RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: jimmiedalch on Wednesday 18 January 12 09:55 GMT (UK)
-
Hi, I'm trying to find information on my gg grandparents who were married in Mullingar in 1876. That's all the info I have. No DOB so unable to progress my research to find more ancestors. Thank you.
-
Do you have the marriage cert ?
It should show places of residence for the bride and groom at the time of the marriage, along with details of their fathers (name & occupation), which should help.
Because the births of Michael and Margaret are before the start of civil records you will need to check for church records - i.e. baptisms. Marriages usually took place in the parish of residence for the bride - so the church they married in is a good place to start the search for her family.
see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Shane
-
No Shane, I don't have a marriage cert. I only know that they were married in a RC Church in Mullingar but thanks for you help.
Jimmie
-
here are the probable references from the BMD Index :
name: Michael Lynch
registration district: Mullingar
event type: Marriage
Year: 1876
Volume : 18 / Page: 261
Name: Margret Brady (that's the way it appears on the index)
[same references as Michael]
Where did Michael & Margaret end up ?
You could possibly establish approximate years of birth from census returns, death certs, immigration records etc
see : Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
Details included on a Marriage Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html)
Shane
-
Thanks Shane, Margaret and Michael ended up in Dublin.
Jimmie
-
I see several possible children (John, Michael & Mary) born to Michael and Margaret in the extracted FamilySearch records, between about 1877 and 1881 in Rathganny area, Co. Westmeath - see :
Lynch/Brady children (https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Alynch~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1876-1881~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3Amichael~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Amargaret~%20%2Bmother_surname%3Abrady~&collection_id=1584963)
There's another couple with the same combined names, in Co. Cavan
Have you found the parents or the children on the Irish 1901/1911 census ?
Shane
-
Thanks Shane, just had a email from a distant cousin who stated that they came from Rathganny. Trying to find them in the 1901 census now. I think they probably lived in North Dock.
Jimmie
-
I dont see any Westmeath born Lynchs in Dublin on the 1901 or 1911 census ...
Which child of Michael & Margaret are you descended from ?
Shane
-
dont know why the census search by county of birth didn't work - but here's a Westmeath born Lynch family that might fit in 1901 :
Lynch household - Malachy Place, Dublin (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Malachy_Place/1276264/)
Shane
-
Yes Shane I think thats them. I'm descended from John Lynch but he was married at the time of the 1901 census and living at North Dock Street. Thanks for all your help.
Jimmie
-
one detail that I'm wondering about - Margaret is listed as being born in 'Dublin'...
Did your John marry a Maria/Mary Pentland ?
I'll look for Michael & Margaret in 1911...
Shane
-
Yes Shane, Mary Pentland was my Grandmother but that's even a bigger mystery. Seemingly her Mother left her in Dublin with some relation and went off to America never to be heard of again. I did notice that Margaret stated Dublin as her place of birth but put if down as an error, also her age of 40 in 1901 is a bit dubious.
-
Yes Shane I think thats them. I'm descended from John Lynch but he was married at the time of the 1901 census and living at North Dock Street. Thanks for all your help.
....
On most of the census details 'North Dock' refers to the electoral district, rather than a street. On the transcriptions the street or townland is the first part, and the Electoral District is in brackets.
This looks like it might be your John in 1901 - Lynch household, Dock Street (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Dock_Street/1274748/)
Shane
-
Yes Shane, Mary Pentland was my Grandmother but that's even a bigger mystery. Seemingly her Mother left her in Dublin with some relation and went off to America never to be heard of again. I did notice that Margaret stated Dublin as her place of birth but put if down as an error, also her age of 40 in 1901 is a bit dubious.
Even though Mary neé Pentland lists her place of birth as Dublin, the parish marriage record for her lists her parents address as Athboy.
I think this is John and Mary on the 1911 return. See what you meant earlier - this time the street is listed as 'North Dock Street North':
Lynch household 1911 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/North_Dock_Street__North/27090/)
Shane
-
Yes Shane, I did hear Athboy mentioned in the past but I think her parents married in Dublin. Don't have any info on them except that she went to America and as for him, well nothing for him at all. Pentland is a Scottish name so I thought he was probably a soldier and that the marriage ended when his Regiment got posted elsewhere.
Jimmie
-
Shane, where did you find the marriage record for Mary Pentland?
Jimmie
-
There's a parish record of the marriage on the IrishGenealogy website :
Marriage of Joannes Lynch and Maria Pentland - 24 Sept 1899 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d3bd370002370)
St. Mary's RC, Haddington Road, Dublin
Shane
-
Wow! Haven't seen one like that before!
Jimmie
-
A most interesting discussion and there is certainly a mystery but I cannot work out exactly where. The RC marriage entry clearly gives Maria (Latin for Mary) Pentland's parents as Henry and Julia and the parent's address as Athboy. There were Pentlands at or near Athboy all the way through the eighteenth, nineteenth and into the twentieth century but there is no record of Henry or Julia in 1901. The marriage entry does not say they were alive at the time of the marriage so they may have died when Mary was young or, indeed, it is possible that they died or emigrated between 1899 and 1901.
There are two death records for Henry Pentland; one in Lurgan in 1893 and one in Drogheda in 1884 neither of whom I can currently connect to a known family. there is one Julia Pentland death in Dublin in 1902 but she was the spinster daughter of William Patrick Pentland and Julia O'Toole.
In the 1901 census John Lynch's wife's age is recorded as 23 and in 1911 as 33. It is, as we all know, unusual for a woman's age to be recorded as higher than her correct age. John Lynch and Mary Pentland's marriage is also recorded in the civil registers but there her name is recorded as Mary Bridget. There is a birth record for Mary Bridget Pentland in 1881 and Family search records her parents as Matthew Pentland and Bridget Dougherty Pentland. In 1958 Bridget M. Pentland's death was recorded in Dublin at the age of 69, therefore, born in 1888/9. The nearest match I can find for her is a daughter of Matthew Pentland and Bridget Dougherty, Bridget Catherine who was born in 1888 but there is no trace of her in 1901 or 1911.
Jimmie, in your tree on Ancestry you give John Lynch's death as 1934 and details of his birth but again do not indicate the sources; , may we ask what they are?
In 1883 Matthew Pentland, widower of Nassau Street, Dublin married Charlotte Carr. When their son John Joseph was baptised the following year his sponsor was named Kate Pentland, likely his aunt which confirms that Charlotte Carr's husband was also the hisband of Bridget Dougherty.
Perhaps I am being extremely thick here but I cannot see how John Lynch can be the husband of Mary Pentland, parents Henry Pentland and Julia and also be the husband of Mary Bridget, daughter of Matthew Pentland and Bridget Dougherty.
There are a couple of other pieces of evidence which add to the picture but don't appear to solve the mystery. Two of Matthew Pentland's and Bridget Dougherty's children were enumerated in the Glassnevan orphanage in 1901 and a third was living with her aunt in Liverpool. The aunt was Julia Pentland which would suggest she was a sister of Hanry and Julia's daughter Mary but then Matthew Pentland also had two sisters called Julia; one died age two in 1865 and the second was born in 1869 which feasibly makes her Henry's wife but no proof of that has been found.
If you are now as confused as me I apologise but it does appear to be an awful mess.
-
Thanks for your reply Airtin. Am away on holiday and will respond on my return.
regards
Jimmie
-
Hi AirtHame
Thank you for your interest in my request but I am still no further forward and rather confused. This is what I know; Mary and Mary Bridget Pentland are the same person. Her biological parents were Bridget M Dougherty and Mathew Pentland who married on 7 November 1880 at St Andrews church, Dublin. Mary was born in Dublin on 5 February 1881. Soon after the birth, her mother Bridget Dougherty emigrated to USA and I am unsure if her husband, Mathew accompanied her. Meanwhile Baby Mary was sent to Athboy, Co Meath to be raised by her fathers family who I presume were Henry and Julia Pentland. Mary returned to Dublin possibly when she was sixteen to work as a Nanny for a family who resided on the South side of the City and from where she married John Lynch on 24 September 1899. Bridget Dougherty had more children in the USA and of this I am certain as a cousin of mine visited her descendant's and also her grave. Without a doubt my cousin could resolve the mystery but she is unwilling to communicate with me. Anyway this proves that the Pentland children enumerated at the Glasnevin orphanage are of a different family as they are also the wrong religion.
The detail regarding the death of John Lynch(1934) was word of mouth from a family member so it's accuracy is not guaranteed.
I am unable to explain as to why Mary Pentland Lynch's age is recorded as 23 & 33 in the 1901 & 1911 Censuses but can confirm it's incorrect.
Once again AirtinHame I thank you for your interest and would love to hear from you should you have further comment.
Kind regards
Jimmie
-
Roman Catholic Church records for St. Andrew's parish show the marriage of Matthew Pentland of 16 Crompton Court; father John Pentland, mother Bridget of 16 Crampton Road and Bridget Dougherty of 21 Anglesea St; father Christopher Dougherty, mother Mary on 7 November 1880.
church of Ireland.
The marriage of Matthew Pentland Full age, House Painter Widower of 23 Nassau Street Dublin; father John Pentland, House Painter and Charlotte Kerr Full age, Spinster, father Isaac Kerr, Steward of 24 Upper Fitzwilliam Street Dublin took place on 10 November 1883 in Dublin at St. Anne's Church of Ireland.
There then follow five children#s baptisms between 1885 and 1891. The younger died first, in 1893 followed by her mother in 1899. The two girls, Matilda and Isabella were recorded as CoI in the orphanage in 1901 but with their father marrying first in the RC then CoI church I do not see what you mean by "wrong religion". No further trace has ben found of them. Matthew jnr. was resident on the cripples' home in Bray in 1901 and died there a few years later. Of John Joseph, the eldest son no trace has been found beyond his baptism. Bridget Catherine died in Dublin, a spinster, in 1958.
It is usual logical that the daughter of the first marriage would be brought up by her grandparents. This was common practice in both Scotland and Ireland well into the twentieth century. I do not see, however, where Athboy comes into the picture. As I mentioned before there were Pentlands there well into the nineteenth century but Matthew Pentland was son of John Pentland and Bridget Smith who lived in Dublin. They also had a daughter Julia who married Ernest Wilson in Surrey in 1890 and appears with him in the following three censuses. In the 1901 and 1911 censuses their niece Mary Pentland is living with them; she died a spinster in 1935 in Liverpool.
Unless Matthew Pentland lied about his marital status in 1883 the Bridget Dougherty who emigrated to the USA cannot have been his wife. All I have found for MAry Pentland's birth is the civil record but not all Dublin church records surive and even fewer have been indexed on-line.
Roman Catholic Church records for St. Mary, Haddington Road, Dublin show the marriage of Joannes Lynch, 1 Malachy Place, Father Michaelis Lynch, Mother Margarita to Maria Pentland, 1 St Mary's Rd, Father Henricus Pentland, Mother Julia, residence Athboy on 24 September 1899; Priest Hen J Lube; Witnesses Elizabetha Greene & Gulielmus Walker.
This could be where the Athboy connection comes from. It is perfectly reasonable for John Lynch's wife to have been raised in Athboy since her parent's lived there and to have gone into service in her teens, perhaps long before she was sixteen but it is very doubtful that a child in her early to mid teens would have been given the responsibility of a nursery nurse or nanny, they were usually older. It would be most interesting to know the original source of this information.
From this analysis it appears there were two Mary Pentlands in Dublin during the relevant period. One never married and her age was correctly recorded in the 19-1 and 1911 censuses as 23 and 33. The second Mary did not marry and her age was also recorded correctly as 19 and 29 in the 1901 and 1911 censuses.
The Bridget Dougherty found in the USA no doubt existed although I have insufficient information to track her in censuses. What seems clear is that she was not the first wife of Matthew Pentland nor was she the mother of John Lynch's wife.
I hope this information helps you to sort out your mystery and thank you for helping concentrate my mind as it this review has sorted out two families who were giving me problems. All I have to do now is work out who Henry Penltand of Athboy was!
-
There is a Mathew Pentland (one T) buried Glasnevin 1892 age 38. comes up for address of Abbey St.
-
Thanks for that Dathi, interesting as that's the way he spells it on the marriage record.
-
My thanks to everyone who helped but I've reached the conclusion that my Mary Pentland was the daughter of Bridget Dougherty and Mathew Pentland and the wife of John Lynch. A senior family member informed me that Mary died in 1959 aged 77 and the Glasnevin cemetery records would seem to support this. Therefore her age recorded in the 1901/1911 Irish census are incorrect. Looking at the original form it's apparent that her husband John wrote them and for whatever reason thought she was older. Also I was unable to find a birth record for a Mary Pentland for years 1878/9.
I also believe that Bridget Dougherty was the first wife of Mathew Pentland and that the marriage failed soon after Mary was born in 1881. Mathew then married Charlotte Carr or Kerr in 1883 and they went on to have five children. Although Mathew married Bridget in a Roman catholic church, I note that the marriage to Charlotte was CoI. I also note that the five children from the marriage to Charlotte were baptised in the Roman catholic fate. I therefore assumed that because Mathew was either separated or divorced from Bridget he was barred from remarrying in a catholic church.
I believe the reason why Henry and Julia Pentland are recorded as Mary's parents in her marriage record is because they were really the only parents she ever knew as she must have been a very young baby when she was sent to Athboy to live with them. Her biological mother emigrated to USA where she remarried and had a family. Mary and Bridget were never reunited,
-
There are three problems with that conclusion:
1. At the time these events occurred divorce was not available in Ireland. If Matthew Pentland remarried while his first wife was alive he had either obtained a papal annulment, most unlikely since there as a child of the marriage, or he committed bigamy.
2. When Matthew married Charlotte Carr his marital condition was clearly stated as widowed.
3. There is clear evidence from the 1901 and 1911 censuses that Matthew Pentland's and Bridget Dougherty's daughter Mary was in Wales, then England with her aunt. Her aunt then dealt with her estate and the probate records confirm's Mary's death in 1935.
I am quite prepared to provide you with copies of any of the documents which you cannot access if that would help.
The Bridget Dougherty found in the USA is clearly someone completely unconnected with this family and if it would be of assistance I am quite prepared to look at the evidence from the USA and try to identify her connection to Ireland.
-
OK I am wrong and I agree with everything you say. I was being far too optimistic. I shall now delete all before Mary
Pentland and try once again to establish who her parents were!
-
Bridget Dougherty should never have been in the picture and now it's obvious to me that the real mother of Mary Pentland, possibly Julia, is the American connection.
-
It appears to me that the Mary who married John Lynch was the daughter of Henry Pentland and his wife Julia. There is a civil marriage entry (Register of Births, Deaths and Marriages Ireland, Dublin South Marriages V2 #628 Jul - Sep 1899. John Lynch & Mary Bridget Pentland.) and also the RC record from St Mary's, Haddington Road, which would confirms her parentage.
On the family search website there are five user submitted genealogies (http://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/33N5-7SL), all of which appear to mirror each other but
try to shoehorn the facts into the scenario in which Matthew Pentland is Mary's father which we have now disproved. It does, however also give specific dates and places for John Lynch's birth and death. Clearly 24 July 2014 is an error for his birth but Rathganny, Westmeath, Ireland seems too specific to have been imagined and his death in 1934 in Dublin Ireland points to possibilities for further information on his parentage from civil records.
The difficulty with Henry Pentland and his wife Julia is that they were, if the marriage record is accurate in tense, living in Athboy in 1899 but there are no Pentlands in Athboy in 1901. there is an alternative spelling for Pentland, Pentleton which produces a result in 1901: Mary Cassidy, widow of George Pentleton and her son George but over the three generations of the family I have identified in Athboy there was no use of the forename Henry.
There is also some evidence of Pentlands and Pentletons being recorded as Pendleton and there is one Henry Pendleton recorded in the Tithe Applotments in 1830 a Lower Drumgill, Meath. More than that I have yet to find but will come back to you if I have any success.
-
Just discovered that Mary is named as Mary Anne Pendleton on my fathers birth certificate. Confusing as her name is clearly stated as Mary Pentland on her marriage record. Anyway I am still unable to trace her.
-
Unfortunately, the name confusion does not surprise me. The problem it produces is that she may have been either a Pentland or a Pendleton and they are not necessarily the same family. There is the added confusion that Pentleton, Pentelton and Pendelton are all used interchangeably by clerks. Some search engines pick up Pendleton/Pentleton/Pedelton/Pentelton in a single search, others do not and very few see any of them as an alternative to Pentland.
I am not quite clear on what you men by "the American connection". Is there some proof that Mary Pentland, daughter of Henry and Julia emigrated? Or have I missed the point completely and are you tying to establish a connection from the USA back to Ireland?
-
No, Mary Pentland, my grandmother, never emigrated she lived most of her life in Dublin and died there c1958. A cousin of mine researched the family history and as a result made a visit to USA where she said she met the descendants of Mary's parents whoever they may be. Unfortunately my cousin doesn't wish to share this information with me and I am unsure whether these parents were Henry and Julia Pentland and indeed if they were Mary's biological parents.
Mary's age is recorded as 23 and 33 in the 1901 & 1911 Irish censuses which would mean she was born in 1887/8 but despite extensive searches the closest matches I can get is 1881. Anyway I beginning to doubt that I'l ever find her.
Kind regards
Jimmie
-
I may ahve other information which will help your search. This link http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/boardinfo.aspx?p=surnames.pentland (http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/boardinfo.aspx?p=surnames.pentland) will give you my email address. Drop me a line and we can see how else I can help.
-
Roman Catholic Church records for St. Andrew's parish show the marriage of Matthew Pentland of 16 Crompton Court; father John Pentland, mother Bridget of 16 Crampton Road and Bridget Dougherty of 21 Anglesea St; father Christopher Dougherty, mother Mary on 7 November 1880.
church of Ireland.
For what it's worth, John Pentland married to Bridget..... according to the records it is Bridget Smyth/Smith.
-
Thanks Roxanna but Mathew Pentland and Bridget Dougherty have been proved not to be the parents of the Mary Pentland I'm seeking.
-
I believe Julia went to New York and married a Mr. Blanchard.
I saw records that say Mary Pentland's father was a member of the Dublin Metropolitan Police.
-
John Lynch and Mary Pentland were married 24th Sept 1899 - St. Mary's Chruch, Haddington Road, Dublin. It shows Mary's father, Henry Pentland, was deceased and a former policeman. The 1901 census also says that John Lynch was a Crane Operator.