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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: Allan Robson on Monday 19 March 12 15:26 GMT (UK)
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Hello All
I have hit a brick wall, Mary G Douglas born 1835 Kelso, was Living on her own in Kelso on the 1881 Census, her parents were Robert Douglass born 1811 and Esther Ormiston born 1809 they had died by 1881. afer 1881 Census the trail goes cold, did she marry, Die?.
Maybe someone can find her after 1881.
Many Thanks
Allan
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Hi Allan
She died in Galashiels on 29 Dec 1927. Aged 93. Widow of John Inglis, Master Tailor. Correct parents are showing. Send me a PM with your e-mail and I'll forward the cert.
gnu
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I think she's in Melrose in 1891:
Sprouston Cottages, Melrose
Mary G Inglis, 56, Dressmaker, b. Kelso
In 1901 She's at the same address and details but now down as a shopkeeper/Confectioner
No sign of her husband with her.
I'll check for a marriage ::)
gnu
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Scotlands People have them marrying in Galashiels in 1885.
gnu
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Thanks Gnu.
My email is * (gnu has it)
Regards
Allan
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I wonder if this might be John Inglis in 1881:
Sprouston Bank, Melrose
John Inglis, 47, clothier, b. Smallholm, Rox
Jessie, w, 40, b. Southdean
James. K, s, 12, b. Tweedmouth
William. W, s, 10, b. Earlston
John, s, 8, b. Hawick
Robert W, s, 5, b. Melrose
Alexander Sanderson , lodger, Commision Agent, b. Dalkeith
A Jessie Inglis, died Melrose, 1883. Aged 44
gnu
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Once again many thanks, you smashed the Brick wall,
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Melrose parish actually covers many villages around Melrose, not just Melrose alone - Sprouston Road/Cottages is in fact in the Village of Newtown (now called Newtown St Boswells) 3 miles SE of Melrose.
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Thanks for your reply, i am looking for the Baptism of James Douglass, his birth varies from 1804-1809 due to various censuses. family say he was born in the Kelso area.
Thanks
Allan
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Hi Allan
Is this your request thread for him:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,587265.0.html
terrianne and I had a look for him on that one
It can get a bit confusing if you have duplicates :-\
gnu
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yes it is i aplogise, still havent found him Though.
Allan
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How about getting his marriage cert:
looks as if James married an Alice Shipley in Sunderland Mar quarter 1852 vol 10a p 358. This should give his father's name.
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I have that his father was Robert Douglass trouble is there are a few with that name, the baptism will have Mothers name and that i need to confirm,
Thanks Allan
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How old was his brother, Robert (Mary's father) and do you have his baptism?
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I dont have his baptism, he was born around 1811
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I'm wondering whether they (Robert and Margaret) were non-Church of Scotland. Did they (James and Robert,jnr) have any other siblings?
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Baptism of Robert in Jedburgh:
30 Sept 1810 Robert s/o Robert Douglas and Margaret Dickieson
They also had Robert ( 28 Sept 1804), Betty (5 July 1806), Mary ( 2 May 1808) John 15 Sept 1812) and Thomas (17 March 1815). All b. Jedburgh
Given the gap between the first Robert and Betty and the baptisms in Jedburgh , maybe James wasn't their son.
gnu
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you have hit the nail on the head and yet Mary is living with James in 1851 in Sunderland and described as his Niece?
Allan
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Niece could cover a wider range of relationships in those days. All we know is that she's Robert's and Esther's daughter.
Does the marriage cert definitely say his father was Robert and what did it give for occupation?
Also, where did you get the Kelso area birthplace - censuses seem to just say Scotland :-\
Maybe we should get back to the beginning :-\
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Family Records say the family came from Kelso, the marriage cert say Father Robert Douglass no occupation.
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James's children with Jessie , from censuses, were James, Robert and David. Do you have Jessie's parents so that we can tick the trad naming pattern boxes?
gnu
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Sorry i have given you wrong info, James Douglass born 1809 his Father was also called James, i still cant trace a birth as yet.
Allan
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Right - I might have some possibles then - will go and consult my listings :)
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A possible in Sprouston (map link http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ky4/ ). As you can see, Sprouston is just outside Kelso.
May 1803 James Douglass, hind in Windywalls and Nelly his wife had a son born 8th April 1803 and baptized May 1803 named James. Witnesses - George Dickison and Geo Hobkirk
Could this George be a relative of Robert's mother?
gnu
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Thanks it could be, as for Jessie's parents the only one that fits is Andrew main and Janet lillie the had a daughter Janet born 1802.
Regards
Allan
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Mary Geraldine Douglass witnessed the marriage between James Main
Douglass and Mary Lightly. In 1861, Mary Geraldine was back in Kelso with an aunt and uncle, and in
1871 with another aunt and uncle.
James Main Douglass was the son of James Douglass and Jessie Main, so that proved there is link but where?
Thanks
Allan
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Who were the aunts and uncles on the 1861 and 1871?
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Who were the aunts and uncles on the 1861 and 1871?
Answering my own question:
1861 Robert Inglis and Isabella Inglis -were they related to the John who Mary married?
1871 Elspeth Mills
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Sorry i had to pop out, i think they were Related to Mary's Husband, this is a tough one i have proved there is a link but so far cant find it.
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Need to trace them back - have you got any info on either sets?
Isabella's and Elspeth's maiden names, etc.
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I am sorry this is all i have.
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I'll have a look for them and get back to you but I think that it might be worth you having a look for possible marriages, etc. - even on familysearch (www. familysearch.org ) if you don't use Scotlands People.
gnu
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Thanks for your help, it is much appreciated.
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Robert Inglis married Isabella Ormiston
Elpeth Mills' maiden name was Ormiston
So wrong side for James so far :-\
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Thanks ,So this was Mary's side of the Family, James is a puzzle tho.
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Mary's mother, Esther Ormiston's kin.
When did Mary's parent's die? I see that she was with John (60) and Mary (1806) Ormiston in the 1841. But they were in Sunderland in 1851.
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Esther Ormiston married Robert Douglas in 1834 in Soho London, they were back in Kelso in 1841, however the enumerator put Esther down as 'Elizabeth' for some Reason.
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Esther died in Kelso in 1880. Parents were John Ormiston(shoemaker) and Mary Marshall so not that side.
Robert and James could have been cousins, and niece was the closest description for the generation shift (I called all my parents' first cousins aunty and uncle)
gnu
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I am now wondering if i have it wrong, maybe Robert Douglass and Margaret Dickieson were not the parents of my Robert Born 1811, maybe Roberts father was James the same as James was, i shall have to see what i can find buts its a hard one to sort out.
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Did Robert die in Sunderland or did he also return to Kelso?
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Robert died in Sunderland in 1860
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An interesting 1841 census entry that you might consider:
Millwynd, Kelso
James Douglas, 80, baker, born Scotland/ not Roxburghshire
Both James and Robert were bakers
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yes i have seen that one, i want to prove the parents of Robert Douglass born 1811 were Robert Douglass and Margaret Dickieson as there are parent given on the IGI, i will try to find his Siblings Marriages and see who had down as there father?
Thanks
Allan
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Hi. New to this. I've been talking via email with Allan. My ancestor is James Douglass b 1809 by date at death. Birth records few and far between. No birth refs for his sons James [Main - added later] Douglass b Oct 1835 and Robert [Main ditto] Douglass 1837. Birth of Kelso is from Census' for all, and family knowledge/ belief. James M Douglass moved to Sunderland 1838. Robert M Douglass moved to Sunderland 1848. Both died there. The father of James Douglass b 1809 Kelso is highly likely to be the Baker shown on C1841, aged 80 ('rounded'?), although he is possibly grandfather. On James M Douglass' wedding cert, 2nd marriage in 1852, it shows father James, Baker, deceased.
Both James 1809 and Robert 1837 were bakers, Robert shown as Master Baker on his death cert.
I do not have Robert's wedding cert to Esther Ormiston, dau of John Ormiston and Mary Marshall. (just an image from Soho)
Here is what I have, with additions from Allan and the rest of you:
1. C1841 Mary Douglas age 6 b 1835 with grandfather John ORMSTON (digitized as 'Orension'), age 60, b~1781, Shoemaker and his dau Mary b 1806. John's wife was Mary Marshall. Address: Horse Market, Kelso
2. C1841 her father Robert Douglass, Baker, & mother Esther Ormston just up the road, address Horse Market Kelso, digitized as 'Dough' with children William 4 James 2 Janet 2 mo together with Esther's bro William, a Mail M J, and a servant
3. C1851 Mary niece 16 with James Douglass, Baker, in Sunderland, niece/housekeeper, Sherriff Lane
The following all apply to Mary Geraldine or Mary G specifically:
4. Marriage cert James Main Douglass (son of above James) and Mary Lightly in 1857 in Sunderland shows Mary Geraldine Douglass as witness
5. C1861 Mary Geraldine Douglass back in Kelso at 14 Coal Market, age 25, niece, occupation Shopowner, living with Robert INGLIS, Tailor, and Isabella Inglis. Isabella is Esther ORMSTON's sister. They appear to have married in Georgia USA; according to Census they had their first 2 children in New York USA, then moved back to Kelso pre C1861.
6. C1871 Mary G Douglass age 36 b Kelso, at 19 Forrestfield Kelso, Dressmaker, 'niece' living with Elspeth MILLS and Neil I Mills. Elspeth (?Elizabeth b 1820) ORMSTON, sister of Esther Ormiston, married John Mills 1850 in Kelso. John had been previously married to Elizabeth Millar, parents of Neil. Neil shown as 'stepson' Printer & Compositor.
7. C1881 Mary G Douglas age 46 'Head' b Kelso, Dressmaker, living on her own at 7 Union St Kelso
8. Marriage 1885 in Galashiels (Scotland's People)[John Inglis]
Census data for John Inglis shows he is possibly the son of James Inglis and Agnes ORMSTONE
9. C1891 Mary G Inglis, living Sprouston Cottages Melrose, b Kelso 1835, 'Head' age 56, Dressmaker
10. C1901 at Sprouston Cottages, Melrose, Shopkeeper/ Confectioner.
11. Death 1927 age 93 in Galashiels, widow of John Inglis, Master Tailor - thank you all.
After Robert M Douglass (married to Esther O) died in S'land in 1860, Esther remarried James R Tait or Tate in 1866. She did not, as far as I have found, return to Kelso.
James M Douglass did not return to Kelso. He died nr Sunderland in 1913.
The only one to return to Kelso was Mary Geraldine Douglass.
So at this stage, circumstantial evidence puts MGD with my ancestor James M Douglass, probably with his father James D at C1851 (though not shown as Mary 'Geraldine'), and very much associated with the Ormiston family. So it seems highly likely that her parents, as advised by Allan - I have not found a birth reference - are Robert and Esther. And therefore that Robert is James' brother.
The purpose, for me, is to try to find James Douglass' birth, and possibly confirm whether or not the James, baker, on C1841 is his father or maybe grandfather. I have spent many weeks seeking a James abt 1809 and a Robert abt 1811 born to the same family, the only remote possibility being a couple in Perthshire, James Douglass and Margaret Ross who had, amongst others, George Robert in 1810 and James in 1806.
Most intriguingly, a link pops up on the C1841 James Douglass, 80, entry referring to a marriage in Sth Carolina USA. A link to USA c1860, in Sth Carolina, pops up for one of the sons of the Perthshire couple, David Douglass b 1820. As I can't access USA records, I haven't found out any more about this.
Well that's the full story as I know it.
I know Allan has been seeking your help - I thought a bit more info might just shake this puzzle enough for an answer to emerge!
Many thanks
L
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Hi Lois
Thanks for that. However, none of it is new to me as I had put together the information that you've given from other threads that he has made here and in Co. Durham (links given) and from my searches for him - including looking at the many trees on Ancestry. These trees are consistent with showing Robert as the son of Robert Douglas and Margaret Dickison. I suggest that it might be worth you reading this thread and the others that I've linked to to see what has been found.
If you read through this thread, and the others that I've linked to, you will see all of the information that has been found (also, James married jessie in 1834 in Kelso. She was of Ednam at the time)
I am of the opinion that Robert and James were cousins.
I'm now leaving this to Allan to follow up, having spent considerable time and some credits on searches.
gnu
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Had a quick look at the 1861 census for Kelso
And it show a Mary G Douglas age 25 Shopworker at 14 Coalmarket with Robert adn Isabella Inglis and family. and two of their child were born in New York, USA
Might be helpful
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Already noted, terriane. They seem to be from the Ormiston side. see:
1861 Robert Inglis and Isabella Inglis -were they related to the John who Mary married?
1871 Elspeth Mills
Robert Inglis married Isabella Ormiston
Eslpeth Mills' maiden name was Ormiston
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PS - Mary Marshall Inglis, aged 8 on the 1861, was named for Isabella's (and Esther's) mother - Mary Marshall.
Esther died in Kelso in 1880. Parents were John Ormiston(shoemaker) and Mary Marshall so not that side.
gnu
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Thank you both very much. Yes I had read the various threads, but since it was an "active post" I thought it might be helpful to put all the info together - especially the aunts info - to hopefully help and maybe find a solution. Yes, I have the marriage extract for James/Jessie, thanks.
L
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A considerable number of baptisms in Scotland before 1855 (I've seen estimates of up to 70%) are not recorded for various reasons. This might well be the case with these particular Douglases.
Also, all we know is that Mary was recorded as niece. As I've said earlier, niece had a broader meaning then and included relatives of the next generation down, rather than just the child of a sibling. Further, Mary could have been related through James's mother's line or through Jessie. We don't know. That is why I went through the Inglis family. I think that these lines should be explored in more detail by Allan and other family members.
In addition, have you looked at the monumental inscriptions for Kelso. These can often be very rewarding. They are available through the Borders FHS http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/ * Wills on the Scotlands People site could also be consulted, in case. I've also had searches done on 19C local newspapers for my ancestors - has this been considered?
gnu
* http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=398
and
http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/BFHSGravestoneIndexSearch.asp
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Many Thanks for your input all avenues are being looked, if we find James i will let you know.
Regards
Allan
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How about getting his marriage cert:
looks as if James married an Alice Shipley in Sunderland Mar quarter 1852 vol 10a p 358. This should give his father's name.
I don't understand why this marriage certificate hasn't been obtained.
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The cert has been obtained. See para 1 of my earlier, long, post. As noted, his 2nd marriage (to Alice Shipley) shows father James, Baker, deceased.
His death cert has also been obtained, informant was the son.
L
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I can see where I've confused you in para 1 - should say 'James Douglass' second marriage' in 1852 - not James M.
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Re Esther death 1880 Kelso, dau of John Ormiston and Mary Marshall - our records indicated that she remarried James R Tait in 1866 after her husband Robert Douglass' death in Sunderland in 1860. I've attached a screenshot fyi.
I wonder if you could tell me - was her death in 1880 registered as surname 'Douglass'? I have looked on ScotlandsPeople and other places (surname Ormiston, Douglass, Tait/Tait).
Thank you
L
Image removed as it breaks the terms and conditions of Ancestry membership
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AHA Checking further, this James R Tate already had a wife at C1861, so my snapshot is not correct. I must say I don't generally rely on the 'links'/clues... oops.
So the qu now is an easy one - The Esther who died in 1880 in Kelso, was it as surname Douglass?
Cheers
L
PS If I knew how to remove my last totally wrong post, I would.
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I would have thought you might have downloaded her death cert to check. It was very easy to find. My earlier posting:
Esther died in Kelso in 1880. Parents were John Ormiston(shoemaker) and Mary Marshall so not that side.
Her death cert shows her as the widow of Robert Douglas, baker journeyman. Her parents are shown as John Ormiston, shoemakeer and Mary m.s. Marshall. Both deceased. There is no mention of a Tate. She died at 7 Union Street, Kelso.
Her brother was the informant.
Have you looked for her in the 1871 under Douglas* or even Ormiston? (See next posting)
I'm also wondering if the 1834 marriage in London was correct. Do you have a marriage entry or, if not, what was the source of that information.
gnu
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In 1871, she is living in Chapel Street, Selkirk with her daughter Euphemia
Esther Douglas, widow, 51, housekeeper, b. Kelso
Euphemia, dau, unm, 19, woollen millworker, b. England
I think there appears to have been some jumping to conclusions from what I can see.
gnu
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Lois
I think you should try to find an MI in for the 1841 James Douglas, baker, aged 80-84. He is the most probably father for James.
I've given the link previously
* http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=398
and
http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/BFHSGravestoneIndexSearch.asp
gnu
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I think that this might be James snr's burial entry:
Kelso 1848
James Douglas aged 87 years Died Kelso 7 February and was buried in Kelso Churchyard 9 February 1848 in Ground N694 of Plan N1
gnu
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Thanks the Marriage of Robert Douglass and Esther Ormston is on the igi for 30th March 1864 at Soho Westminster, i also have the Marriage cert for her marriage to James Tait,
Regards
Allan
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I also have the Marriage cert for her marriage to James Tait,
What does it say on this particular marriage certificate - place, names, ages and father's name, occupation.
However, this is going further away from discovering the actual kinship relationship between Mary and James. That is why I suggested that you looked for the MIs.
gnu
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Euphemia Douglas, daughter of Robert and Esther, was with her mother in Selkirk in 1871 see:
In 1871, she is living in Chapel Street, Selkirk with her daughter Euphemia
Esther Douglas, widow, 51, housekeeper, b. Kelso
Euphemia, dau, unm, 19, woollen millworker, b. England
She married Walterr Sanderson in 1878 in Kelso, when her mother would still have been alive.
On the marriage cert, her address is given as Selkirk and her parents are given as Robert Douglas, baker (deceased) and Hester, m.s. Ormiston. Her occupation is woollen mill weaver.
No mention of Tait on Esther's death cert, her daughter's marriage cert or the 1871 census entry.
gnu
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Esther Douglas age 48 Widow, married James Tait age 54 on 19th March 1866 in Register Office in Sunderland, her father was John Ormiston Shoemaker, (Dec'd)
Winesses mark of Ann Maddison and Margaret Donaldson. Either James Tate died before the 1871 Census or or didnt work out.
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Well, Allan and Lois, I see that Allan has been looking for this family group on here (and other sites) since 2009 or before and no one has found any baptisms or anything to substantiate a link between Robert and James. So, unless someone (like Maxwell Ancestry)has local records or the Borders FHS can come up with something, I don't think you'll get much further.
As I said, only a small proportion of baptisms are recorded for a range of reasons. Yours are most likely in that category. James Douglas, baker, aged 80-84 on the 1841 is the most likely parent for James. He was down as not born Roxburghshire which makes it needles and haystacks.
Douglas (variations) was a fairly common Border name and, with first names of Robert and James, it's far more difficult.
gnu
PS - I won't give all the links to other threads on this Forum but I'd ask Allan to put up these links if he asks for any more info on the Douglases. I not that Andrea (sillgen), one of our mods, did mention this a while ago on a Robson thread
Is this the same query already posted four times?
Duplicate posts do not help I'm afraid.
Andrea
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,548363.msg4018347.html#msg4018347
also
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,548363.msg4018715.html#msg4018715
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The reason i repeated the thread is that there are new records released all the time and one day one of them might be my Query.
Thanks
Allan
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Many thanks, GNU. I had not purchased the Kelso MIs so yr info very much appreciated. I'll order the certificate and see where it takes us. My focus is James. Also, your info that he was 'not' born Roxburgh is also extremely helpful, as all the C1841 said was 'born Scotland'. I agree, though, that this is probably as far as we'll get with my James!
(Re Esther death 1880, the address is the same at which Mary Geraldine Douglass was living on her own in the 1881 census.)
Thanks again for all your help
Lois
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Hi
Website http://pvpfamilytree.tribalpages.com shows James Douglass, James Main Douglass, Jessie Mein and families, including Mary Geraldine Douglass - although the exact link is as yet uncertain.
Regards
Lois
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not sure if anyone is still checking this thread, but I am a descendant of the James Douglas (baker) living at Millwynd in Kelso in 1841 age 80, he died in 1848. So far I believe he had 4 daughters one of which was my 4xgreat grandmother.
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Hi Shevvy, I am the starter of this thread, do you know if your James had a Brother called Robert Douglass born in Kelso.
Thanks
Allan
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Hi Shevvy, I am the starter of this thread, do you know if your James had a Brother called Robert Douglass born in Kelso.
Thanks
Allan
I don’t unfortunately. I only know James Douglas is the father of my 4xgreat grandmother Janet Douglas as he is a witness for her marriage. I haven’t managed to trace them back any further, I have found a possible baptism for Janet in Earlston, which would then mean she had 3 sisters, but not 100 sure on that baptism for her.
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Just coming back to this thread, still working on James Douglas who is a Baker in the 1841 census. I am pretty sure he is the father of my Janet Douglas who married William Rutherford as he is a witness for her marriage.
I have found a will for a James Douglas who died in 1848 as a grocer, this could be James the baker, but only relative that appears to be mentioned is a George Douglas. It's hard to read.
So not sure if the death in 1848 is definitely him or a different James. I know my Janet ended up in Edinburgh and then Sunderland.
There is a possible marriage that could be James to Elizabeth Glasgow in 1787 in Kelso. But hard to know if it's definitley him. I can only find a set of twins baptism to them in 1803 in Stichill and Hume