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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cavan => Topic started by: kiwi jeanie on Monday 05 March 12 23:38 GMT (UK)
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Hi .. although my husband is Irish (which is a little help) I am having trouble finding my way around the townlands, parishes, provinces, etc!!
The children of the family I am looking for were Church of Ireland at the 1901 and 1911 census. Their brother born 1839 who emigrated to NZ in the early 1860's is buried in the Presbyterian section and was married Church of England. He came from Knocknaveagh and the address of his siblings in the 1901/11 census is Knocknaveagh, parish of Munterconnaught, Cavan. The Archives of Church of Ireland do not include this parish in their listing of parishes in Cavan - does anyone have any idea where would I find their parish records. Also what church they may be buried in? I am going to be in Ireland in May and would love to have this information before I get there ::)
Many thanks in advance to anybody that takes the time to help me with this :-*
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Is this one of the census records you found?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Munterconnaught/Knocknaveigh/1052507
This looks like the local Church of Ireland-
http://www.geograph.ie/photo/791537
Details from Church of Ireland websites-
http://ireland.anglican.org/information/dioceses/parish/13860
http://virginia.ie/index.php?page=anglican-church-of-ireland
PRONI, Belfast have microfilm copies of some records from Munterconnaught C. of I. 1845-1904 (MIC/1/259), It may be that earlier records do not survive or remain in local custody.
Munterconnaught's census records from 1821 survive.
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Wow that was quick!!
Yes that is the brother - his daughter Eliza Jane is the one that came to NZ
How did you find the church - is it Knocktemple? I have come across the name but have been unable to access the records - there was a link but it's been removed unfortunately :(- Last question how do I find it's physical address?
Thanks so much :D
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Where did you find the church records had been online?
This site (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandsInCivil&CityCounty=Cavan&civilparishid=545&civilparish=Munterconnaught) mentiones them but you have to pay for a 'report' which, I think, tells you the details of what is available but does not show the actual records.
Some resources for Munterconnaught are listed here- including 1821 census I mentioned earlier. It would be worth looking at that census (lots of details included, unlike 1831 census) if your family was in the area at the time.
http://home.wavecable.com/~colin/genuki/CAV/Munterconnaught/index.html#ChurchRecords
Lots of local information posted here, including details from Munterconnaught R.C. Church (you'll need to be careful not to get the R.C. and C.of I mixed up)-
http://members.tripod.com/~Al_Beagan/tcavan.htm
The site also has some maps showing the parish and townlands which might make the local geography clearer.
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Ancestry have Knocktemple Old Cemetery Inscriptions, County Cavan, Ireland "The final resting-place of nearly 500 individuals, Knocktemple Old Cemetery is located in Munterconnaught Parish, Castlerahan Barony, Cavan County, Ulster Province, Ireland. This database is a listing of those persons interred there in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. Each record provides the decedent's name, date of death, and age. Additionally, some family relations are often provided along with other helpful information. For researchers of central Irish ancestors, this can be a helpful database." However, I don't think there are any Halls listed- this could just mean there is/was no headstone for the family.
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I live in the area, no Halls listed in current phone book for same
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I took the liberty of posting this link on the Munterconnaught heritage facebook site
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Munterconnaught-Heritage-Society/149259048478728
bodger
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Thanks Tony .. I have posted more information on the facebook page .. details are :-
parents of John Hall are William Hall and Elizabeth Strong - Stephen Strong was a witness at John's marriage in New Zealand and may be a relative. I only know of two of John's siblings - Elizabeth married Michael Bower and William who married Mary Whitley.
Many thanks
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Thanks for all the help .. I am way ahead than I was yesterday .. looks like there are no familiar names in the Knocktemple Old Cemetery .. would that have been the only church in the area for Church of Ireland in the 1800's?
I went to the link for the census .. I'm not familiar with the information given there:-
1821 Census LDS Film 0597158
Cooney, D., '1821 Census of the Parish of Munterconnaught', Breifne, v. 9, No. 35, 1998, p. 877-883
.. will the PRONI hold the census?
???
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1821 Census LDS Film 0597158 This is the LDS reference number for the microfilm
Cooney, D., '1821 Census of the Parish of Munterconnaught', Breifne, v. 9, No. 35, 1998, p. 877-883 This is a published copy
Quite a bit here online but don't see Kncoknaveagh listed-
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/IRL-CAVAN/2006-11/1163278923
National Archives Dublin-
http://cavan.rootsireland.ie/generic.php?filename=sources.tpl&selectedMenu=sources
PRONI- see www.proni.gov.uk to search online e-catalogue
MIC5A/5 Census Returns 1821, Co. Cavan, Barony Castlerahan and Munterconnaught
MIC1/259 1845-1904 Munterconnaught Parish Church, Co. Cavan
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thanks again .. I am on the cavan rootsireland sites and am currently handing euros over like there is no tomorrow LOL ;D Excuse my ignorance but what does LDS stand for? ??? Is that to do with Family Search? Any ideas where to find a published copy of the Census - would Cavan Genealogy or Library hold that? Will try PRONI later.
If you need any help with NZ sites I'm your girl!! ;D
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LDS = Latter Day Saints..yes Familysearch!!
Before you go around spending a pile of money you should try getting as much help on boards like this!
I know from trying to do my own Halls I could have spent a fortune on records that looked right BUT were not! You could try here; www.goo.gl/1sj2y where you'll also find a link to Jan who might have better knowledge or advice! She has been researching them for years!
You can always go to www.google.ie and search... "Hall" and "Knocknaveagh" where you'll get 324 results... a lot are rubbish but you could find something!!
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I have Eliza Hall bap Oct 19, 1882 to William and Mary at Knocktemple with a notation on file that says gone to NZ.
William married Mary Whitley 24 June 1869 at Knocktemple with a notation that this William was the son of William and that Mary was from Eather o/s Oldcastle.
These are all descendents of John and Elizabeth Hall of Knocknaveigh - see 1821 census - my family is also descendent from them.
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I have also gone through the copious images that I downloaded but I don't have a 1821 census for John and Elizabeth at Knocknaveigh - I did find something on line with other descendants who went to Canada (from memory) and so have them as John and Elizabeth born c 1775 with children Elizabeth (Bessie), James, John, Mary, Sarah, Thomas and William. I have nothing to substantiate this but thought it was likely as the names have been carried down in my line. But then of course with being Church of Ireland (with English heritage) I guess there weren't that many names to choose from!! I have also PM'd you - tried to send this as well but it wouldn't go through - I see there is a limit per day I guess. Who are you descended from?
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I am descended from Eliza [Bessie] Hall. I have tracked the families of Eliza, her brother Thomas and her sister Sarah. So your William is descended from either James, William or John.
1821 Townland of Knocknavea
House #4 - 1 story home
John Hall 45 Farmer 1776
Eliza, his wife 42 Spinner 1779
James, his son 22 Labourer 1799
William, his son 20 Labourer 1800
Thomas, his son* 18 Labourer 1803
John, his son 17 1804
Eliza, his daughter 15 Spinner 1806
Sarah, his daughter * 10 Spinner 1812
Mary, his daughter 2 1819
Mary Kelly 18 Servant
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Descended from William who married Elizabeth Strong. I have also been attempting to track the Strongs - they are in Eighter and Knocknaveigh. Stephen Strong was a witness at my GG Grandfathers (John Hall) wedding in New Zealand in 1867. He was a warden at the Dunedin Gaol and there was also a Samuel Strong who worked there in later years. I have been trying for a while to work out who they all are!! Do you have a copy of the census document - that would be brilliant if you could email it to me. I would also be interested in the families that you have tracked. Where are you based?
Many thanks
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Kwi Jane, there are still two Whitley familes living in Eighter, if want to contact them you pm me, i can give you there addresses and or phone nos.
bodger
William married Mary Whitley 24 June 1869 at Knocktemple with a notation that this William was the son of William and that Mary was from Eather o/s Oldcastle.
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Hi i believe that William Bower wife is buried in new Plymouth NZ you may know this i would like to find out more about family as my fathers mother daughter of William came to nz about 1860?i live in NZ Bill Wilson Tauranga
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My mother is disappointed about Brexit and wants to get an Irish passport. I was charged with finding and proving her grandparents were born in Ireland.
I did well on the maternal side, but found it hard on the paternal side. The folklore had been that he was an American from Virginia.
I just now discovered the existence of a place called Virginia in County Cavan. And then the pieces started to fall into place. From burial records, I could deduce her grandfather, Thomas Hall, was born in 1877 in Knocknaveagh near Virginia in County Cavan. His parents would have been William Hall and Mary Hall Whitley.
I look forward to any further insights on the Hall and Whitley families from the area.
Thank you.
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My mother is disappointed about Brexit and wants to get an Irish passport. I was charged with finding and proving her grandparents were born in Ireland.
I did well on the maternal side, but found it hard on the paternal side. The folklore had been that he was an American from Virginia.
I just now discovered the existence of a place called Virginia in County Cavan. And then the pieces started to fall into place. From burial records, I could deduce her grandfather, Thomas Hall, was born in 1877 in Knocknaveagh near Virginia in County Cavan. His parents would have been William Hall and Mary Hall Whitley.
I look forward to any further insights on the Hall and Whitley families from the area.
Thank you.
Oldcastle would be Registry Office..
Birth, Marriage and Death results for Hall of Oldcastle
Displaying results 1 - 48 of 48. irishgenealogy
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01je4/
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Name THOMAS HALL
Date of Birth 1877
Group Registration ID 11251862
SR District/Reg Area Oldcastle
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Surname N/R
here he is...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03008/2102636.pdf
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Thank you so much. My mother will be thrilled with this development. Thomas Hall's namesake, my mother's cousin, is currently in a Liverpool hospital recovering from surgery. They are the last two remaining Halls from the era.
I would love to arrange a trip to Virginia and Knocknaveagh for my mother, and her cousin Tom, if he is fit for a trip.
When is this famous Virginia Pumpkin festival? That would be a perfect time to visit. Her maternal side all hail from near Dundalk. Her grandparents would have met in Liverpool in the late 1890s or early 1900s.
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Seems to have been a death of a Thomas Hall, aged 8, in 1885, in the Oldcastle Civic Records list provided. One would assume this equates to the child born in 1877. I have my great grandfather, Thomas Hall. passing in 1920, aged 43. Born also in 1877. My link is perhaps more tenuous, i.e. that my great grandfather was said to have been from "Virginia". That was always assumed to have been the Commonwealth of Virginia in United States. We had never heard of Virginia in County Cavan and only this evening did I make that connection. More scratching around to be done and a visit to be planned in the year ahead, I think.
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Seems to have been a death of a Thomas Hall, aged 8, in 1885, in the Oldcastle Civic Records list provided. One would assume this equates to the child born in 1877. I have my great grandfather, Thomas Hall. passing in 1920, aged 43. Born also in 1877.
?
The Thomas I posted has the Parents you named!!
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You posted
"Thomas Hall, was born in 1877 in Knocknaveagh near Virginia in County Cavan. His parents would have been William Hall and Mary Hall Whitley......."
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Munterconnaught/Knocknaveigh/1052515/
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Munterconnaught/Knocknaveigh/1052507/
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Munterconnaught/Knocknaveagh/349839/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Munterconnaught/Knocknaveagh/349836/
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Hi - I have been to Knocknaveigh - I have a photo of the grave of William and Mary and their son James - unfortunately it is too large to attach but I can send to you by pm.
Erected by William Hall in loving memory of his wife Mary Hall who died 19 April 1919 aged 78 years and the above William Hall who fell asleep in Jesus 9 May 1926 aged 81 years .. James Hall died 19 Nov 1954 aged 70 years
I am descended from John Hall who is the brother of William and have a private tree on Ancestry which I am happy to share with you.
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Thank you, Hallmark and Kiwi Jennie. There is a lot to process.
Attached is a Jpeg of my great grandfather's internment date in 1920. He was 43 years old when he passed. When I discovered this, I was able to deduce that 1877 was his birth year. When I then learned earlier this week that there was a Virginia in Ireland, I found a Thomas Hall born in Cavan in 1877 in the Knocknaveagh hamlet near Virginia. That seems to add up. And the rumour he was an "American from Virginia" now seems to have been debunked.
One question I have is can I trust the LDS Family Search site with the accuracy of their information? This was the site I first stumbled on and that said Thomas Hall was born on April 24th, 1877. (Maria Hall seems to have been the same age. Perhaps they were twins or Irish twins?)
I am told my great grandmother worked as housekeeper at her local diocese. This probably meant she was a Roman Catholic. However, their three sons were named: Thomas, George, and John (my Grandfather), first names that fit with the male offspring name of the William Hall line from Knocknaveagh. I suppose it is possible Thomas Hall did not take his Church of Ireland associations with him to Liverpool and was content to have his children raised Catholics. (I know from my Irish history that the Ne Temere decreee from Rome has been a seismic issue for Protestant in Ireland. My late father was from Shandon district of Cork, so I am familiar with that dynamic.)
I will try to get my great grandparent marriage certificate from the Liverpool authorities. I can only assume there were married in Liverpool in the early 1900s. This should show Thomas Hall's place of birth. If it is Cavan, then that should seal it. Although I am not sure how to square the existence of the said Thomas Hall aged 8, who passed in 1885. Who were his parents? There seems to be a lot of Halls in that part of Ireland. I feel like I need to lay all the Halls from that era on to the kitchen table for clarity.
I do not have an account with this Ancestry organisation? Maybe I should get one. If it worthwhile?
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Thank you, Hallmark and Kiwi Jennie. There is a lot to process.
Attached is a Jpeg of my great grandfather's internment date in 1920. He was 43 years old when he passed. When I discovered this, I was able to deduce that 1877 was his birth year. When I then learned earlier this week that there was a Virginia in Ireland, I found a Thomas Hall born in Cavan in 1877 in the Knocknaveagh hamlet near Virginia. That seems to add up. And the rumour he was an "American from Virginia" now seems to have been debunked.
One question I have is can I trust the LDS Family Search site with the accuracy of their information? This was the site I first stumbled on and that said Thomas Hall was born on April 24th, 1877. (Maria Hall seems to have been the same age. Perhaps they were twins or Irish twins?)
I am told my great grandmother worked as housekeeper at her local diocese. This probably meant she was a Roman Catholic. However, their three sons were named: Thomas, George, and John (my Grandfather), first names that fit with the male offspring name of the William Hall line from Knocknaveagh. I suppose it is possible Thomas Hall did not take his Church of Ireland associations with him to Liverpool and was content to have his children raised Catholics. (I know from my Irish history that the Ne Temere decreee from Rome has been a seismic issue for Protestant in Ireland. My late father was from Shandon district of Cork, so I am familiar with that dynamic.)
I will try to get my great grandparent marriage certificate from the Liverpool authorities. I can only assume there were married in Liverpool in the early 1900s. This should show Thomas Hall's place of birth. If it is Cavan, then that should seal it. Although I am not sure how to square the existence of the said Thomas Hall aged 8, who passed in 1885. Who were his parents? There seems to be a lot of Halls in that part of Ireland. I feel like I need to lay all the Halls from that era on to the kitchen table for clarity.
I do not have an account with this Ancestry organisation? Maybe I should get one. If it worthwhile?
Why do you want to trust/distrust LDS when you have the actual State Registration entry with Image???
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"....not sure how to square the existence of the said Thomas Hall aged 8, who passed in 1885. Who were his parents?..."
What difference does it make when I've given you YOUR Thomas WITH CORRECT PARENTS??????????
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"...great grandmother worked as housekeeper at her local diocese. This probably meant she was a Roman Catholic..."
WHY?????
When Census shows their Religion!!!!!
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Hi
Mary and William stated at 1911 census that they had 10 children with 7 still living. Including Thomas I have only got 3 definitely dead at that date but with some of the other siblings whereabouts not known. Do you have names of the daughters - Maria and Harriet are family names I think. You are right to be wary of LDS as it is member input and there are some errors. William's brother John who came to NZ married a RC and they are buried in the presbyterian section of the cemetery. William's sister Maria went to USA with her husband William Nash - I'm not sure about her religion. Ancestry is a great tool. Your jpeg didn't load - I would love to see it. I will pm you my personal email.
Sorry if this is a little disjointed - heading out and wanted to reply - will look further tonight.
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Also Maria was born in 1875 - not 1877 8)
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May be of interest Probate of John Bertram died 1860 of Eighter, Virginia Co Cavan,his 2nd wife was Margaret Whitley,two daughters also mentions Charles Whitley of Eighter,Virginia.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/wr/details.jsp?id=IRE/ORIG/WILL/REG/25873/2
may be same Charles
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jec/
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Hi
This is what I have for the children of William Hall and Mary Whitley
1) John Hall
18701932
BIRTH 1 MAY 1870 Virginia, Cavan, Ireland
DEATH 5 AUG 1932 Knocknaveigh, County Cavan, Ireland
2) William Henry Hall
18711945
BIRTH 22 DEC 1871 Virginia, Cavan, Ireland
DEATH 5 MAR 1945 Rathmore Lodge, Kells Parish, Ireland
3) Charles Hall
18731911
BIRTH 15 OCT 1873 Knocknaveigh, Cavan, Ireland
DEATH BEFORE 1911 - not showing in 1901 or 1911 census - 1 of 3 children dead at 1911 census
4) Maria Harriett Hall married name McClintock
18751953
BIRTH 18 JUN 1875 Knocknaveagh, Cavan, Ireland
DEATH 28 OCT 1953 Belfast, Ireland
5) Thomas Hall
18771885
BIRTH 24 APR 1877 Cavan, Ireland
DEATH 25 FEB 1885 Oldcastle, Ireland - 2 of 3 children dead at 1911 census
6) George Whitley Hall
1879
BIRTH 6 FEB 1879 Cavan, Ireland
DEATH Unknown - alive at 1911 census - living with his family
7) Stephen Hall
18801885
BIRTH 4 DEC 1880 Knocknaveigh, Ireland
DEATH MAR 1885 Oldcastle, Ireland - 3 of 3 children dead at 1911 census - on same page of deaths as Thomas - perhaps died of the same thing
8) Elizabeth Jane (Lizzie) Hall
18821974
BIRTH 1 NOV 1882 Knocknaveigh, County Cavan, Ireland
DEATH 21 FEB 1974 Auckland, New Zealand
9) James Hall
18841954
BIRTH 30 SEP 1884 Oldcastle, Co Cavan, Ireland
DEATH 19 NOV 1954 Knocknaveagh, Cavan, Ireland
10) Margaret (Gretta) Hall married name Cassidy
1888
BIRTH 8 DEC 1888 Oldcastle, Co Cavan, Ireland
DEATH Unknown - alive at 1911 census.
Sorry looks like your Thomas doesn't belong to this family :'(
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So..... " the pieces started to fall into place. From burial records, I could deduce her grandfather, Thomas Hall, was born in 1877 in Knocknaveagh near Virginia in County Cavan. His parents would have been William Hall and Mary Hall Whitley.............."
is a red herring??
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I don't know - there is definitely something wrong - maybe the number of children stated at 1911 census is wrong. The Thomas that died as a child unfortunately has no image attached to the record so there is no way to definitely prove his parents but the burial record states his address as Knocknaveigh. Can you upload the burial record that shows parents of Thomas as William and Mary :D
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Image of
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03008/2102636.pdf
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.
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I think that is the birth record not the death one ::)
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I don;t have death one but there are obviously 2 Hall families in Knocknaveagh......
If the other person KNOWS the g/parents are correct and in Liverpool, then he isn't the one who died age 8 but so far they haven't confirmed their info is correct!!
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Year of Death 1885
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Oldcastle
Deceased Age at Death 8
Returns Year 1885
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 3
Returns Page No 256
No Image yet
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The marriage cert should help - there is only one Thomas Hall born in Oldcastle in 1877 - it is a possibility that the child that died may not have had his birth registered in Oldcastle ???
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There are 2 William Halls in Knocknaveagh so until other poster can confirm their info one is running around in circles
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The two Williams are cousins. One married Mary Whitley and the other married Ellen Bower. I have only been able to find one child for William and Ellen - her name is Maria. Although she is born in Dec 1874 her birth is registered in 1875. William and Mary also have a daughter in 1875 called Mary. It is possible that William and Ellen have a son called Thomas - just haven't been able to find any record to date ... hope this is helping you Davy ...
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Davy needs to come back with some info.....
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Thanks for the great leg work, Hallmark and Kiwi Jennie.
As I said earlier, I made a tenuous connection to County Cavan because my great grandfather, Thomas Hall, had been rumoured to have come from Virginia. The family had all assumed this was the Commonwealth of Virginia in the United States. I recently discovered verifiable proof of his age at the time of his burial in Liverpool. He was interned on March 18th, 1920, aged 43. This means he was likely born in 1877 or 1878. The first internet search I did with a focus on County Cavan revealed the LDS site, which showed a Thomas Hall born on April 24th, 1877, born to William Hall and Mary Whitney, in placed called Knocknaveagh. A google showed of Knocknaveagh showed it close to Virginia. It all seemed to add up. Other incidental facts seemed to loosely corroborate this. Thomas Hall had four children we know of. Thomas, George, John (my grandfather born in 1907) and Mary (who passed as a 6 month old in 1916), all first names common in the William and Mary family tree.
I remained cautious, however, because before hearing of this place Virginia, Cavan, I had initially been looking for a Thomas Hall in England and in Virginia, USA. There were scores of them in 1877-78. I was also cautious because when looking for Thomas Hall's wife, my maternal great grandmother, there were scores of Coburns in the Dundalk area.
My first doubt came when I discovered the death certificate (but no image) of a Thomas Hall, aged 8, in the oldcastle registry. My second doubt came I realised the Thomas Hall born on April 24th, 1877 was to a Church of Ireland family. I know for a fact that my maternal great grandmother from Dundalk and who lived into her 90s had been a Roman Catholic. Thomas Hall was ultimately buried in a Catholic grave. He could have converted or his faith could have been irrelevant to him, but I know that the time Liverpool was horribly divided on sectarian lines. It was possible he met an Ulster woman of another faith and allowed the children to be Catholics, but I suspect this would have been a difficult business at that time.
I am trying to get the marriage certificate of my great grandparents, from the Liverpool registry. It is difficult because I do not have a definite year. I can only guess they were married between 1895 and 1905. There is also no proof there were married in Liverpool. If I do get this document, it should note the place and county of Thomas Hall's birth.
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Good luck in finding the marriage certificate 8)