RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: fred21 on Thursday 09 February 12 07:15 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
I am interested in any information on the Wildermoth/Wildermouth family who settled in Ireland from France.
My ancestor was Jean Christopher Wildermouth who it is believed was a French solider who settled in Ireland and married a Anne Keenan in Belfast in 1787 (according to the IGI and yet to be confirmed). He is also believed to have died in 1806 in Belfast (again from the IGI).
He and his wife had a son, J William Wildermoth born 1787 in Kilkenny. He joined the British Army and served in the Napoleonic Wars. (I have his military record which states that he was half French and had been born in Kilkenny.
J, William married a Mary Whelan and had the following children.
Mary born c1825
John William born 1826 in Roscrea, Co Tipperary (he is my ancestor and I have quite a bit of information on him)
James born 1828
William born 1831
Michael born 1834
Daniel born 1837 died in England in 1877
Thomas c1844
Rose c1850.
All the children are believed to have been in Ireland.
I am very interested in finding out more about these children and there parents and grandparents.
If anyone is able to help or to provide where I can start looking I would be very grateful.
I am looked at the Ancestry and have got all the census information etc from them.
Many thanks
-
Do you know what denomination your Wildermoth/Wildermouth ancestors were ?
I dont see any references to the surname in Ireland on parish Baptism/Marriage indexes or on FamilySearch extracted or Index records... maybe the family later used a variation in spelling ?
I see Daniel's 1877 death on the BMD index in Lancashire
Shane
-
It's likely that the family didn't stay in Ireland. The 1861 census lists a Michel Wildermouth (born c1835) in Devonshire. The LDS database also lists a James Wildermuth in New York who could be this same family.
-
Yes the children seemed to have left Ireland at some stage and settled in England.
John born 1826 went to Devon and then New Zealand
Michael born 1834 also went to Devon and like John was a member of the Irish Royal Constabulary
Daniel died in Lancashire in 1877 leaving behind a son William and a daughter Louisa.
Rose born 1850 (the youngest) is showing as living with her widowed mother Mary on 1871 English census.
it looks like nearly all of the children and their mother left Ireland but unknown when.
I am interested in the Irish connection as that is where all the children have stated that they were born though unknown if they were all born in County Tipperaray.
J William seems to have moved around abit as a solider so it is likely that the children were all were in different counties.
Jean Christopher is a mystery who I would love to find out more about. His wife Anne Keenan is also a mystery has Keenan doesn't seem to be a very popular name in Ireland. How a French man ended up in Ireland is fascinating and something that I would like to know more about.
Kilkenny is the only connection I have but I know that the information on the IGI can be wrong so it is possible there are errors in the information.
John Wildermoth born 1826 was a Roman Catholic so I am assuming that the others were also.
Hope this helps
-
Jean Christopher is a mystery who I would love to find out more about. His wife Anne Keenan is also a mystery has Keenan doesn't seem to be a very popular name in Ireland. How a French man ended up in Ireland is fascinating and something that I would like to know more about.
Keenan actually is an Irish name and isn't that uncommon.
Wildermouth, etc. doesn't sound very French- perhaps the family were Germany or Swiss originally. Another possibility is that the family were originally Huguenot- a French ancestor of mine was in the Royal Guard, went to England and then to U.S. but some of the family settled in Ireland.
-
The records of the French military shows a Jean-Henri De Wildermouth, an officer, working his way up through the ranks from a lowly second lieutenant the 1750's all the way up to a Colonel in the 1790's on the outbreak of the revolutionary wars in 1792.
Though he was in the Anjou regiment at the end of his career, he seems to have began his career as an officer in the Royal Suédois Infanterie during the seven years war.
http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Royal_Su%C3%A9dois_Infanterie
This was a French 'foreign' regiment originally formed in 1690 from captured Swedish Merceneries then in Dutch service. All officers had to be Swedish, so this would suggest as an officer Jean-Henri was Swedish born. Certainly Wildermouth/Wildermuth is a Germanic name not French, so that would explain how it came to be linked with France.
I wonder with his strong links to the military and France whether this man might possibly be a relative of your man, perhaps even his father?
-
Just to add to the above on the French civil list of Dec 1831-1832 a Marie Jean Wildermouth (nee von Hügel, 'Baroness') 'widow of a late emigrant colonel' was paid 300 Francs a year, as a pension from the state, so that would appear to be his wife. The Von Hügel's were a distinguished Bavarian family many of whom served as officers in the Austrian military.
-
http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/Records-held-by-the-SHD.html
It may be worth trying to get hold of the full Army records of Jean-Henri De Wildermouth from the link above as it may note his children etc.
There is a partial reference on google books to Marie Jean being bought up in France by her grandfather Baron Von Hügel, a Brigadier in service to the French, and having married Colonel Wildermouth there in France, whilst he was a Major in the Duc de Sang Sang's Strasbourg Regiment. Since we know she was still there in old age on a pension, France clearly was their home, even if neither her or her husband were originally born there, and presumably where any children to the couple were born and raised, so they still seem fairly good candidates to be parents for your Jean Christopher.
-
I am so wrapped with everyone's replies.
Yes Wildermoth/Wildermouth does sound German and we always wondered if there was a connection. There are several Wildermuth's in Germany and the USA but as far as we know our Wildermoth/Wildermouths never spelt their name this way.
thanks so much for the information of Jean Henri and his wife. I think there is a strong possibly that these could be Jean Christopher's parents.
The name Jean appears in the family a few times, Jean Henri, Jean Christopher, J. William (first name was we think Jean) and so on. There is also the strong tradition of military service. Jean Henri, Jean Christopher, J (Jean) William all did long time service in the army and J. William's son John was a policeman (as was brother) and served in the Crimean War and one of his descendents died at Gallipoli.
There was a family rumour (which we know is never reliable) came from a town called Neufchatel. There are several towns in France and Switzerland with this name so have know idea which one or if this is true.
It is very exciting to think that there may be a Swedish and Austrian connection. The family seem to have been well travelled! (i.e. Sweden, Austria, France, Ireland, England, New Zealand)
I always thought we might of have been able to find out more through the wives but have virtually no information of these women either.
Jean Christopher married Anne Keenan
J. (Jean) William married Mary Whelan (have no other information on her)
John Wildermoth married Sarah Byrne (again have no information on her)
All I know is a rough age and that they were all born in Ireland.
I will try to follow up on the military record for Jean Henri and see if there is more information there as this does seem like a strong led.
Looking at the von Hugel connection I see that they were strongly Roman Catholic something that the Wildermoth's were also so again Jean Henri and his wife Marie Von Hugel are looking like good contenders.
There are several Wildermoths in New Zealand so the family has done well here. There does not look like there are any left in Ireland or England so perhaps this line died out? (how sad)
Thank you all so far for the information provided - it has given me a few leds to try to follow. I feel that I will be improving my French! to try and understand more. Here's hoping I can get Jean Henri's military record (cross fingers!)
-
Hi Fred
I managed to find a full copy of the book , which only showed partially on google books, on a site called archive.org, which was 'Les Protestants d'autrefois:sur mer et outre mer' by Henry Luhr originally published in 1907. This roughly translates as "The Protestants of Past Times, On and Over Seas."
This seems to be a work of research into 'forgotten' Protestant heroes of France, both natives and foreign born, and there is a 4 page section on Maria Jean Von Hügel's father (which seems to suggest their branch of the family at least were Protestants). Her father is never named in full but was born circa 1737 in the parish of St Guilliame, Strasbourg, France, (Where his father Brigadier Von Hügel was based) and joined the army as an officer at 16. He was sent to India and distinguished himself in 1760 in the rank of captain at the seige of Madras, and went on to command his own regiment of French Hussars in India which fought alongside Hyder Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder_Ali) and The Dutch East india Company against the British East India Company in the two Mysore Wars.
Maria Jean was actually born out in India, in Tranquebar, in 1767, and sent back to Strasbourg to be bought up by her grandparents, the Brigadier Von Hügel and his wife. She was married to Jean Henri Wildermouth in May 1784, when he was based in Strasbourg as a Major in The Duc de Sang Sang's Strasbourg regiment. The only extra information given on him (Wildermouth) is he was a holder of the French Military Cross, and that he was the primary source of information the author had on the life of Marie Jean's father Captain Von Hügel. Apparantly the Captian had died in India some time before 1788, and at that time back in France the ageing Brigadier Von Hügel was concerned for his grandaughter's future well being and therefore desired his own military pension of 150 Francs a year to transfer to her on his death (he was 77 at the time). Wildermouth wrote on his wife's behalf to the Minister of War to add weight to the Brigadier's plea with the account of her father's sterling service on behalf of the French Crown in India, and his subsequent ill treatment by the Dutch East India Company, but the outbreak of the French revolution the following year seems to have meant his plea went without any official reply. (Though of course we do know by 1831-3 she was on a state pension double that of her late grandfather so all seems to have worked out well in the end).
Of course since Marie outlived her husband, and from his army records he was likely considerably older than her, around 40-45 at the time of their marriage, and she 17, it is unlikely if Jean Henri is your man's father, she was the mother. I'm thinking perhaps she was a second marriage to the father and stepmother to any existing children?
Also I assume you have already downloaded the existant baptisms for the family at IFHF website? www.rootsireland.ie/
They have the following baptisms showing:
Church Baptism Wildermoth James 1828 Roscrea Parish (Roman Catholic) Co. Tipperary (fathers first name William)
Church Baptism Wildermothy Michael 1834 Roscrea Parish (Roman Catholic) Co. Tipperary (fathers first name William)
Church Baptism Wildermouth Daniel 1837 Roscrea Parish (Roman Catholic) Co. Tipperary (fathers first name William)
Full details cost 5 Euros to view if you havn't already.
There is also this:
Church Baptism Wildermuth Elizabeth 1804 Parish of Birr Church of Ireland (Protestant Anglican) Co. Offaly (fathers first name John)
It is a Protestant baptism, but not far from Roscrea, about 15miles/20km North. Cant' find the 1787 Belfast marriage on the site, but presumably that would have been Protestant too, as I do not believe Catholic marriages were legal in Ireland until the emancipation acts of the 1820's (though I stand to be corrected there)
Anyway certainly a fascinating family here, and pleased to have been able to help in some way. Do keep us updated with any progress with Jean Henri's military records. I would be interested to know if my hunch is right in linking these families. Certainly the French sources nearly always spell it 'Wildermouth', which as you say was far less common form on the continent than Wildermuth, and in itself seems to add some weight to the theory the two families in France and Ireland are linked.
Regards
Richard
-
Just to add.
In regards the link to Neuchâtel, that is interesting. Neuchâtel (in modern Switzderland) was a very important centre of early Protestantism, especially Calvisnism, in Europe. When searching for Jean Henri yesterday I did find a much earlier reference to the family name linked to that city a good 200-250 years prior to the time frame we have been looking at in the early 16th century.
A Jacob Wildermuth :
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4KQRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA320&dq=%22jacob+wildermuth%22&hl=en&ei=-hE0T7_uGqnK0QXeq8iYAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22jacob%20wildermuth%22&f=false
Seems to have been quite an important figure. This does of course seem to be slightly at odds with the Swedish origin for Jean Henri, but as you say they got about a bit!
-
Thanks so much richarde1979
all the info you have given as just been great and has given me alot to to look into.
I have contacted the French Defense Department from the link you gave so hopefully I will hear back from them about Jean Henri's military record.
I found a paragraph in a German book about a Farel Wildermouth in 1531. Sounds like Farel was some kind of title, maybe religious as the book said he was a priest. I think he could be Jacob Wildermuth that you mention or if not maybe another distant relative.
I will also still try some resources in Ireland to see if I can found out anything more about Jean Christopher and his son J William, since one married and died there and the other was born there, there must be some information about them somewhere. I might try looking into the Kilkenny led as this is where J. William stated that he was born on his military enlistment papers.
thanks so much once again.
Hopefully by putting this on this forum I can get some more leads and maybe help someone else.
-
Hi, I have been reading the posts here on the ancestry of the Jean Christopher Wildermouth. I am one of the New Zealand ancestors with John William Wildermoth being my Great-Grandfather. My sisters and I would be very grateful for any information on the family tree you are able to share as we have limited information.
-
Are you connected to this William listed in Griffiths Valuation Record Information farming over 2 acres He is the only named Wildermoth or Wildermouth listed in this vast but incomplete record
Tenant
Family Name 1 WILDERMOTH
Forename 1 WILLIAM
Landlord
Family Name 2 PALMER
Forename 2 HUMPHRY
Location
County QUEEN'S
Barony CLARMALLAGH
Union DONAGHMORE
Parish AGHABOE
Townland GARRYDUFF
Place Name GARRYDUFF
Place Type TOWNLAND
Publication Details
Position on Page 8
Printing Date 1850
Act 9&10
Sheet Number 28
Map Reference 2a
That last reference should show where the homestead was and it boundaries. This William has his Land house etc valued at #£3 per annum a lot more than others who were value d at 5 shillings the source is www.askaboutireland.com then open the GRIFFITH VALUATION SECTION. Updates to the property change of ownership should exist in NI they are at the PRONI, suggesting in Dublin they will be at National Archives of Ireland Dublin.
-
Genes Reunited have many individuals listed. You need to join to ask the tree holder for permission to look at their listing, this will show you how many interested parties there are, including a Richard!
Daniel Wildermoth 1875 Washdyke, Ireland ... No Fiona [Washdyke NZ ?]
Daniel Wildermoth 1875 Washdyke, Ireland ... No Stephanie
Margaret Wildermoth 1841 Laois ... No Stuart
Margaret Wildermoth 1841 Laois ... No Teresa
Margaret Wildermoth 1841 Laois ... No Gordon
Margaret Wildermoth 1841 Ire ... No Lance
Margaret Wildermoth 1841 , Laois, , Ireland, ... No Chris
Daniel Wildermoth 1837 Roscrea, Ireland ... No Penny
Daniel Wildermoth 1837 Ireland ... No Fiona
Daniel Wildermoth 1837 Ireland ... No Elsa
Daniel Wildermoth 1837 Ireland ... No Joanne
Daniel Wildermoth 1837 ... No Lance
Daniel Wildermoth 1837 ... No Chris
Margaret Wildermoth 1830 ... No Joanne
James Wildermoth 1828 Roscrea, Ireland ... No Penny
James Wildermoth 1828 Rosecrea?, Ireland ... No Fiona
James Wildermoth 1828 Roscrea And Kyle, Ir... No Stephanie
James Wildermoth 1828 Ireland ... No Elsa
James Wildermoth 1828 Roscrea And Kyle, Ir... No Joanne
James Wildermoth 1828 Roscrea And Kyle, Ti... No Lance
James Wildermoth 1828 Kyle, Laois, Ireland... No Chris
John Wildermoth 1826 Ireland ... No Patricia
John Wildermoth 1826 Roscrea, County Tipp... No Penny
John Wildermoth 1826 Roscrea, Tipperary, ... No Fiona
John Wildermoth 1826 Rosecrea, Ireland ... No Stephanie
John Wildermoth 1826 Rosecrea, Tipperary,... No Elsa
John Wildermoth 1826 Rosecrea, Ireland ... No Joanne
John Wildermoth 1826 Roscrea Ireland ... No Joanne
John Wildermoth 1826 In Or Near Roscrea, ... No Lance
John Wildermoth 1826 Rosecrea,,,,, ... No Peter
John Wildermoth 1826 Roscrea, Tipperary, ... No Chris
John Wildermoth 1826 Ireland ... No Peter
John Wildermoth 1826 Rosecrea,Ireland. ... No Steven
John Wildermoth 1826 Tipperary, Ireland ... No Sean
Mary Wildermoth 1825 Ireland ... No Elsa
Mary Wildermoth 1825 Ireland ... No Joanne
Mary Wildermoth 1825 Ire ... No Lance
Mary Wildermoth 1825 Ireland ... No Chris
John Wildermoth 1787 Ireland ... No Patricia
John Wildermoth 1787 Tipperary Ireland ... No Stephanie
Jean Wildermoth 1787 Kilkenny, Ireland ... No Chris
J Wildermoth 1787 Dunkirk ... No Richard
J Wildermoth 1787 Kilkenny, Ireland ... No Elsa
j Wildermoth 1787 Ireland Kilkenny ... No James
J Wildermoth 1787 Kilkenny, Ire ... No Lance
J. Wildermoth 1787 Rosecrea, Tipperary ... No Fiona
J. William Wildermoth 1787 Kilkenny, Ireland ... No Penny
-
John Wildermoth 1826 was my great grandfather. He and his wife, Sarah, are buried at Timaru, New Zealand. He was a policeman.
My grandfather was Michael Joseph Wildermoth, one of John's sons. My mother was Beryl Ellen Mary Wildermoth, one of Michael's daughters.
My mother always said that Wildermoth was a German name, but none of us believed it. Perhaps it was.
I have become interested in the family since it is 100 years since John Layton Wildermoth was killed in the war on Gallipoli. John was the son of Michael, the brother of Beryl and therefore, my uncle. My daughter and I are going to Gallipoli in October to acknowledge what he did for us.
-
Petty Sessions
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fuf/
-
Thanks for all the replies. Yes I am on GenesReunited and have contacted everyone who is related to this family.
And yes that William in the Griffiths is the Wiliam who was a soldier.
I still haven't managed to get any way further with J. William and his parents Jean Christopher Wildermoth and Anne Keenan.
So far for certain I have a copy of J Wiliam's military papers which state that he was born in or around the parish of Kilkenny in 1787 and that he enlisted in the 62 Regiment of the Foot when he was 10 years old in Poole, Dorsetshire.
Most of the information about Jean Christopher is at the moment only vague (from family stories, Mormon IG etc.).
I do know that he had another child, a daughter Elizabeth who was born in 1804 in the Parish of Birr, County Offaly, Ireland (under the last name of Wildermuth). Jean Christopher's name is down as John which would be the anglicised version of his name so he may be in records somewhere as John Wildermoth. I am hoping that I can find out what regiments were in Kilkenny in 1787 and in Birr in 1804 and then go through them to see if I can find what regiment he was in as it seems he may have been a soldier.
Any further ideas of how I can trace this line of this family would be great appreciated as it's a brick wall that none of us have been able to break through
-
Just to update everyone who may be interested and is following this or anyone who may be able to provide any further information.
The brick wall for this is still standing but I have found a few more discoveries which certainly give us something to think about.
One
I contacted the Kilkenny records office awhile ago but never heard back from them. So that so far is a dead end.
Two
Going through all the English and Irish records that I have access to so far I have found a few other Wildermoths who might tie into this family.
a) A Sarah WILDERMOTH married William Hampson 6 Jan 1780 in Prestwich, St Mary, Lancashire. (perhaps a sister of Jean Christopher? - especially his children later on moved to Lancashire)
b) An Anne WILDERMOTH married George Waite 19 Feb 1818 in Darton, Yorkshire. Witnesses were John WILDERMOTH and Gertrude WILDERMOTH (possible daughter?)
c) A Samuel WILDERMOTH appears on the census and gives his birthdate as 1826 in Lancashire
Three
Anne Keenan wife of Jean Christopher. Possible birth 20 Dec 1768 Rathdowney, Ossory, Laois, Ireland. Parents stated as being Jas and Ann.
Four
Children of J William and Mary Whelan...
Mary b 1825 Ireland died Jan 1887 Lancashire - in her will she stated that she was a widow and had a son Thomas. Possibly this is the Thomas WILDERMOTH on the cenus who states he was born c1853 Ireland.
James bpt 19 Sep 1828 Roscrea, Co Tipperary.
Immigrated to the United States sometime after 1870 (going by the census returns in the UK)
He married Mary Nolan and had 4 children (all born in the USA)
Died 31 Jan 1895 New York.
William bpt 27 May 1831 Roscrea, Co Tipperary
Immigrated to the United States
Married Catherine Costello in 1868 in Orange County, New York. They had 3 children
Died 18 Jun 1906 Montgomery, Orange County, New York
Michael bpt 24 Jun 1834 Roscrea, Co Tipperary
Married Maria Martin 1856 in Ireland and had 2 children.
Died c1871 in Devon, England
Daniel bpt 24 Jan 1837 Roscrea, Co Tipperary
Married twice. Had 2 children, one lived in Wales the other died in a Lunatic Asylum
Died 25 Aug 1877 Prestwich, Lancashire
Margaret 29 Nov 1839 Garryduff, Laois
Married Anthony Mortimer in 1860 in Ireland
Died 1915 in Salford, Lancashire
Thomas c1844
no definite trace of him but there is a Thomas in the census born c1853 in Ireland (could this be this Thomas or is he the son of Mary the daughter). A Thomas also married in 1885 in Salford, Lancashire to Elizabeth Davies
No death has been found in any of the records.
Were there 2 Thomas Wildermoths? One a son of J William and Mary or did they have a grandson Thomas born to their daughter Mary?
Rose born c1850 Ireland
Married Michael Tressy 1878 Dewsbury, Yorkshire
No death has been found for her.
Looking at all of this it seems possible that some members of the family may have changed or altered their last name which is why it has been hard to find them. Certainly on the census they appear under Wildermoth/Wildermuth/Wildermott/Wildsmith. So who knows how else the last name may appear.
Slowly though I am chipping away at this.
Five
Jean Christopher
at this stage we cannot say for certain if he is the son of Jean Henri De Wildermouth. Certainly though there does look like there may be a connection between the 2, either as father and son (when Jean Henri may of been married before he married Marie Von Hugel.) or perhaps as Uncle and nephew. Something we need to hold as a query at the moment.
Six
There are several Sarah Byrne's bpt in Wicklow so finding one that is ours may prove to be almost impossible at this stage.
And that is that. :)
-
I know it has been a few years since anyone posted on this thread, but I just found it.
I am a descendant of William who emigrated to Montgomery, NY. I have information on him if anyone one wants it. Kinda unfortunate that the name "died off" since the males all had daughters or their sons didn't marry or had daughters themselves.
William bpt 27 May 1831 Roscrea, Co Tipperary
Immigrated to the United States
Married Catherine Costello in 1868 in Orange County, New York. They had 3 children
Died 18 Jun 1906 Montgomery, Orange County, New York