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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rvb on Sunday 26 February 12 19:03 GMT (UK)
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THOMAS THOMAS & ELLEN THOMAS - MONMOUTHSHIRE BOARD
I am trying to locate the death of my Great Grandparents, last known address 29 William St, Trethomas, believed to have been buried in St Johns, machen.
Electoral Roll from 1918 to 1929 indicates they were still alive at this time. Addresss 29 william street, trethomas.
Unfortunately no middle names. I believe them to have deceased before 1941 but not 100% sure. Their birth would be approximately 1867. Daughter Annie Ellen Thomas (married name Phillips. Husband: William Phillips) may be informants
I have had someone on this site that has been very helpful in search for headstones for this family in various cemetries but unfortunately no success. Possibility in unmarked grave.
If anyone can do a look up in qwent records for me that would be greatly appreciated or has any any hints.
Also does anyone know of any funeral parlors close to trethomas that was around in 1930's.
Thank you
rvb
I have now located the deaths of my great grandparents:-
Ellen Thomas died at 12 edwards terrace, abdertridw, nr caerphilly on 15.9.1934.
My grandad is showing up as the informant at Ellens death.
Thomas Thomas died at 46, Caerbragdy, caerphilly, glamorganshire on 4/1/1936.
The informant in this case was a Mary Jane Edwards (not known to the family).
The funeral parlor could not give me any additional information and they were both buried in penyrheol cemetry.
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Hi
Freebmd death transcription coverage is up to the late 1940's so have you checked for a death to establish the year in which they each died
www.freebmd.org.uk
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I have been searching for their deaths on line for several years but recently I believe from my searches that they died approx 1935 & 1936. The problem is that I dont live in wales and find it difficult to get to gwent office to check the information.
My elder sister indicates that she cannot recall them at all and she was born in 1941. The remainder of the family who are elderly say they cannot remember them very well and have never been interested in the family tree.
hope this answers your question and if I can help any further with information please do not hesitate to contact me.
thank you rvb.
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Also posted on but advised to post on this board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,583342.msg4347894.html#msg4347894
Until you are able to find a death registration on freebmd - it's impossible to find a burial as their names were not uncommon
Electoral Roll from 1918 to 1929 indicates they were still alive at this time. Addresss 29 william street, trethomas.
Does that specifically mean they were alive in 1929 or just sometime between 1918-1929?
Have you checked the electoral rolls from 1930 for that address
They may have moved to a different district of Monmouthshire as they got older but it's impossible to say.
As you can see on your previous post - no trace was found in some of the local graveyards. Did you follow up on the 2 deaths you found?
Freebmd is really the only starting point here and looking at one of the replies - if they stayed in Trethomas you are looking for NewportM RD up to 1936 and then Caerleon after that
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They were alive at 29 william street in 1929. The electoral roll shows this. Also Llewellyn Thomas - Annie ellens thomas first born child died in may of that year and thomas thomas was present at the time of death.
The two deaths I have found I shall be checking this week with GRO to see if they can help. The only thing is I have no family details other than my grandmother the thomas daughter and the address to go by. I do not believe they moved to a different area as far as I am aware and have no documentation to confirm or deny this.
I have not checked the 1930 electoral roll as I do not live in wales so difficult for me to access qwent records. So if any one out there can do a look up for me that would help as these records arnt on line.
thank you ruth
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Have you checked freebmd from 1929 onwards - as mentioned earlier - coverage is to the late 1940's
www.freebmd.org.uk
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Hi as you mentioned the fact of the free bdm I did a check through their website but there is such a huge amount of thomas thomas' I would not have a clue. Not sure where to go from here. I was hoping the death of thomas thomas would link directly with my grandmother whose birth certificate I am searching for also. This would then lead me to her mothers full name. I feel I need to get in touch with the GRO tomorrow as they have already done several searches both on annie ellen thomas (my grandmother) and Thomas Thomas her father.
If you do think of anything please do not hesitate to contact me.
thank you rvb
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Although there are a lot of entries of that name - have you narrowed it down by looking at their ages at the time of death
Have you further narrowed it down by confining any search to the 2 registration districts mentioned?
I was hoping the death of thomas thomas would link directly with my grandmother whose birth certificate I am searching for also
A death cert will not help you find that type of info
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To update you I have now obtained the birth certificate of Annie ellens son Lewellyn Thomas born 30/9/1915 registration district llandilofawr, county of carmarthen. Born at 18 harrold street, tir-y-dale, ammanaford. Annies address is showing as 39 Margam street, caerau, glamorgan. The childs death was at 29 william street, trethomas, glamorgan in 1929. Thomas thomas was present at death and was the informant.
Annie married her first husband in 7/5/1916 in caerau, glamorgan and her address is showing up as 36 margam street, caerau. Her husband Ernest Edwins lived at ivira street, ammanaford. Ernest died in 1917 in france. Annie ellen then remarried william phillips in 1921. I need to find out annies mothers single name we know it was ellen thomas on the electoral roll but full names are not shown. I dont know where in wales annie was born so cant go back to school records. If we had access to the later electoral rolls on line that may be of help but I dont have that information to hand. I thought that if I could trace thomas thomas and his wife ellen I might have a better insight into it.
Any suggestions? thanks rvb
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Annie married her first husband in 7/5/1916 in caerau, glamorgan
How old was she when she married or do you have other info re: her birthyear?
If she married in 1916 - she was more than likely born before the 1901 census so have you checked that census for her or checked the 1911 census
Freebmd only has 2 possible births for that name
1894 - Neath
1898 Aberayron
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If Thomas Thomas was shown as present at the death of Annie's son he presumably reported the death
Can you confirm he is shown as Llewellyn's grandfather
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There is a 1901 entry for an Ellen Ann Thomas aged 5 b ? Aushire Glamorgan parents Thomas R or N or M Thomas aged 35 and Ellen aged 36
Family were in Flint in 1901
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On the first marriage certificate in 1916 it indicates Annie ellen was 20 years of age which makes it 1896. On her second marriage certificate in 1921 it states she was 29 which makes it 1892.
Yes I have searched the 1911 census and did locate one which indicated the family had been married for 22 years and had 8 children but only annie ellen was still alive. I eliminated this one as one of my uncles indicated there was more siblings and he could recall annies sister who lived in yorkshire. (not sure of the acuracy)
This is the census information
Annie Eleen Thomas
Mother:
Ellen Thomas
Father:
Thomas Thomas
Birth:
abt 1896 - Cefn, Brecknockshire, Wales
The aushire one is a possibility. I have no information as where the family lived prior to 1916 so have no details to confirm or deny. I have kept this one in my file for future reference.
Llewelyns death certificate states son of annie ellen thomas late edwins now wife of william henry phillips coal miner (ripper). Informant: the mark of thomas thomas grandfather present at the death at 29 williams street, trethomas, bedwas. Died of acute bronchopneumonia.
I can get the neath birth checked out again by GRO but dont have the 1898 one so can look a little further into that.
I hope I have answered all your questions but it you think of anything else please let me know.
Thank you for your help you are certainly making me think as I feel I may have been looking at it from the wrong angle.
thanks again rvb
Residence:
2 Apr 1911 - Vaynor, Glamorgan, Wales
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That is the same family I mentioned earlier - living in Flintshire. Parents birthyear and birthplaces match but unfortunately there is a big black mark over Thomas's occ so difficult to compare
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1901 entry mentioned
Ucha Voel, Dyserth, Flintshire RG12/5234 folio 54 pg 23
Thomas R Thomas head mar 35 lime quarryman b. Caernarvonshire, Llanidan
Ellen wife 36 b. Denbighshire, Llanddewi
Ellen Ann dau 5 b. Glamorganshire
the transcription shows Aushire, the census itself does not.
birth reg
Ellen Ann Thomas march qtr 1896 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 483
edit to correct typo
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the transcription shows Aushire, the census itself does not
That's correct - When I first looked at the image - it seemed to say Glamorgan Aushire hence my question mark - looking at it again - it actually says Glamorganshire!!
rvb - I suspect you have already seen that entry as a Ruth Bailey has posted a comment in 2011 asking what Thomas's occ was
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I wonder if you have checked this birth which Osprey found with GRO?
Ellen Ann Thomas march qtr 1896 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 483
The reason I ask is because you have both the 1901 and 1911 census for this family - comparing them 1901 is "Ellen Ann" and 1911 is "Annie Ellen" - year of birth fits in with age at first marriage and probable death year - Thomas & Ellen came from North Wales and spoke both Welsh and English - there do seem to be lots of bits which match up.
Good luck, Fairlane
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Hi Nice to hear from you. Since I have placed this item on the website I have added more information to my tree.
1. I have my grans (annie ellen thomas) death certificate which indicates her birth date 23.12.1897 and she was born in Merthyr, glamorgan. (not sure if this is merthyr tidfil. ) Her name on it is Anne Ellen. The informant is my uncle so I know that is correct.
2. I have my great grandmothers death certificate showing her name as Ellen Thomas (no maiden name mentioned on it.) States wife of thomas thomas - coal hewer and informant w h phillips which is my grandfather. Ellen was 71 at her death and lived at edwards terrace, abertridwr. (this address ties in with what the family have indicated to me).
3. I am currently waiting on thomas thomas death certificate to see if that shows anything but the bereavement services say that thomas died 04/01/1936 at 46 Caerbragdy, Caerphilly, Glamorganshire, South Wales.
4. I do believe I now have the certificate you are talking about which osprey mentioned I have received it today which shows ann ellen,DOB: 17.3.1896, father thomas thomas and mother ellen thomas formerly thomas. Residence: 53 oxford street, ystradyfodwg, glamorgan (any ideas where this is as it does not come up when I google it?) It states the father is a colliery haulier.
I have not been able to find the marriage of this couple though.
So I am trying to delve through this information as I am afraid I could easily go in the wrong direction.
Any help would be appreciated and I take your comments on board and I appreciate that as it makes me feel more confident that I am on track with the information about the family.
thank you ruth
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well, you have conficting info from death & birth cert. The uncle you mention registering the death of Anne Ellen, is he her son? How likely is it that he would get the birth date and place correct? It's not the easiest time when you register a death and mistakes can happen. My mother got her mother's age wrong when registering her death.
If Merthyr is correct, it would be Merthyr Tydfil as the other Merthyrs would have the second word in the name (Dyfan, Mawr).
If the birth date is correct, there are other possible birth regs
Ellen Thomas dec qtr 1897 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 732
Ann Thomas march qtr 1898 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 737
Annie Thomas march qtr 1898 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 704
People were registered with the name they were known by, so a death under the name Anne Ellen doesn't mean her birth was necessarily registered as that.
Ystradyfodwg was a very large parish
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Ystradyfodwg/
1901 53 Oxford St, Ystradyfodwg RG13/5020 folio 141 pg 17
Thomas J Thomas head mar 32 colliery repairer below ground b. Breconshire, Swansea Valley
Eleanor wife 34 b. Cardiganshire, Tregaron
John son 7 b. Glam, Maerdy
Ann dau 5 b. Maerdy
Williiam son 3 months b. Maerdy
Stephen son 3 months b. Maerdy
Benjamin Lewis boarder 21 colliery haulier b. Carmarthenshire, Whitland
John Lewis boarder 19 b. Whitland
William Henderson boarder 19 railway porter b. Glam, Taffs Well
so look for Oxford Street, Maerdy, Ferndale.
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likely marriage reg for the couple at 53 Oxford Street
Thomas Thomas sept qtr 1893 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 763 with Ellen Thomas on the same page
By the way, maiden names don't appear on death certs until 1969 & even then info is only as good as the knowledge of the informant as at other times.
::)
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Hi I am back on my family tree and would like to give you an update. Records Indicate Thomas Thomas lived at 29 William Street, Trethomas with Ellen Thomas until 1933. The records show the house they lived in was as a result of Thomas' work (Miner). Then in 1934 Ellen shows up on the electoral roll in 12 Edwards Terrace, Abertridwr with Annie and William Phillips (my grandparents) but no Thomas Thomas. Ellen Thomas dies in Sept 1934. I have checked to see if Thomas Thomas died at that address in 1933-34 and they have no record of him. Does anyone know of any other way I can get further information on Thomas Thomas at that address which may give me birth dates or where he was born. On the rear of one of my uncles official boxing licence it states mother comes from North Wales. Family states Snowdonia but again not very specific. Anyone got any ideas at all ?? or location I should search? I know this is a toughy but any help would be appreciated.
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have you checked the 1939 register for William & Annie? It should give their dates of birth so would confirm the date given on her death certificate?
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Hi Yes I have I have found William and annie phillips and their children. When they moved from trethomas on the electoral roll in 1933 in abertridwr, it had annie William and ellen Thomas but no Thomas Thomas. Ellen died in 1934
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does the date of birth match the one you have mentioned? 23 Dec 1897?
If so, there is a Glamorgan school admission for Ann Ellen Thomas in 1906 admitted to St Mary's RC Seniors dob 23/12/1897 father Thomas, address Picton Inn, previous school Wrexham RC.
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possibles from 1911 with correct names of parents
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWX4-DTP
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWX3-MKK
second one being the same family that I gave you the 1901 census and you have the birth cert that gives a different date of birth.
Also, this one working away from home
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXJ-R1W
If she is the one born in Vaynor, have you asked the registrars at Merthyr Tydfil to check for her birth to see if date matches?
https://www.merthyr.gov.uk/resident/births-deaths-marriages/copy-certificates/
Or likewise the Pontypridd registrars in case she was the one born in Rhondda?
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Hi thank you for all that information. I have contacted Merthyr to ask them if they can check the dob to see if it corresponds between 1939 census and 1911 census. On the 1939 census it give annie ellens dob as ??/12/1896. I have considered the vaynor one before and checked with one of my uncles who said he didn't think that was the family but I still have my doubts that he may be wrong. I was trying to find the 1901 census for this one as from memory she had 9 children but only one survived. The rhondda one I have considered this one too as there are twins in the family. According to my grandmother she had several twins who did not survive and this could be a link. Anyway I will wait and see now what they find with the Merthyr records. thanks again you have been so helpful
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I am getting a little excited about the Glamorgan school admission register for annie as the closest I have got through the 1939 census states dob: ??/12/1986. The school admission stated 23/12/1897. The various family members state her birthday was 23rd December. My gran (annie) always said she was from north wales but I never got close to her being in that area from the certificates I have furthest north was Ammanaford. One of my uncles boxing licences on the back states mother born north wales but no specific area. So you can see why I am really really interested in this piece of information. thank you osprey
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1901 for this family has been mentioned before
Ucha Voel, Dyserth, Flintshire RG13/5234 folio 54 pg 23
Thomas R Thomas head mar 35 lime quarryman b. Llanidan, Carnarvonshire
Ellen wife 36 b. Llanddewi, Denbighshire
Ellen Ann dau 5 b. Glamorganshire
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Osprey thanks for this information, in the past I have eliminated this one because it states Thomas was a quarryman and the official certificates I have states he was a coal hewer. I am assuming quarrymen were working with slate? but will look into this a little further. I have investigated picton inn and Wrexham to see what I could find on annie. Picton Inn could have been a work place and there is a picton inn in Merthyr Tydfil, aberaman and nantyffyllon - all very close to each other so that may pinpoint the area prior to 1911 census. This looks interesting as I have certificates on Annie which pinpoints her living in caerau which is quite close to these areas. I have also looked at Wrexham and see that the coal industry was a major player right up to 1946. Therefore the family indicated Thomas Thomas moved to south wales to find work which does not really fit into this information. however I have a few more leads to look into. thank you
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Thomas was a lime quarryman on the census, so limestone not slate.
https://www.dyserth.com/quarrying.html
The link shows Upper Foel Road, census is Ucha Voel, same place.
Quarrying and hewing I would have thought were close enough to allow for transfer, both cutting jobs. There was probably more work available in coal at the time.
I think the school she went to was this one
http://calmview.cardiff.gov.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=D715
which might help identify which Picton Inn it was, so in Picton Street. (many places named for Thomas Picton - he died at Waterloo)
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Hi Osprey Just thought I would give you an update that I ordered the final marriage certificate for annie ellen Thomas dated 11/10/1965 and I received it this week. It actually states her fathers name was Thomas Robert Thomas (deceased) collier. This is the first time that I have come across a middle name for Thomas Thomas. I then noticed the family you think is applicable mentions Thomas R. Thomas. I am trying to locate annie ellens birth certificate reference as I think you could be right in that Thomas could be a quarryman in 1901 and then was a collier in 1911. I can see annie was born in Glamorgan where her parents were not. Do you agree this is her reference for her birth certificate so I can order it. Volume:11A, Page:483, Line Number:359. Thanks again for your help.
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no, I think that is the reference for a different girl as a child born in Vaynor would not be registered in Pontypridd, she should have been registered in Merthyr Tydfil. Given her December birth, the registration may have been dec qtr but could be march qtr of the following year. She may have been registered as plain Annie.
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Hi Osprey I am still trying to find annie from brecknock vaynors birth ref: do you think this is a possibility.
Annie Thomas
Registration Year:
1896
Registration Quarter:
Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district:
Crickhowell
Parishes for this Registration District:
View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County:
Breconshire
Volume:
11b
Page:
87
I have contacted Glamorgan records re the school registration and they don't believe there would be any further information in their records but are checking this out for me.
thanks again
RUTH
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the registration district of Crickhowell covered these parishes
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/crickhowell.html
Vaynor not included, it was covered by Merthyr Tydfil
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/merthyr%20tydfil.html
If you use the GRO site to check for registrations, you get mother's maiden name as well which can help to eliminate candidates.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
The maiden name given for that birth reg is Bishop and there's also a Stephen Joseph with same mmn registered 2 years earlier leading to this family in 1901
25 The Rise, Beaufort RG13/5172 folio 49 pg 4
Evan Thomas head mar 32 miners secretary's clerk
Mary Jane wife 30
John Edgar son 9
Stephen Joseph son 7
Annie dau 5
Harold son 1
Fanny Williams mother-in-law widow 70 b. Somerset, Paulton
all born Beaufort except Fanny
Evan Thomas married Mary Jane Bishop dec qtr 1890 Crickhowell vol 11b pg 259
If she was born in Vaynor, Annie Ellen should have been registered at Merthyr Tydfil. There is
Ellen dec qtr 1897 mmn Davies vol 11a pg 732
Ellen march qtr 1895 mmn Phelps vol 11a pg 742
Eleanor Ann march qtr 1898 mmn Williams vol 11a pg 700
Annie dec qtr 1896 mmn Holmes vol 11a pg 775
Ann march qtr 1896 mmn Davies vol 11a pg 716
Ann dec qtr 1895 mmn Thomas vol 11a pg 644
Ann dec qtr 1895 mmn Jones vol 11a pg 672
Ann dec qtr 1895 mmn Lewis vol 11a pg 638
Ann march qtr 1896 mmn Davies vol 11a pg 716
Ann march qtr 1898 mmn Thomas vol 11a pg 737
So you may need to ask the registrars to search to check names of parents
https://www.merthyr.gov.uk/resident/births-deaths-marriages/copy-certificates/