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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hertfordshire Lookup Requests => Hertfordshire => England => Herts Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Pialba on Sunday 15 May 05 23:14 BST (UK)
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Looking for clues on a William and Charlotte Carter nee Curtis who are proving to be rather elusive to say the least. I have them on the 1871 census at Writtle in Essex, children at that time was Jessie, Charlotte and William. I know they moved to Hertfordshire at some time, but don't know when.
Their son William [William Joseph Curtis Carter to give his full name], married Maria Ridgway nee Atkins, and they have proven to be as equally elusive. I can't find either on the 1881 census but did find William and Maria on the 1891, they were at , well I'm not sure, but the civil parish of St Peter mun. borough St Albans, and their children were Charlotte, William,Percy, Mabel, John and Jane.. When William married Maria, he was a police officer, but in 1891 he was a blacksmith. My uncle, Robert, was born in 1892, and I believe Maria left William and was living with another man and had living with her on the 1901 census Mabel, Jane, Robert, Annie , Jessie and Fred.
I have no idea what happened ot William Joseph.
Twiggy
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With a fairly common name like Carter, we really need where & when born to act as a filter. Can you supply any (eg as given in the 1871) please?
regards
Doreen
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Hi Doreen,
Well, I haven't got a lot on the Carter family. I haven mention of them on the 1861 Census. At that time, they weree in Writtle, Essex, the family was William, 43, Beer house Keeper, born in Derby,Charlotte,39 [I think], born in Norfolk, can't figure the place, Jessie, 6, born Berkshire, Charlotte 5 born Writtle, and William 1 born Writtle.
The next finding I have of them is on the 1891 census, and William, the son was married, He was 28 and a blacksmith, his wife was Maria 33, born Abbotrs Langley, the children were Charlotte,8, born A. L., William7, born Kempton ?,Percy, 3, born London, Mabel,3 born London, John 1 born A.L. and Jane 1 born A.L.
I did find Maria on the 1881 census, she was a widow, she had married ?Ridgeway, and was a nurse in London, no sign of William. On the Marriage Certificate I have of William and Maria married in 1883, and at the time William was a Policeman, they married at Watford in Hertford.
I have the birth certificate of William, he was born 19/4/1860 mother Charlotte nee Curtis, and father William Beerhouse keeper. I haven't been able to find the marriage of William and Charlotte, and I haven't found them on any other census, so I don't know what other family memebers there were.
Oh I did find Maria on the 1901 census, she had left William and and 3 other children by another man, the children took the Carter name.
The son Robert born 1892 married my aunt Alice.
Twiggy
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I had a look on the 1861 Writtle, and I think Charlotte (Curtis) was born in Maundsley, Norfolk. Jessie was born Warfield, Berks. Odd that Jessie was named before Charlotte when I normally expect the first-born to take the mother's name.
I found them in 1881
Bowling Alley (Woodmans Arms)
Harpenden, Hertfordshire
RG11/1429 Folio 67 Page 8
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William CARTER M 63 M Middlesex, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Gardener And Publican (N D)
Charlotte CARTER M 49 F Cromer, Norfolk, England
Rel: Wife
Occ: Publicans Wife
George CARTER U 19 M Enfield, Essex, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Carpenter
Ellen CARTER 16 F Enfield, Essex, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Henrietta CARTER 9 F Harpenden, Hertford, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
I also found in the IGI batches C072402 & C072404
ROBERT HENRY JOSEPH CURTIS CARTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 26 JUL 1870 Harpenden, Hertford, England
ELLEN CHARLOTTE CARTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 11 JUL 1866 Harpenden, Hertford, England
HENRIETTA CHARLOTTE CURTIS <CARTER> - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 30 JAN 1880 Harpenden, Hertford, England
So, they were in Harpenden in 1871 and perhaps sks could take a look for them there, it probably wasn't too big at that time.
No luck with William Joseph though.
regards
Doreen
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Here's 1871
RG10/1376 66 11
CARTER William J H M - brewer's lab - Middx Stoke Newington
CARTER Charlotte W M 39 - Norfolk, Cromer
CARTER William J C son 9 - scholar - Essex Writtle
CARTER Charles G C son 8 - scholar - ditto
CARTER Ellen C C dau 6 - scholar - Middx Enfield
Address: Bowling Alley (Woodman), Harpenden, Herts
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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From FreeBMD, Robert Henry died aged 1, Sep 1870 St Albans 3a/255
Henrietta Charlote born Mar 1872 St Albans 3a/375
regards
Doreen
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Thank you everyone for the info you have sent. I had found that family on the 1881 census but wasn't sure if it was the same one I am looking for, because there was no mention of any of the children on the 1861 census, but looking at that I can see why.
I do appreciate the help.
Twiggy
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I have just found this site and the postings about William Carter. William Carter was my 3x Great Grandfather, his son William Joseph Curtis Carter (WJCC) being my 2x Great Grandfather.
I don't know a great deal about William senior, but William J C Carter appears to be missing from both the 1901 and 1911 census. I have however found his Wife Maria Carter residing in Abbots Langley with their children, on both occasions as head of the family.
Unfortunately WJCC suffered a tragic death on 18th April 1934 when he fell into the road at dusk and was stuck by a passing car in St Albans Road, Garston. The report of his death and the subsequent coroners inquest were reported in the Watford Observer newspaper at the time. The inquest heard from his daughter Jane Wallington (b1890 Abbots Langley) that she didn't really know her father and that she had last seen him 12 month before the accident, but did not speak to him at the time. The court heard at the inquest that he had no home, but was a well known in the Watford district and was a pedlar of bootlaces.
His wife Maria Carter pre-deceased him by one year, dying at Watford Peace Memorial Hospital, now Watford General Hospital on 5th May 1933, from complications surrounding diabetes.
I would really like to know where William was between the 1891 census and his death in 1934. My feeling is that he didn't go too far from the Abbots Langley and Watford areas and if you look at the map Garston is just north of Watford and a little East of Abbots Langley. His daughter Jane was living at 32 Adian Road, Abbots Langley. At the time of her death Maria Carter lived at 20 Adrian Road.
If he had been consigned to the Watford Union, I would have expected to have found him on the 1901 & 1911 census returns, so Where was he and what was he doing in all those years?
AR
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Hi Andy
A warm welcome to RootsChat, unfortunately Twiggy hasn't logged in since 2007 but if her e-mail is still active she should have notification of your post.
I have tried to find your WJC Carter in the census after 1891 but to no avail.
When reading the inquest report for William's death in Garston I immediately had visions of an old soldier selling bootlaces, something from my youth in Watford I suspect. :)
I don't know if this would be any help but I had a look on FindMyPast for any Military records & there are 2 showing for a WJC Carter during the Boer War. One for the Essex Regiment & one for the City of London Imperial Volunteers.
Could be worth you trying the Military route as that would certainly account for him not showing in the census.
Maddie
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Hello Maddie,
Thanks for the swift reply and the useful thought about the Boer War. You had the same idea as me, of an old soldier in the High Street selling bootlaces etc, which could well be true if the Boer War link has some substance.
I had a very quick look at your suggestion of WJC Carter in the Boer War records and this is something that I will have to investigate further when I can spare the time. Unfortunately I haven't continued with my family history study in the last couple of years, it was only an enquiry of my family Tree on Genes Reunited that got me thinking about it again last week. I am however now busy with Open University study and my next module is due to begin in the next couple of weeks which means I am going to be rather busy for the next few months.
I will post any useful information I uncover with the lead you have given me.
Cheers
Andy
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Hi Andy
Good luck with your OU module & I would be interested to hear if you do discover anything concerning WJCC & the Boer War.
If you need any other help at any time just post, we are happy to help if at all possible. :)
Regards
Maddie
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Hi Andy
I think the military for WJCC is the way to go. :D
Just looked at the Chelsea Pensioner records & there is a William Joseph Curtis Carter born 1859, it says Harpenden Herts but perhaps that's just the info he gave. I can only see one William Joseph Curtis Carter birth registered on Free BMD. :-\
Hope he is yours.
Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
Many thanks for giving me the hint about the Chelsea Pensioners records. I paid up to have a look at the records via Find My Past. It looks as if WJC Carter signed up to the military in March 1880 for a period, but was discharged just over 12 months later having been found unfit for further service. Possibly because he had a record of drunkeness and fighting :-[
It still doesn't answer the question, whee he was during the 1901 & 1911 census and beyond, but it does add more to the family history file.
Cheers
Andy
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Hi Andy
Your surname and Carter are fairly common regarding Croxley Paper Mill (Croxley Script).
Do you have those links in your family?
Ray
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Hi Andy
Your surname and Carter are fairly common regarding Croxley Paper Mill (Croxley Script).
Do you have those links in your family?
Ray
Hi Ray,
The simple answer to your question is yes, very much so. From what I know, especially of the Raggett's at least 3 generations, possuilby more worked at the mills during the 19th century and the early part of the 20th Century.
Further back in the family tree, George Durrant worked at the mill. His daughter, Mary Ann, married my Gt, Gt Grandfather William Fortnum Raggett. Back even further George Durrant's father in law, William Fowler worked in the mills too.
There were many Raggett's connected to the mills at Croxley, too many to count. I have been told Henry Odo Raggett moved to Bristol to work as a paper salesman for Dickinson's.
Regards
Andy
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Hi Andy
Pleased to hear I helped a little with WJC, pity it didn't help with where he was in the census....... :-\
I see Ray has brought up the subject of Croxley Paper Mill, I too have connections to the Mill through my family & have a book with a lot of info in it with regard to the Mill & many of the workers, unfortunately I'm not at home at the moment but when I get back next week I can check out some of the names you mention.
Will also have another go at trying to find WJC, wonder if he was "helping the police with their enquiries at all". :)
Maddie
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I see Ray has brought up the subject of Croxley Paper Mill, I too have connections to the Mill through my family & have a book with a lot of info in it with regard to the Mill & many of the workers, unfortunately I'm not at home at the moment but when I get back next week I can check out some of the names you mention.
Will also have another go at trying to find WJC, wonder if he was "helping the police with their enquiries at all". :)
Hi Maddie,
You may have the same book as me. The Endless Web by Joan Evans. The history of John Dickinson & Co 1804-1954. It was recomended to me quite some time ago now and I was lucky to pick up a copy in Norfolk, courtesy of my Father.
I've not read the book in depth, but have looked at the indexes at the rear which gives names of workers from the census of the time, including my forebears.
"Helping police with their enquiries"? now that is a worrying but interesting thought.
I have just re-newed my readers pass to Hertfordshire Archives at Hertford Town Hall. I thought I might go there early next week, with a view to looking through the electoral registers uo to 1934, to see if I can spot him listed and narrow down his whereabouts.
Andy
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Hi Andy
We do indeed have the same book. :) I've read some of it & find the old photos fascinating, some are of the time when my Aunt worked there as did my Dad, Grandfather, Grt Grandfather & Grt Uncle to mention but a few. ;)
A good idea to have a look through the electoral rolls, all though, if he was of no fixed abode he may not show on them. :-\
Sorry about the mention of the police, it was just a thought I had, :) He should still be on the census though..............
Maddie
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Hi
I'll mention it in case it matters another time . . . . .
I believe a William Carter was the Headmaster (at changeover) of the school which became Watford Boys Grammar School.
(with any luck, making the comment may trigger something :) )
Ray
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Hi Andy
A good idea to have a look through the electoral rolls, all though, if he was of no fixed abode he may not show on them. :-\
Sorry about the mention of the police, it was just a thought I had, :) He should still be on the census though..............
Maddie
Hi Maddie,
Don't be sorry about the mentioning the police, it is an interesting lead. Besides if he did end up "helping them with their enquiries" that is history and nothing can be done to change it.
I am surprised to have read in the past of some people feeling ashamed that their ancestors couldn't read or write. As it would appear that quite a few of my forebears on the Brinklow side were agricultural labourers, it go's that they probably were illiterate and really shouldn't come as too much of a shock.
With regard to having a look at the electoral registers. I am sure WJC Carter must have been somewhere between 1900 and his death in 1934. So what I propose to do is pick a few years pre WW1 and may be some years in the mid 20s to see if I can find him anywhere, and then see what pops up. The one place that he might appear in is the Watford Union.
Andy
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Hi
I'll mention it in case it matters another time . . . . .
I believe a William Carter was the Headmaster (at changeover) of the school which became Watford Boys Grammar School.
(with any luck, making the comment may trigger something :) )
Ray
Ok, thanks Ray, worth remembering.
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Hello,
I'm not sure if this is still active....
I am descended from William Carter from both his daughters Hannah Cecilia Charlotte Curtis Carter (b. 1857 and appearing in the census most often as 'Charlotte Carter') and her sister Jessie Maria Charlotte Curtis Carter.
I too have never been able to find a birth record for William, nor a marriage with Charlotte Carter. Hannah Cecilia Charlotte also disappears from the 1891 and 1901 census, having married a Joshua Wheeler in 1878. She then reappears in 1911 in Wales with two sons Harry and Edwin and a second husband Alfred Ernest Wheeler (of whom I can find nothing). I cannot find any birth records for Harry or Edwin.
Any help or further information would be super.
Matthew
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Hi Matthew
A warm welcome to RootsChat. :D
Unfortunately neither of the previous posters have been on line for a while but if their e-mails are still active they should get notification of your post.
In the meantime I will try & help if I can. :)
Have you found Joshua in the 1911 census in Lancashire, I'm assuming he is the one born Harpenden c1849 & also do you have info for the children born to Joshua & Charlotte. I ask only because I don't know what info you already have for the family, I can then concentrate on looking for Charlotte's missing years. :)
Maddie
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Maddie,
Thanks so much for your reply. I hadn't actually looked for Joshua on the 1911 census (which I don't have full access too...). As Hannah Cecilia Charlotte remarried in 1907 to Alfred Ernest Wheeler I assumed he had died. How interesting.
On the 1881 census Charlotte and Joshua (listed as Josiah) have two children; Alice and George William. In 1911 Hannah Charlotte Cecilia has two children; Edwin and Harry (from whom I descend) both born in the mid-1890s and listed as Alfred Ernest's step-sons.
I'm wondering at the moment what happened between Hannah Cecilia Charlotte and Joshua and whether he is the father of Edwin and Harry. Also I wonder what relation Alfred Ernest was to Joshua. I see from an 1884 newspaper article that Joshua went to court accused of trying to kill Hannah Cecilia Charlotte whilst they were living in Wheathampstead!
Any light you could shed would be great!
Matthew
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Hi Matthew
I had a look at the newspaper report on Joshua, well I never, he doesn't appear to have been sentenced to any prison time but I wonder if the couple did separate after this incident. :-\ He is single & in Salford Workhouse in the last census so they certainly split sometime. His age is slightly out being born c1844 but Harpenden seems correct. Looking at Free BMD his death looks to be registered Sept qtr 1915 Prestwich.
Do you have Charlotte's marriage cert to Alfred, I wonder if she is a "widow" on it, I can't see a divorce for her & Joshua so it looks like she may have been telling porkies. ???
Their daughter, Alice Martha Charlotte baptised 30 Jan 1880 at Harpenden is a servant on the 1891 in the household of George Holderness at St Peters Street, St Peters, St Albans. On March 1st 1909 she marries Robert Benjamin Simmons in Paddington, naming her father as Joshua a Bricklayer.
Son George aged 12 & born Harpenden, is in Watford Union Workhouse in 1891 but there is also a Henry Wheeler with him, aged 9 & born Middlesex, wonder if he is another son or just a coincidence that they are together. :-\ In 1901 George appears to be in the Royal Navy & stationed at Sheerness.
At the mo Joshua & Charlotte are eluding me after 1881 until 1911 but I shall keep digging. I have a feeling Charlotte could well be living under a different name. A strange coincidence that she should marry another Wheeler who at present doesn't seem to be connected to Joshua as Alfred was born Surrey, well according to the census any way. :D
Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
Thanks for all that ! I don't have the marriage certificate for Alfred Ernest and Charlotte - it would be interesting to see on it where she was living and indeed if she was a 'widow'.
I found an army service record for Joshua before his 1878 marriage to Charlotte. He was discharged because of a hernia, but perhaps he joined again later????
In the family it was said that the father of Charlotte's sons Edwin & Harry was a minister named 'George Williams' and that they were born in Bermondsey, but I've never found ant evidence for that. Harry went on to marry the grand-daughter of Charlotte's sister Jessica. Charlotte dies in 1916 in London whilst Harry was fighting in France.
There are a number of births for a Harry Wheeler (always known as Frederick Harry) around 1898 in London, but I've no way of knowing if it's him.
Well, thanks again !
Matthew
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Hi Matthew
I did find Joshua's Military info prior to his marriage but I can't see any other records for him. From the census Edwin & Harry were born in Summerstown, I'm guessing that's the Wandsworth one. :-\
I shall keep looking in the hope that either Joshua or Charlotte might turn up. :)
Maddie
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Hi
Odd thoughts:-
* Alfred Ernest married as "Ernest Alfred"
* After being the subject of an assault, why wouldn't "she" run away and hide?
?The clue may be that the 3 of them were together. Edwin, Harry, "Mother"
?Problem could also be that Harry was regd Edward Harry etc., etc.,
The really odd thoughts I have removed. :-D
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Hi Ray
Many thanks for your interest. :)
Sorry you have lost me, who is Robert & Maria, am I missing something. :-X
Yes I also noticed Alfred was Ernest Alfred on the marriage record from Free BMD & I'm sure you are correct about Charlotte, Edwin & Harry being together in 1901 it's just finding them. ???
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
Comes of doing two things at once.
I've removed R&M from thoughts.
:-(
Ray
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I've been doing a bit more digging on William Carter and have been able to find a few more details.
In 1881 he has left Writtle, Chelmsford and has moved to Bowling Alley, Harpenden, Herts. where he is the landlord of the Woodman's Arms. He is there together with his wife Charlotte (nee Curtis) and his children George, Ellen and Henrietta. Interesting on the same street we find his daughter (Hannah Cecilia) Charlotte living a few doors down with her husband Joshua and children Alice and George.
I have now found baptismal records for Hannah Charlotte Cecilia and Jessie Maria Charlotte. They were both baptised at St. John's, Wapping on January 7th 1859 and their parents William and Charlotte are living at 4 Little Hermitae Street. In the 1861 census they are all in Writtle, Essex.
I also managed to find a record of the birth of their daughter Ellen Charlotte Curtis Carter on 30th January 1865. By this point the family are back in London and living at 22 Medcalf Rd, Enfield and William is described as a 'fund holder'. By 1871 William and Charlotte, together with their children William, Charles and Ellen are in Harpenden. Their daughter (Hannah Cecilia) Charlotte Carter appears as a domestic servant at Hatching Green, Harpenden.
So, a few more facts. The family seems to have moved a lot. Yet with William living on the same street as Charlotte's future husband and his family one can see how they met. Still nothing on Charlotte past 1881 I'm afraid. I'll need to get that marriage certificate .... Hannah C Charlotte's son Harry was in the Welsh Regiment, his record hasn't survived except a medal card but perhaps I could try the regimental museum.
Matthew
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Hi Matthew
Many thanks for the added info, it all helps to build up a picture & hopefully succeed in finding Charlotte & her boys.
I don't know if this is correct & probably the only way to be sure is to get that marriage cert but from the census Ernest Alfred was born c1877 in Surrey so I wonder if he is the son of Arthur & Emmaline Wheeler born Worplesdon Surrey & baptised 28th April 1878. :-\
Do you know what happened to Ernest after Charlotte's death which I see was registered in Wandsworth.
Will be back later. :)
Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
I remember seeing on the 1919 wedding certificate of Harry that Alfred was deceased by 1919. Other than that I don't know anything about him - to be honest he was never mentioned at all in the family, unlike Hannah C Charlotte.
Charlotte's death was always a bit of a 'did she fall or was she pushed' story in the family. Perhaps she was in London and visiting or living with her daughter Alice .... Another certificate to get hold of!
Thanks for all your help!
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Hi Matthew
I've been digging around some of the family members to see if Charlotte was with them & have checked her sister Jessie Munt formerly McCulloch nee Carter & she doesn't appear with this family in the census. I've also found Charlotte's daughter Alice & husband Robert Benjamin at 70 Woodchester Street Paddington in 1914, at least I have found Robert as Alice would not have been registered any way. If you have Ancestry Robert Benjamin's Service record is there & apparently in 1915 Alice contacted his regiment for compulsory support as he had deserted her. Sadly there is a following letter regarding the support that was to be paid from the 1st Jan 1916 to say that it would be stopped as Mrs Simmons had died. :o
Free BMD as her death as March qtr 1916 Marylebone so it would seem that Charlotte wasn't visiting her daughter in 1915 unless she had been taken ill & was in hospital. :-\
Maddie
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Hi Matthew
A quick question, did Frederick Harry die in 1981, Bristol & Avon district with a birth date of 3rd May 1897 & do you have any info on his brother Edwin at all.
Also my apologies, I said Charlotte died Wandsworth in a previous post, I think I must have looked quickly at the record above her whilst typing, ::) it was actually Chelsea, wasn't it. :) So maybe she had been with daughter Alice before they both died in 1916.
Maddie
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Yes, that's Fredrick Harry. I've tried to look for probable matches with the FreeBMD for his birth but without actually buying the certificates of likely matches it seems impossible to tell which Harry Wheeler or Fredrick Wheeler is he.
The only thing I heard of Edwin is that he died in the 1914 war. There seem to be quite a few Edwin Wheelers who fell, but again hard to tell which is our Edwin Wheeler.....
Odd that Alice and Charlotte should both die in 1916. I wonder if there was a connexion ....
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Thank you Matthew, shame it hasn't helped. :-\ It's unbelievable, we have a name or names, a birth date, a rough area of Wandsworth if the boys were born in Summerstown as Charlotte says they were & yet there is nothing to pick up on. ??? Makes you wonder if they were ever registered.
Regarding Edwin & his dying in WW1 there is only one that could be him on CWGC as the others are not of the correct age & do seem to have extra info. Edwin George Wheeler of the Royal Warwickshire Reg died 25/4/1915, no age given for him but I have found that he was living in Birmingham at Balsall Heath when he signed up.
I agree it is a strange coincidence that Charlotte & her daughter Alice both died in 1916.
Have you found the deaths of William & Charlotte Carter nee Curtis. If not William died 19th August 1900 of Lillian Road, Barnes Surrey & Charlotte died 16 April 1903 of East Molesey Surrey, both are on the National Probate Calender.
I tried to find them in 1891 to see if daughter Charlotte was with them but the only family I could find who could be them are a George W Carter aged 74 a Florist born Islington, wife Emma aged 59 a Milliner born Sheringham Norfolk & a daughter aged 19 with just the initial H (Henriette) born Herts. They are living in Barnes Surrey. ??? :-\ Talk about confusing.......
By the way, still no sign of Charlotte. ::)
Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
I was able to look at Robert B. Simmon's army record yesterday at the library. Gosh, what a mess it all was. I see that after Alice had been abandoned by him and began to suffer from TB (c. 1915) she went to live with her grandmother in Harrington Street. As both her grandmothers were dead by then I've no idea who this could be.
I was also able to speak with Frederick Harry's daughter yesterday. She showed me a book given to him by Hannah Cecilia Charlotte in 1906 which she inscribed 'to Freddey Wheeler'. I was also told that when Frederick Harry was very young (about the time this book had been given) he was made to choose as to whether he would live with his mother or father. As Hannah Cecilia Charlotte married Alfred Ernest in 1907 I can only guess that HCC broke with FH's father shortly before marrying Alfred Ernest. Interestingly HCC calls FH 'Wheeler' before her second Wheeler marriage. Yet FH's daughter said he always spoke of his father as being an Anglican minister called George Williams .....
All very confusing ! But there's nothing like a mystery !
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Hi Matthew
I hadn't actually read all of Simmons records until today, oh my goodness poor Alice, how sad for her. :'(
Have looked at the Electoral Rolls for Harrington Street but unfortunately the nearest I can find is 1911 when a William Wretham & a Hermann Stanzleit were in occupancy, there's nothing for the war years & of course no females were on the rolls any way. I wonder if Alice's grandmother as mentioned in Simmons records could actually have been her mother who had moved to London to look after her when she had to leave the Warwick. :-\
Surely if FH & Edwin had had an Anglican Minister for a father they must have been registered at birth & you would think christened. ???
As you say, it is all very puzzling & I love a good mystery. :D
Next step is to try & find the elusive "George Williams".
Maddie
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Just thinking about Harrington Street and HCC Wheeler living there - it's in / near an area called Somers Town - I wonder if this is the 'Summerstown' mentioned on the 1911 census as FH's birthplace rather than the actual 'Summerstown' in south London???
I've ordered HCC's 1907 marriage certificate so hopefully that will shed some light!
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Hi Matthew
Now that is a point you have there, Somers Town is a 9 minute walk away from Harrington Street according to Google maps. :) Could be an interesting piece of info.
I was thinking about the reverend George Williams & wonder if he actually came from Wales which is why Charlotte is in Wales for her marriage in 1907. Williams is a Welsh name isn't it. I haven't yet found a clergyman that fits on any census apart from one in Sheffield but he does seem to have lived in Sheffield for a long time as he has children born there. ???
Be interesting to see what the marriage cert has to say.
Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
I've just got the marriage certificate. Both Ernest Alfred and Hannah Cecilia are living at 1 Mountjoy Street, Newport in 1907. Her father, William Carter (deceased) is 'of independent means'. She is described as a widow.
Ernest Alfred gives his age as 38 years old and his father as Arthur Wheeler, a general labourer.
So, some information which may shed more light. Let's see if it brings anything up.
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Hi Matthew
Doesn't get any easier, does it. :D
So, Charlotte did say she was a widow, well, perhaps after 20 odd years of being separated from Joshua she had the right..... :P
It's certainly looking like Ernest/Alfred was the son of Arthur & Emmeline Wheeler baptised 28th April 1878 Worplesden Guildford Surrey. He is with his parents & siblings in 1891 still living in Worplesden next door to the Ship Inn, his father Arthur is a Labourer.
I have found a little more for Ernest, (looking like you need another trip to the library or a few credits ;) ) he joined the Queens RSW Regiment in Oct 1896 but was discharged for misconduct in Dec 1896, being drunk & disorderly. ;D
Then he tried the Royal Artillery in 1898 but was again discharged in 1899, I think it was for not declaring his previous service history. ::)
I can't find him after 1891 in the census until 1911 & neither himself or Charlotte were at 1 Mountjoy Street Newport in 1901.
I'm pretty sure he died in Guildford reg district September qtr 1928 aged 50.
I shall keep digging. :)
Maddie
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Hi Matthew
I have found something which sounds impossible but felt it was worth mentioning if only to rule people out of this mystery.
In 1891 & 1901 there is a George M Williams who is the Clerk in Holy Orders at the Church of St Madoc in Llanbadoc, he is also the rector of Llanowell, living at the rectory Llanowell. From what I can gather he is an Anglican Minister. He was the Vicar at St Madoc from 1883.
George was born in 1853 Clapham Surrey & his full name was George Micaiah Williams, his father was George Walter Williams a Colonel +CB in the Indian Army. The strange thing is that George M married a Laura Gustard in July 1888 at Llanbadoc, Laura was a Minor at marriage & born 1870 in Usk. They had one daughter Dorothy Lucy born December 1892 in Llanllowell. Next they are in Bridgenorth Shropshire & he is the Vicar at St Peter's in Chelmarsh.
George died in 1929 Bridgenorth, I can't pick up on Laura's death but daughter Dorothy Lucy also died in Bridgenorth 1979, she never married.
I can't imagine that this George Williams could have anything to do with your Charlotte & her boys but there is the fact that he lived in Monmouthshire, was a Vicar & quite possibly an Anglican one at that. ???
What do you make of it all, could it be feasible that Charlotte was in Wales for any length of time before she married Ernest/Alfred.
Be interested in your thoughts.
Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
I'm not if Charlotte was in Wales before her son Harry's birth - he was said to be born in Bermondsey you see - and with him and Edwin listed in 1911 with London birthplaces in the 1890s .... I think she probably went to Wales with Alfred Ernest Wheeler.
It seems very odd to me that Joshua and Charlotte are both absent from the 1891 census and there's no trace of them in 1901 either; nor of Harry and Edwin. The only record I have of Edwin anywhere is the 1911 census. His niece tells me he was always called Ted - so I wonder if he was really Edward???
I also can't find the original William Carter in 1891 and haven't found a marriage for him and Charlotte Curtis either.....
I think a new step might be for me to get Charlotte's death certificate from 1916 in London - Alice was there that year and died there, but I wonder if there was another reason she was there.
I'm beginning to think this particular group of the family gathered round on census night and thought it might be fun to confuse their descendants a hundred years hence ....
I'll keep searching - they must have been somewhere!
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Hi Matthew
This really is a puzzle which is why I am looking at all angels in the hope that something will drop into place. :-\
I'm amazed that we can't find any of them in 1891 or 1901, I still haven't found Ernest/Alfred in 1901. I think you are right in thinking they all hid from the census enumerator. :D
The only possible sighting of William Carter & wife Charlotte in 1891 is the one I spoke of before although their names are wrong but ages & birth places are near enough.
George W Carter aged 74 born London Islington
Emma Carter aged 59 born Sheringham Norfolk (a stones throw from Cromer)
H Carter daughter aged 19 born Herts (just an initial no first name)
They are living at White Lodge Terrace Barnes Surrey & Barnes is where William died, Charlotte is with her daughter Jessie in 1901 in Barnes, a widow. ???
I also cannot find a marriage for William & Charlotte but did they ever marry, is that perhaps why all the children have the Curtis name as well as Carter. As William was born in 1818 he could well have been married before he met Charlotte & they had Jessie in 1855.
There is a marriage record on Free BMD in June qtr 1857 St Giles that does include a Charlotte Curtis & a JAMES Carter but unfortunately I can only find it on Free BMD, nothing on Ancestry to see which groom married which bride. Strange thing is William is William J Carter on the 1871 in Harpenden. ::)
I don't know if Charlotte's death cert will help in any of this but I'm sure it's worth getting if only to find where she was & perhaps why.
I am puzzled over the fact that Harry was asked if he wanted to go live with his father before Charlotte married Ernest/Alfred, that is strange. Obviously Charlotte was never married to George Williams or the boys would have that surname which is another odd aspect with George being an Anglican Vicar surely he would not be living with someone who wasn't his wife or not be married to the mother of his children, unless there was a reason that prevented this happening. :-\
All very peculiar but intriguing. There must be an answer out there somewhere. :)
Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
I received today the death certificate of Hannah CC Wheeler. She died of uterine cancer in a cancer hospital in Chelsea. She was living at 10 Holly Road, Chiswick and is described as the widow of Joshua Wheeler. EA Wheeler was evidently off the scene by then.... Her sister Jessica was present at her death.
I think the mystery of Edwin and Harry's father is going to continue!
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Hi Matthew
The mystery deepens, how strange that Charlotte is described as the widow of Joshua & not Ernest. :o. It's as if the marriage in Wales didn't exist. :-\ All very peculiar & looking like there is more to be discovered if we can find it. ??? I wonder when she returned to London.?
Intrigued, Maddie
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Hi Maddie,
More mystery! I've found a record for a marriage between Charlotte Wheeler and a Stephen Chapman in Islington in 1891. She is listed as a widow, her father is William Carter, a shop keep and her address 35 North Street, Islington. The witnesses to the marriage are George and Jessie Munt, so it's certainly her. Stephen Chapman, born c. 1863, is a miner and living at 27 Wharfdale Road.
They're together in the 1891 census at Wharfdale Road, Hannah Charlotte is listed as 'Anna' and her birthplace Writtle, Essex. They have a daughter, Emily Cecilia, born in 1886. I presume Emily is also Hannah Charlotte Cecilia's daughter but can't be sure.
I'd hoped that this would finally solve the riddle of Harry and Edwin's father but .... there's also a marriage for Stephen Chapman in 1892 in Tottenham with all the same details at the man who married HCC - 28, father Stephen Chapman, occupation miner.
Still no joy on finding HCC, Harry or Edwin in 1901, or indeed Stephen Chapman.
So, it gets even more mysterious - HCC seems to have married twice whilst her first husband was still alive, and the first of those bigamous marriages lasting only a year. Odd too that Jessie Munt was a witness to the Chapman wedding, but when she informed for HCC's death certificate she states Charlotte is the widow of Joshua Wheeler, not Chapman or EA Wheeler!
I'll keep trying to find them in 1901. And maybe see if Charlotte's address on the 1891 marriage entry is where we find William Carter & family ....
What complicated lives these people had!!!!
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Ye gods & little fishes Matthew, what a complicated life your lady lived, how did she do that. :o
Well done for finding that marriage, well, I think so any way. ;) I shall be back when I have had chance to look at this new evidence.
Maddie :)
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Hi Matthew
I have found the 2 marriages & have to say that it seems impossible it can be the same Stephen Chapman on both & as there are 2 chaps of the same name born in Cambridgeshire c1863 with a father Stephen I have tried to distinguish between them both. The Stephen who married Charlotte appears to be the son of Stephen & Emma whereas the other has a mother Martha. They both work on the railway but only your one is listed as a Minor, the other one is a Clerk. From the 1881 Stephen (Minor) is living in Warlingham Surrey with an aunt & uncle & the other one is in Oxted Surrey. From the 1891 the one in Oxted in 1881 seems to be in St Pancras workhouse. Hope I haven't confused you. :D It is looking as if it is the same Stephen who married Sarah Footitt but how. :o The marriage to Charlotte can't have been annulled surely & even if it had from what I have read it didn't give either party the right to remarry any way.
Like yourself I cannot find Stephen & Sarah on the 1901 so have they fled the country I wonder. :-\ Strange thing, I was looking for any Stephen Chapman on Ancestry & as at the moment there is free access to all their records a Stephen Chapman turned up in the Australian Electoral Rolls for 1909 in Victoria in a place called Clementston, sub division of Allendale & he was a Minor, must be a coincidence surely. ???
The daughter of Stephen & Charlotte was registered in Edmonton district 1st qtr 1886 with the name Emily Cecilia C Chapman so I'm guessing she is Charlotte's daughter but born before the marriage. I don't think I have ever come across such a complicated web before. :)
No sign of Emily in 1901 but she is in the next census born Tottenham & living in Kensington. Let me know if you can't find her.
Going back to Charlotte's marriage to Stephen did you spot the Banns where Charlotte is given as a Spinster. :-\ As she gave her fathers occupation as a shop keeper would that fall in with the Carter family I found in 1891 in Barnes Surrey, George W Carter born Islington aged 74 & a Florist. :) (Details in a previous post)
If there is any info here that would be more helpful to you if I expanded on it do please say.
I shall go back to searching & confuse myself some more. ;)
Maddie