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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: teckyhead on Friday 03 February 12 05:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I found this board whilst doing some research, so I thought I'd ask about a curious situation with my great grandfather, Wilfred Eric Harper. I have some information from family and some from doing searches but there are mismatches and quirks in some of the info. Here's what I know so far and where the info came from (at this stage most of my searches have been on the ancestry.com.au website):
Information that I received from my uncle says his grandparents were:
Wilfred Eric Harper b. ?/?/1875 in Mannum, South Australia d. 4 Aug 1921 aged 46 years
Rachel May Johnson (which I've since discovered is Rachel May Johnston) - this is how I found this forum. A post at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,503076.20.html mentions the Johnston family from Ouyen and May (Rachel May).
Online records list a Wilfred Eric Harper who died in 1921 in Mildura aged 52. That's the first problem - 6 years difference in the age provided by my uncle vs. the online record - and it's a very important point as I'll explain shortly. I do know that my grandfather (Robert John Harper) and several of his siblings were born in Ouyen.
Here's the next issue. Some years ago Ken MacKenzie Wright wrote a book titled 'A Land Fit For Heroes'. He talks about our family, but references a 'Wilfred Edward Harper' whose military record I found here:
http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=127661
It says in the 'misc details' that his given names were 'Wilfred Ernest'.
I had dismissed this Wilfred as a different person until I noticed a couple of things:
1. He (Wilfred Ernest) enlisted from the Murray Bridge area which is just south of Mannum where my great grandfather was born. One conflicting issue is that my grandfather was born in Ouyen in 1913 so I'm not sure why Wilfred would be back in S.A. in 1915.
2. He enlisted at age 46 and was only away for 7 months from Sep 1915 to April 1916. That works if he actually died at age 52 rather than at age 46 and fits in with the birth dates of my grandfather and his siblings.
What muddies this a bit further is that the death records at the ancestry website for the parents of Charles Wilfred Eric Harper (a confirmed sibling of my grandfather) shows as:
Fathers Name: Erne William
Mothers Name: Rachel May Johnston
Another sibling's death record, Alan Vincent Hartshorn (he changed his name from Harper) shows:
Fathers Name: Wilfred Harper
Mothers Name: Mabel
Yet another sibling, Leslie Rex Joseph Harper has the parents:
Fathers name: Eric Wilfred
Mothers Name: Mab Rachel
I'm not sure where Mabel Harper fits in but she does show as sharing the same address as Rachel May Harper in Ballarat according to electoral records. Charles, Leslie and Alan were definitely brothers and there's no suggestion of a Jack Thompson-esque arrangement in their household :).
Much of the Harper info I have has come from my uncle and he also said the following:
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I do not think that Wright’s facts are correct. A search of Boer War records does not show a Wilfred Eric Harper as Soldier No. 697 but does show a Wilfred Ernest Harper as Soldier No. 679. This is definitely not my grandfather as this man was aged 46yrs 5mths at enlistment and my grandfather died in 1921 aged 46 years+
The following is correct, however :
On return to Australia from the war great grandfather Harper was allocated a Soldier Settler block in Red Cliffs.
He died of stomach cancer on 04.12.1921, aged 46 years (some 13 years before I was born).
This left Grandmother Harper in all sorts of difficulties and unable to care for her children ( 8 ) and maintain the block at the same she had no choice but to put it up for sale..
She moved to Ballarat where she obtained a position as a cook at the Ballarat Orphanage (Victoria Street, Ballarat East) with accommodation made available at that institution for the children.
Later on in life she also worked for a time as a cook for the then Premier of Victoria, Sir Henry Bolte, and his shearers, on his property at Meredith.
She never remarried following the death of her husband, Will.
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That raises the question of where Wilfred Eric Harper died. The only listing I could find for a Wilfred Eric Harper that died in 1921 is the one at Mildura.
I noticed that in previous posts, the BMD CD's have been mentioned. Do they have additional or more accurate info and is it worth purchasing them to try and figure out the answer to this mystery?
What should my next step be?
Gary
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The Wilfred Eric HARPER that died 1921 in Mildura has these names as his parents are they correct?
HARPER Wilfred Eric age 52yrs d. 1921 MILDURA #15181
Father: Harper Saml
Mother: Norah RYAN
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I can't find a birth for a Wilfred Eric HARPER in SA in 1875.
HARPER Wilfred Eric
Father Harper Samuel Mother Norah RYAN
At Mildura 52 years 1921 Reg#15181
There is a digitised WW1 service record that you need to read which will give you more information.
Wilfred's attestation paper - mention of Ouyen
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp?B=4420282&S=1&T=R
Search on http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/
Cando
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I wonder if there has been some name changes..
There is this birth
HARPER William James
Father Samuel Mother Honora RYAN
1875 at BOLI Reg#7335
Cando
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Thanks for the pointers - I'll check them out.
Yes, I became quite confused regarding Norah and Honorah (another spelling on some records). There's also a transcription from the grave of Samuel and Hanora.
Gary
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Hi and a very very big welcome to Rootschat the premier site for tracking those illusive ancestors. ;D ;D
Gee you made the first one a good post, lots of info. :D
Have you purchased the Victorian death record? If not do so the Victorian records are second to none they will show any marriages and living or dead spuses same for children, well worth the money.
Thats the first step. Dont rely on DC for ages, it is or could be someone who may have not known the correct age. It very much depends on the closeness of the informant.
Once you have that a lot of your questions may be answered. :D
Also marriage cert for last of wives if more than one. It again will have direct from the horses mouth about ages and names. 8)
RED FLAG.....You need to find the correct birth first by the looks of things.
Neil ;)
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I can't find a birth for a Wilfred Eric HARPER in SA in 1875.
HARPER Wilfred Eric
Father Harper Samuel Mother Norah RYAN
At Mildura 52 years 1921 Reg#15181
There is a digitised WW1 service record that you need to read which will give you more information.
Wilfred's attestation paper - mention of Ouyen
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp?B=4420282&S=1&T=R
Search on http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/
Cando
Yep - that's the record my uncle mentioned. It's in the right place, with possibly the right wife but we're not sure he belongs to our family due to other sketchy info.
Gary
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What muddies this a bit further is that the death records at the ancestry website for the parents of Charles Wilfred Eric Harper (a confirmed sibling of my grandfather) shows as:
Fathers Name: Erne William
Mothers Name: Rachel May Johnston
Another sibling's death record, Alan Vincent Hartshorn (he changed his name from Harper) shows:
Fathers Name: Wilfred Harper
Mothers Name: Mabel
Yet another sibling, Leslie Rex Joseph Harper has the parents:
Fathers name: Eric Wilfred
Mothers Name: Mab Rachel
Death certificates are so often inaccurate. I would not base my research from information on death certs...need to look further.
Births
HARPER Chas Wilfred Eric
Father Wilfred Eric Mother Mabel JOHNSTON
at Ouyen 1914 Reg#25166
HARPER Alan Verdun
14 Mar 1916
Father Wilfred Eric HARPER Mother Mabel JOHNSTON
At Prospect Ade 975/155
Cross Reference See also: HARTSHORN Alan Vincent - same details.
HARPER Kathleen Mary
24 Jun 1917
Father Wilfred Ernest HARPER Mother Mabel JOHNSTON
At Parkside Ade 1A/385
Are you confusing the generations?
Cando
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Hi and a very very big welcome to Rootschat the premier site for tracking those illusive ancestors. ;D ;D
Have you purchased the Victorian death record? If not do so the Victorian records are second to none they will show any marriages and living or dead spuses same for children, well worth the money.
Thanks for the warm welcome and HUGE tip. I did a search on the VIC BDM site and found one entry for one of my grandfather's siblings. I purchased the image and it listed the parents as:
Father: Wilfred Eric Harper
Mother: Rachel Mable Jean Harper (maiden name Johnstone)
The informant was my great uncles wife and I believe Johnstone is an incorrect spelling of Johnston.
Armed with the confirmation that his father's name really was Wilfred Eric I then purchased the image for Wilfred Eric Harper. It confirmed that he had been from Red Cliffs (i.e. the soldier settler land), had died from 'Gastric Carcinoma'. It also lists his age as 52 (not 46 as we had believed) and lists my grandfather and all of his siblings and a Johnston as the wife. It's a hand written record of 'Deaths in the district of Mildura' and the wife's name looks kind of like 'Mab' which explains why that showed up in some of the online records at ancestry.
It's certainly confirmed that the Wilfred who is buried at Mildura cemetery is ours.
As my uncle mentioned, when Wilfred died, my great grandmother was left with eight children to care for. Their ages are also listed at the time he died. They were 9, 8, 7, 5, 4, 2 and twin girls who were under 2 years of age. It must have been such a tough time for her. They had married when he was 40, so had only been married for 12 years.
It does seem that Wilfred travelled around the eastern states a bit as the record says he was married in Tasmania (that may help in tracing my great grandmother's side of the family) and I know that one of his children was born in Wentworth, NSW.
The informant for Wilfred's death was 'Sydney Clarence Austin - Authorised Agent'.
Thanks again for that tip. I had been to the Vic BDM site but it hadn't even crossed my mind to purchase images.
Gary
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Hi Cando,
What muddies this a bit further is that the death records at the ancestry website for the parents of Charles Wilfred Eric Harper (a confirmed sibling of my grandfather) shows as:
Fathers Name: Erne William
Mothers Name: Rachel May Johnston
Another sibling's death record, Alan Vincent Hartshorn (he changed his name from Harper) shows:
Fathers Name: Wilfred Harper
Mothers Name: Mabel
Yet another sibling, Leslie Rex Joseph Harper has the parents:
Fathers name: Eric Wilfred
Mothers Name: Mab Rachel
Death certificates are so often inaccurate. I would not base my research from information on death certs...need to look further.
Births
HARPER Chas Wilfred Eric
Father Wilfred Eric Mother Mabel JOHNSTON
at Ouyen 1914 Reg#25166
HARPER Alan Verdun
14 Mar 1916
Father Wilfred Eric HARPER Mother Mabel JOHNSTON
At Prospect Ade 975/155
Cross Reference See also: HARTSHORN Alan Vincent - same details.
HARPER Kathleen Mary
24 Jun 1917
Father Wilfred Ernest HARPER Mother Mabel JOHNSTON
At Parkside Ade 1A/385
Are you confusing the generations?
Cando
Thanks for the info Those records are interesting. All 3 that you posted are confirmed siblings of my grandfather. Interesting that the 2 older ones were born in SA. That would again make me lean toward believing he is the Wilfred that enlisted in SA in 1915. Charles ended up in Ballarat but apparently suffered some sort of illness all of his life and died (in Ballarat) in 1954 aged 40.
Gary
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Gary thank you for typing up the info. If only all researchers were as willing to purchase certs to validate the information.
I am wondering why the name HARTSHORN is on the birth register.
I can't see a HARPER/JOHNSON marriage record in Tasmania or Victoria for that matter. Perhaps someone else find it.
Another birth
HARPER Stanley Francis
Father Wilfred Ernest Mother Rachel May JOHNSTON
At Ouyen 1912 Reg#6154
HARPER Robert John
Father Wilfred Eric Mother Mable JOHNSTON
At Ouyen 1913 Reg#6558
Cando
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Charles ended up in Ballarat but apparently suffered some sort of illness all of his life and died (in Ballarat) in 1954 aged 40. teckyhead
From Ballarat Cemetery
HARPER, CHARLES WILFRED Pensioner. Died 1/3/1954. Aged 39. Location New Cemetery. RC D 8. 2. 16
Last address1003 Doveton Street North Ballarat.
With
HARPER RACHEL MAY. Widow . Died 14/8/1964. Aged 74.
Last address 124 Joseph Stret Ballarat.
Sue
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Mention of a Samuel HARPER at Riddells Creek
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0k2w/
Marriage
HARPER Samuel
RYAN Honora
1865 Reg#3885
Cando
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Gary thank you for typing up the info. If only all researchers were as willing to purchase certs to validate the information.
I am wondering why the name HARTSHORN is on the birth register.
I have a theory :). I wonder whether he needed his birth certificate for identification for some reason and a mistake had been made when he was born. Rather than go through the process of having a birth record changed he may have just changed his name to match the birth certificate. My uncle said that it was something that just happened and no-one appeared to know why.
He enlisted in the army during WWII. Interestingly, he lists his mother as 'Rachel May Harper' on his army service form. I'll have to do some more digging, because according to the electoral records Rachel May and Mabel Harper are two different people who lived at various addresses around Ballarat and at one point were in the same house.
Gary
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His birth was definitely registered as HARPER with a cross reference to HARTSHORN. I would imagine this was done at the time of registration.
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February 03, 2012, 06:52:30 AM
Cheers
Cando
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Charles ended up in Ballarat but apparently suffered some sort of illness all of his life and died (in Ballarat) in 1954 aged 40. teckyhead
From Ballarat Cemetery
HARPER, CHARLES WILFRED Pensioner. Died 1/3/1954. Aged 39. Location New Cemetery. RC D 8. 2. 16
Last address1003 Doveton Street North Ballarat.
With
HARPER RACHEL MAY. Widow . Died 14/8/1964. Aged 74.
Last address 124 Joseph Stret Ballarat.
Sue
Thanks for that. As a child, from around the age of 5 (1968) until 12 my mother used to take me and my sister visit my grandmother at that very house every Sunday afternoon.
I guess Great Grandma Harper spent her final years with Grandma Harper.
Gary
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Thanks for all the information and help. I think the two most important things I've learned today are:
1. Ask, and you might be surprised how generous people are with their time and information.
2. Be very, very wary of records on websites that have been transcribed from a summary.
I made one final purchase - relating to the death of Rachael May Harper. It confirmed that her husband was Wilfred Eric Harper and had all of my grandfather's siblings listed.
She died at the Queen Elizabeth Home in Ballarat in 1964. Co-incidentally, my mother worked at the QEH for around 10 years and worked her way up to be the deputy director of nursing there before she had to retire due to some heart trouble.
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Alan also changed his 2nd given name
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/veteran.asp?ServiceID=A&VeteranID=660341
Perhaps it was a question of paternity. Rachel May JOHNSTON is named as a mother on one of the HARPER birth registrations.
I note there is a William James HARPER on the 1909 at Moonee Ponds with occupation Agent.
I think we have another who changed names - there is no Rachel May prior to 1949 or Mabel Jean post 1949...?same person.
Australian Electoral Roll
1931, 1936, 1937, 1949
HARPER Mabel Jean 200 Victoria Street, Ballarat Cook
and handwritten two entries - not sure what NE means ?new enrolment
HARPER Mabel Jean 28 Hopetoun Street Ballarat HD NE reinstated 27.2.50
HARPER Rachel May 28 Hopetoun Street Ballarat HD NE 23.1.50
Cando
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Gary at what age did the death cert state that Rachel May had married....and where?
Cando
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Gary at what age did the death cert state that Rachel May had married....and where?
Cando
Aha - Wilfred's says Hobart but Rachael's says she was 17 years old and it was in Coburg, Victoria. So that would be in 1907 as she was born in 1890.
Gary
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Birth:
JOHNSTON Rachel May b. 1890 WARRACKNABEAL #37282
Father: John
Mother: Mary EAGLE
Death:
HARPER Rachael May age 74yrs d. 1964 BALL #18404
Father: Johnston John
Mother: Mary EAGLE
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Thanks Merlin!
Gary
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Death
HARPER Samuel Gleghorn
Father Andrew Mother Maria GLEGHORN
At Riddells Creek 67 years 1902 Reg#15566
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ausvsac/Riddells_Creek.htm
HARPER Samuel, Sarah, Christopher, Honora
Carol will send you a photo of the headstone on request. Wonderful service :)
Mr William E HARPER of Riddell’s Creek 1907….charged with deserting his wife and theft
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0k36/
Marriage
HARPER William born Victoria
SMITH Annie Maria Born Scarsdale
1900 Reg#1747
There is only one listing for a William Ernest HARPER on the rolls.
Australian Electoral Rolls
1903
HARPER Honora Riddells Creek HD
HARPER Robert Laurence Riddells Creek Labourer
HARPER William Ernest Riddells Creek Labourer
HARPER Annie Maria Riddells Creek HD
What do you think now?
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Marriage 19 Jan 1900 422 Queens Street Melbourne
William HARPER Bachelor Born Riddells Creek Victoria 24 years Occupation Gentleman
Father Samuel HARPER, Gentleman Mother Hannah RYAN
Present address for both parties 17 Hopkins Street Footscray
Annie Marie SMITH Widow 1898 3 chn 1 decd Born Tarradale Vic 36 years Occupation None
Parents Charles FRASER Mother Maria LUSH
Married to the rites of the Free Christian Church.
So the year of birth is a match along with the parents. I do think that this is your Wilfred Eric/Ernest HARPER although the signatures have some differing characteristics. However if he had left his wife and had been charged with desertion and theft he may have attempted to alter his handwriting.
Births
HARPER George Eric
Father William Mother Anne Maria FRASER
At Riddells Creek 1902 Reg#5719
HARPER Ira Chas Norman
Father William Mother Anna Maria FRASER
At Riddells Creek 1905 Reg#13363
Death of a stepson
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0k3a/
SMITH Leslie James
Father Smith Jno Phil Mother Anna Maria FRASER
At Riddells Creek 1902 10 years Reg#15567
Deaths
HARPER Anna Maria
Father Fraser Charles Mother Maria UNKNOWN
At Yarra Junction 76 years 1938 Reg#17358
ROBERTSON Gertrude Amelia
Father Smith Jno Mother Ann Maria FRASER
At Fitzroy South 35 years 1926 Reg#5286
HARPER Ira Charles
Father William Mother Annie Maria FRASER
At Fitzroy 69 years 1975 Reg#9983
SMITH Frederick James
Father Frederick James Mother Annie Maria FRASER
At Parkville 65 years 1967 Reg#17975
George Eric attempted to enlist in 1917 stating he was 18 years of age. Birth reg 1902.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp?B=4420031&S=1&T=R
There is also a digitised WW2 service record. He was a POW.
George Eric and wife Violet Myrtle Jane on electoral rolls in 1977 in Mermaid Beach, Qld. According to his WW2 service file he died 1980.
Cando
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Death
HARPER Samuel Gleghorn
Father Andrew Mother Maria GLEGHORN
At Riddells Creek 67 years 1902 Reg#15566
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ausvsac/Riddells_Creek.htm
HARPER Samuel, Sarah, Christopher, Honora
Carol will send you a photo of the headstone on request. Wonderful service :)
Mr William E HARPER of Riddell’s Creek 1907….charged with deserting his wife and theft
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0k36/
Marriage
HARPER William born Victoria
SMITH Annie Maria Born Scarsdale
1900 Reg#1747
There is only one listing for a William Ernest HARPER on the rolls.
Australian Electoral Rolls
1903
HARPER Honora Riddells Creek HD
HARPER Robert Laurence Riddells Creek Labourer
HARPER William Ernest Riddells Creek Labourer
HARPER Annie Maria Riddells Creek HD
What do you think now?
What a mystery :). I'll have to check with my uncle. When I was speaking to him prior to doing some research he made a kind of tongue in cheek remark about the distant Harpers being 'crooks'. I wonder if William left Annie and became Wilfred to marry the very young (17yo) Rachel. Very curious indeed.
Gary
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I think Wilfred left Annie and didn't marry Rachel May/Mabel Jean.
Lots of name changing makes it difficult however if you look at all the facts [perhaps leaving out the family stories for the moment] it appears to me....
William James [later Ernest then Wilfred Ernest/Eric] HARPER was born 1875 to Samuel and Hanora RYAN. I have a record from the Kyneton Hospital where Samuel and family are listed. I will type it up later. Wm then marries Annie FRASER, a widow who is 12 years older then he, in 1900. After the death of a step-child and his father, he leaves Riddells Creek and heads up north to the area around Beulah, where the last JOHNSTON child was born 1900. It is also possible that the JOHNSTON family were already living in Ouyen at this time.
The JOHNSTON children were born in Warracknabeal, Jeparit, Bealah and next William James/Ernest appears on the electoral roll in 1914 as Wilfred with May [Rachel] and her parents living in Ouyen. His occupation is agent same as on his attestation papers. Their first two children are born in Ouyen in 1912 and 1913 so I very much doubt there was a marriage in 1907...that is the year Wm left Riddell's Creek. Now why did Wilfred head for SA....was he afraid of being found in Ouyen and if he did marry, being charged with bigamy. There is no marriage on the indexes.
His son George Eric attempted to enlist in 1917 and he and his mother Annie, stated that Wm was deceased. There is no death registered for the death of a Wm with parents Samuel HARPER and Hanora RYAN in the period 1907 to 1917.
Then we have what I think is the doubtful paternity of Alan Verdun who became Alan Vincent HARTSHORN. This is noted on the birth register. Most odd.
Next odd thing. Why did Rachel May call herself Mabel Jean? The electoral listing of Mabel Jean HARPER, cook living at 200 Victoria Street, Ballarat matches your story of Rachel May gaining employment as a cook at the Ballarat Orphanage. 200 Victoria Street, Ballarat is the former Orphange's address.
It would seems that Rachel May may have lived with Robert and Catherine HARPER prior to her death at 28 Joseph Street.
Gary when I get time I will have a look at the local records and newspapers and see if I can find what sort of an agent Wilfred was...I know it is stated commission agent....but I may find an advertisement or some such.
....and as I have mentioned many times.....all research is purely speculative until verified.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks for all your research cando :)
Here are some interesting facts which had actually led me to believe that Samuel/Honorah were Wilfred's parents early in my research. I later dismissed them as another family but after your info I'm leaning toward it again.
One confusing issue is that the death record from Mildura states his age at 52 when he died. That seemed to fit with the Wilfred Harper that fought in the Boer war as he stated his age at 46 when he enlisted in 1915 - which would put his birth around 1869 - which also works with age 52 at time of death in 1921.
First piece of info - on the death record from Mildura it says his parents are Samuel Harper (grazier) and Norah Harper (maiden name Ryan). (Bingo?)
I also found an online database for the Ryan family at http://www.eryan.spiderweb.com.au/. It lists several thousand people. If you go to page 2 - Ryan Database E-H and search for Wilfred Eric you will find him listed. It has columns that cross reference the parents. Father is #6004 - Samuel Harper, born c. 1839 in Antrim Ireland and died c. 1902. The mother is #5982 - she is on the R-S page and is Honorah Ryan born c. 1843 in Clare, Ireland and died c. 1929.
Thoughts?
Gary
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Have you seen this info - even confused the researchers here.
http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/ozb/oz_boer_more.cgi?record=8300
Source:#431 Posting dated 12 August 2002 in the Rootsweb AUS-MILITARY mailing list and emails of 4 & 6 February 2011 from Julie Robinson, England re her grandfather (citing 1999 family history by W Harper)
I wonder why Wilfred gave his age as 46 years 5 months in 1915 when he was only 40 years plus ? months being born 1875. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen errors in ages on attestation papers but it is usually only the very young who increase their age when enlisting.
It would be interesting to see William James 1875 birth certificate to see what month he was born. As the age on the attestation paper in Sep 1915 was 46 years 5 months....I wonder if this should have been 40 years 5 months.
I need to look again at the record for HARPER, Samuel born Ireland, in Colony 33 years with wife Hannah and children ? Patrick 10, John 8, Sarah 6, Wm James 3, and ? 1½ years who were listed in the Kyneton Hospital register of families. It is very difficult to read. Lists his father's name which I can't remember. Get back to this later.
The information on the linked database sounds correct. Samuel died 1902 and Hanorah 1929. I thought I posted a long post with all that info....probably got side tracked as I am trying to do a number of things at the same time...joys of living on a farm.
Info on death certs only as accurate as the knowledge of the informant but where would the informant get the info about Wilfred's parents. That parts is obviously correct. Genealogy is not an exact science and you really need to consider what matches with this info.
Being called :)
Cheers
Cando
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HARPER Samuel.
Hospital record Kyneton
Born Ireland 39 years In Colony 33 years
Father - Harper, Angle. Wheelwright
Parents married - 1862
Mother Gladhocee, Mary
Spouse: Hanora, Ryan
Kyneton Hospital Record of families of patients 1869-1884.
HARPER Samuel.
Hospital record 29 June 1877
Place Riddells Creek
Birth Place Ireland.
39 years Status Married Occupation Sawyer
Religion - Presbyterian
Kyneton Hospital Admissions Registers 1862 - 1885.
Comment Discharged 7/7/1877
Result - cured Fractured ribs
Note or recommender - Accident
This may be of interest
HARPER Stanley Francis.
Funeral notice Died 29 Jul /91
Cemetery Mildura Cemetery
Father of Mariene
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This may be of interest
HARPER Stanley Francis.
Funeral notice Died 29 Jul /91
Cemetery Mildura Cemetery
Father of Mariene
Definitely. That's my Great Uncle Stan. I knew he was born in 1914 and died at Red Cliff but didn't know the date that he died. Thanks!
I found some more info in the military archive. There are 33 documents at http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=4420282 and the last few are about his war medals. One of the medals was issued to his widow in 1925, stating that he was deceased. Document no. 31, dated 29/12/24 has 'Widows Address' as 10 Austin Street Footscray. I looked at some electoral records but the only Harper I could find at that address was Ada Harper in 1914. Interestingly Annie/Anna Maria Harper was on the electoral role in Footscray from 1914-1937.
That may well be the Annie Maria that you found the marriage record for .. to William?/Wilfred?.
What a tangled web... :)
Gary
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Gary I thought you would have read all the WW1 file before this. I simply assumed you had all that information. Yes I also noted the electoral rolls info. I didn't post it as you said you were using ancestry. I don't post everthing that I find as you have access to the records.
It is the right marriage record. I purchased and dowloaded the certificate and typed up all the details. Yes it is Annie Maria and I have given you her death information also.
I don't think it is a tangled web. All the information is there. I think both Wm/Wilfred and Rachel changed their names and Wm E was probably wanted in relation to the desertion of his wife and sons and step children. It does appear however that when George Eric enlisted his mother signed the consent stating his father was deceased...well I guess he might as well have been ;D
I think I have just about exhausted my resources.
If you want more validation about Wilfred/Wm James I suggest you download his birth cert to see what month in 1875 he was born and see if it tallies with him being 40 years 5 months in Sept 1915.
I will see if I can find anything in the Police Gazettes....but not tonight ;D
Cheers :)
Cando
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http://www.britishmedals.us/files/127scothorse.htm
HARPER William Ernest 31632* Trooper 15/02/1901 25/10/1901 Discharged Completion of Service
Once again Wm/Wilfred has not been accurate with his information. He states on his attestation papers that he had 1 year 11 months active service in South Africa. As you can see from the transcribed records from Kew he was enlisted for a little over 8 months.
Cando
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Gary I thought you would have read all the WW1 file before this. I simply assumed you had all that information. Yes I also noted the electoral rolls info. I didn't post it as you said you were using ancestry. I don't post everthing that I find as you have access to the records.
Yep - sorry. I suffer a bit of information overload from time to time. :) I think I need to go through and record all of the verified and unverified info and see how it looks.
If you want more validation about Wilfred/Wm James I suggest you download his birth cert to see what month in 1875 he was born and see if it tallies with him being 40 years 5 months in Sept 1915.
I will see if I can find anything in the Police Gazettes....but not tonight ;D
Thanks :). I downloaded William's birth certificate and he was born in Riddells Creek on the 14th April 1875 - 40 years and 5 months before his enlistment.
It really does look like William may have done an identity change and lied about his age when he enlisted.
Gary
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http://www.britishmedals.us/files/127scothorse.htm
HARPER William Ernest 31632* Trooper 15/02/1901 25/10/1901 Discharged Completion of Service
Once again Wm/Wilfred has not been accurate with his information. He states on his attestation papers that he had 1 year 11 months active service in South Africa. As you can see from the transcribed records from Kew he was enlisted for a little over 8 months.
Cando
Just adding in relation to the info on this website
http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/ozb/oz_boer_more.cgi?record=8300
There was a William John E(a)rnest HARPER who enlisted in the 5th Batt. WW1 and who says he also served in the 3rd NSW Imperial Bushmen in South Africa. This is the person that source 1047 is referring to.
Source 431 gives details for your man and is saying that they are not the same person. There was perhaps confusion at some stage between researchers. (Possibly because they both married to a SMITH, though WJE's wife appears to have actually been a SCHMIDT)
I think they are saying that it was William John Ernest who was awarded the QSA medal, not Wilfred. ???
Debra :)
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I found a record in the PROV database that looks like it relates to the arrest of William E Harper reported on Feb 20 1907. There was a William E Harper convicted on Jan 23 1908. The offence is listed as 'maintenance'. Under 'Sentence' it says 'To pay 5/- weekly' and then says 'In default Imprisonment Indefinite'. The case was tried at 'Gisborne Petty Sessions'.
For personal details it says height was 5ft 6 1/2", hair brown and eyes grey. Date of birth says 1876. Under 'previous history' it just says 'married'. He was held at Melbourne Gaol from 24 Jan 1908 until 11 Jul 1908 and there's a note in red with the release date that says 'To Freedom Special Authority'. His occupation says 'hair dresser' which is interesting as the other part of the arrest involved theft of hair clippers.
The medical info for Wilfred Ernest Harper's enlistment in 1915 says his height was 5ft 6 1/4", hair grey and eyes grey.
Gary
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There was a William John E(a)rnest HARPER who enlisted in the 5th Batt. WW1 and who says he also served in the 3rd NSW Imperial Bushmen in South Africa. This is the person that source 1047 is referring to. DEBRA
Forgive me if this birth has already been posted ???
HARPER Wm John Ernest
Father Alfred Joseph
Mother Mary SMITH
Birth Place WOOD
Year 1881
Reg Number 27017
Sue
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Garry, William Harper Wilfred or Wills as he seems to be also known as was born 14 April 1875 I believe they are the same person. Annie Maria Smith nee Fraser was my grand mother. It appears he deserted her shortly after my father was born in 1905.
William did indeed join the Marquis of Tallibardine’s Scottish Horses. He signed on as Trooper on 15th February 1901 and departed Australia on March 15 1901 aboard the S.S.Orient. Trooper WE Harper 31632 CC/OFS/T/ 01 (Transcribed reads Cape Colony/Orange Free State/ Queens South African Medal with Clasp 1901) This can be confirmed by obtaining a copy of The Southern Cross Scots by John.E.Price a record of the Boar War.
William Ernest Harper who sometimes appears to have bent the truth, signed on as an engineer. Volunteers had to be of Scottish descent (William was Irish), Single (he was married) be a good horseman, a good shot with a rifle and under 13 stone (83Kg).
Nothing much is known about William, judging by what Annie Marie stated in the Gisborne court he deserted her just after Ira Charles Norman was born and went to live in Tasmania. It appears that a riddle has been solved I am of the opinion that your grand father and my father are half brothers. Have you any photographs of Wills as both Annie and he were deceased prior to my birth. Dad never spoke of him or any other family for that matter. It is a mystery that is slowly unraveling.
Maurie
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Garry, William Harper Wilfred or Wills as he seems to be also known as was born 14 April 1875 I believe they are the same person. Annie Maria Smith nee Fraser was my grand mother. It appears he deserted her shortly after my father was born in 1905.
William did indeed join the Marquis of Tallibardine’s Scottish Horses. He signed on as Trooper on 15th February 1901 and departed Australia on March 15 1901 aboard the S.S.Orient. Trooper WE Harper 31632 CC/OFS/T/ 01 (Transcribed reads Cape Colony/Orange Free State/ Queens South African Medal with Clasp 1901) This can be confirmed by obtaining a copy of The Southern Cross Scots by John.E.Price a record of the Boar War.
William Ernest Harper who sometimes appears to have bent the truth, signed on as an engineer. Volunteers had to be of Scottish descent (William was Irish), Single (he was married) be a good horseman, a good shot with a rifle and under 13 stone (83Kg).
Nothing much is known about William, judging by what Annie Marie stated in the Gisborne court he deserted her just after Ira Charles Norman was born and went to live in Tasmania. It appears that a riddle has been solved I am of the opinion that your grand father and my father are half brothers. Have you any photographs of Wills as both Annie and he were deceased prior to my birth. Dad never spoke of him or any other family for that matter. It is a mystery that is slowly unraveling.
Maurie
Hi Maurie and thanks for your info. I have to admit that when I saw there was an Ira and a George that were the children of William and Annie Maria I was a little bit shocked. And the dates certainly seem to fit ... that he left Annie around 1905/1906 and then had his first child with Rachel in 1912.
I do have a photograph of 'Wilfred Eric' that was sent to me by my uncle. I'll attach it. Perhaps someone can identify the uniform he is wearing.
Gary
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Hooray..... ;) I was starting to think that Gary would never accept that William James/Ernest and Wilfred Eric were the one and same. Now do you also accept that Mabel Jean and Rachel May are also the one and same person? I wonder if she had to provide a birth certificate for an aged pension c1950 hence the correction to the electoral roll.
I very much doubt William/Wilfred was the father of Alan Verdun/Vincent. Nothing to do with an error at registration....it was cross referenced to be registered under the name of HARTSHORN ie the birth is registered twice both as HARPER and HARTSHORN.
I will mention here that it not usual practice for fellow forum members to purchase certs to help the OP along the way....and a thank you would have been nice :)
Gary have you printed this thread and given it to your uncle?
I do hope you have one of the many family tree software programmes that are available ;)
Cheers ;D
Cando
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Hi Cando,
Hooray..... ;) I was starting to think that Gary would never accept that William James/Ernest and Wilfred Eric were the one and same. Now do you also accept that Mabel Jean and Rachel May are also the one and same person? I wonder if she had to provide a birth certificate for an aged pension c1950 hence the correction to the electoral roll.
I very much doubt William/Wilfred was the father of Alan Verdun/Vincent. Nothing to do with an error at registration....it was cross referenced to be registered under the name of HARTSHORN ie the birth is registered twice both as HARPER and HARTSHORN.
I will mention here that it not usual practice for fellow forum members to purchase certs to help the OP along the way....and a thank you would have been nice :)
Gary have you printed this thread and given it to your uncle?
I do hope you have one of the many family tree software programmes that are available ;)
Cheers ;D
Cando
First off, a million thank you's. I really can't thank you enough for the time, effort and money (!) you've put in to gather and present all of the records and information you've provided. I apologise for not saying that earlier, because I was certainly thinking it.
I spoke with my uncle this afternoon and directed him to this discussion. He said that whilst he knew Rachel May as Grandma Harper, her friends all knew her as 'Jean'. He knows much more about her than me of course, and was surprised that she was in the electoral role at 200 Victoria Street (the orphanage) as Mabel Jean. He agrees that it is indeed Grandma Harper and that she does appear to have had a name change.
We are going to do some more research - I have an aunt that I've not spoken with yet who lived with my grandmother for some years before my Nan died and she still lives in Nan's house.
I also had a talk to Maurie and he has a whole bunch of information that he is going to send me.
I'm 99% convinced :) so I'm going to pull together all the information we have, build a timeline, find out whatever else I can, talk to my uncle some more (and he's going to talk to his brother and sister) and then build the rest of the tree.
I've looked at some family tree software but really don't know which one is best.
Gary
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Good result then.....I would suggest that you validate any information Gary. As you have already noticed, some family stories are not always accurate.
I have used a couple of family history programmes starting with PAF which you can download from familysearch.org and then tried Legacy for a while and have ended up with Family Tree Maker although I am not keen on the latest version. I enter any information directly to the programme and that includes scans of certificates, photos, electoral rolls listings and newspaper snippets. I simply snip the information from scans and paste into the Scrapbook for each person. Keeps everything together and does away with lots of paper and files etc....and back up to two external hard drives.
Good luck :)
Cheers
Cando
Cando