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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: scottish quine on Friday 03 February 12 19:56 GMT (UK)
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Hello. I'm trying to find the origins of a Margaret Todd. To start at the end and work backwards. She appears on 1881 English census in Kidsgrove Staffordshire married to Joseph Hilditch. Record says she was born Castle Douglas Scotland (1891 census says New Galloway) Her birth year was around 1832 or1833 She had married Hilditch in 1879, in Kidsgrove giving an alternative name of Yates. Presume this means she had been married before, but I haven't been able to find that person. Anyone out there who might have information I would be pleased to hear. Jeanette
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Hi
Joseph Hilditch's first wife was Hannah YATES? Married 1853, reg. Congleton?
How do you know that Margaret's was maiden name TODD, not YATES (aside from FreeBMD indexing her name as YATES where the expected convention is that she married using her current legal surname?)
Also, the 2 youingest children in 1881 , Samuel & Frederick who were both born before the marriage - are they both Joseph's? Frederick was born abt 1875. Samuel abt 1868 - but he is not on the 1871 Census with Joseph & his other children?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi
Just to say that Castle Douglas was in the parish of Kelton and New Galloway was in the parish of Kells, both Kirkcudbrightshire but no matches for a Todd or a Yates on a first trawl through.
gnu
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Think I've found a possible on 27 June 1829, Kells - Margaret Tod. Parents - William Tod and Jean Hume (IGI)
I extended the range by a couple of years!
gnu
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Full details are
27 June 1829 William Tod, saddler in New Galloway and his wife Jean Hume had a daughter born 6th and baptized by Mr Maitland. named Margaret.
Also the baptism of a daughter Helen on 21 April 1821, Kells
gnu
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That looks good Gnu....
And there is an 1851 Census:
King Street, Kelton, Kirkcudbright
Head: William TODD 29, Letter Carrier, b New Galloway
Sister: Margaret TODD 20, Servant, b New Galloway
Son: David TODD 6, b Kelton
Cheers
AMBLY
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Nothing showing for deaths ( or marriages) of the parents, William and Jean so far. I'll see if I can find them in the Kells/Kelton MIs - one of my main lines was from that area so I have various bits and pieces!
gnu
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Interesting - one could be father, William
Baptisms~
Kells 13 March 1803 William s/o David Todd and Martha Ferguson
Kelton 19 Oct 1792 William s/o William Todd and Margaret Black
gnu
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A tree on A*******
David Shaw Todd b 1825/1827 Kels, New Galloway.
Parents William TODD & Jean HUME (no source noted). He married a Mary CALVERT om 3 Jun 1851 (on IGI) (after the Census) at New Abbey Kirkudbright and was in Garston Lancashire by 1861, married with issue and died there 1910. Children's records (Census) indicate they shifted to Rainford, Prescot Lancashire between 1853 and 1855.
In 1851, In New Abbey KKD:
David Tod, 24 Servant b Balmaghie, kirkcudbright.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/Balmaghie/index.html
Castle Douglas, in the parish of Kelton, is the nearest market-town, and is situated at the distance of about six miles from the centre of Balmaghie
Cheers
AMBLY
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No Tod(d)s in the MIs.
I had to do some mountaineering to get to them :-X
gnu
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I have quite a few photos of the area as I've visited quite often , tracing ancestors.
A possible for Margaret in 1841 but not much to go on!
Cotton Street, Kelton
James Hutchison, 14
Samuel, 12
Mary Carson, 20, FS
Isabella, 3
Margret Todd, 12
All b. Kirkcudbrightshire
gnu
PS - also a Todd family in Balmaclellan - other (east) side of the Ken from Kells - but they are born outwith Kirkcudbrightshire
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Another tree on A****
has Helen Hume TOD b 1821 to WIlliam TODD & Jean HUME.
It lists her pob as Kins of Orwell, KKD. However, in the 1851/1861 Census for Helen with her husband David DRYLIE (married 1845) her pob is consistently, Orwell, Kinross. She died 1867 Dunfermline Fife. In 1851 Census her mother Janet TOD is with her, listed as age 59 b Orwell, Kinross.
Apparently though, Helen Hume DRYLIE nee TOD's death record lists her parents as William TOD & Janet ADIE, not Jant HUME. Rootschatter Beansgram was delving into the mysteries of this, last year:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529626.0.html
Cheers
AMBLY
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That would be the Helen that I referred to earlier:
Also the baptism of a daughter Helen on 21 April 1821, Kells
I tend to treat those Ancestry trees with a big pinch or salt - some parts are true but some are pie in the sky and they all need checking.
I'll see if I can find anything that makes sense
Kins of Orwell, Kinross - it looks as if they've mixed up two people :-X :-X :-X ::)
gnu
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There was a Todd family in Orwell, Kinross - William Tod and Janet Adie. No Helen recorded but an Andrew, Margaret and William.
The Tree owner has obviously mixed her up with the Kells, Kirkcudbrightshire Helen. Also, it doesn't look as if there is much understanding of the geography of Scotland on their part. They're on the opposite sides of the country.
gnu
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It does look like that , gnu - a mix-up of two different people, I agree:-)
Another topic 2008 pondering the HUME / ADIE thing - one idea there too was that perhaps the "Hume" middle name of that Helen, Mrs Drylie was the thing causing an assumption that was incorrect!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529626.0.html
I think the marriage cert between Margaret TODD & Joseph HILDITCH is a must have, Jeanette :)
Cheers
AMBLY
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The Adie/Tod(d) is a red herring. Margaret Todd was born in New Galloway,parish of Kells, Kirkcudbrightshire. This was where my mother's family originated. It is a totally different place from Orwell, Kinross. We have her baptism there in Kells, listing her parents as William Tod, saddler and Jean Hume.
Really, I think a bit of map reading might not go amiss. Too many people not understanding where the various counties are.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
gnu
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Hi Jeanette
Gnu is concerned I may have mislead or confused you - so let me just clarify. I totally agree with Gnu, that the TOD/ADIE couple in Kinross - are not your TOD/HUME family of Kirkcudbright.
There are 'researchers' out there coming to that erroneous conclusion (by matching circimstantial dates & names without regard to location) and posting them online in trees, but in no way am I saying or inferring, said tree must be correct! Sometimes they are correct, sometimes partially and more often just completley wrong! All need to be proved one way or the other, in any case.
A simple look at Census records at least shows it and Gnu, with terrific & well researched local knowledge has access to records that can only dismiss the claims in those trees.
Beansgram may have found more on your family, while researching her own - you can only ask.
The 1851 Census of that Margaret TOD in Kelton with her brother,
The David Shaw TODD in Garston, Lancs
The marriage to Joseph HILDITCH ....
....remain as good leads to follow through on now. What would be nice is to see her who her father is on the marriage - or have a witness on it that proves useful ;D
And of course, (Reply#1) I remain intrigued that Joseph's first wife seems to have been YATES, the same surname as Margaret used when she married him.
Cheers
AMBLY
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I think the Todd family must have all moved to England at some point as I don't see them with much confidence after 1851- so I've just been doing some scavenging for Margaret. Note that all are possibles only ~
A possible on the 1861 in Shropshire - household of a Richard Wall, farmer.
RG9/1885/97/27
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Margaret Todd, serv, unm, 29, house servant, b. Scotland
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A possible marriage:
Prescot - Dec q, 1869 Margaret Todd and Thomas Yates on same page
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Also
1871
43 Claughton ? Street, St Helens, Prescot RD
RG10/3863/164/13
Thos Yates, 43, blacksmith , b. Kirby. Lancs
Margaret, wife, 38, b. N.K. Scotland
There's something in front of the N,K, but I can't make it out
gnu
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Ambly
You're going to love this - have a look:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNQK-X1B
Good old new familysearch
:D
gnu
(I think she might have been economical with her age)
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Also, I've just found a Baptism for a David Shaw Todd in Kells on 18 Dec 1825.
Parents - William Todd and Jean Hume
gnu
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And this ~
Kells, 29 Aug 1818 William Todd, saddler in New Galloway and his wife ~~~~ Hume , had a child baptised by Mr Gillespie, named William
It's indexed on SP as Tode but the record is written as Todd
(Mr Gillespie baptised my 2 x grandmother !)
:)
gnu
Added - Link to Kirkcudbrightshire parish map:
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-wigtown.htm
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We do love it, Gnu ;D Good on the new family search & you !
So, do you think the 1851 Census in Kelton could be Jeanette's Margaret' and her brother William with his age a wee bit out at 29? (Or maybe there were two William's and the 1818 died young).
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly
Just a few more observations:
From your reply #8
David Shaw TODD...............Children's records (Census) indicate they shifted to Rainford, Prescot Lancashire between 1853 and 1855.
Is it just a coincidence that a Margaret Todd marries Thomas Yates in Prescot in 1869 or had the family all moved to that area of Lancashire? There were regular boats from Kirkcudbright to Liverpool/Birkenhead at that time* (my family used them) and, as far as I recall, many KKD families can be found in that area. *and trains later in the period.
The family seem to underestimate their ages -
William -b. 1818 but on 1851 census, he's 29
David -b 1825 - on 1851 census, he's 24
Margaret - b 1829 - on 51 and 71 census, she's 20 and 38
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Re the Helen (Hume) Drylie, m.s. Todd - a few more disproofs!
There is no mention of Hume in her name on any of the documents that I've seen and it only appears in the tree that you found. . Also, her father is down as a Damask weaver on her death cert. The William Todd, New Galloway, Kells, was recorded as a saddler on a number of documents. Further, she doesn't give her birth place as Kirkcudbrightshire on any available document.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A final proof that we've got the correct family, and that Jeanette's Margaret is the daughter of William Todd, saddler, and Jean Hume of New Galloway, would be if Jeanette could obtain one or other of Margaret's marriage certs to find out what occupation is given for her father.
gnu
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Hello Ambley and Gnu. I can't thank you enough for going to so much trouble on my behalf. I feel sure you have both tracked down the correct person, just to be certain I will get a marriage certificate. To answer your question Ambley, I believe Margaret's maiden name was Todd because, on Staffordshire BMD there is a double entry for her marriage to Hilditch, giving both Yates and Todd as her surname. At the end of the page there is an explanation which says this often means a woman has been marrid before.
Regarding Samuel and Frederick Hilditch on 1881 census, Samueal was Hannah's youngest, born around 1868. She died early 1871. I don't know who Frederick belongs to, Margaret and Joseph didn't marry until 1879, I wonder is he was Margaret's and Hilditch took him as his own?
On Ancestry there is a tree assigned to Hilditch which shows Margaret Todd's father as William which fits with what has been found, there's no other information though. Like you I find so many mistakes in other people's trees. I've had to back track several times, it's a mine field out there.
You noticed Ambley the Yates connection with both Hilditch's wives. I am try to establish if there is a connection with Margaret's first husband and my Yates family. It can't be through my great grandfather Henry as he had only sisters but I think his father had brothers. Would this be a good place to start?
My Yates' also have a connection with Lancashire in that other members of the family moved to Golborne from Staffordshire. Thanks again for all help. Jeanette
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Hi Jeanette
My link to Margaret's marriage to Thomas Yates shows his father as Joseph Yates. Does that link in to the other Yates family?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNQK-X1B
gnu
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Also - a photo of King Street, Castle Douglas where William and Margaret were staying in 1851
gnu
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Hello Gnu. I have found a Joseph Yates born Astbury Cheshire (where my Yates' come from) dob 1803 parents James and Elizabeth. My distant cousin researching with me asked another Rootschat question about James and Elizabeth and it appears they didn't marry until 1807, so he isn't theirs. Haven't found another likely parent yet. I will just have to keep digging. Just out of interest, my grandmother had a brother Angus Yates dob 1878. How he came by his truly Scottish name on the border of Staffordshire and Cheshire puzzled me - until I saw Margarets birthplace. I suspect she had something to do with it. Thanks again for all your help. Jeanette
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Oh Jeanette..
You are so determined to prove your theory on my great grandad Angus's name....Sounds like you may be right...LOL
keep digging..
Love
Lesley x
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Hi chatters A little clarification on the documents listing Hume/Adie on the death cert from sp for Helen Tod Drylie her mother is listed as Janet Adie so we know the Helen married to David Drylie was the daughter of William Todd and Janet Adie. Their son Peter Married Christina Mcpherson at North Parish Dec. 31 1974 the marriage cert lists parents as David Drylie and Helen Drylie nee Todd. The confusion comes from Peters birth records (which apparently were completely butchered in the transcribing by someone who couldnt read) Peter Drylaw Mar, 15 1854 parents David Drylaw and Ellen Todd Hume. Peter is on the census with David and Helen 61-71 and on the 81 with Christina then he immigrated to the Us on the Ship Ethiopia with Christina and 4 of their 7 children. Between census, the marriage cert, the birth cert for Peter and the death cert for Helen, Helen Tod Drylie and Ellen Todd Hume are the same person. The tree on A******* was probably mine and all of these certs have since been added and the information changed. The only problem now is the birthdate for this Helen as she is most definitely not the one born in 1821 To William Tod and Jean Hume. I have been on sp and cannot find any birth for a Helen to William Tod and Janet Adie. So all of that being said if anyone has any suggestions on pinning down this Helen's birth i would much appreciate it Beans