RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: aakarlhamo on Thursday 12 January 12 16:48 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
Can anyone help he with my elusive Brown family?
I have a marriage cert for my grandfather, Ernest Thomas Brown born 1910/11, not sure where he was born. He married Ellen Doris Serjeant, Edmonton Registry Office August 1932 when he was 21.
He was listed as living at 154 Winchester Road Edmonton but I have checked the electoral roll to see if a Brown family lived there in 1932 and they didn't so he was maybe lodging and originally not from the area.
Ernest and Ellen were at 51 Harrow Drive in 1935.
Ernest Thomas was a sand blaster, gas stoves. I think that it was R&A Mane where he worked.
His father is also Ernest Brown and he was builder's labourer. There is also a witness signature for an E C Brown, maybe a mother or sibling ???
At some point Ernest went to live in Rugby.
That is all I know about the Browns. I have a suspicion that he wasn't from Edmonton because I got the death cert for an Ernest Thomas who died in Warwickshire 1977 and born Mar 1911 Edmonton but his father was Arthur.
I can't find him on the 1911 census on ancestry either and I would like to identify his father and birth place so I can start to trace the Brown family history.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Carole ;D
-
Have you looked at this birth:
Births Mar qtr. 1911
Brown, Ernest T., Edmonton, vol. 3a: 598
The death cert for the Ernest Thomas Brown who died in Warwick was probably the Ernest T. born in the same quarter in Leicester.
He should appear on the 1911 census somewhere though if that is the correct one.
Alexander
-
Hi Alexander,
I made the mistake of assuming that Ernest T was from Edmonton so the death record for Warwickshire which had the right birth date made it look like a winner. I sent away for the birth certificate and the father was Arthur Brown. :(
There is a birth for Ernest Thomas in Leicester and one in Great Yarmouth.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to bring up the 1911 census for them on Ancestry.
However, someone has kindly given me 1911 details of an Ernest Brown 1883 Gt Yarmouth who married a Druscilla Mott, they had a child called Ernest born Sept 1910. The father's profession is a carpenter. It looks promising and I have put it on Ancestry in the hope that some trees would pop up but as yet not not :(
Really, I need to try and get the 1911 census for the Leicester birth to see what the father's profession was.
Thanks for the birth details though.
Carole ;D
-
Just to let you know that I have found a census for Ernest Tebbit Brown 1911, Leicester. So it looks like Great Yarmouth is the one. YEAY ;D
-
Excellent, let us know if you get that birth cert and find if it's the right one.
Right after I posted, I did have doubts about the Edmonton one as he appeared to have father of Arthur on the census, as you'd already mentioned - sorry about that.
Alexander
-
I will let you know as soon as I have the certificate.
Fingers crossed it is the right one ;D
-
Hi Alexander
The birth certificate has landed and it is for an Ernest Thomas Brown, so the middle name is right.
Father, Ernest James, is listed as a carpenter journeyman. This worries me as on son Ernest's marriage certificate the father was listed as a builder's labourer, which is unskilled and a carpenter is skilled ???
Armed with the birth info, I looked for a death. I must admit that I expected to find one in the Rugby area because that is where he lived with his second family but not so as he died in Gt Yarmouth in 2002 at 91 yrs. I hope he has passed those genes to me ha ha!!
So now I have sent for the death certificate in the hope that there will be a relative's name and address but knowing my luck it will probably be a nursing home or hospital where he died.
Carole ;D
-
Hi Carole,
I wouldn't worry too much about his father being a builder's labourer on the marriage certificate and a carpenter earlier on. If Ernest Sr. was not around when his son got married (which seem likely since he married in London), then Ernest Jr. sort of got his father's profession right.
Hopefully the death cert will provide the missing piece of the puzzle.
However there is this marriage in 1931 which has me a bit concerned:
Marriages Sep qtr. 1931
Brown, Ernest T., Yarmouth, vol. 4b: 58
Basey, Beatrice M., Yarmouth, vol. 4b: 58
That couple seem to be having children in Yarmouth from 1932 to 1951, so it could not be the same man as your grandfather. It might be worth getting that marriage cert if only to confirm/rule out the birth cert that you have.
Good luck!
Alexander
-
Hi again Carole,
Sorry to say this, but I'm quite sure the Yarmouth birth cert you have is the wrong one.
I think that the father's name on the marriage cert is a simple error. I think Ernest's father's name was Arthur not Ernest. It may just be a mistake on the GRO copy. It might be worth contacting Edmonton Record Office to see if they would be willing to check the original register to see if it does say Arthur not Ernest.
My reasons why I think he was Arthur not Ernest:
- the census gives Arthur's occupation as Painter (Builder's), which fits perfectly in line with a builder's labourer
- Arthur's wife was Edith Caroline (Fitch), a perfect candidate for the witness E.C. Brown on the marriage certificate.
It's not unknown for GRO certs (or even the originals) to contain simple clerical errors...I have a GRO marriage cert of a man named Henry which gives his father as Henry, when in fact his father was definitely called Andrew. The original parish register had it correct.
So all in all I think you were on the right track to start with. The 1911 birth cert in Edmonton seems to be the correct one, as does the death in Warwickshire which fits with what you knew about the family. It's the marriage cert that has the mistake I think.
Hope this helps
Alexander
-
Thanks Alexander, that does sound reassuring and I shall get onto them about it tomorrow.
Yes, the information that you have just given me about the trade and Edith Caroline fits in more comfortably. Even my name of Carole sort of ties in too.
I had a marriage record that I was looking at for my friend's tree and the name should have been Collins but the clerk had written Collinson. The next entry was also written Collinson and the signature was Collison so I think the clerk was having a bad day.
Fingers crossed that it will be the case with Arthur.
I'll let you know the outcome and I feel better after reading your message because I was definitely confused.com ha ha
Carole ;D
-
Hi Alexander
You were right the certificate was wrong.
I had the bright idea to check army records and luckily there was one for Arthur Brown with wife Edith Caroline. I was delighted to see that amongst the children was an Ernest Thomas Brown born 11 Feb 1911.
I will get in touch with the relevant offices and let them know and also to see if I can get a refund for all the subsequent certificates I have ordered because of the wrong information. They can't deny it because the proof is in the army record.
I am really happy because Ernest had 7 siblings so I am hoping that there is still some family around that might remember Ernest and his family.
A result I think and PHEW at last!!!!!
Thanks again for all your help.
Carole ;D
-
Hi Alexander
Well I managed to get the marriage certificate looked into and the father's name of Ernest is correct. What is more it looks like he was still alive at the time of the marriage as there are other fathers on the page with deceased in brackets so the registrar did ask the question.
I am absolutely dumb founded given all the correlations with Arthur as the father.
I have opened up the Brown family on ancestry using Arthur and Edith Caroline Fitch as the parents:
: On Arthur's 1918 army papers he is living at 56 Winchester Road. Ernest Thomas lived at 157 Winchester Road at the time of his marriage in 1932 but he wasn't on the electoral roll!
There are no other siblings, uncles etc with the name Ernest within Arthur's family.
A brother of Arthur's Ernest Thomas was called Victor and my Ernest Thomas did name his first son Victor! Also,it looks like my Ernest Thomas gave his first daughter's middle name as Ellen after his wife and my mum got Edith - maybe after his mother?
Arthur's father was called Thomas Brown!
Then there is the Ruby death and my Ernest Thomas left his family to be with a woman in Rugby. Apparently he had several children with her.
The evidence seems to stack up so it is all rather strange and I am very stumped as to my next step ???
I really don't want to just assume that Arthur is the father. :(
Regards
confused.com Carole ???
-
I am not familiar with Edmonton, so I am not sure if my suggestion could possibly be helpful.
In my recent research of Brown family of Islington, circa 1861-1881, I came across the names Ernest and Arthur Brown.
Here is what I discovered.
1861 census: No 1 Drury Lane
Edward Brown born about 1893 in Harlington Middlesex, carman
Mary Anne Brown, born about 1833, Suffolk
Mary Anne Brown, born 1856, St George Bloomsbury
James Martin, born 1836, lodger carman
Thomas Martin, born 1842, lodger carman
John Martin, born 1843, baker
Then the 1871 census shows the family at No 164 Drury Lane
Edward
Mary Anne (wife)
Mary Anne (daughter)
Samuel, born 1865
ERNEST, born 1868
Albert, born 1871
John Martin, brother in law, born 1843 carman born Suffolk
William Eden, lodger, born 1852
Then another Brown family
1881 census: 28 Maude Terrace, Islington
William Brown, Labourer born 1893 St Pancras
Emma B, wife, born 1842
Eliza born 1863
Ellen born 1865
Sarah born 1867
John Born 1870
Henry born 1873
Emma born 1876
ARTHUR born 1878
Rose born 1881
Perhaps one of these gentlemen could be the father to your Ernest? If not, then I do wish you every success with your search.
-
Hi,
Thanks for your suggestions for Ernest and his father.
I have since found and been in contact with my birth mother who has confirmed that the father on Ernest Thomas marriage certificate is wrong and it is the Arthur who I thought it was - ha ha after all that!!!
So Ernest's father is Arthur born 1877/78 Holloway.
Anyway, I sent for Arthur and Edith's marriage certificate and I now have Arthur's father as William a stoker at the gas works in 1898.
From what I have managed to deduce so far I too have come up with the family at Maude Terrace, Islington, as being Arthur's family. I just need to double check it all as I think there is an upper and lower Holloway.
Are you looking for your Brown family in the same area?
Let me have the names and I will keep an eye open and let you know if I come across them.
Thanks again
Carole ;D
-
Great news about your find! I was worried that it the information would be of no use to you.
I stumbled across the 28 Maude Terrace Brown family when I was transcribing my James Cook family living at the same residence.
My COOK family hail from Islington, they were quite a large family of drovers and most worked near the Smithfield Cattle Market.
George William Brown (born 1876) and Ellen Brown (born 1879) were brother and sister, and they each married a Cook. Their father was George William Brown, born about 1850, and their mother was Ellen Brown, born about 1852.)
Here are George and Ellen's connection with the Cooks.
1898, Islington: George William Brown married Elizabeth Emma Cook (not sure if she is connected to my Cook line at this time, but I have a feeling she may be.)
1900, Holborn: Ellen Brown married George Cook (he is my 1st cousin 3 times removed. His father was James Cook, brother to my great-great grandfather, Edward Cook)
Happy to have helped with Ernest and Arthur.
-
Ha ha you have made my head spin ;)
I am just working on Arthur and filling in the census details for 28 Maude Terrace. I can see your Cook family at the same address but not sure where the George William Brown comes from as he is not in my Brown family at that address and the Ellen Brown is born 1865 rather than 1879. The father is William Brown and the mother Emma!
It would be great if we have a family connection :D
Are you on Ancestry?
Carole ;D
-
Oh dear, sorry if I confused you. George William and Ellen Brown that are connected to me are not on the census at 28 Maude Terrace. I was looking for them when I saw this other Brown family who happened to reside at the same place as my Cook family.
Perhaps the two families my be connected, however, I have not made that connection yet.
I do have an ancestry account but not a membership as of yet.
-
Ha ha I am easily confused :D
I am not sure what records you are missing but I couldn't resist a quick search.
Have you seen the 1881 census for 57 Market St, Poplar?
George Brown Cooper Stepney 1851
Ellen Brown Hackney 1852
George Brown Poplar 1876
Ellen Brown Poplar 1878
John Brown Poplar 1880
-
Yes, thanks. I did see that listing. It is easy to lose track of family connections when they continue to recycle the same names; especially when the last names are so common, such as Brown and Cook!