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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: megangrace on Thursday 09 February 12 12:47 GMT (UK)
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trying to find amos holding born 1818 in keysoe bedfordshire and his brother
wolstan holding born 1815
their father was robert holding born 1789 at st andrew holbourn london mother un known.
thank you.
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I can see from his marriage that Amos' father was Robert, but how have you established that he was the Robert born in the workhouse in Holborn?
Keysoe baptisms have been extracted onto the BVRi but there's no Amos or Wolstan Holding
David
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amos was born in keysoe bedfordshire as i have stated not in the workhouse in london..
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how have you established that he was the Robert born in the workhouse in Holborn?
I can see from censuses that Amos says he was born in Keysoe, but I was asking about his father Robert who you say was was born in Holbourn by which I assume you mean Holborn
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Hi, I have the Keysoe PR up to 1812 & no Holding name is listed, the nearest is Holden but that's way before your timeframe. regards John
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And post 1812 is on the BVRI, but again no Holdings
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i want to thank the people who answered my request for holdings and for pointing out i had spelt one of the place names wrongly.
on the 1861 census amos has put down the following
amos holding born keysoe beds
age 44. reg district uppingham
cival parish harringsworth.
that is where i got the keysoe from for his birth.
as that is all i have to go on.
amos was a gamekeeper and moved around a lot.
but thank you again.
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Hi
Have you found Amos on other censuses - I can only see him in 61 and 91 where he also gives his birthplace as Keysoe. He may not have been baptised, be non-conformist or as the family moved around could have been baptised somewhere else. Have you found any of his siblings?
Like David I wonder what information has led you to his father being the Robert born in Holborn? in fact how do you know his father is a Robert? - doesn't mean we think he isn't just it always worth having another pair of eyes looking at evidence :)
Jan ;)
I've asked the moderator to combine your two threads as it will keep all the info together and save duplication
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Amos has Keysoe as his place of birth on 1871, 1861 and 1851 censuses!
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Amos has Keysoe as his place of birth on 1871, 1861 and 1851 censuses!
Yes I can see him now although he definitely wasn't there a while ago ??? :D
Can you see him in 81?
Jan ;)
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i cannot find him on the 81 census but he died 1892 in middlesex.
a relation in australia told me his father was robert thats all i have to go on.
thank you
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There are Holdings in Keysoe in 1841.
1841 Census: Keysoe, Bedfordshire
Piece: HO107/7/5 Folio: 4 Page: 3
Dwelling: Brook End
Frances HOLDING 45 F Bedfordshire
Occ: Farmer
Louisa HOLDING 15 F Bedfordshire
Alfred CUNNINGTON 30 M Bedfordshire
Occ: Ag lab
Eliza CUNNINGTON 20 F Bedfordshire
Honnor CUNNINGTON 3m F Bedfordshire
Louisa marries before 1851, her father is given as Robert Holding. Eliza has already married, again her father is given as Robert Holding.
Frances marries William Wise in 1850, her father is given as Frances Beebey. The IGI shows the marriage of a Frances Beebe to Samuel (not, alas, Robert) Holding in 1816.
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On the Hunts board Margaret gave you the information that his father was Robert, taken from his marriage. But to assume that he is the Robert born in the workhouse in Holborn is more than I can follow at this stage.
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From http://vcp.e2bn.org/prisoners/4246-1-robert-holding.html
Lent Assizes 1823
Robert Holding, age 26
Date of Offence: 15th February 1823
Offence: Receiving Stolen Property
Sentence: 14 Years Transportation
Residence town: Keysoe, Bedfordshire
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Louisa marries before 1851, her father is given as Robert Holding. Eliza has already married, again her father is given as Robert Holding.
I have a note that I took from PR's ages ago
Robert Holding died 31st March 1865 Union Workhouse, Bedford buried at Keysoe 3rd April 1865 age 75. I had presumed he was Louisa's father. :-\
Rosie
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thank you once again.
i have spoken to my cousin and she has told me that she got the robert holding in the workhouse is from another cousin who was certain he is the correct person. he has a family tree on ancestry where he is owner johnwhitehead60. i cannot get in touch as he is fighting cancer.
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http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/holding/robert/111960 shows Robert was transported on 29 July 1823 to van Dieman's Land. Did he come back after his 14 years were up?
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The JohnWhitehead60 tree merely gives a birth for Robert Holding of 1790, with no place. Wisely as there's no link that I can see at this stage to Holborn Workhouse
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A record from 1841 lists Robert who arrived on the Asia ... free by servitude.
Tazzie
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1841 Census: Keysoe, Bedfordshire
Piece: HO107/7/5 Folio: 4 Page: 3
Dwelling: Brook End
Frances HOLDING 45 F Bedfordshire
Occ: Farmer
Louisa HOLDING 15 F Bedfordshire
Alfred CUNNINGTON 30 M Bedfordshire
Occ: Ag lab
Eliza CUNNINGTON 20 F Bedfordshire
Honnor CUNNINGTON 3m F Bedfordshire
Like Amos, Louisa and Eliza both give their fathers name as Robert, it is highly likely that they are siblings, none of them have been christened in Keysoe. The 1841 census has them living with Frances but she may not be their mother as there is a marriage in Keysoe of a Samuel Holding and Frances Beeby - I wonder if Samuel is their (Amos, Louisa and Eliza's) uncle. How do you know Amos had a brother Wolstan? Who were the witnesses to Amos's wedding?
It looks as though Frances remarries by 1851 to William Wise.
Rosie
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Hi,
Maple Cross Pub, West Hyde, Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire
Year/Publican or other Resident/Relationship to Head and or Occupation/Age/Where Born/Source.
1881/Amos Holding/Publican/64/Keyso, Bedford/Census
1881/Eliza Holding/Wife/66/Bramp, Huntingdo/Census
1881/William Humphrey/Boarder, Farm Labourer, Widow/76/Rickmansworth, Hertford/Census
1882/Amos Holding/../../../Post Office Directory
1886/Amos Holding/../../../Post Office Directory
1890/Amos Holding/../../../Kelly’s Directory of Hertfordshire
1890/Amos Holding/../../../Post Office Directory
1891/Amos Holding/Publican, Widow/74/Beds/Census
1891/Charlotte Linford/Visitor/60/Brampton, Hants/Census
1891/Ellen Ford/Domestic Servant/57/Rickmansworth, Herts/Census
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here is roberts birth taken from the birth christenings book
march 30th 1789
robert son of robert and hannah holding
grayer inn workhouse.
as for wolstan all i have is he was born abt 1815 son of robert and hannah brother to amos.
thank you to everybody for their kind help.
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Hi megangrace
I can't see any records anywhere for Wolstan other than on some Ancestry trees which give no sources - where did you get your information from that he is brother to Amos?
I am still wondering how have you made the leap that the Robert, who is father to Amos and, it seems likely Louisa and Eliza, is the same one baptised St Andrew Holborn abode Grays Inn Workhouse ??? There is a St Andrew Holborn burial of a Robert Holden of Grays Inn Workhouse 29 Oct 1789 if this is Robert senior, no age given but no mention being an infant, then we would need to follow Hannah and little Robert - she may have remarried, although I can't see a likely marriage or a burial.
Jan ;)
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The Ancestry collection "New South Wales, Australia Convict Ship Muster Rolls and Related Records, 1790-1849" shows Robert Holding's "native place" to be Huntingdonshire. I do not believe him to be the same Robert Holding as the one born in a London workhouse.
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A little more here on Robert Holding convict
http://apps.bedfordshire.gov.uk/grd/detail.aspx?id=3048
Jan ;)
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If Robert's age on conviction in 1823 was really 26, and there's no reason why he should have lied, then a 1789 birth in Holborn just looks wrong. His age was also given as 26 when he was received onto the Justitia hulk. But his age on burial in 1865 was 75 as Rosie has told us.
I have serious reservations about the Workhouse baptism being the Robert whose children were born in Keysoe.
It might be beneficial to check the parish chest for Keysoe to see if any payments were made to the family after Robert had been transported
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It might be beneficial to check the parish chest for Keysoe to see if any payments were made to the family after Robert had been transported
I presume these records are at Bedford. ??? I am also interested in this family as Louisa Holding is a 2 x gt aunt. I had wondered if the christian name of Wolstan had a Woolston connection. ::)
Rosie
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If Robert returned to England in 1841 (if I'm reading Tazzies reply correctly) and died in 1865 can anyone find him in 51/61, so far I can't >:( :D
I'm also feeling he is not the Holborn born Robert and his age on conviction would seem to confirm that. His age at death, particularly as he died in an institution, may well be inaccurate.
Jan ;)
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Hi Janan
It says he was free in 1841 but could he have been able to pay his passage home or did he then stay in Tasmania?
It maybe worth more of a check.
Tazzie
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Other snippets so far read ....
1835 transported to Port Arthur
1833 ticket of leave
1832 ticket of leave
1830 ticket of leave
1826 Assd to Mr Abbott.
Tazzie
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Hi Janan
It says he was free in 1841 but could he have been able to pay his passage home or did he then stay in Tasmania?
It maybe worth more of a check.
Tazzie
Thanks Tazzie.
So is the Robert Holding who dies in Bedford in 1865 him ? I've failed to find a likely candidate in 41/51/61 so it would seem possible he was in Australia and maybe managed to earn enough to pay for his passage back sometime after the 1861 census :-\
Have found this christening
Robert Holden baptised 2 Mar 1794 in Alconbury Weston Hunts parents John and Elizabeth
Also
In 51 there are Samuel Holding born Aukenbury Hunts c1795 living in Northants and William Holding born c 1794 Alconbury Weston living in Godmanchester.
Jan ;)
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There is a St Andrew Holborn burial of a Robert Holden of Grays Inn Workhouse 29 Oct 1789
I wonder if this is connected?
Burial at St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey
11th October 1789
Robert Holding age 2 yrs 2
Snowsfields
The christening in Holborn was 30th March 1789, there was no age given which was not uncommon.
Rosie
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It might be beneficial to check the parish chest for Keysoe to see if any payments were made to the family after Robert had been transported
I presume these records are at Bedford. ??? I am also interested in this family as Louisa Holding is a 2 x gt aunt. I had wondered if the christian name of Wolstan had a Woolston connection. ::)
Rosie
Yes, but they've also been filmed by the LDS.
I'd love to know anything about Wolstan, who doesn't seem to appear anywhere other than in this thread
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thank you everybody for all the help. i am most grateful.
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I am johnwhitehead60 and Amos Holding is my 2 x Gt Grandfather. I’ve Managed to obtain quite a full history of Amos’s children, there are many newspaper cuttings about Amos and his family and they are on my ancestry tree. Amos’s son Robert was shipwrecked and his Gt Granddaughter wrote a book about his time being shipwrecked which included snippets about his life taken from his own manuscript and her travels to the Auckland Islands. The book was written in 1997. One such item is that he tried to runaway from home and was caught by his Father, Amos and his uncle Wolston. I can find no record of a Wolston Holding in Bedfordshire or Huntingdonshire. All records for Amos state he was born in Keysoe. When Robert ran away they were living in Brampton, he says before being caught he passed by his Grandmother’s house on his way to Bedford and passed by un noticed. within 3 miles of Bedford he noticed his father Amos following him with his Uncle Wolston. It was but a short time before I was back on my way to Kimbolton. Newspaper cuttings confirm all these areas. Robert also states at the start of the book that he is Robert Holding son of Amos Holding of Keysoe and Fanny Eliza Donnelly of Brampton. He believes he was born at Brampton on 17 March 1840.There are records for Keysoe of an Eliza Holding and a Louisa Holding. Eliza Holding married Alfred Cunnington and Louisa married George WOOLSTON. This would, I believe, make him the Uncle Wolston - his Father’s sister’s husband. Both their marriage certificates state their Father as Robert Holding. There is Robert Holding born in Keysoe abt 1797 who was transported in 1823 for 14 years. All 3 children would have been born/conceived before he left. I have been unable to go back further. There is a death of a Robert Holding in 1865 in Bedford Union Workhouse which is a possible if he returned, not proven.
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Hi Mycroftholmes1
Welcome to rootschat.
Thank you for those snippets. You are right Louisa Holding did marry George Woolston and as you are referring to Roberts grandmother she was likely to be living in Keysoe where George & Louisa lived and where Amos was born. That would make sense of 'Uncle Woolston' -his surname not first name :)
I have Louisa in 1841 Keysoe living with a Frances Holding (age 45). In the same house is Eliza and her husband Alfred Cunnington. Frances married William Wise in 1850
Sorry, I have not done any other research on the Holdings
Rosie
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Frances (nee Beeby) apparently married Samuel Holding. I wonder if he was aka Robert :-\
Frances Holding
20 Dec 1850
Keysoe
Father William Beebey
Spouse William Wise -his father was Samuel Wise
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I had thought of that possibility because the 1841 census shows Louisa Holding living with Frances Holding in Keysoe. And the dates all fit for Louisa. When you look at the land tax registers Frances is listed as the main person after the possible transportation date but there is an early one showing the same proprietor but the head being Samuel Holding. As I said on my tree there are more questions than answers about this. It could be Samuel and Robert are Brothers or he is Samuel Robert or Robbert Samuel Holding. I don’t think there’s a way of finding out. It’s funny there’s nothing in the Parish records but it could be they were not married and therefore the children not baptised, who knows????
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........... There is a death of a Robert Holding in 1865 in Bedford Union Workhouse which is a possible if he returned, not proven.
Robert Holding was buried Keysoe on 3rd April 1865 aged 75, died 31st March, his abode was Bedford Union Workhouse.
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I have examined the land tax records for keysoe from 1797. The first mention of Holden/Holding is 1821 to 25th March 1822 Robert Holden, the next year to 25 March 1823 shows Samuel Holding and then Holdings thereafter until Fanny and Frances Holding show. All for the same property, owner the Rev Dr Hunt. This would tie up with the fact that Robert was transported in February 1823. I think Samuel married to Frances is his brother and that he took over the tenancy. What happened to Robert's wife ??????? but the 1841 census shows Frances and Louisa, Robert's youngest child, possibly living with her uncle and aunt - another question where is Samuel in 1841?