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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jamison on Monday 05 March 12 21:43 GMT (UK)
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Hello Chatters
Need your help again !!!
Looking for a Richard HART and Bridget YOUNG
Richard HART
Born 1819 Dublin Ireland
Died 5 Feb. 1897 Wanagatta Victoria
Looking for any info. i.e parents...
He had 14 Children
Married to Bridget YOUNG
Born 1835 Galway Ireland
She died in 1898 Wangaratta Victoria
Anything to get me started !!!
Regards
Jamison
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Hi
Parents should be named on the marriage record for HART and YOUNG. If you dont have that yet then you could obtain the details of it from the birth certs of their children born in Victoria. You can then look for the marriage . Alternatively as you already have the death info for both Richard and for Bridget surely you already have those two Vic dcs? And the info re parents should be on those two records.
Cheers JM .. PS I am NSW Centric but I am sure VIC BDM certs are among the most detailed in the world. You can download images immediately with your plastic card for around $18 ea
Hello Chatters
Need your help again !!!
Looking for a Richard HART and Bridget YOUNG
Richard HART
Born 1819 Dublin Ireland
Died 5 Feb. 1897 Wanagatta Victoria
Looking for any info. i.e parents...
He had 14 Children
Married to Bridget YOUNG
Born 1835 Galway Ireland
She died in 1898 Wangaratta Victoria
Anything to get me started !!!
Regards
Jamison
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Hi there,
Well, I am sure this will get you more than started :)
Richard Hart married Bridget Young 7 Nov 1852 according to RC rites, and in the Yass District of NSW. The relevant NSW BDM Early Church Record would be referenced V1852, line 505, vol 98.
I have just spent a couple of minutes online from my armchair and thus gleaned the above information from two online sources which are both free to search. Here are the two links.
a) The date and denomination from https://familysearch.org
b) The Early Church Record from NSW BDM http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm
I leave it to you to follow up with checks of the Yass district's RC parish register/s, either via the Diocese or via the family history groups in that district.
Here's a link to the volunteers at the Yass & District HS http://www.yasshistory.org.au/about.htm
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps you need to get Richard's age sorted first. I see that he was supposedly aged 40 in 1872 when daughter Agnes was born. This gives him a birth year of c1832, not 1819. Do you have other documentation that refutes this age?
http://users.tpg.com.au/smithlr/module04/07_tracking_the_harts_2.htm
Debra :)
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Hello,
Richard HART d 1897 aged 78 Wangaratta- Richard HART and unknown mother # 3477
Bridget HART d 1898 aged 62 Wangaratta - Michael DEVANEY and unknown mother # 14303
Regards
Alison
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They had a son William b 1852 somewhere in Riverina area of NSW and lost a son Nicholas in 1878 at Wagga Wagga. Seems they moved around a bit.
From what alison has, it seems unusual if her fathers name was Devaney, then he may not have married Bridgets mother or........ unlikely;
if her age is right that she married previously?
Unknown mother is very strange ???
Her mother could very well be ..........?.?.?.YOUNG?
Also unless the informant never knew. ::) ... Always on the cards. 8)
Neil ;)
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Hello Jamison
Just in case you haven't seen it there is a digitised record of Letters of Administration of the estate of Richard HART, farmer, d 5 February 1897, of Wangaratta South granted to his widow Bridget. Included is an inventory - he owned acreage, a four-roomed slab house, 17 cows of various ages and colours and 10 head of young stock! Bridget signs with a cross.
There is also a file with grant of Administration to their eldest son Richard HART, farmer, of South Wangaratta because Bridget has died 9 August 1898, before Richard's estate can be fully administered.
http://210.8.122.120/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=54
As already pointed out on the other thread these are the parents of Steve HART the bushranger in the KELLY gang. Lots of info about him on TROVE etc. Here's the Wiki ref
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Hart
Judith
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I would be wanting to further confirm Richard's age with perhaps one of the middle children's birth certs - that is quite a large discrepancy.
Perhaps this is Bridget arriving:
Thomas Arbuthnot arr. Jan 1850 Sydney
Bridget YOUNG, 16, house servant, native of Hannadown(?), Galway, parents Michael and Ellen
Mary YOUNG, 21, nurse maid, native of Hannadown(?), Galway, parents Michael and Ellen
Debra :)
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I think DEBRA is correct in her arrival finding.
Here is the death of the woman who was possibly BRIDGET's first daughter (about 1853) and she possibly has her grandmother's given name.
Death
ELLEN O’Leary- Parents- RICHARD HART & Bridt YOUNG
Death Place MBNA
Age 71
Year 1924
Reg Number 2858
Sue
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Well, I too think that Debra is right in the likely arrival for Bridget YOUNG, you see, ummm ....
Also among those passengers on the Thomas Arbuthnot arriving Sydney 3 Feb 1850
Mary HART, aged 16, a Houseservant, of Galway, she was RC and could neither read nor write.
Catherine HART, aged 17, also a Houseservant, also of Galway, also RC and also not yet able to read or write.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/nrs-lists/nrs-5316
ADDING : And of course, I would not like the info in this post to distract from anyone trying to sort out WHO WAS MICHAEL DEVANEY, as per Alison's post re Bridget's d.c. registration.
Hello,
Richard HART d 1897 aged 78 Wangaratta- Richard HART and unknown mother # 3477
Bridget HART d 1898 aged 62 Wangaratta - Michael DEVANEY and unknown mother # 14303
Regards
Alison
Cheers, JM
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Hi all
I have a copy of Steve Hart's death Certificate
Place of death : 28 June 1880, Glenrowan, Oxley? Shire, County of Delatite
age 21 years
Cause of Death : very detailed -
'Found burned to death in the Hotel of Mrs Jones, Glenrowan,
Duration of Illness not known
Certified by Aleander Tone, Justice of the Peace 141, 29 June 1880
Surname of Father and Mother : Richard Hart, Farmer -
no surname shown for mother "not certified, further particulars not known.
There is a strange annotation in the next column "the words certified should not appear in the 5th column, and the word not certified should not appear in the 3rd and 5th columns , E."
Informant is shown as Thomas LLoyd, Naher, Greta
Deputy Registrar is Samuel Ellis, 30th June , Greta
Buried 30th June, Greta Cemetery, the undertaker was Thomas Lloyd
Minister was Daniel O'Keeffe
Witness was Richard Hart (father or brother?)
b. Wangaratta Victoria
21 years in Victoria
Not married.
"Here's to a sweet life and a merry one........"
MayHem
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Hi Jamison
The gt gt grandson of Richard Hart and Bridget Young of Wangaratta tells me that despite years of searching his past remains a mystery - 'rubbery' was the word.
They strongly suspect he may have changed his name to Hart,from Harding maybe, he spent some time in the southern highlands of NSW with Hamilton Hume the explorer, and worked on his property at Yass.
kind regards
May Hem
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I was also looking at Richard HARDING alias HART (or vice versa!) He was about the right age if the earlier birth date is correct, he had a brother Nicholas and they were from Dublin. I only mention this because your Richard HART had a son named Nicholas.
Nicholas and family seem to have stayed in Sydney though some descendants ended up in Queensland.
Perhaps some delving in the Colonial Secretary's Papers post 1830 might turn something up if not already done.
Some info here regarding published indexes (scroll right down to the bottom of the page) The fiche are available at a lot of libraries and family history societies.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-65
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
I should have said southern tablelands, not highlands.
Anne W, Rootschat 16 November 11, is also a descendant and, like my source, has documentation, but not absolute..
My source sticks with the word 'rubbery' regarding certainty of name.There were many secrets and aliases in those times.
Three of Richard's children were directly involved with the Kelly gang, and fourth one was married to a Lloyd.
You are quite a sleuth!
Mayhem
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Here's the link that May Hem is referring to.
Cheers, JM
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,566666.0.html
Anne W, Rootschat 16 November 11, is also a descendant and, like my source, has documentation, but not absolute..
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Thanks for that JM - I do now remember that post, and I wish I could remember to Google every now then!! It would probably save me hours of searching ::)
Debra :)
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Hi to you all
Thanks for taking the time to find/dig up info. on the family posted.
But, now, l think that time is needed to go through all the info. posted and sort out some problems arising from what has been supplied.
Then post a summary of what we have for further additions.
Regards
Jamison
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Hi Chatters and Jamison
I am breaking the silence to advise that this family is not central to my research or yours, Jamison.
MAH and Ellen Mary Hart's family had a longlasting friendship, not blood, connection through Richard and Bridget Hart's daughter, Rachel who married Tom Lloyd.
Patrick Hart may have been a cousin of Richard Hart but no evidence has been found so far by the Richard Hart researchers.
All the descendants of the branches of this Richard Hart family have well documented proof and full trees and are collaborating with Anne Hart mentioned in JMs post
The only mystery remaining for that group of families is whether Richard, Nicholas and Ann were blood relatives.
Maybe there is some interesting research to be done there by super sleuth!.
Regards
MayHem
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Hi
I am just going to add to the confusion. I have looked at this family of Steve Hart's previously as oral history from Granya Victoria has it that the kelly gang, including the Hart's came to Granya to visit cousins of the Hart's who lived there.
I was skeptical of this and believe that Richard Thomas Hart, born 1836 in Cornwall, died 1902 in Granya, who married maria Macklin [a distant relative of mine] was not related to the Hart's from Greta Vic.
I wonder if there is any possibility that your Richard Hart was not Irish after all, has anyone found his arrival in Australia?
mum mum
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Hi Jamison,
Adding another element to the mix ... Bridget HART was buried on 25 August 1898 in Roman Catholic section 1 grave 430S of Wangaratta cemetery.
Also in this grave is Rachel LLOYD buried 16th September 1958. She was a resident of Henty, NSW & her death registration there gives her parents as Richard and Badelia. (reg. no. 24573/1958 LLOYD RACHEL RICHARD BADELIA HENTY).
Records are incomplete but there may have been another burial (un-named person & no age given) recorded 23rd May 1897 in this grave. This is possibly the burial of Richard recorded perhaps when the grave was paid for.
Headstone only records Rachel. Note discrepancy in age at death.
LLOYD, RACHAEL.~ Age 98 YEARS; Died 13/09/1958; Buried 16/09/1958; Resided at HENTY; Section R.C.; Plot 430 S.
Inscription:
IN LOVING MEMORY OF OUR DEAR MOTHER
RACHAEL LLOYD DIED 13TH SEPTEMBER
1958 AGED 87YRS.
There is a report of Rachel's (and her sister Agnes) weddings here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70803028
Doesn't give you anything on Richard's forebears but at least it situates him in Wangaratta and more precisely as the Greta based family.
Best wishes,
Jenny
www.jcch.com.au
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Hi
Any information on whether Richard Hart could read and write, was he Catholic also?
Richard harding, alias Hart who arrived on the Lady McNoughten looks very likely as has been suggested by family members.
His place of birth is given as Dublin on Agnes's birth certificate from 1872, if he was Catholic and literate it would seem likely to be him. His age must be wrong though.
mum mum
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Hi Chatters
Thanks for all your posts.
I have not had much time, of late, to go through them in great detail.
I will take a look at the weekend.
Kindest regards
Jamison
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Hi Jamison
This family is not related to the MAH and your Ellen Mary Hart family as blood relations. There are however strong close friendship ties, especially with descendants of the Patrick Hart family and the Rachel Hart ( daughter of Richard Hart and Bridget Young)m. Tom Lloyd families, which persist to this day. As a distant relative to you, this is a dialogue I would like to continue with you off site.
As a famous close knit family in Australian folklore, the Richard Hart m. Bridget Young family descent records are complete, other than the issue of determining whether Richard, Nicholas and Ann Hart are siblings, hence the 'rubbery' comment. The group family are making great endeavours to discover this fact. Hence my suggestion for super sleuths to help with that particular problem.....
regards
Mayhem
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Hi Jamison
This family is not related to the MAH and your Ellen Mary Hart family as blood relations. There are however strong close friendship ties, especially with descendants of the Patrick Hart family and the Rachel Hart ( daughter of Richard Hart and Bridget Young)m. Tom Lloyd families, which persist to this day. As a distant relative to you, this is a dialogue I would like to continue with you off site.
As a famous close knit family in Australian folklore, the Richard Hart m. Bridget Young family descent records are complete, other than the issue of determining whether Richard, Nicholas and Ann Hart are siblings, hence the 'rubbery' comment. The group family are making great endeavours to discover this fact. Hence my suggestion for super sleuths to help with that particular problem.....
Hi Mayhem,
You could always start your own thread :) asking for super sleuths to help you determine if Richard, Nicolas and Ann Hart are siblings... and include brief summary of what you know, what you suspect and what you would like the super sleuths to search for, to confirm/eliminate or leave in that rubbery state.... ;) Also, if you decide to start your own thread, please include a link to this thread started by Jamison. Then Jamison could complete this thread.
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thank you for your suggestions - they are sound advice.
However this family is not central to my family research, I have enough unresolved issues in the Hart/Corcoran research to complete!
I have established that particular mutual ancestor family of Jamison and me/mine is not related to the Hart/Young family with which I have lately had a lot of personal contact to confirm. So I will be an interested observer only.
I did think though it would be a challenge for a super sleuth like you, and the other recent sleuths.......
best regards
Mayhem
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OK ;D, Good Luck with your searching ;)
I am very NSW Centric, so I am not at all familiar with Vic BDM records.... sorry, I am not much of a sleuth at all :D ...
For the benefit of those following this thread, or coming across it in the future, it seems to me that it was started as a result of a post (reply #42) on another of Jamison's threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,556870.0.html
The particular post reads :
"Reply #42 on: Monday 05 March 12 13:31 GMT (UK) »
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Hi May Hem
I am happy to have both in the family tree - Convicts and a blood relative of a Bushranger. No shame here in the 21st Century !!! Only when you have time to look it up - Owens !!! Keep in touch -
and l will start looking for Richard`s family etc...
Regards Jamison"
Cheers, JM
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Hi mum mum
We have a Patrick Hart, b.1824, m. 1853 in Victoria Margaret Corcoran/Corking b.1828, whose mother was Margaret Macklin.
We have problems tracing marriage and family details of this couple. Maybe a long shot but any connection to your distant relative?
regards
May Hem
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Hi All,
I've just come across this thread and can say that I am more certain than ever that Richard Harding alias Hart who arrived on the Lady McNaughten is the man who married Bridget Young and became the father of Steve Hart. He was the right age , born in Dublin, was Catholic and spent his convict years working for J K Hume at his "Collingwood" property in Gunning on the Fish River.
This ties in with everything that is known of Steve Hart's father as well as family stories that say that Richard Hart worked for the Hume family. But I don't know how it will ever be proven conclusively!
Whether Richard Harding alias Hart is in any way related to my Ann Hart/Magee/McGee is still up in the air. At the moment we are trying hard to track down our Ann's death. After several trips to NSW State Records at Kingswood and poring over the paperwork for Homestead Leases etc, we now know that our Ann was in Cunnamulla Queensland in 1894 and ,given her advanced age, probably died there.
There are two possible Ann McGee deaths in the right time frame and I will have to order both certificates. Fingers crossed that there is some good information!
Cheers
Anne
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How did the research go Anne W?