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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Headgirl on Wednesday 22 February 12 15:58 GMT (UK)
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Im hoping someone can shed some light on a brick wall I seem to have hit.
My great great grandmother was ALICE BOND born 14.9.1864 in Wellar,Notts. On her birth certificate her father is named as JOHN HAYWOOD BOND and mother ELLEN JOHNSON. Yet on her marriage certificate to THOMAS HEAD in 1884 her father is listed as ROBERT BOND.
On all the census returns Alices father is listed as Robert born 1837 Fleet, Lincolnshire.
Alices older sister Minnie was born in Barton,Lincs and I have found a birth record for a Mary Hannah Bond Haywood in 1862 which Im pretty sure is her.
Are JOHN HAYWOOD BOND and ROBERT BOND the same person? If anyone can shed some light on this I would be very grateful.
Thanks
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Just a thought -
try looking for brothers JOHN HAYWOOD BOND and ROBERT BOND with daughters called Alice of about the same age.
It wouldn't be the first time! :)
Linda
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Ive tried searching for John Haywood Bond and Ive not come up with anything so far. It may be a connection or coincidence but when I traced Robert Bonds sister Sarah A Bond b.1832 Fleet she marries a Henry Haywood in 1857 in Holbeach,Lincs. This has just confused me further ??? Am I missing something blindingly obvious ???
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Does her fathers occupation on her marriage certificate match the census occupation for him?
I had two cousins born with the same name, qtr, year and place, but the occupation of the father on their marriage certificates help me sort them out
Ambers
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Robert is listed as a labourer on Alices marriage certificate and on the census' and John Haywood Bond is also listed as a labourer on Alices birth certificate
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I assume the birth cert says Wellow not Wellar as on the census (that's how it sounds). Is this Alice's baptism?
Wellow St Swithin PR
bap 9 Oct 1864, Alice dau of John Hopwood ROSE & Ellen, of Wellow, Machine worker
It just comes from a transcript, and Hopwood ROSE could easily be a mis-transcription of Haywood BOND. Maybe someone could take a look at the original to check?
Alexander
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Just as a matter of interest, have you found Alice's parents' marriage (as stated on either certificate)? I've just spent a fair while on FreeBMD looking for a marriage January 1855-1865 and I can't find anything. Plenty of Robert Bonds with an Ellen on the same page, but no Ellen Johnson. Nor are there any marriages at all for John Haywood Bond to anyone, or Ellen Johnson to any Bond in that timescale ::) Very strange.
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Who registered Alice's birth? Was it "John Haywood Bond" himself, or Ellen?
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I have the same problem with one of mine- turns out that dad died when she was only 3 and she was brought up by a step dad. As she knew what her surname was, she used that as her dads name but gave the christian name and occupation of her step dad.
Her dad was William but by the time she married he had become John (stepdad!)
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Just as a matter of interest, have you found Alice's parents' marriage (as stated on either certificate)? I've just spent a fair while on FreeBMD looking for a marriage January 1855-1865 and I can't find anything. Plenty of Robert Bonds with an Ellen on the same page, but no Ellen Johnson. Nor are there any marriages at all for John Haywood Bond to anyone, or Ellen Johnson to any Bond in that timescale ::) Very strange.
I can't fnd a marriage either. I note that she's Ellen (33) in 1871, Elenor (42) in 1881, Ellen (51) in 1891, Lenora (60) in 1901 & possibly (free index) Leonora in 1911, always born Newcastle.
The only match I can find for Robert in 1861 (though his birthplace is given as Boston rather than Fleet) claims already to be married, though his wife is not with him.
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Alices older sister Minnie was born in Barton,Lincs and I have found a birth record for a Mary Hannah Bond Haywood in 1862 which Im pretty sure is her.
I think it would be very helpful to get "Minnie's" birth certificate that you mention. It would help to know if John Haywood Bond just appears for Alice's birth, or if he was around before that. Also it would be good to confirm whether Ellen was maiden name Johnson.
At the moment I'm thinking that Robert and John Haywood Bond were two different people, but Alice was raised by Robert so put him on her marriage cert. Though there is something strange going on since there seems to be no marriages... :-\
Ellen was from Newcastle you say - might it be worth looking over the border into Scotland for her marriage?
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Alices older sister Minnie was born in Barton,Lincs and I have found a birth record for a Mary Hannah Bond Haywood in 1862 which Im pretty sure is her.
From www.familysearch.org:
Baptism, Barton upon Humber, Lincs
24 Nov 1862
Mary H B HAYWOOD
daughter of John Haywood & Ellen
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Thanks for all the replies,its definately a confusing one isnt it!
I cant find any marriage records for Robert to Ellen either.
Freckneale - I havent come across this reference before, can you tell me where you found it please so I can investigate further?
It was Ellen that registered the birth and she gives her name as Ellen Bond formerly Johnson. I have struggled to find a birth record for her too but am trying to concentrate on the Robert Bond/John Haywood Bond issue at the minute so wont go off on that tangent ;D
avm228 I have this record too, thanks.
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Hello.... :)
You are right that this is a confusing one,I don't have all your answers only a few things to consider. :-\
I think that Robert Bond was already married and so he wasn't free to marry Ellen.
There is this marriage.....
Holbeach All Saints - 9th April 1860
ROBERT BOND, father William
& ANNE LETITIA NICHOLS, father Thomas
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This Robert and Ann are never found together and as I think someone has already mentioned on the 1861 Robert says he is married but not with a wife.
Anne's parents were Thomas Nichols & Letitia Slater, married at Holbeach, 6th April 1830
Baptism at Holbeach - Anna Letitia Nichols - 6th March 1831 - parents Thomas & Letitia Nichols.
Anne's mother Letitia Nicholls was buried at Holbeach - 2nd April 1842, aged 41yrs
~ ~ ~
Anne is with her widowed father in 1851 in Holbeach
1851 - HO107/Piece/ 2097/Folio489/Page 15
~ ~ ~
A bit of a discrepancy regarding Ann on the 1861, she is with a John Hardy and family and described as aged 28, unmarried and sister in law, also with her is a 5 year old Elizabeth Bond, described as niece.
1861 - RG 9/ Piece 2329/ Folio 56/ Page 10 - Holbeach, Lincolnshire
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1871 - RG10/Piece 3331/Folio 56/Page 20 - Holbeach, Lincolnshire.
Ann Bond, Head, married, aged 41 - Charwoman, born Holbeach
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1881 - RG11/ Piece 3356/ Folio 64/ Page 28 - 23, Wellington St, Nottingham
Annie L. Bond , Head, W, aged 49 - General Nurse SMS? - born Holbeach, Lincolnshire.
Elizabeth M. Nicholls, daughter, Un, aged 25 - Charwoman - born Holbeach
Gertrude A. Nicholls , aged 1yr, granddaughter, born Nottingham.
~ ~ ~
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I had some of that information but not all so thanks. If Robert was already married and therefore not married to Ellen how would she have listed herself as Ellen Bond formerly Johnson on Alices birth certificate? Im assuming that she must have lied? Was this commonplace?
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I have seen on a number of occasions this occurring, I expect the marriages didn't work out and they couldn't afford to divorce so the new relationship behaved as though they were married and they wanted the children to have the fathers name etc.
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I had some of that information but not all so thanks. If Robert was already married and therefore not married to Ellen how would she have listed herself as Ellen Bond formerly Johnson on Alices birth certificate? Im assuming that she must have lied? Was this commonplace?
Yes it would be fairly common. Living together and pretending to be married was probably a lot more common than we tend to think.
If she came in and said "I am am Mrs Ellen Bond formerly Ellen Johnson, this is my child, father is Robert Bond" then that is what the Registrar would have written down -- she would not have had to provide proof of her name or marriage.
However, if she cam in and said "My name is Ellen Johnson, my child's father is Robert Bond but we arent married" then Roberts name could not be entered on the certificate unless he was also present at the time of registration
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Im wondering if Alices father was John Haywood but whilst Ellen was still pregnant with her John died and she subsequently met Robert Bond and that is why the name on the birth certificate is John Haywood Bond? I cant find anything so far for a John Haywood in the area to back this theory up though ::)
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I'm inclined to agree that it is likely that one of them was not free to marry before Alice's birth.
Are we sure that JOHNSON was Ellen's maiden name and that she had not been previously married?
If it's any help I'll be at Nottm archives in the middle of March and am happy to look up the Wellow entry in 1864 for Alice.
NC.
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There are births in 1837, that Iam sure you have seen but here goes anyway.
Dec 1837 Robert Bond Holbeach 14/303
Jun 1838 John Bond Sleaford 14/496
Fleet came under Holbeach.
There is a posting on Curious Fox ,Holbeach page about Robert Bond, is this you? If not it may be a help to contact the person who posted it.
Also it is very possible that Robert Bond simply changed his name to John Haywood to "get lost" as it were. Having left a wife behind to live with another woman, did we not see someone on WDYTYA, who's ancestor had done this....
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I'm inclined to agree that it is likely that one of them was not free to marry before Alice's birth.
Are we sure that JOHNSON was Ellen's maiden name and that she had not been previously married?
If it's any help I'll be at Nottm archives in the middle of March and am happy to look up the Wellow entry in 1864 for Alice.
NC.
Thanks for the offer, will the archives hold any more info than whats on Alices birth certificate as I already have this?
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I cant seem to find any records for JOHN HAYWOOD BOND other than whats already been mentioned, can anyone suggest what I should do next as Im stumped ???
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I know this is going to be a stupid question, but hey ::) ::)
On Alice's birth certiciate what does it actually state in the "Name and surname of father" column and "Name, surname and maiden surname of mother"?
You've told us that Ellen Bond was the informant, but I'd just like to get it straight in my mind regarding the actual wording for the parents, because the 1862 baptism (according to Family Search) appears to show the surname as HAYWOOD rather than BOND, supported by the GRO entry for Mary Hannah Bond Haywood from FreeBMD. ::)
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Hi BumbleB,
Not a stupid question at all as this seems to be quite complicated! Alices certificates gives the following info:
Name of informant : Ellen Bond
Name and surname of father: John Haywood Bond
Name, surname and maiden name of mother: Ellen Bond (formerly Johnson)
I found the same info as you for Alices older sister Mary Hannah where she is Bond Haywood but Alices surname is just given as Bond, no mention of Haywood.
So, just to summarise for the benefit of anyone else reading this, Im trying to find out:
Any records at all for John Haywood Bond who is named as the father of my gt gt grandmother Alice Bond
Robert Bond is named on Alices marriage cert as her father and appears on all census returns throughout her childhood - Are Robert Bond and John Haywood Bond one and the same person or is it just a massive coincidence that Ellen had 2 spouses with the surname Bond?
Thanks!
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This is certainly a difficult one. You said at reply #12 that you didn't want to go off on a "tangent" to find Ellen before the children were born, but it doesn't seem to me to be a tangent at all. Given that Minnie was born (as "Bond Haywood") in 1862, finding Ellen in 1861 - and ascertaining what she is calling herself and who (if anybody) she is with - could be very informative.
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This is certainly a difficult one. You said at reply #12 that you didn't want to go off on a "tangent" to find Ellen before the children were born, but it doesn't seem to me to be a tangent at all. Given that Minnie was born (as "Bond Haywood") in 1862, finding Ellen in 1861 - and ascertaining what she is calling herself and who (if anybody) she is with - could be very informative.
Good point, I have had a look in 1861 census' for her but cant find anything and as it seems Ellen didnt marry either John or Robert so I dont have a marriage cert I could order to find out her fathers name and work from there. Ellen also called herself different variations of Ellen on the census records from 1871 onwards so thats not helping to narrow down my search either, hmmm
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Afterthought - If I ordered Ellens death certificate (I know her exact date of death and location) what info would that give me? I have only ordered birth and marr certs before so dont know if it would be of any help at all
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Thanks for the clarification, and this is certainly a tough cookie ;) I agree with avm228 that we need to find Ellen in 1861, so :-*
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Afterthought - If I ordered Ellens death certificate (I know her exact date of death and location) what info would that give me? I have only ordered birth and marr certs before so dont know if it would be of any help at all
It would depend on when Ellen died
Modern death certificates give date & place of birth (but only as accurate as the informant's knowledge of the deceased)
Older ones don't give this information
Parents names are not recorded at all
So at best you will only get a repeat of what I presume you already have got from census entries
There will also be a column for cause of death and Informant - which is very often a relative. You might get extremely lucky and find the informant is Robert John Hayward Bond thus confirming the two Bonds are one and the same!
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Sorry about this, but have we got another anomaly in this family - Minnie?
1881 census - RG11 4669 folio 6 page 5 - Handsworth
Robert Bond - 42 - labourer in colliery - born Fleet
Elenor Bond - 42 born Newcastle
Mary (May) - 14, Thomas William - 9, Lily - 6, Rose - 3 and Robert Edward 2 weeks PLUS
William Hewit - 22 - son in law born Newark
Minnie Hewit - 19 - wife - born Barton
Robert William Hewit - 6 months - grandson born Handsworth
However, the only marriage I can find for William Hewit(t) with a Mary (Minnie's correct forename ??) on the same page is in Sheffield district in 1881 and Mary is Mary ELIZABETH OXLEY :o :o As Minnie is only 19 she surely can't be a widow, can she? I can't see a marriage between Bond and Oxley 1875-1881.
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Minnie is Mary Hannah Bond Haywood and she married William Hewitt Donson in Sheffield 1879 - took me a while to sort out this one too! She dropped the Haywood part of her name at some point and her husbands full name wasnt stated on that census. What a muddle eh!
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Phew ;D ;D ;D They don't like making things easy for you, do they?
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From lincs to the past
Baptisms Fleet
Sept 7 1837 Robert Bond son of William and Hannah father a labourer
Dec 29 1840 Hannah Bond dau of William and Hannah father a labourer
Baptism Barton on Humber St Mary
Apr 5 1863 Betsy dau of William and Elizabeth Haywood shoemaker. This is the only one I could find, no Bonds either between 1860-1865
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Hi
Im trying to discover the maiden name of my 3xgt grandmother and have had no sucess, I put a post on here a few years ago but unfortunately the mystery wasnt solved. here is what I know: My 3xgt grandmother had a variety of names that she used across various censuses and on the birth certificates of her children. Her first name has been listed as Eleanor,Ellen,Lenora and Leonora. Her married (although I cant find a marriage certificate) name was Bond. On one of her childrens birth certifcates she lists her name as "Leonora Bond late Harcourt formerly Nevins" on another "Ellen Bond formerly Johnson" It also seems that she had her first child Mary Hannah Bond with a man called John Haywood and gives her name as "Ellen Haywood formerly Johnson"
She is listed as being born in Newcastle abt 1838.
Here are the 1871 details:
Attercliffe , Yorkshire , England
Robert Bond 34
Ellen Bond 33 born Newcastle, Northamptonshire, England
Minnie Bond 8
Alice Bond 6
May Bond 4
Any help would be great as i am completely stumped ???
Thanks xx
Copy & Paste removed , please transcribe Census details.
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Link to previous post to prevent duplication of info
Threads merged.
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Thanks Carole!
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Im hoping someone can shed some light on a brick wall I seem to have hit.
My great great grandmother was ALICE BOND born 14.9.1864 in Wellar,Notts. On her birth certificate her father is named as JOHN HAYWOOD BOND and mother ELLEN JOHNSON. Yet on her marriage certificate to THOMAS HEAD in 1884 her father is listed as ROBERT BOND.
On all the census returns Alices father is listed as Robert born 1837 Fleet, Lincolnshire.
The only baptism of an Alice at Wellow is the following
9 Oct 1864 Alice dau of John Hopwood ROSE and Ellen abode Wellow father a machine worker
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Thanks Larkspur. That first query has now been resolved, my new post was linked to the old one but is about Alices mother Eleanor/Lenora/Ellen. Im hoping someone can shed some light on her maiden name.
Thanks all for reading!
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Im thinking Eleanors maiden name is Nevins or Nevens as my great grandfather (her grandson) was named Thomas Edward Nevens Head but Im struggling to find an Eleanor Nevins born in Newcastle around 1834-1839 and any census records thereafter. The first census I have her on is the 1871 where she is now Ellen Bond.
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I think this would be a good contender, but I am also having trouble finding her as a child.
Helen NEVANS
Christening Date: 13 May 1839
Christening Place: Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Father's Name: John NEVANS
Mother's Name: Mary
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7PB-F6J
If you do a catalogue search for that film number you will find that it was a Catholic baptism:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/783862?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Some of Ellen's children's birth regs have already been discussed, I think this is a full list...
1862 Mary Hannah Bond HAYWOOD (mmn JOHNSON)
1864 Alice BOND (mmn JOHNSON)
1867 May BOND (mmn EVANS)
1871 Thomas William BOND (mmn NEVANS)
1874 Lilly BOND (mmn NEVINS)
1878 Rose BOND (mmn NEVINS)
1881 Robert Edward BOND (mmn NEVINS)
Perhaps her mother had remarried to a JOHNSON?
Debra :)
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Thanks Dundee, I hadnt considered Helen as a variation of Eleanor/Ellen etc so I will look into this :)