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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: maggbill on Tuesday 13 March 12 10:50 GMT (UK)
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I am a real "newbie" when it comes to searching Irish records. Believe I have found a possible Co. Tyrone death on Family Search Irish Civil Registration Index but really don't know where to go from here.
I have had a "brick wall" - not finding the death of my elusive gggrandfather Francis McNab. 1864 Scottish Poor Law Application and 1871 Glasgow SCotland census are the only real records for him - thereafter he and wife disappear from Scotland. We have thought for some time, that he and his wife could have returned to Ireland. The Scottish records for a possible brother (?or cousin), Michael McNab lead me to a possible birthplace of ?Segully Co. Tyrone, so am hoping that a death in 1890 for Francis McNab in Omagh, Co. Tyrone, found on the Irish Index could be him. There are also two possible deaths for a Mary McNab, (?his wife), in Omagh, first in 1885, second in 1889. So, after much deduction I am thinking that I should try to obtain the 1890 death entry for Francis.
I have read the information page on familysearch re the Ireland Civil Registration, but am confused as to whether the Index information (Volume number, page number and digital folder number), they give refers to the GRO or the GRONI records. Who do I order from?
Help - I am confused and going around in circles! Anyone - any advice?
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I have read the information page on familysearch re the Ireland Civil Registration, but am confused as to whether the Index information (Volume number, page number and digital folder number), they give refers to the GRO or the GRONI records. Who do I order from?
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For BMD records before 1922 it's the same index and records for GRO or GRONI. You can use the references from the index to order a cert from either.
The folder/film reference is for LDS use and not relevant to GRO records.
Note that Irish death certs do not give a much detail as Scottish ones - see link below
see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
Ordering Certificates for NI counties (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,383526.msg2557565.html#msg2557565)
Details included on a Death Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html)
Shane
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Thank you very much Shane for such a prompt response. Glad to know that the GRO and GRONI records are the same. I am still a bit confused about your comment "The folder/film reference is for LDS use and not relevant to GRO records. When I have obtained previous records via LDS they always have a microfilm number whereas the info I have found on this Index states
"Francis M'Nabb
registration district: Omagh
event type: DEATHS
registration quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1890
estimated birth year: 1816
age (at death): 74
volume number: 2
page number: 201
digital folder number: 4200678"
So I am presuming these volume and page numbers etc. are the ones I have to use in ordering from GRO or GRONI?
Again thanks for your help - will have a good read of the links you have sent.
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Francis M'Nabb
registration district: Omagh
event type: DEATHS
registration quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1890
estimated birth year: 1816
age (at death): 74
volume number: 2
page number: 201
digital folder number: 4200678"
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for ordering a civil cert from GRO, all you need are the details I've highlighted in your post.
Shane
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Again Shane - many thanks
Here's "fingers crossed" that finally I will get somewhere with my elusive ancestors! It's a never ending learning process!
Cheers
Maggs
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Before you order any certificates have a look at www.proni.gov.uk
"The Will of Francis M'Nabb late of Segully County Tyrone Farmer who died 3 May 1886 at same place was proved at Londonderry by Michael Grogan of Greenan Farmer and Andrew Moffitt (Junior) of Legfreshy Writing Clerk both in the County of Tyrone the Executors." Will mentions daughter Annie McNabb, daughter Mary Kearney, son John McNabb.
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HI Aghadowey,
Thanks for your input. I will have to resurrect my old "dead ender" pieces of info on Francis McNab, because I think I remember finding this will and discounting it - the name of children not being right etc. But it didn't click that this particular FRancis was from Segully - quite a specific area of Tyrone. I doubted even that he would be a cousin or relative of my Francis, - who was so poor on migrating to Glasgow that he applied for Poor Law Relief in 1864. He had travelled to Glasgow early 1864 and within 5 or 6 years, four of his six adult children had died. His ?brother/cousin Michael McNab died in the Poor House in 1893 (have his death entry), - but we have totally failed to find any records for Francis McNab and his wife Mary (Ms McCue), after 1873.
Will give more deep thought and consideration - have been knocking on this "brick wall" for years, so who knows - miracles may happen!!
Cheers
Maggs
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Hi Maggs. I am interested in your McNab connection. I am researching my own McNabb connections, in particular my great grandfather Francis McNabb who married Catherine Farnan in Country Tyrone around 1865. I believe Francis' father was named Michael.
Francis and Catherine had four children when they emigrated to New Zealand from Co Tyrone in 1873, arriving in Lyttelton in January 1874 they settled in Canterbury. They had a further five children in New Zealand, the youngest John James being my grandfather.
It has been difficult to trace the Irish records for these ancestors. I have found records of births of three of their children with the surname spelled differently on each occasion, ie Mc Anabb, McNabb and McNab. Their first child was probably born in Glasgow in 1866 (Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland) their second in Drumquin, Tyr, Ireland in 1868 and I am advised by the owner of a McNabb family tree that this child was born in Magharenny, Longfield East, Co. Tyrone (unknown to Google Maps) which brings my family and yours into very close proximity. I live in Australia. I would like to share information. Can you PP me?
Rimond
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
I am advised by the owner of a McNabb family tree that this child was born in Magharenny, Longfield East, Co. Tyrone (unknown to Google Maps) which brings my family and yours into very close proximity.
Magharenny is the name of a townland in the civil parish of Longfield East, Co. Tyrone and in the Poor Law Union/registration district of Omagh. This registration district (Omagh) would have covered a wide area).
www.familysearch.org has extracted birth records for several of the children-
~ Catherine McNabb born 4 Aug.1870 Drumquin [registration sub-district] Co.Tyrone (page 280 in civil register). The actual birth certificate will list as exact place of birth. You mentioned the birth of "their second [child] in Drumquin, Tyr, Ireland in 1868"- the extracted record on FamilySearch are not complete but as in Catherine's birth Drumquin is likely to be the registration sub-district.
~ Jane Mcnab born 31 Jan.1866 Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanarsk[shire], Scotland. Scottish birth certificates contain far more details than Irish ones and Jane's should list date and place of parents' marriage (may just say Omagh but there's a chance it will be more exact). See www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk to see about getting credits to view the certificate.
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Hi,
Francis and Catherine had another daughter, Susan, born in Carlton, Glasgow on 3 Feb 1864. If the couple were Catholic there is a good chance that there will be no marriage registration if they married in Ireland. Catholic Civil Registration started in 1864.
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Hi there Rimond and Aghadowey,
I continue to go around in circles! Rimond, your Francis and mine are obviously not the same one, but I wonder whether they are related - Do you know anything about your Francis' father Michael? year of birth, death?
As stated previously my "Francis McNab" would have been born about 1815 and he married Mary McHugh or McCue, and had children Jane, Mary, Alice, Hugh (my ggrandfather), Margaret and Patrick - all born in Ireland, between about 1836 and 1854. The family then moved to Glasgow at the beginning of 1864.
A Michael McNab (?brother or cousin to my Francis) appears as a visitor to their household in Glasgow census of 1871 and this Michael is said to be about 50 years old. It appears this Michael had moved to Scotland earlier on - married a woman called Helen Mulvey (Edinburgh connection) - and we know of only one child from the marriage - another Jane McNab who later on migrated to USA. When this Michael was admitted to the Poorhouse in 1884 he seemed to give his place of birth as "Tugally" Co. Tyrone - this name not seeming to exist at all - and thought to be "Segully".
I have done a fair bit of searching - and Segully was a small place of about 200 inhabitants at that stage - .. so to summarise it all - you can't tell me that there isn't a strong connection somewhere with all these "McNabs" !!! If only we could figure it out.!!!
Rimond, do you have any idea why your Francis and Catherine's first child was born in Glasgow in 1866? then the family returned to Drumquin?
Have followed my Francis and Mary up till about 1873 when 4 of their adult children have died - and after the death of their eldest daughter Jane, Francis and Mary (and Jane's daughter Mary Kenney age 4) disappear completely from all Scottish records. ??return to Ireland???
I become more convinced that the only way I will ever be able to clarify once and for all whether my McNabs are really part of the "Segully", "Longfield East" "McNab clan" is to be able to pay a visit there, and gain access to all and any original records available!!!!! Not likely - as I too live in Australia!! Would love to share any further info with you Rimond!
Cheers
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Hi,
Francis and Catherine had another daughter, Susan, born in Carlton, Glasgow on 3 Feb 1864. If the couple were Catholic there is a good chance that there will be no marriage registration if they married in Ireland. Catholic Civil Registration started in 1864.
Did another search on LDS site without Catherine's maiden name and found the birth record for Susan listed above (sometimes search will pick up variations in names and sometimes not)- Susan's mother listed as Catherine Farnin.
So, in 1864 and 1866 they were in Scotland but in Tyrone 1870.
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"Jane Mcnab born 31 Jan.1866 Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanarsk[shire], Scotland. Scottish birth certificates contain far more details than Irish ones and Jane's should list date and place of parents' marriage (may just say Omagh but there's a chance it will be more exact). See www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk to see about getting credits to view the certificate."
Many many thanks Aghadowey and Kingerswell and Maggs for your welcome and your suggestions and information. I now have the certificates for the births of Susan and Jane McNab which confirm that Francis and Catherine McNab were married on 25 Nov 1862 or 1863 (year differs between the two certificates) in Drumquin, Tyrone. Sadly there is a record of death for Susan at Springburn, Lanark in 1864.
I cannot find any record of the birth of their fourth child Mary A McNab born in 1873, or the record of the McNab-Farnan marriage. The spelling of the McNab varies - the earlier births were registered as McNab (includes the first NZ birth) and the remaining four births are McNabb.
I have the death certificates for both Francis (born abt 1841 d NZ 1928) and his wife Catherine (born abt d NZ 1922). Francis was the son of Michael McNab(b) and Jane McNab(b) (nee Mullins). Catherine was the daughter of Patrick Farnan and Catherine Farnan (nee Percy). Birthplace for both Francis and Catherine was stated as County Tyrone, but I found a 19 year old Francis D McNab as a boarder in Glasgow in the 1861 Census. His birthplace was Campeltown Argyleshire. Unfortunately as his birth was prior to 1855 I have had no luck searching on Scotlands People so can't rule him in or out.
Kingkerswell - they were Catholic. It is interesting that they lived in Glasgow as newlyweds, returned to Tyrone and then emigrated. I wonder how long this McNab family were established in Ireland as they seem to have had the facility to move between Ireland and Scotland. I thought also that it was rare for the Scots-Irish to convert to Catholicism.
This is a very interesting journey that I set out on just a couple of months ago. My family understood that our grandfather John James (Jack) McNabb had Scottish heritage, not Irish. Curiouser and curiouser.
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Hi there,
Here I am nearly 3 years after my original posting - and there is nothing like persistence, cos I am still looking for the eventual fate of my Francis McNab and his wife Mary McHugh (McCue)!!! I keep returning to this brickwall. Have managed to find a wealth of information about their offspring after they all moved from Co. Tyrone to Glasgow in 1864 - but the fate of the parents eludes me still.
I have however found the "original' info for deaths in Omagh district of a Francis McNabb, in 1890., and for what looks like his wife Mary McNabb in 1885. Mary's cert. states her death as 14 Oct. 1885, at "Mullinatormy"?? - Married, 78 years old, Labourer's wife, cause "Old age, no medical attendant". Informant was Francis McNabb, husband, (his mark) present at death "Mullinatornmy"??
Then death of Francis McNabb again in Omagh district, 21 June 1890, Workhouse Omagh. Francis McNabb from "Mullagharn", widower, age 74, labourer, cause of death "Old Age" and informant Joseph Rodger, occupier Workhouse Omagh.
Oh how tantalising - these certs confirm nothing (why no maiden or parents names?) - but I certainly can't discount them. Certain things seem right - ages are relevant to the vague birth years we know of - and in Glasgow census, Mary was in fact older than Francis. Our Francis was a "Labourer" ... Neither death entry indicates that they have family, which tallies with our Francis and Mary as 5 of their 6 adult children in Glasgow were dead by 1884, ( reason they could have returned to Ireland?). If this couple in fact lived in Mullagharn (or Mullinatormy??) - this seems relatively close to Segully, Drumquin area where we think ours came from.
I have little faith of obtaining any Omagh Poor House records for this Francis - appears there are no "admission" records left for the period. (wasted 25 dollars recently looking for possible records Omagh records for 1870.. - non existent).
Any ideas anyone? re this Mullagharn?? Or anything other ideas on where else to look? I might take years more to get all the pieces of the puzzle - but who knows??
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Mullagharn is a townland in the parish of Drumragh.
Mullanatoomog is also a townland in the same parish.
A possibility at least.
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Are they death Certs or Omagh Poor House records ??
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Hi There,
Thanks for the replies. The death entries I have are from PRONI / or is it GRONI - I keep getting confused between them .. it is the one which sends you on to NIDirect... It would seem from their website that the Omagh Poor house records are limited... for the period I want, there is only "Admin" sort of records available, whereas the OUtpatient relief/admission, discharges etc. relate only to 1922 - 1948 - therefore I doubt that I will be able to find Francis Poor House details? Unless they are actually available at PRONI - but not online? I find their website to be a bit difficult.
Re the townlands - again, I get confused with these Irish names... Will attach a snippet of Mary's certificate - see what you might think of the Mullinatoomog or mullinatormy?
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Hi,
I think that the name of the townland is MULLANATOOMOG which is in Omagh district to the NW of Omagh town..
Regards
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Thank you Kingskerwell,
Your eyes are much better than mine - I really couldn't read the place of death of Mary - and was trying to fit it in with "Mullagharn". But with your good deciphering, I have now managed to find a map with Mullanatoomog Rd, close to Mullagharn Rd., - Relatively close to Drumquin, which is close to Segully Rd., So it is all looking hopeful, sort of linking - but how on earth to verify for sure? I know they were catholics, so a couple of years ago, I did emails to local catholic parishes - one replied (Drumquin parish?) - saying no records found, the other parish never replied.
I will definitely have to win the lottery - a trip from Australia to Drumquin, to search for local catholic records - to finally figure out if these are Francis and Mary McNab - my great great grandparents.... No other way??? Will try to attach map of the area.. the "yellow road" without name is Mullanatoomog Rd.,
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If Francis & Mary were born and married in the RC parish of Longfield or Langfield, then a problem you face is that that parish has no baptism or marriage records earlier than 1846. This could be why you were unable to find any record of them when you contacted the parish priest.
I looked for McNab households in Mullonatoomog c 1885, and Mullagharn c 1890 in the revaluation records but none is listed. That doesn’t mean they weren’t living there but just that either they were lodging with someone else, or they didn’t live there long enough to be picked up by the Griffiths clerks or that they had a cabin of too low a value to be listed.
Labourers often moved around a lot and can be notoriously difficult to trace. They are unlikely to have any gravestone either, unless someone else paid for it.
It’s sad that there are no Poor Law admission records for Omagh but in general Irish Poor Law records don’t contain as much info as the Scottish ones (where you get a whole file) and so even if they did exist, you might not have got any more information about the family than you already have. Irish ones are mostly just a line of information in the admissions register, giving personal details plus the reason for admission, and date of departure/death.
A little general information about Omagh workhouse. The infirmary is the only bit still in existence today.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Omagh/
You don’t really get a lot of information on an Irish or English death certificate, compared with Scotland and some other jurisdictions. Can be very frustrating.
Do these dates for the 2 deaths you have found tie in with any Scottish marriage or death certs at all? For example, if one of the children married or died in say 1887, the cert ought to give the mother as dead and the father as alive.
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Hi Elwyn,
Thanks a million for this further information. It sure is true that I have been lucky so far to get a lot of my research done in Scottish records - so much easier.
Your knowledge of the Irish stuff is very helpful. Francis and Mary had taken their family to Glasgow in 1864, their four adult daughters married and all died there by about 1873, leaving sons Hugh and Patrick. Son Hugh then drowned at Greenock in March 1884 - and in his death entry there is no indication that either of the parents are dead. And the only record I can find thereafter is a marriage of their other son Patrick in Glasgow in Feb 1891, where his parents are both said to be deceased. So your idea is again quite helpful - the Mary I have found died in October 1885 - the father Francis died in June 1890 - both deaths being after son Hugh's death, and before marriage of Patrick. My Francis and Mary don't seem to appear at all in Scotland after about 1873 - nor do I find deaths for them - so I am becoming more and more convinced that they went back to Ireland - and I may have actually now found their deaths..... Fingers crossed.
So again - another tiny bit of positive information - tiny pieces of the jigsaw!! Sometimes this part of my research feels like one of those 10,000 piece ones - which you just have to keep going back to!!
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A Michael McNab (?brother or cousin to my Francis) appears as a visitor to their household in Glasgow census of 1871 and this Michael is said to be about 50 years old. It appears this Michael had moved to Scotland earlier on - married a woman called Helen Mulvey (Edinburgh connection) - and we know of only one child from the marriage - another Jane McNab who later on migrated to USA. When this Michael was admitted to the Poorhouse in 1884 he seemed to give his place of birth as "Tugally" Co. Tyrone - this name not seeming to exist at all - and thought to be "Segully".
Hi maggbill, if you are still around..:) where would I look up the record for the poorhouse admission?
I'm a relative of Rimond and we have made some progress since 2012 but still looking to determine whether this was our Michael or not. I see he is in the Scotland census as early as 1851 which
Also (just in case you weren't already aware in the meantime) there are now some trees for your Francis on ancestry.com public member trees.
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Hi Matt,
Have received/replied to email. I have Michael McNabs Poor Law Relief record... will find it for you.
Maggs