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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 08:29 GMT (UK)

Title: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 08:29 GMT (UK)
Hoping someone can help me with these pair.
Margaret Mullan/Mullane arrived in Australia as an assisted immigrant on the Lady Kenneway on 13th Sept 1841,she was born abt 1822-24 County Cork Ireland.She married James Duval b.1812 Brest/ France  in St Mary's church Sydney on 11th July 1841.She had three children I know of
James Duval b.1843 d.1886
John  Duval  b. 1845 d.1917
Jane  Duval  b.  1846 d.1852

She was admitted to Darlinghurst Jail in 1851
She died of Dysentry in Sydney Benevolent Asylum 0n 30th Oct 1858
She was buried in RC Cemetry Sydney 2nd Nov 1858.
Is there anyway of finding out about her conviction?
Also is there away of researching James Duval who came from France,I cannot find him on any passenger list here,I have been to a few french sites but can't read French.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Judy
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:04 GMT (UK)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article686318
Margaret committed for trial

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60032168
Another account

regards,
   Ros

Edit to add: she was found not guilty
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60032439



Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:23 GMT (UK)
And another crime
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60125407

regards,
   Ros
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:25 GMT (UK)
 Wow!!why couldn't I find that, thanks Ros, a"wild woman"lol,wonder what she also did.
Newspaper says "an old offender of the Argyle St purlieus.
Cheers
Jude
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:28 GMT (UK)
In 1852 she and her husband ...
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12936744

regards,
   Ros
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:30 GMT (UK)
It seems she (and James) liked to drink
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60128411

cheers.
   Ros
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:35 GMT (UK)
Here's a search for her 184o's crimes
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=%22margaret+duval%22~2&l-decade=184

And her 1850's crimes
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=%22margaret+duval%22~2&l-decade=185

You could write a book ...?

cheers,
   Ros
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:49 GMT (UK)
And could this explain James Duval's arrival - a runaway seaman 1841
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36852476

cheers,
   Ros
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:51 GMT (UK)
It gets worse ....  a chest with a body in it and James Duval one of 3 French seaman who ran away
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12407915

cheers,
   Ros

Edit to add : More on the murder (Margaret involved also) and James claims he can't understand English  ???.  James found guilty of murder
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66378081 and
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article37124372

Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 10:08 GMT (UK)
Blimey Ros,Hope your having as much fun finding this as i am reading and trying to take it all in,the old saying you can't pick your rellies ah,this is so intresting,never thought I would uncover this family secret.I know now why the children went into an orphange,that is all we knew.
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 10:15 GMT (UK)
Yes I am enjoying reading it -  I think it would make a great book (or film).   James is involved in a garrotting later but that will be a later chapter

I was worried where the children were during their drinking and crime sprees.  Here it says James was found sleeping in street with his 4  ??? children and then later Margaret was found sleeping in street with her 3  ??? children.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12934935

What a terrible time for the children!

cheers,
   Ros



Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 10:22 GMT (UK)
A little more about the conditions of the poor children.    Here it refers to James Duval's wife as Mary but it must be a typo as it also refers to the assault on Hogan (which was elsewhere reported to be by James and Margaret Duval).

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60128968

cheers,
   Ros

Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 10:38 GMT (UK)
1889 could be your James Duval guilty of bigamy and charged with not paying maintenance to wife (wives  :D?)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13714530
Although James would be 70'ish so maybe not him  Edit to add:  It does say accused is a pensioner

1893 could be your James involved in a garrotting
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13903897

1893 James Duval acquitted on charge of assault and robbery
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article71188430

Or perhaps it is the son? edit to add :  No you said the son had died in 1886.  (or someone else entirely)

cheers,
   Ros





Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 10:55 GMT (UK)
I did hear there was another child called Margaret born 1847 but was not sure of it,this might explain the 4 children and Jane died at a young age,any wonder why,poor children.
Couldn't see anywhere how long James was jailed for the murder?
You have been great posting all this up,I am vey greatful Ros,
I wonder why I left this side of the family last to research?
Those horrible pair were my GGGGrandparents,glad it didn't continue down the line.
Cheers
Judy
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 10:59 GMT (UK)
Hang on Ros I will check,there were two sons John and James,one of them had a son James to,will get back to you on that.

Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 11:10 GMT (UK)
It was a sad story.  Glad to hear at least one of the children had a family and a normal life.  It's not often you'd say that they would be better off in an orphanage (especially at that time).   But in this case it probably saved their lives!

cheers,
   Ros

Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 11:21 GMT (UK)
Ros on the two boys James and John,James had a child called James.
James Duval b.1872 d.1929
Married Mary E Quinn 1862
They had 11 children,so quite possible,lets see how far this criminal activity goes on for.lol :D
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 11:22 GMT (UK)
Here it says that James Duval of the Lady Kennaway had his ticker of leave cancelled for drunkenness in 1852
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12948736

So he was a transported convict?  And on the same ship as Margaret?

cheers,
   Ros

Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 12:08 GMT (UK)
I went back looking for Jame's sentence for that 1844 murder.
Here it says that James Duval was indicted for being an accessory after the fact for that murder (body in the chest) and was acquitted  :)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article671231

I'm getting confused - I thought the other article said he was found guilty.   I guess it needs more careful reading.

cheers,
   Ros
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 12:13 GMT (UK)
Ros,I am not up with how the convict thingo works,what does it mean by ticker of leave cancelled?
I can see I will be very busy going through all of this and getting everything together in order for future generations.
That runaway french seaman would have to be him too,wouldn't you think,probably after the boat docked,who knows.Will have to try and find out how long he was jailed for.
The kids must of seen and went through a lot before they finally went to an orphange.It made a sad story,but it was an intresting chase. Thanks so much.
Cheers
Judy
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: bozzo2 on Wednesday 18 January 12 12:21 GMT (UK)
Aquitted!!!!!!! sounds better,must of had a faithfull witness I would think.
Judy
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 12:34 GMT (UK)
He was off marketing with his wife!   :)  (sounds so domesticated) and so could not have been involved in the murder as the body would have taken longer to get into that terrible state.

I think it all needs more careful reading and absorbing. 

cheers,
   Ros

(off to bed now - it was emotionally draining reading about their exploits)

Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 20:47 GMT (UK)
Judy,
So it seems that the Nov 1844 article was the coronor's inquest and the verdict of guilty meant that they had to stand trial.  Here in January 1845 the result of the trial is that James is readily  acquitted  :)  :)  The jury didn't even leave the box and he was honourably acquitted with the jury believing him to be really innocent.  :)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12876734

Overall it seems that the pair just liked their drink too much and were not guilty of major crimes (but the children must have suffered during these drinking bouts).

And let's face it - there was probably more reason to drink to excess in those days (not the least being falsely charged with murder) and no help for those who did.

The newspaper writing is so descriptive and colourful at that time that it makes good reading - but may be a little over the top.
It's probably time to find other sources now.


cheers,
   Ros   

(edit to add:  it does say what a good character he had in 1845 trial - so the drinking started after that)
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 21:27 GMT (UK)
NSW state records convict list does have a James Duval of the Lady Kennaway  getting a ticket of leave in 1841
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchhits.aspx?table=Convict%20Index&id=65&frm=1&query=Surname:duval;Firstname:james

You can pay for a photocopy (or visit the records office)

cheers,
   Ros

Edit to add:  But I can't find any other mention of him as a convict in the links given on the resources.   The SAG databases are temporarily unavailable  :(
Title: Re: Mullan or Mullane/Duval
Post by: rosball on Wednesday 18 January 12 22:08 GMT (UK)
From the NSW Gaol Descriptions and Entrance books.   1853  (State Records Authority of NSW)

He is 4'11'', stout and fresh complexioned.  Born 1811 and arrived on Lady Kennaway in 1841

cheers,
  Ros
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Thursday 19 January 12 01:03 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much Ros,for all your time in researching this story,who knows after going through a murder trail,and finally being acquitted,would turn some people to drink.
I will keep looking to see what else I can find on these pair.
By the sounds of it James Duval couln't speak much English,does anyone know if he would have to been living in England and committed a crime there before coming to Australia as a convict,or did convicts come from France also?
Cheers
Judy


Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: rosball on Thursday 19 January 12 06:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Judy,
   I had only heard of tickets-of-leave being granted to transported convicts.  But perhaps free settlers who committed an offence here (such as jumping ship) could be convicted of a crime here and then given a ticket-of-leave.

    We need some experts to help ...! :)

cheers,
   Ros
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: rosball on Thursday 19 January 12 10:40 GMT (UK)
Hi Judy,
   From what I have read online eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticket_of_leave a ticket of leave is just a conditional parole.  It was used in UK, and other commonwealth countries so does not imply that the person was a transported convict.

So when James Duval was apprehended after jumping ship, he was probably given some sort of sentence and then given a ticket-of-leave allowing him to marry and live outside (but could not leave the colony).

cheers,
   Ros

Edit to add : And there were some French convicts from Canada transported here 1839-1840 http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/canadian.html
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Thursday 19 January 12 11:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks Ros for the links,Mmmm I'm still not totally convinced he wasn't a convict,unless I am overlooking something in the article.
Cheers
Judy
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: majm on Thursday 19 January 12 12:57 GMT (UK)
Hi there

I am not an expert but here is my explanation ... I stand happily to be corrected
CONVICT  a person currently serving a sentence of a court

TRANSPORTED CONVICT a person serving a sentence of transportation beyond the seas (of the location of the court)

FORMER CONVICT a person who is no longer subject to a sentence of the court ... hence could be FREE by servitude (served the sentence in the penal colonies etc and may have held a T of L but has been issued a C of F which is to be used to PROVE the holder is FREE)

Sydney c1840s ... no longer a penal colony but there were still people serviing Transportation sentences HOWEVER there were 3rd and 4th generations of descendants of first fleeters and later ARRIVALS many who CAME FREE ...

Secondary Transportation indicates a TRANSPORTEE committed a colonial crime and thus was to be transported to yet another penal es colony or at least beyond the seas

Persons who came free or were BORN in the COLONIES could also face the courts and they were usually sentened to GAOL time noting TRANSPORTATON does NOT put the convict in Gaol .. there needed to be a further charge and a guilty verdict in the colony  and there needed to be a physical GAOL first ... Hence convicts were assigned and thus needed T of L to move around during their servitude etc etc etc

PARDONS

Conditional    A transported was FREE but on Condition they did not return to the country where they were originally tried

COLONIAL  they were pardoned of the sentence underwhich they had been tried in the Colony issuing the Pardon FREE to go anywhere

ABSOLUTE pardon   This means the holder was completly pardoned or the sentence or the court ... and could be issued to either the overseas court sentenced convict or the colonial court sentenced convict  FREE to go anywhere

Sorry I have not looked for your French Chap  but I hope my general summary can help ... NB there will be exceptions to these explanations ...

Cheers JM


Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: rosball on Thursday 19 January 12 20:13 GMT (UK)
Hi JM,

   Why would there be 2 different registration numbers on marriage of James Duval and Margaret Mullane in 1842 in NSW BDM?  Does this give a hint to anything?

V18421454 92/1842    DUVAL    JAMES    MULLANE    MARGARET    LD   
V1842620 130/1842    DUVAL    JAMES    MULLANE    MARGARET    LD

cheers,
   Ros
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: majm on Thursday 19 January 12 23:57 GMT (UK)
Back in 1810 Gov Macquarie issued a general order about recording baptisms and burials and clergy were required to transmit evidence of their ceremonies to the  NSW Chaplains ... Then 1820s  marriages were added to the general orders
SO if not married at ST Philips then the clergy were meant to TRANSMIT a summary to Rev  COWPER at St Philips ... This rule was often  overlooked as the governor did not provide additional funds to the clergy for this CIVIL task.   BUt after St Marys Cathedral was completed the Roman Catholics ceased transmitting to St Philips and their priests were expected to transmit to St Marys ... All other denominations were meant to transmit to St Philips  .. from throughout NSW  eg At times that included Fiji and other south sea islands ..  NZ etc

So in the 1930s wheen  NSW was indexing the volumes that they had organised into Volumes with teams of volunteers transcribing them well the volunteers transcribed all the volumes  SO there can be more than TWO entries for the one event ... 3 or 4 sometimes

The original parish record often has more depth of info while the transmitted summary  is often very scant

Cheers JM
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Friday 20 January 12 00:09 GMT (UK)
Hi Maja
Any ideas why there seems to be no death entry for James Duval,not that I can find anyway.
The 1886 death entry is his son James b.1843
Judy
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: majm on Friday 20 January 12 00:27 GMT (UK)
Early Church Records held by NSW BDM are not complete

Also it was well into 20th c that regulations sorted out who was responsible to remit the fees to register a death where a coroner or Police Magistrate had needed to consider an enquiry so some burials post 1856 have not ever been registered ...  also some summary returns could have been lost or too difficult to read  ... NSWBDM did not get typewriters until 20th c you know !

Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Friday 20 January 12 00:41 GMT (UK)
Ok,thanks for the info you have provided,much appreciated
Cheers
Judy
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: majm on Friday 20 January 12 03:36 GMT (UK)
So in 1853 in the Scone District of NSW, James DUVAL, ex the Lady Kennaway of 1841 received a Ticket of Leave for an offence he was tried for at the Sydney Quarter Sessions....  The T of L would give you the year of that offence ! It could even give you more about his own origins  ;)

I haven't carefully studied all the posts on this thread .... but have you gone through the Lady Kennaway passenger list at this link (free to search, and it is images of the landing manifest)

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/nrs-lists/nrs-5316#the-list-of-ships
Scroll about half way through, find 1841, then 13 Oct and then Lady Kennaway.   Usually the manifests give families, then single men then single women etc...

So, James Duval was up in the Scone District in circa 1853  ;D

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: majm on Friday 20 January 12 04:10 GMT (UK)
NSW Electoral Roll 1870  For NEW ENGLAND,

James DUVAL, residence at Walcha ....

Of course there's no way of knowing from that roll IF this would be your chap, or a descendant .... but  ;)

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Friday 20 January 12 04:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Majm
I checked the ships list for the Lady Kennaway Oct 13 1841 and I can only see Margaret Mullan his wife, who he married in 1842 in Sydney,I can't see James Duval himself,from what I can understand he was a seaman.

Yes that James Duval at Walcha is James son.
 Cheers
Judy
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: sparrett on Friday 20 January 12 04:44 GMT (UK)
In the New England district is Mt Duval.

According to this piece it was named after TOL holder JOHN DUVAL

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-factsheet/armidale--places-to-see-20081113-65g3.html

This link to another researcher

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-CONVICTS/2000-04/0954738817

Sue   
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: majm on Friday 20 January 12 05:16 GMT (UK)
Great finds Sue

Sydney Town c1840s ... transportation of convicted persons ceases ... influx of assisted passengers to take up work previously assigned to convicts led to oversupply of labour and collapse of wages etc ... ships from Britain need many as crew to NSW but far less on return voyages as cargo was goods rather than peoples so crew often were signed on for ONE way free trip to NSW in return for cabin work for their passengers  ... and Sydney infrastructure had trouble coping with this AND the adverse rural drought and economic downturn  and the Flash gangs at The Rocks ran rings around the constables etc etc and reticulated water to households was NOT YET available  so the usual drink to refresh or sustain was often wine etc eg  if the wells were overdrawn

if Mr Duval worked his passage to NSW then he may not actually have deserted and perhaps met his future wife while crewing below deck...

Cheers JM
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: sparrett on Friday 20 January 12 05:39 GMT (UK)
Hi JM,
I do not think JOHN DUVAL and JAMES DUVAL are the same man.
JOHN became well-established in the district and part of the pastoralist community.

The only caution I would make is...

 There could easily be confusion in items/sightings listing eg- J DUVAL, ex- convict or  J DUVAL, TOL holder etc

Sue
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Friday 20 January 12 05:48 GMT (UK)
Thanks  Sue, I did email that researcher a couple of mths ago and no reply,checked out that Mt Duval the article says named after John Duval who worked in the area around 1830's,so maybe a bit too early,will keep it filed away though.

Hi Majm

The Rocks hey!!! James and Margaret lived in the Rocks,their children was born there I am told.
I have a feeling that James and Margaret most probably met on the Lady Kennaway it arrived Oct 1841 and they were married July 1842.

Hope this link works regarding James Duval a runaway seaman
Cheers
Judy
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36852476
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: majm on Friday 20 January 12 07:21 GMT (UK)
 :D


Mr Callagar was sentenced to pay £5 fine or 1 month in gaol AND costs of £2 for harbouring a runaway seaman named James Duval as per the newspaper, The Australian of 23 November 1841 .... 

So who was Mr Callagar, and where was he residing, and what was his occupation and why was he accused of harbouring a runaway seaman, and who dobbed and was the seaman really a runaway  ;D

So many questions  ;) spring to mind, but I think you should consider getting the 1853 T of L issued by the Scone Bench .... it is around $15 if you order it from NSW SRO and it is among their reels .... that members of the public can readily access at their Reading Rooms ....


http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=65

I read on their website "Each butt provides the following information: prisoner's number, name ship and year of arrival, master of ship, native place, trade or calling, offence, place and date of trial, sentence, year of birth, physical description, the district the prisoner is allocated to, the Bench which recommended him/her, and the date of issue of Ticket. There are also notes on many of the butts referring to matters such as change of district, and conditional pardons"

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: bozzo2 on Friday 20 January 12 10:39 GMT (UK)
Thanks JM, I did order that T of L so will see what comes out of that.Again thanks for your help and everone elses.
Cheers
Judy
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: anita77a on Tuesday 11 August 15 08:11 BST (UK)
Hi everyone
I have been reading this history on James and Margaret with great interest!
I believe they are part of my family tree also.
The family rumour around how the Duval line came into Australia was always very vague and all I could glean was that there was some kind of Tahitian connection????
Which I found at the time very far fetched....I wonder if the Lady Kennaway stopped at any ports in that vicinity on the way to Australia?
The son of this pair James which ended up in Walcha area married Mary Quinn and had a very large brood are my 3rd Great Grandparents through their daughter Margaret Duval. We still have family airloom which is a spoon which carries the Duval monogram/crest.
Has their been any update on the ticket of leave and whether James Duval the 1st or has anyone found out more about his history before he arrived in Australia?
Thanks
Anita

Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: Emilysmum on Monday 13 March 17 08:28 GMT (UK)
HI I am a direct ancestor too, is there any chance you could send me a photo of the heirloom please
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: rosball on Monday 13 March 17 09:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Anita and Emilysmum,

Welcome to rootschat  :)

Bozzo2 has been online recently so she will be along soon.

Anita should receive notification of a reply so hopefully she will be along soon too.

Ros
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: SpudNQ on Wednesday 08 May 19 10:56 BST (UK)
In the spirit of being fashionably late (Couple of years by the looks of the last entry) I thought I’d take a chance and place a post.

I’m a direct descendant of James Duval and Mary Quinn. I have been absolutely blown away by the info in these posts! It seems poor James Junior was destined for a life of poverty as he lived very poorly with his large family for most of their lives.

I’m happy to share any info family members may be interested in that I have-which isn’t much-and would love any old photos or info that may be held by family as well.

Take care all-hope someone reads this after all these years!!
Title: Re: MULLAN or MULLANE/DUVAL
Post by: Emilysmum on Thursday 09 May 19 11:09 BST (UK)
Anita 77a, my mum is a Duval and she said that there was Mauritius in the family haven't heard of Tahitian at all, she said her great great grandmother came from there not sure if its true or not.
Hello Spud NQ, I am just gathering i don't have a lot certainly not as much as the ladies on here have gathered, im just a beginner but im a direct descendant.