RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Special Needs Girl on Wednesday 14 March 12 22:02 GMT (UK)
-
Arthur Crabtree was born on 12th October 1892 in Edmonton, Middlesex.
He was the elder of twin boys.
In 1905 he was put in Chase Farm orphanage in Edmonton, Middlesex with his twin brother, Robert when their mother died.
In 1910 he was working as an apprentice near to Edmonton, Middlesex.
I believe I have found him arriving in New Zealand in 1914.
Arthur has always been spoken about in our family but no-one knows what happened to him.
Did he change his name?
Are you descended from Arthur?
Does anyone know of him?
Thank you for reading this message and your help.
I would love to hear from you if you know anything about him.
Many thanks for reading this message
SNG
-
Hi
The only "Arthur" CRABTREE death in New Zealand was 1979 of an Eric Arthur CRABTREE (born 1 May 1897).
This man served WW1 and was the son of Alice CRABTREE of Auckland NZ.
~ Lu
-
Hi again
Sorry, not on New Zealand electoral rolls at all and nothing found in searches of other resources pertaining to NZ.
You say he was an apprentice in 1910 ? Can you tell us what type of work he was engaged in ?
~ Lu
-
Hello...
You also say "I believe I have found him arriving in New Zealand in 1914."
What makes you say that.
And you also mention his mother. Do you know her name?
Regards
Beg
-
I believe I have found him arriving in New Zealand in 1914.
Mmm ... can't see him travelling to New Zealand in records at "findmypast" (FindMyPast) website ?
[There is an Arthur CRABTREE bc 1891 - Liverpool to Canada in 1930 - might be worth following up on ? ]
-
Thanks everyone.
I trawlled through the newspapers on the NZ site.
Two older brothers had emigrated to NZ and they asked the twins to go out there for a better life.
They got to Southampton and my grandfather turned back (I think he was sweet on my grandmother!!!!)
Arthur went by himself. Something happened which involed money going missing and Arthur disappeared.
Trawling through the NZ papers I found an article that stated that a charity box was stolen from the hotel which one of the older brothers ran, on Christmas Eve 1914.
Putting 2 and 2 together I presumed that was what had happened. Arthur obviously couldn't face anyone in the family if he had stolen from them. The older brother was an established person in the area in NZ where he had settled and he informed the family still in the UK.
Having both your parents dying and ending up in a children's home - put there by an older brother must have been awful for the twins. They had not had much in life and I suppose seeing the money on the bar just made Arthur envious.
Arthur is on the 1911 census as a Bakers Roundsman living in Stoke Newington, Middlesex.
I did wonder if he had signed up and joined WW1 for NZ / Australia or may have even gone to S Africa or Canada.
I followed a trail to SA but the facts did not match.
Thanks again everyone.
Hopefully I will find a link somewhere eventually. However I've been looking for years!
SNG
-
Hi SNG
As part of our "general searching", our PapersPast website is most always included. I know I looked there for an "Arthur Crabtree". :D (Unfortunately, to no avail).
* So who were the brothers who came to New Zealand ??
Did they have the "CRABTREE" surname ??
~ Lu
-
Trawling through the NZ papers I found an article that stated that a charity box was stolen from the hotel which one of the older brothers ran, on Christmas Eve 1914.
Hello Lucy...
Maybe this article...
Hawera & Normanby Star, 28 December 1914, Page 5
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0kvm/
Regards
Beg
-
The parents appear to be Robert and Alice, and one of the two brothers that came to NZ a Rupert. The other possibly Ernest.
Rupert was still in the UK in 1911, but obviously came to NZ between then and 1914 - Feb 1914 on the Remuera, with wife Maggie and two children.
Ian C
-
The other [brother] possibly Ernest.
Certainly seems to be the case...
Hawera & Normanby Star, 18 October 1921
Eltham Magistrate's Court - A Licensing Case
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0kvr/
Possibly the corresponding burial for Ernest at Te Henui Cemetery, New Plymouth
http://www.newplymouthnz.com/CouncilAtoZ/CemeteriesAndCrematorium/CemeterySearch.htm
and a probate at Archives NZ...
CRABTREE Ernest 1954 - 1954
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23004222
May mention his younger brother Arthur. May not
Regards
Beg
-
Thanks everyone for your help.
You have been working hard while I have been sleeping and then working today.
Yes Rupert & Ernest were the two brothers who went to NZ. Their sister stayed in Edmonton all her life.
My mother used to tell me that Ernest (who was known as Uncle Jack) worked his steerage from the UK to NZ.
It was he who settled before 1911 and then persuaded Rupert to join them so he moved out with his wife & 2 children.
Yes Beg - that was the article I found on the NZ papers site. I have read everyone associated with Crabtree!
I saw the Licensing Case article that you have highlighted .... again I am wondering about it.
On the 1901 census in the UK the children were living with their mother Alice and her 'husband' Abraham Coleman.
Despite extensive searches I have found NO records for an actual marriage. Poor Abraham died not long after the census so Alice was again a widow.
Because the children were listed as COLEMAN, I have searched for Arthur Coleman but nothing jumps out.
HOWEVER .... the article above the Licensing Case is about Osmond Thomas Coleman stealing a car.
That same Osmond Thomas Coleman is the youth who wanted liquor in Ernest's buisness.
The date of the article is 18 Oct 1921. Could Osmond be Arthur?
I have tried looking for a birth of this name in the UK on a******* but cannot find one.
I did notice that Osmond's name appears on NZ electoral rolls but I do not have world wide subscription so cannot check anything.
Was an Osmond T A really born in NZ?
If he wasn't known to the hotel why would he try to buy liquor there? Had he tried before?
However if a charity box is stolen by you would you go back to the same place?
I have tried to find a follow up article saying they had found the empty charity box or nothing was ever found ... but nothing.
I honestly thought I would have found something with all the internet access but it would appear not.
Thanks again everyone for your help.
SNG
-
Sorry a day working has not helped my brain.
My maths is wrong - Osmond can't be Authur -- Arthur would be 29 years old not 19. Sorry.
Better go to bed!!!
SNG
-
Osmond Thomas COLEMAN
Born - New Zealand -- 1901
S/o Ann Maria and Thomas Edward COLEMAN
-
Hi again...
It's a very long shot but, as I said earlier, you could try ordering probates from Archives NZ. Not only for Ernest but for Rupert's two children, Rupert George and Ruth Maggie.
You never know who or what may be mentioned in the file. And it may lead to a descendant here in NZ who has an interest in family history and knows all the answers.
There's no direct cost involved for you as you're relying on the kindness of a fellow rootschatter. He/she will visit the Archives on your behalf, take photos of the file, and then email the photos to you.
Here's an example of a successfully completed Wellington Archives look-up request....
Wellington Archives Probate - McNeil
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,583765.0.html
and here are the links you'd need to include in your request...
CRABTREE Ernest 1954
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23004222
MCMILLAN Ruth Maggie - 1958
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23053215
CRABTREE Rupert George 1974
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23078253
Regards
Beg
-
Thanks Lucy2
That means that Arthur is not Osmond. Thinking about it afterwards the maths did not work out - thats why I put it down to tiredness. However it is nice to have it confirmed. Thanks again
Thanks too Beg.
I know that Ernest left his estate to his wife and something to his nephew George. His wife May actually left something to my mother.
I would have thought Rupert & his wife Maggie left everything to George & Ruth their children.
However if I wanted a copy of May Crabtree's Will who would I contact? It would be nice to read the part where my mother is mentioned.
Rupert and Jack (Ernest) kept in contact with their sister Maud and brother Robert (twin of Arthur) until their deaths.
When my grandfather died my mother continued the writing to May and George.
Arthur never contacted anyone. All the family knew about his 'lightfingeredness' but no-one knows what happened to him afterwards.
I did look carefully at the archived NZ newspapers to see if any unknown bodies had been found or bodies washed up.
Ironically it was the older brother Rupert who put the twins in the orphanage!
Do you think I should post my message on the Australian and Canadian sites on Roots?
I have posted this on the UK site and it was a kind soul who suggested I posted it on the NZ site.
Its just so nice that people are willing to help.
best wishes everyone
SNG
-
Hi SNG,
Is this the probate you were enquiring about?
Emma May Azelia CRABTREE.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23012726
I can take photos of the file if you wish (and the others listed by Beg Clonrode if you want them).
Spades
-
Hi SNG
Yes, I think it's worth "casting the net" further and posting on the Canadian board particularly (and possibly also on the Australian board). ;)
[I did search (some) Australian death and cemetery records - to no avail ... but much better to utilise the expertise of those with additional resources in Australia. ]
Incidentally, I see that Arthur was still in the UK (London area) in 1911 (boarding with a couple). It's possible that he worked his passage to NZ and that's why we've not found him amongst the passenger lists.
Good luck. :)
~ Lu
-
Thanks Spades and Lucy2.
From what I remember my mother saying - Ernest paid for Arthur to travel to NZ. He seemed to prosper in NZ and was a respected business man from all accounts. It must have been highly embarassing for him when Arthur stole from them.
That is very kind of you to offer to take photos of the probates for me. How do I provide contact details for you to send to me? Am I allowed to put email addresses on here?
Yes that is Jack's wife.
Best wishes
SNG
-
Hi SNG,
No don't post your email addy here,use the PM system
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Cheers Janette
-
From what I remember my mother saying - Ernest paid for Arthur to travel to NZ. He seemed to prosper in NZ and was a respected business man from all accounts. It must have been highly embarassing for him when Arthur stole from them.
I wonder if that was family folklore to keep face ;D ;D
stranger things have happened in families
Cheers Janette
-
Hi Janette.
No I believe Ernest was quite wealthy. He 'married into money' as the saying goes.
Also reading the articles in the NZ papers he was a hotelier and always seemed to be donating to charities etc.
He travelled to the UK a few times to see his family - that cannot have been cheap.
I also found an article which implied that a lot of money had been won on the horses but hadn't been paid up so May Crabtree took the chap to court.
Ernest & May had no children and photos we have of them show a posh car, furs and high lifestyle while back in the UK their youngest brother was a miner in a small Welsh village and their sister doing dressmaking alterations for people and 'ghost' writing for a very famous author (when she could) and not getting her own recognition for her writing.
Arthur was definately a thorn in everybody's side. BUT .... his lfe had been terrible and perhaps he envied his older brother's life in NZ. He saw the charity money as a quick way to make money on Christmas Eve.
Best wishes
SNG
-
Images sent.
Spades
-
Thanks VERY much Spades, they are absolutely fantastic.
And thank you so much for taking time and effort to visit the archives department to take the photos.
I am now going to study them.
Thanks again
SNG
-
Hi there, I'm a descendant of Rupert and Maggie Crabtree and am tracing back the line and trying to find Arthur as well. Perhaps I could be of some help :)