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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Latchfordian on Thursday 16 February 12 16:20 GMT (UK)
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My family history research has recently progressed from civil registration to parish records and I'm not finding it easy! For example, I'm confident that I've found the baptism record of my GG-Grandmother which is as follows :-
Baptism: 22 Aug 1819 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Martha Smith - Daur of Thomas Smith & Anne
Assuming (rightly or wrongly) that her parents' marriage was at the same church a few years prior, I came up with 3 possibilities :-
Marriage: 25 Feb 1813 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Thomas Smith - (X), of This Parish
Ann McCormack - (X), of This Parish
Marriage: 20 Nov 1814 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Thomas Smith - of This Parish
Ann Bridge - of This Parish
Marriage: 31 Oct 1815 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Thomas Smith - of This Parish
Ann Darbyshire - (X), of This Parish
How do I determine which of these is the marriage I'm looking for? I really would appreciate some guidance as to where I should go from here. ???
Jim
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Unfortunately there's unlikely to be an easy answer, especially with surname Smith :)
Do you know anything about where Martha fitted into the family, age-wise? If you can find siblings' baptisms you may be able to narrow down choices for the parents' marriage. However, if she was their 10th or 12th or 15th child you may have to take the search back a few years!
Is Martha with her parents in 1841, and if so what are their ages and who else is in the household? If you can find them then, do they survive until 1851 so as to give a precise birthplace and non-rounded age?
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As the baptism is post 1813 when printed registers appeared, is there any reference to occupation for the father? Similarly do the marriage registers indicate occupation? Not conclusive, but a possibility :-\ You may have to look at copies of the parish registers themselves to find this information, it may not be shown in indexes such as IGI.
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Unfortunately there's unlikely to be an easy answer, especially with surname Smith :)
Do you know anything about where Martha fitted into the family, age-wise? If you can find siblings' baptisms you may be able to narrow down choices for the parents' marriage. However, if she was their 10th or 12th or 15th child you may have to take the search back a few years!
Is Martha with her parents in 1841, and if so what are their ages and who else is in the household? If you can find them then, do they survive until 1851 so as to give a precise birthplace and non-rounded age?
Yes indeed, having a Smith in one's family tree is never easy but fortunately Martha is the only one so far. She got married in 1838 so she was not with her family for the 1841 census and so far I've not been able to find Thomas and Anne either and hence none of the siblings. Thanks for the tips anyway avm228, I shall persevere!
Jim
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As the baptism is post 1813 when printed registers appeared, is there any reference to occupation for the father? Similarly do the marriage registers indicate occupation? Not conclusive, but a possibility :-\ You may have to look at copies of the parish registers themselves to find this information, it may not be shown in indexes such as IGI.
Yes the baptism gave the father's occupation as currier which matched that on Martha's marriage certificate. That's why I was so confident that I had the right baptism. Unfortunately occupations were not given on the marriage records, but they were from the IGI so, like you say, I really need to see the original copies. Thanks for your help BumbleB.
Jim
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Hi Jim: OK so occupation may not be given on the marriage parish register, but it needs verifying, and even witnesses might give clues. Good luck!!
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Who were the witnesses at Martha's marriage, could any of them have been a sibling (including a married sister)? If so, have you been able to find a suitable baptism for them? I don't have a feel for how big the parish of St Elphin will have been, it's not totally impossible (if not terribly likely) that this is the same Thomas marrying three times in quick sucession. One of my ancestors did marry three times in five years, the first and the last wife being an Elizabeth and initially I had the wrong mother (both his first and second wife were buried very shortly after the birth of their first child, sadly). If you can get access to the original parish records or a transcript I would try to build up a picture of all the Smith families in the parish and then, hopefully, you may have a better idea which one is yours.
Ermy (three Smith lines and one Jones so far) ::)
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Another clue is to try to find the given names of all Martha's siblings, and her possible aunts and uncles. Names - especially unusual ones - tend to run in families. It is never definitive. But if for example only one of those Anns has a sister Martha, and none of the Thomas candidates have a sister Martha, it points in that direction.
Also I agree with Ermintrude46 that you need to consider multiple marriages. Look at the burial records (looking for for Ann Smith). Look at all children of Thomas and Ann Smith to try to establish whether there are multiple families with same name. The first test is the frequency of christenings. In general you would expect children to average at least a year apart.
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Baptisms at St Elphin on the Lancs OPC site from 1813 to 1828 show:
children of Thomas and Anne Smith of Poulton
Mary 1816 (father Husbandman)
John 1818 (father Victualler)
Elizabeth 1819 (father Victualler)
Ann 1821 (Victualler)
Thomas 1824(Farmer)
William 1828 (Farmer)
I think these are probably all the same family as the address is always Poulton.
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Children of Thomas and Ann Smith of Foundry Lane
Richard 1813 (Weaver)
Thomas 1815 (Weaver)
Thomas 1817 (Weaver)
William 1819 (Weaver)
Anne 1821 (Weaver)
Henry 1824 (Weaver)
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Children of Thomas and Ann Smith of Fennel Street
Martha 1819 (Currier)
Mary 1821 (Currier)
Elizabeth Mercy 1822 (Currier)
I can't see any earlier or later children for this couple within the time frame 1813-1828.
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I've come across some quite prosperous curriers so it may be worthwhile looking at Wills,also the particular family I was looking at tended to marry within the trade of curriers/leather dealers, probably because they knew the families from business dealings :-\
Hmm, it looks as if Thomas was an insolvent debtor by 1831 according to the London Gazette.
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Thanks Ermy and johnxyz for giving me the benefit of your experience. Some of those tips I wouldn't have thought of and I'll certainly consider them in my search for this particular piece in my jigsaw.
Thanks Galium for what is obviously a great deal of time and effort you've put into this. I'm still not sure which of those marriages is the right one but you've provided me with a lot of detail which I can now build on.
And thanks angelfish58 for the information that Thomas may have been an insolvent debtor. Up to now my family have been quite boring but at long last I might have discoverd a skeleton in the cupboard. Yippee!!!
Jim
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Sorry for the delay - I've only just got back to this thread.
Given those dates for the children, I'd focus on the second and third marriages, and the first and third sets of children. It's probable Foundry Lane is Ann McCormack, though if other parts of the puzzle don't fall into place that is an assumption I'd then re-visit.
There are gaps from marriage date to first christening for both the other 2 and I don't think there's anything that is a definite discrimator.
My nest step would be parish records, to see if perchance they give groom's occupation. Given the marriage to christening gaps, I'd double check for any children buried without a baptism.
I'd also look to see if any of the younger children are still with their parents in the 1841 census. Then if any parents are found, follow through into 1851 & possibly 1861 to check parents ages. Those would be useful if / when you eventually track christenings for the various Anns. Don't forget 1841 may well have rounded ages down to a multiple of 5.
It's all about building up a picture with as much information as possible. Part of the fun is cracking puzzles like this - good luck with it.
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Thanks once again johnxyz for giving me (and others) the benefit of your obvious experience. Like you say, the fun is in cracking the puzzle. If it was as easy as is made out on "Who do you think you are" it really wouldn't be as enjoyable. There they find what they want in a couple of clicks and in no time at all they've gone back 400 years! I do enjoy the programme and I'm sure it's got many 1000s of people interested in this fascinating hobby, but many probably give up when they find it isn't really as easy as the BBC try to make you think. Right, must get back to those parish registers and census returns! ::)
Jim
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Hello Jim,
My 3 x gt grandmother was Martha Smith, born abt 1816 in Warrington. She married in Liverpool in 1837 to George Cowan.
Martha was baptized 16 Feb 1815 St Elphin, Warrington, daughter of William and Mary Smith, abode Bank Quay, William's occupation Ship Carpenter.
William and Mary had a son James baptized in 1816.
I am also having a problem with the marriage of my Martha's parents.
I can only find one marriage in Warrington that would fit - William Smith - Mary Pilling in 1810, witnesses Phebe Tabener, Thomas Smith and Ireland Arrowsmith
I think I have found William and Mary Smith in the 1841 census living Hood Lane, Prescot, Lancashire. William is 46 Ship Carpenter his wife Mary is 45 and also in household is Hannah Cowen aged 3.
Martha Smith and George Cowan had a daughter Ann born in 1838 in Liverpool, but by 1841 they were living in Whitehaven, Cumberland but Ann is not listed in household.
I thought I would post my info. You never know the Thomas Smith witness to William's marriage could be your Martha's father?
Denise :)
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Hello Jim,
My 3 x gt grandmother was Martha Smith, born abt 1816 in Warrington. She married in Liverpool in 1837 to George Cowan.
Martha was baptized 16 Feb 1815 St Elphin, Warrington, daughter of William and Mary Smith, abode Bank Quay, William's occupation Ship Carpenter.
William and Mary had a son James baptized in 1816.
I am also having a problem with the marriage of my Martha's parents.
I can only find one marriage in Warrington that would fit - William Smith - Mary Pilling in 1810, witnesses Phebe Tabener, Thomas Smith and Ireland Arrowsmith
I think I have found William and Mary Smith in the 1841 census living Hood Lane, Prescot, Lancashire. William is 46 Ship Carpenter his wife Mary is 45 and also in household is Hannah Cowen aged 3.
Martha Smith and George Cowan had a daughter Ann born in 1838 in Liverpool, but by 1841 they were living in Whitehaven, Cumberland but Ann is not listed in household.
I thought I would post my info. You never know the Thomas Smith witness to William's marriage could be your Martha's father?
Denise :)
Many thanks for taking the time to post that information and apologies for not responding sooner. I have my doubts as to whether the Thomas Smith you mention is indeed the father of my GG-Grandmother Martha as the other details you give don't quite fit in with what I already know. However, I will file the information for future reference because it's only when one has several pieces of a jigsaw that a picture starts to take shape. Thanks again your reply Denise and good luck with your research.
Jim