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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cumberland => England => Cumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: allans on Tuesday 28 February 12 11:26 GMT (UK)
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Please can someone look up the marriage of Edmond Wilson and Mary Twedy -
Q3 1872 Cockermouth. It may be an RC marriage. I believe this is the same couple as the 1881 Census entry Edward Wilson and Mary, Whitfield Crescent, Workington. RG11; Piece: 5178; Folio: 29; Page: 51; With 3 children.
If this is correct - the 3rd child on the Census is Rosanna Tweedy born 1867 Q4 Cockermouth (the census original was badly filled in and overwritten).
I would like to know if on the marriage cert her father is Patrick Corr. I expect her to be a widow but I cant find the death of her 1st husband John Tweedie, they married at the RC chapel in Cockermouth Q1 1867.
Any help greatly appreciated
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Hi Allans,
This should be under Workington Catholic chapel. The records are on microfilm at our local RO, so I shall look it up next time I'm in.
Stephen
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That would be greatly appreciated - Thanks.
Here's the sum total of what I know -
John Tweedie married Mary Corr M Cert has 26 Jan 1867, RC chapel, Cockermouth. His father Evan Tweedie, her father Patrick Corr
Rosannah Tweedie born 17 Dec 1867, Cockermouth - no baptism found, poss RC.
Details on BCert match marriage above.
After this date John Tweedie disappears.
Mary Tweedie married Edward Wilson registerd 1872 Q3 Cockermouth.
Was she a widow? Is her father Patrick Corr?
Rosannah Tweedie married James Kenyon 17 Nov 1867, Cockermouth registration office (so again poss RC) father on MCert is John Tweedie, deceased.
As I said I can't find a death for John Tweedie and I am wondering if he did a runner and his wife remarried, of if for some reason his death is missing from transcripts.
I would appreciate knowing if there is anything in the RC records to sort this out
- it is the Tweedie line that is the main focus of interest as it's my family name.
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Rosannah Tweedie married James Kenyon 17 Nov 1867, Cockermouth registration office (so again poss RC) father on MCert is John Tweedie, deceased.
If it was at the Register Office, it would have been a "civil" wedding - no religion involved at all. :)
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I quote from RC procedures for marriage
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Unlike in the Church of England and Church in Wales, where all ministers are able to perform and register the marriage at the same time, a Roman Catholic priest may not have such authosiration. In such circumstances, and to prevent the need for a separate civic ceremony at a later date, the couple (often via the priest) must arrange for a local Registrar or authorised officiant to attend the Catholic marriage ceremony.
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Thus certificates for RC marriage are issued by the registrar from his book and not by the priest from the church's book, and MC records/references are to the registry office records, not parish records, - although the RC church also records marriages in its own way.
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I quote from RC procedures for marriage
:
Unlike in the Church of England and Church in Wales, where all ministers are able to perform and register the marriage at the same time, a Roman Catholic priest may not have such authosiration. In such circumstances, and to prevent the need for a separate civic ceremony at a later date, the couple (often via the priest) must arrange for a local Registrar or authorised officiant to attend the Catholic marriage ceremony.
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Thus certificates for RC marriage are issued by the registrar from his book and not by the priest from the church's book, and MC records/references are to the registry office records, not parish records, - although the RC church also records marriages in its own way.
You are misunderstanding what it says.
The marriage takes place in the catholic church (I quote from a certificate) "in the catholic church according to the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Catholics" but as well as being signed by the catholic priest, is signed by the Registrar who was in attendence with his register book.
In a register office ... "Married in the Register Office according to the rites and ceremonies of the" signed by registrar and superintendant registrar.
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I know of at least one St. Beghs marriage that wasn't registered (apparently). I told a distant cousin in Ontario to contact them on their website, and she was sent info, including the marriage (17 Dec 1891) of Dominic Burgoyne and Elizabeth Ann Guthrie, but when I looked at Freebmd I could find no record of it. I once wrote there myself, and received info which included another marriage that seemingly never took place.
An ancestor of mine, Robert Cowan/Cowin, obviously did a runner around 1864/5, since his name was not on the youngest daughter's birth cert (there was also no baptism). There was no further trace of him. A man with the same name and occupation was living in Alabama in 1870, then Oklahoma, but the censuses say he was born in England, instead of the IOM - although I know the IOM can be classed as England in American censuses. His wife remarried to Christopher Reay in 1873.
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Geoff -
I think we are both correct - I agree with everything you say , and understand that.
My point is that if you havent seen the actual certificate and just have a reference that indicates the certificate is in the registrar's book then that means the registrar issued the certificate - either because the ceremony took place at the registry office or because it was a registrar-attended religious service.
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Allans,
Checked yesterday, and found no marriage at Workington Catholic SEP 1872. No notice in Whitehaven News, and also not at Cockermouth/Workington St. Michael, so I think it was probably Cockermouth register office.
Stephen
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thanks for trying
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The marriage takes place in the catholic church (I quote from a certificate) "in the catholic church according to the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Catholics" but as well as being signed by the catholic priest, is signed by the Registrar who was in attendence with his register book.
In a register office ... "Married in the Register Office according to the rites and ceremonies of the" signed by registrar and superintendant registrar.
Hello Geoff,
In some cases it is possible a couple could first marry in a register office and some years later get married in the Catholic Church. Because the couple had been through an earlier civil marriage (and so were 'legally married') the registrar would not attend the second (Catholic) marriage. Only the first (i.e. civil) marriage would show up on the 'Free BMD' website. Without checking the Catholic parish records or already knowing that this was the situation (i.e. from family records) it would be quite easy for family historians to miss the second marriage.
The reason for such a second (Catholic) marriage would be to ensure the couple were "properly" married, especially if any children of the couple in question had been baptised at the Catholic Church. There are a number of instances I could give from the Catholic parishes of St Mary's, Cleator or St Begh's, Whitehaven.
For example, one couple I know of married at Whitehaven Register office in 1918. The first child was born in 1919 and baptised at St Begh's R.C. Church. The following year (1920) the parents were married in accordance with the rites of the Catholic Church, again at St Begh's. The actual dates can be found in the following article I have previously written about this family:
http://2ndww.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/loved-in-life-mourned-in-silence.html
Perhaps you have come across other examples yourself?
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Perhaps you have come across other examples yourself?
Actually, I do have one. :)
My mam obtained a certificate of her baptism a few weeks before she married my dad in a C of E church. The following year, on the back of it was written -
"Ipsa contraxit matrimonium cum (my dad) in ecclesia Sancti Hugonis ... die 20 Januarii 19xx, Signed (Rev) J McC, Vicarius"
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A distant cousin of mine had an ancestor who married at St. Begh's on Dec 17th, 1891. Freebmd contains no record of Dominic Burgoyne/Elizabeth Ann Guthrie anywhere around that time, so the church record is the only evidence they were properly married.
Stephen
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A distant cousin of mine had an ancestor who married at St. Begh's on Dec 17th, 1891. Freebmd contains no record of Dominic Burgoyne/Elizabeth Ann Guthrie anywhere around that time, so the church record is the only evidence they were properly married.
Stephen
Interesting ....! As usual, if you knew the reason why this was so it would seem obvious!
In the 19th C many families settled in West Cumberland (e.g. Whitehaven & West Cumberland) having migrated from Scotland, Ireland, I.o.M. It would be quite possible for a civil wedding to take place in one of these places (Ireland) and the later religious ceremony in Whitehaven.
In France, it is normal practice for church members who are getting married to have two separate wedding ceremonies: a civil one at the Town Hall and a religious one at the parish church. Usually, but not always, the two ceremonies are on the same day or within a few days of each other.
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In the 19th C many families settled in West Cumberland (e.g. Whitehaven & West Cumberland) having migrated from Scotland, Ireland, I.o.M. It would be quite possible for a civil wedding to take place in one of these places (Ireland) and the later religious ceremony in Whitehaven.
That's a good point Joseph, but I can't see a Dominic Burgoyne in the Irish index. :-\
I did find an odd one in my tree ... a couple both born c1870, he in Whitehaven, she in Barrow (but moved to 'haven), apparently living in Cumb all the time but popping over to Belfast to get married in 1897. First child born in 'haven in 1898. [shrug]
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Dominic was a curious itinerant character. As "Dominick Burgine" he married Jane Cartmel in Workington in 1858. She ran a shop. He was a "herbalist" twice, a traveller (such as in the 1861 census at Ambleside - wife in Workington), and was in trouble with the law at least once. He was latterly in Cockermouth Workhouse (1901), a "peddler (hawker)".
Stephen
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An interesting discussion on this thread but it seems no one fully understands civil registration. The Cockermouth regustration district is that where all parishes within certain boundaries appear. Weddings whether in a church or in the register office will appear in the GRO indexes (FreeBMD is a transcript of these) Just because it says Cockermouth one should not assume that the wedding took place in any church in Cockermouth itself.
Rob
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... it seems no one fully understands civil registration ...
Obviously you do, which is something we must be thankful for. ::)
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And your sarcasm is most worthy of a slot on Radio 96's happy hour. If you read the thread from the start you will see where my point was coming from. The OP assumed because the reg district said Cockermouth then the person must have been married there. No one pointed this out and compounded this error by going on about RC priests not being registrars as well.
It was further compounded with the mention of French RC weddings where actually in France any marriage has to take place at the Mairie (town hall) for it to be legitimate. The church then bless the marriage.
I could go on but I wont share my 30 odd years experience with you any more
Rob
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Dominic was a curious itinerant character. As "Dominick Burgine" he married Jane Cartmel in Workington in 1858. She ran a shop. He was a "herbalist" twice, a traveller (such as in the 1861 census at Ambleside - wife in Workington), and was in trouble with the law at least once. He was latterly in Cockermouth Workhouse (1901), a "peddler (hawker)".
Stephen
Dominic Burgoyne was my mother's mother's father, but we have little information about him, and would like more. It sounds like you know quite a bit about him, Stephen. I realize this is an old thread. I'm in Canada. Thanks in advance for anything you can share.
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I was in touch with a Canadian descendant of his (Susan Forgeron), in St. Catharines, Ontario, during 2010 and 2011. She contacted St Beghs Church and got some info on him - which she forwarded to me. I could maybe put the info on here as an attachment.
Stephen
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I was in touch with a Canadian descendant of his (Susan Forgeron), in St. Catharines, Ontario, during 2010 and 2011. She contacted St Beghs Church and got some info on him - which she forwarded to me. I could maybe put the info on here as an attachment.
Stephen
I would appreciate it very much if you could do that, Stephen. Thanks.
Best regards,
Nick