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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cambridgeshire => England => Cambridgeshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Bobmc on Monday 02 January 12 01:10 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for the marriage records of Jonas Read and Elizabeth walker, married in St Giles Church Cambridge 26th November 1826 by Banns. As we have it down here in Australia is, that Elizabeth Walker was married before 1826 and that she was married to a Church of England Minister and that her maiden name was Beechey.
If someone could help it would clear up a big question mark.
Jonas Read and Elizabeth Read are my 3 times Great Grandparents, as we have it, Sir William Beechey had 5 children by his first marriage and then married Ann Phyllis Jessop and had 18 children in that marriage. The way we are seeing this here in Australia is, that, because Elizabeth married Jonas, she married below her " Station", she may have been outcast from the rest of the Beechey family and no longer mentioned by them.
Hoping someone may throw a bit of light on this and point us in the direction to where there is written proof like who Elizabeth put on the Marriage records as to who her Father is.
Bobmc.
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Hi Bobmc,
Welcome to RootsChat.
I am afraid neither the banns or marriage records contain the information you require. Prior to 1837 fathers are not normally shown in parish registers and it is not stated whether or not Elizabeth was a spinster or widow.
The transcript gives the marriage as having taking place on 21 November 1826. Both were of the parish and Jonas made his mark.
Witnesses were Phebe Cresswell, John Foreman (or Freeman), James Mowlam.
Do you have an idea of the year Elizabeth was born?
Selina
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I don't know how much information you have re this couple after their marriage, census etc., so I will just add the following.
If they are the Josiah and Elizabeth listed in 1841 and the Jonah and Elizabeth listed in 1851 and 1861 then they had two children after civil registration began - Christiana in 1839 and Frederick in 1841 (he does not appear in FreeBMD but there is a Male Read which might apply).
If you purchase the birth certificate of Christiana (providing this is the right couple) it would give the maiden name of the mother and probably any other former names.
It appears that the Jonas/Josiah/Jonah above had been previously married to Martha who died in 1826.
You can search for Cambs baptisms and burials 1801-1837 on http://www.cfhs.org.uk/parish_records.html
Selina
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Sir William Beechey is listed on the Internet, and if you just type into Google Sir William Beechey children it lists the 5 children you mention + 16 more in his second marriage, however non of them are called Elizabeth, so it looks as if you can discount the story that has been passed down through the family.
regards.
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Hi Selina.
Yes you are right, but the date we have here is that Jonas Read Married Elizabeth Walker on the 26th day of November 1826. Elizabeth was the same age as Jonas, Jonas was baptised on 30th September 1798, Yes, Jonas did make his mark but Elizabeth signed her name, which to us means that she was educated, Jonas was married to Martha Black 11/05/ 1818 and she died in 1826 they had 3 sons by that marriage, Jonas 1819, Robert 1821, and Matthew 1823. Matthew died in 1826 the same year as his Mother Martha Read/ Black. He and Martha were married at St Mary's Church Middleton, Norfolk on 11/05/1818. Later on Jonas and Elizabeth had the Naggs Head Hotel in Cambridge. The children they had by their union was, Amelia 1/10 1828, Harriet 1829, William, my Great Great Granfather 11/01/1832. Emma 22/12/1833. George 25/07/1835.
Alfred, as to which we got the infromation about Elizabeth in Letters to William, b 12/02/1837. Christiana 8/02/1839 Baptised Pound Hill, and Frederick 2/05/1841 Mount Pleasant. Now William met with a horrible death here in Australia in the Northern Territory December 1870 his death was the first recorded death in the Northern Territory Taken by a Salt water crocodile.
Selina, if you would like any further info please do ask. Bobmc. all the best for the New Year To All,
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Hi Bobmc,
What everyone is trying to politely tell you is that without Christianas Birth Cert it is impossible for you to prove any of this.
There is no Baptism for a Elizabeth Beechley.
No record of her supposed Marriage to a Walker that anyone can find.
Interestingly someone has on their Tree that Christiana Read was baptised at St Annes, Wandsworth, 08 February 1839.
Hopefully someone has access to St Annes Records. If not you really need her Birth Cert.
Trish :)
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Trish - The baptism of Christiana Read daughter of Jonah and Elizabeth (Pound Hill carpenter) took place on 8 February 1839 at St. Giles, Cambridge no details of mother's maiden name.
Bobmc - you have lots of interesting information on your family, William's death was horrific!
Buying Christiana's birth certificate is the only way to go as Trish says.
Selina
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Hi Trish and Selina.
I am very thankfull for you help on this family mystery about Elizabeth Read/ Walker, yes, I agree, with you both that maybe, that will be the way to go by getting Christiana's birth certificate, this is becomming a real ENIGMA, I did have some luck finding my Great Grandmother here in Australia Williams Daughter, Jonas's Grand daughter, it was her Uncle Alfred that through letters to his brother William here in Australia that all this about Elizabeth was revealed, also Jonas.s brother in law was married to Charlotte and was Lord Grantley. Without the Internet, I can see why a lot of our family has failed to get anywhere with all this, I think with time we may get some results. to all that has replied to this, a Big Thankyou, Have a great New Year. Bobmc.
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Hi Trish and Selina.
I am very thankfull for you help on this family mystery about Elizabeth Read/ Walker, yes, I agree, with you both that maybe, that will be the way to go by getting Christiana's birth certificate, this is becomming a real ENIGMA, I did have some luck finding my Great Grandmother here in Australia Williams Daughter, Jonas's Grand daughter, it was her Uncle Alfred that through letters to his brother William here in Australia that all this about Elizabeth was revealed, also Jonas.s brother in law was married to Charlotte and was Lord Grantley. Without the Internet, I can see why a lot of our family has failed to get anywhere with all this, I think with time we may get some results. to all that has replied to this, a Big Thankyou, Have a great New Year, I think there is a bit of confusion over the name Jonas, as we have both names down here, Jonas/ Jonah andf you have both names up there too. Bobmc.
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HI Paco.
I have been into those web sites and had a look at them, Sir William Beechey was married twice, he had 5 children from his first marriage, his second marriage to Ann Phyliss Jessop produced 18 children,all children are named except for the eighteenth which shows as unknown, all up that was 23 children from both marriages not 16. Yes Paco a birth certificate would show this and I think this would be the way to go, this enigma has gone on for too many years now to be ignored we have to know who Elizabeth Read's father is and put this to rest with our families.
Best Wishes Bobmc
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Have you seen the actual Walker/Read marriage entry in the parish registers. This should tell you what the brides status was at time of marriage.
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Yes, I had it down as 23 as well. 5 from the first and 16 from the second, but they were all named on the site I went into, and as I said there was no Elizabeth on there.
regards.
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suffolk*sue - the transcript does not show their marital status, same for all marriages that year and some other years. We know Jonah was a widower so Elizabeth may well have been a widow, or not.
Her census ages and age at death indicate a birth year of 1800. 1841 she was down as born in County, 1851 and 1871 as born Cambridge and 1861 as Cambridge St. Giles.
I can't see a baptism for an Elizabeth Walker around the right time but there is at least one other possibility - an Elizabeth (Carter) baptised St. Giles who married a Walker and who was a young widow. So if the Beechey connection proves unfounded she would be worth considering. However it all depends on what the the birth certificate of Christiana reveals.
Bobmc - I do hope you will let us know what you discover when you get the birth certificate, its always nice to know the answer!
Selina
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Hi Paco. There was 23 children on the site that I was looking at 5 from the first marriage were named and 18 children by the second marriage all named but 1 the 18th child listed as unknown.
As I put the scenario before, maybe because Elizabeth married below her station it is possible she was cast out of the family as a black sheep, back in those days, families of standing did that sort of thing. this is what some of our family members seem to think happened so we will keep looking til we get to the bottom of this enigma one way or the other. Cheers for now Paco. Bobmc.
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Hi Selina.
I agree with you, as you said, the problem could be solved through Christiana's birth certificate, can you point me in the direction as to where I might start looking for her certificate. It is just a shame that we are sepparated by such a big distance I was up there early 2005 if I had have been in Cambridge I could have done some of the hard work there. Thankyou for the work you have done on this please stay in touch either way i will keep you informed. Bobmc Ps and not forgetting all the other people too.
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You have two choices for ordering the birth certificate.
From Cambridgeshire County Council Register Office - go to
http://www2.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/db/ridbirths.nsf/search?OpenForm
Fill in details to get to her entry and reference number (note you must spell Christianna with the two n's) then follow the instructions for ordering a certificate.
Or from The General Register Office
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
for that you will need details from FreeBMD as follows, you can double check this by going to http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Births Mar 1839
Read Christianna Cambridge 14 18
The reference number is different for each of the above ordering services.
Good luck
Selina
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You have two choices for ordering the birth certificate.
From Cambridgeshire County Council Register Office - go to
http://www2.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/db/ridbirths.nsf/search?OpenForm
Fill in details to get to her entry and reference number (note you must spell Christianna with the two n's) then follow the instructions for ordering a certificate.
I don't know what Cambridgeshire charge for their certificates but an additional £1 postage and handling fee will be charged per certificate. You are probably better off getting it from the gro.
Rosie
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Its a long time since I bought a cert from Cambs Register Office as I usually get several at once from different districts so use the GRO.
I just had a look and Cambs charge £9 plus the £1 postage and handling as opposed to GRO at inclusive £9.25.
Selina
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Hi Selina. I will give the latter a go, that will work out to about $23.00 Australian or there abouts. You know, it seems strange, William's brother Alfred was a school teacher when he wrote this letter about their mother, Elizabeth, being who she was related to, Alfred was 4 years younger than William and in essence I don't think Alfred would have lied about something like this about their mother who was still alive at the time, this really has all of us wondering down here, maybe there is truth to this and eventually we will arrive at the truth either way.
Thanks again for your help. Bobmc
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Hi Bobmc
I agree that it would have been strange to make up that story whilst mother was still living, usually these accounts are further removed in time. Also an unusual family to claim - woudn't have thought many working class people would have heard of them, although a school teacher probably would.
I have a distant relative who would most likely have known Jonah and Elizabeth, this family were carpenters/upholsterers and lived in the Castle Hill area. He would have doubtless visited The Nag's Head as was rather too fond of a jar or two! Eventually dying in a local pub.
Hope you get a successful conclusion to your fascinating story.
Selina
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Hi Selina.
I am having a bit of a laugh at the moment, I just read your last about your distant relative dying in a Pub, what a what a way to depart this earth, I bet he died a happy man in a place that he loved God bless him. I have one relative that I contact now and then and she is decended from the Read side and lives in South Australia at a place called Strathalbyn her name is Frances Heyer nee Read, I have the job of telling her what is going on with this search of Elizabeth. Catch up with you soon it is the start of the weekend down here, Bye for now. Bobmc
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Hi Selina.
I have just applied for a copy of Christianna Read's birth certificate and should have it down here about late January, I can hardly wait to see what maiden name there is for Elizabeth Read, if it doesn't turn out to be what we have been led to believe, then we will be happy with knowing for sure what Elizabeth's maiden name is and that will put the enigma to rest and follow up what her true maiden name is. Bobmc
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Hi Bobmc,
I shall be very interested to hear what the name is!
Whatever it is, it is well worth knowing the truth and then you can move on with your research.
Best wishes,
Selina
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Hi Selina, Trish and All, I have the information back from the General Register Office UK about Christianna Read and who her mother is, on the certificate it shows the mother as being, late Walker, nee Carter, I was not surprised with the outcome as I thought that someone back then had been telling a few Furphy's namely Alfred, William Reads younger brother as to where the information came to light about being related to the Beechey,s, sorry about the Aussie slang, Furphy's means telling tall stories. So, if any of the Beechey decendants may have been offended by this enigma I truly appologise.
Thanks to all who have pointed me in the right direction to get this information, now we know for sure who Elizabeth really is, ENIGMA ENDED at last. Bobmc.
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Hi Bobmc,
Many thanks for letting us know the outcome. At least you can carry on reseaching knowing you have established the truth - the certificate was money well spent I think.
If you refer back to my reply No. 12 - it must be the Elizabeth Carter/Walker mentioned there. From memory he died the year they married. I can let you have more details on this later.
Regards,
Selina
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Hello again,
Elizabeth Carter married George William Walker 9 March 1818, St. Giles, Cambridge. Both of the parish, she made her mark.
Witnesses: Mary Smith and William Howell.
George William Walker aged 24 husband of Elizabeth was buried at St. Giles on 30 September 1818.
From the census and death records it appeared that Elizabeth was born circa 1800. There is a baptism at St. Giles on 30 August 1800 of Elizabeth Carter daughter of William and Susan. Born 12 August 1800.
They did not appear to baptise other children at St. Giles.
The next nearest Elizabeth Carter was born in 1803 at St. Peter’s (adjoining parish to St. Giles) daughter of Edward and Mary.
There is a marriage of a William Carter to a Susanna Smith 2 June 1800 St. Clements (parish adjoins St. Giles). They baptised several children at St. Clements from 1803. Dates a little tight between this marriage and birth of Elizabeth and Carter is a common name. So just one to bear in mind really.
Selina
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Anyone still following this?
I've been having a look at the tree of my friend Andrew.
He likely descends from Christianna READ the daughter of Jonah & Elizabeth READ. From census information consistently telling us that she was born at Cambridge, that particular Christianna is the only candidate available to be his ancestor.
FreeBMD has Christianna's marriage to John CONDER which should give at least her father if the cert is ordered (not me as they are not my people).
FreeBMD
Marriages 3Q 1859
John CONDER, Cambridge 3b, 787
Christiana READ, Cambridge 3b, 78
John CONDER was a school master and a minister.
They lived at a National School at St Anne's in Wandsworth London in 1861 where John was a schoolmaster, in 1871 were at 21 & 23 Park Road Battersea (converted into one house) when John was a Royal College Preceptor, and in 1881 John was a Rector at Wendy in Cambridgeshire.
Two baptisms of children in 1864 and 1866 have them at Halbrake House at New Wandsworth/Battersea, so I think that the location in 1861 and 1871 will be the same and it will be Halbrake School aka College.
http://www.census1891.com/streets-h.php
Halbrake College, Battersea, WANDSWORTH
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SOUTH-AFRICA-IMMIGRANTS-BRITISH/2005-09/1128012346
".....While searching for some of my UK roots in the 1881 census, I came across a few South African-born youngsters at boarding school.
The following three, all born "Cape of Good Hope", were at 17/19/21/23 Park Road, Halbrake College, Battersea, Surrey, England (1881 UK Census).....Other students at the College came from far and wide, including Burma, France, Trinidad & Tobago and even "Hindostan"....."
There were not many pupils with John in the 1871 census, just 14, but maybe not all the students were boarding at the one place. He had two assistant masters and 6 servants in the household which seems like overkill for just 14 students and his family (5 children at that stage, had 9 altogether). Not sure.
Just found this:
http://oro.open.ac.uk/18803/1/pdf02.pdf
The Metamophosis of Battersea, 1800-1914, a Building History
Ph.D Thesis, The Open University, by K.A. Bailey (1995)
"Private education was still available in Battersea during the School Board era, including the long-established Sir Walter St. John's and Battersea Grammar Schools, but affected only a tiny proportion of children. Local directories for 1891/2 list 26 "schools", located in ordinary dwelling houses, mostly small terraced properties. Only two of them were run by men - Thomas Montelli's preparatory school at 43 Bennerley Road and the Rev. J. Parr's Halbrake School at 21/3 Park Road, New Wandsworth. The rest were run by women, virtually all spinsters. Ten were for "ladies", two for "girls" and four were "preparatory". Sixteen of these establishments were located in or to the south of Lavender Hill-St. Johns Hill, and none in the typically working-class streets of north Battersea except Miss E. Adams' ladies' school (54 Cabul Road) and Mrs. Mary Hannington's (114 New Road). It is unlikley that these schools accommodated more than 20-30 pupils on average, providing in total less than half of one typical board school."
The details given for the family of Jonah & Elizabeth READ earlier in this thread don't quite gel.
1841 census has (probable) issue Matthew 15, William 9, Alfred 4, Christianna 2 and Frederic 7 weeks. Can't be 100% sure with relationships not given in 1841.
1851 census has Susan 21, Christianna 12, and Fredrick 10, as definite children.
The list given earlier in the thread doesn't mention Susan or Matthew (who can't be the one died 1826). There is no sign in 1841 census or 1851 census of these issue from that list, Amelia, Harriet, Emma and George.
Unless there were multiple burials and kids coming and going from the family at census time, The list of issue given earlier in the thread doesn't gel properly with the lists in census information.
Early days yet, maybe I haven't been at this long enough to sort it out, but those lists need to be reconciled with each other. I haven't had a go at OPR data yet.
Christianna's son Eric CONDER married Eliza Louisa (Louisa) RUMBLE in 1901, part of a complicated set of marriages. When Louisa died, Eric remarried 1917 to her sister Ann Ellen RUMBLE who had previously been married 1901 to Robert Stephen LOVE who had previously been married 1880 to Fanny POWIS.
Eric & Louisa's children:
Daughter Florence emigrated to New Zealand where she married 1924 Basil William CHISNALL. Her sister Kathleen married Harold BOSTON 1927 at Acton and they also went to New Zealand. Sister Vera married Laurence PORTCH. Sister Ethel Margarita married her first cousin, Frederick Charles LOVE, who was the son of Robert & Ann. I don't know what happened to sister Madeline.
Peter
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I forgot to ask this question:
How sure are you Bobmc that William in Australia was the son of Jonah/Jonas READ & Elizabeth CARTER, so that you are not on a wild goose chase?
Some of the children you mention as their issue don't fit with their children in census data.
It could be that you have a correct set of siblings for your William that you may have mistakenly grafted onto the children of Jonah & Elizabeth in the 1851 census because you think young William in that family, who has a brother Alfred, will be yours? What if he isn't?
In that case the death information of Christianna proves nothing about your ancester William's parents, just about William in the 1851 census. You still have to prove that William the son of Jonah/Jonas & Elizabeth in 1851 is your William.
If you have in fact picked on the wrong William, then that would explain why you haven't been able to find out about the BEECHEY connection described by your Alfred in his his letter to your William..
Peter
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I finally got into the LDS records and I see that Amelia, Harriet, Emma and George were indeed baptised to Jonah & Elizabeth as were the others.
So that leaves only the question, how good is the evidence that William the son of Jonah & Elizabeth at Cambridge is the same person as William who married Margaret MCMAHON? i.e. what is it at the Australian end that points to Jonah in Cambridge as the father?
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Here's Christiana and Alfred in the same household. By this time Christiana's husband John CONDER had passed away.
05 Apr 1891 Census of England & Wales
@ 13 Mill Hill Rd, Acton, Middlesex
Alfred READ Head Marr 54 Laundry Proprietor b. Cambridge
Christiana CONDER Sister Widow 52 b. Cambridge
Kate CONDER Niece Single 28 Manageress Laundry b. Wandsworth, Surrey
Ellen CONDER Niece Single 25 b. Wansworth, Surrey,
Cyril CONDER Nephew 16 Learning Mech. Engineering b. Wandsworth, Surrey
Alfred was previously a School Master just like John CONDER his brother-in-law. John witnessed the wedding of Alfred and his wife Mary Judith Broome SPENCER whom he married in 1860. At this census Mary must have been visiting somewhere because she wasn't deceased till 1909, and in fact, Alfred (died 1898), Christianna (died 1901) and Mary (died 1909) are buried in the same plot at Acton Cemetery.
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William Read parents are definitely Jonas Read and Elizabeth, formerly Walker.
The family's relationship to Sir William Beechey, is through Alfred who married Judith Broome Spencer, who was Sir William's granddaughter. Although, in those times, after a marriage, the couple adopted each other families, Alfred carried it a bit too far, by evidently claiming his wife's relatives for all of his own family.