last leavings in my enquiry...
Rootschat helped me find details of Michael Ducie (born 1888 in Carlow) and his marriage to Brighid Brophy in 1917; her death in 1924; and Michael's second marriage to a Nora Ambrose in Listowel in 1928.
Just to note Brigid's name was MOORE LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09738/5533653.pdf) #240
Also shown as MOORE on their daughter's birth record LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1919/01231/1512122.pdf) #149
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SR District/Reg Area Listowel
Party 1 Name Michael ducie
Party 2 Name NORA AMBROSE
Date of Event 17 September 1927
Cert attached
Marriage results for Ducie from 1916 to 1918 LINK http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p4i/
only the one already posted by myluck!
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Is the
Death of MICHAEL DUCIE in 1960
Group Registration ID 1870205
SR District/Reg Area Thurles
Deceased Age at Death 72
yours?
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
m
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Rootschat to me - like a rash!
But problems solved. Many thanks.
roly
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This will get all Civil Reg for them in Carlow on
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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Not too many...
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Even using the Search Criteria on the other thread here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825584.msg6891896#msg6891896
should have found his Death
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Someone on Rootschat helped you find details of Michael Ducie (born 1888 in Carlow) and his marriage to Brighid Brophy in 1917; her death in 1924; and Michael's second marriage to a Nora Ambrose in Listowel in 1928.....
...which was clearly wrong.
You'd need to be double checking anything for yourself and if you've sent incorrect data privately to others you'd need to warn them it is wrong before they put incorrect Trees online creating a bigger mess.
Using the Search Criteria on the other thread here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825584.msg6891896#msg6891896
should have found his Marriages.
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Hang on. I corrected the Brophy mistake.
All the other details were checked, cross-checked, double-checked; and some have the advantage of being corroborated with those (later) members of the family I've contacted.
Hope that this is satisfactory.
roly
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roly
I think Hallmark was just reminding us of the importance of double checking original records rather than accepting information.
Always remembering even original documents can have errors!
If my grand aunt's original marriage record was to be believed she married her brother-in-law who was the best man!
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Lucky she!
No problem with accepting advice and the rest here. Thanks for your concern.
Through Rootschat I now have much more than an outline; have found a cousin (she me, actually) and have been able to give infos. to my half-sister here in France. She, incidentally, with her very first use of a computer, replied to my original request through Rootschat.
It's been a big step in family history.
Best,
roly
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Not really - she believed she had become widowed! Ordered her marriage certificate that she required to apply for a widow's pension but according to the certificate she was married as the brother in law was still alive! A couple of affidavits later from persons of "full knowledge of the event" etc......
best of everything with your searches