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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Cardiganshire => Topic started by: meaty on Wednesday 28 March 12 21:37 BST (UK)
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Hi, I stumbled accross some information that is probably something every genealogist dreams of.
Basically, my ggg grandfather Thomas Jones of Trewyddel, Gwenlli (near Synod Inn) had a famous musician cousin who went by the name of Dafydd Siencyn Morgan (or David Jenkin Morgan in its anglesized form). I know this because Thomas Jones' obituary states they were cousins (not gospel, but a good indication of truth).
Now Dafydd Siencyn Morgan, was the son of a well known sexton of Llangrannog. Francis Jones in Cardiganshire Homes and their Families (epic book) states that the father claimed a proud ancestry from the Lords of Towyn (Gwbert, Ferwig near Cardigan), who in turn claim descent from Gwynfardd, Prince of Dyfed in the 11th Century.
So, you can understand my excitement when I came accross this information. I am close to establishing my family's genealogy for near on 1000 years (albeit not 100% reliable, but still quite compelling nonetheless).
Now this is what I need to do:
Prove that my ggg grandfather Thomas Jones born 1813 was in fact a cousin of Dafydd Siencyn Morgan born 1752. Now this means that I must find a common ancestor between the two. I am not very well aquainted with researching records from this period in history and I was wondering where I should start?
Any help appreciated. Thanks :)
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Start with what you do know and work backwards from your GGG Grandfather Thomas Jones born 1813. You could start looking at familysearch.org and then verifying any information obtained from there with parish registers.
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Hi. Thanks for your reply.
I just went onto Familysearch.org and found a Thomas Jones Christened in Llandysiliogogo to a Joshua Jones and Elizabeth on 24th January 1813. Sounds promising - I cant believe I found that record in such a short time! Thanks very much.
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So I guess I now need to confirm this record by finding it in the Parish Register?
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You may wish to try Ceredigion Archives at archives@ceredigion.gov.uk or telephone 01970633697/8. Alternatively get in touch with Ceredigion Family History Society www.cgnfhs.org.uk/
Dave
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Ok I will try thanks.
With fuel costing as much as it does it could very well be an option to pay a 3rd party for undertaking the research on my behalf.
I wonder if such a service exists?
Thanks
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Have a word with the ladies at the Archives, they are very helpful.
Dave
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Ok well a brief update on this quest for information.
I failed to find Thomas Jones parents. Well the people who I thought they were, turned out to be wrong.
On the other end of the missing link, I have started tracing right the way back.
The highlights include:
Llanborth and Dyffryn Hownant of Penbryn.
Plas Eglwyswen in Pembrokeshire.
The Lordship of Towyn near Cardigan.
Rhydderch ap Rhys (to whom Dafydd Nanmor wrote poetry)
Dafydd ap Gwilym (one of Wales Foremost poets).
Gwilym ab Einon (constable of Cardigan castle),
Llewylyn fychan (constable of Emlyn castle),
Coedmor/coedmawr estate
The Bowens of Pentre Evan
etc etc. Still cant seem to get a primary source connecting my Thomas to DS Morgan though....
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Remember that they could be cousins through a maternal line.
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Yes there is that possibility, thanks for reminding me.
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Right well I have located Thomas Jones, Trewyddel, Gwenlli, Llandissiliogogo parish marriage certificate to Sarah James at Llangynllo Church 29/10/1839. Thomas gives his address as Llynddu, and Sarah's is Penyrallt. Do I presume these properties are also in Llangynllo Parish? I believe there is a Llynddu Farm in Plwmp, near Llandissiliogogo. I do not know of a Penyrallt.
Thomas' father is a Jno Jones (which I believe is an abbreviation of Jonathan?), a Labourer. Sarah's father is James James, also a Labourer.
So now I need to establish if one of these two was the cousin of Dafydd Siencyn Morgan, but also bearing in mind that it could be the wife of either of them. So, I need to locate a record of their marriage(s), which are pre-1837. How do I do this? at the record office or is there a way online?
Thanks
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Jno or Ino are both common abbreviations of John.
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Ah brilliant! Thank you for confirming.
As stated, there is a Llynddu farm in Plwmp (not far from Llandissiliogogo) and also there is a Penrallt in Nanternis, also near Llandissiliogogo. Seeing as they made their home in Llandissiliogog in 1841 census, I think its quite possible that these could be their residences at the time of their marriage.
Just need their Births next!
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Thinking that the name David Jenkin Morgan might imply David son of Jenkin Morgan,I looked for a will of Jenkin Morgan of Llan(n)granog(where the father was sexton).
Sure enough there is an 1812 date proved will(though written in 1801),wherein Jenkin Morgan nominates his children Dasvid,Jacob,Jane,Mary and James.His wife,Johannah,did not apparently survive to see the proving of the will.
Furrther,there is a burial record in Llangran(n)og of a Jacob Morgan born 1758,making him contemporary with David(born circa 1752),reinforcing the likelihood that this is the family in question.
However,I do have a little difficulty imagining cousins in the current conventional sense being born 60 years apart.
Are there any other clues in the obit you mentioned-other family members?
Regards
Roger
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There is a baptismal record for Sarah James in Llangynllo in 1815,parents James James and Elizabeth.A likely marriage is James James to Elizabeth Jones,Llandyfriog,1813:-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCL9-DXY
Regards
Roger
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Hi and thanks for your replies.
You are spot on there, that is indeed the will of Jenkin Morgan, the father of David Siencyn/Jenkin Morgan 1752-1844. I also have Jo(h)anas Will. Johana married Jenkin on 21st June 1797. She was his second wife as his first wife (Davids Mother) died when young. None of the articles pertaining to David in the National Library are able to shed light on Davids mothers name, so that is also a mystery.
Interestingly, Johanna was the mother of Christmas Evans 1766-1838 the one eyed minister from Llandysul. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Evans
So that is another well known name in this family tree.
I have been through the graveyard in Llangrannog but have been unable to find the grave of Jenkin (died 1812) or Joana (unsure as to exact date of death – cant make out the date on the will). Seeing as Jenkin was the sexton of the church I would assume he is buried there. The church has been rebuilt so the former church was probably smaller and so Jenkin and Joanna may lie under the foundations, or just simply not have a headstone.
Hi yes 60 years would appear to be quite something, I agree. Going back to my family tree – all I have is the funeral report of James Jones the son of Thomas Jones, Trewyddel, Gwenlli, Llandissiliogogo, (my GGG Grandfather) which states “His father Mr Thomas Jones Trewyddel was a cousin of Dafydd Siencyn Morgan to whom a memorial was unveiled at Llangoedmor two years ago”. It is the truth or inaccuracy of this sentence that everything rests upon. Ideally I’d like to locate the Obituary of Thomas Jones, died 1903. According to The National Probate Calendar his will states his address as Cefncoed, Llandissiliogogo – does anyone know how I order this will? The National Library said they didn’t hold it when I found the record for it, and told me to write to somewhere in Leeds, if I remember correctly.
Cracking work finding the baptism and marriage! Thanks so much! How do I go about ordering these records? Do I just locate them at the archives or National Library?
Thanks very much
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I haven't ordered a will myself,but the advice,address and form(PA1S) are here(I hope):-
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills
The records you are interested in are generally pre registration(1837) and while some may be on Family Search,detailed copies of parish registers(other than non-conformist) are generally on FindMyPast for which you will need to buy credits or take out a subscription.
A number of relevant addresses may be close to each other as follows(though inevitably there are many similar addresses,making it difficult to be sure)
The address in the probate,Cefn Coed is the same as the address in the 1901 census.There is such an address in Coed y Bryn,Llandysul.This is close to a property called Nant y Pobty(or Bobty),which is where Sarah James parents lived.Further,although it does not appear on current maps,there is also a Pen yr Allt close by.
Go to www.old-maps.co.uk and use the search term- Blaenllan-it is not relevant but convenient.
Choose the Llandysul option and when the map loads.use the up arrow to find two of the above in Coed Y Bryn.
Return to Blaenllan and then click on the map between there and Rhippin du(upper left).Then choose the earliest 1:2500 map from the historical list on the right.This should give Pen yr Allt.
There is a property transcribed as Llynddy in the early censuses in this area but I haven't located it on the map.
Whether it helps or is purely of academic interest,there is a reference in Y Cymmrodor(at www.archive.org) to a nephew of David Jenkin Morgan,called James Davies,the report being given by a Benjamin Williams who was the author of "Enwogion Ceredigion".
Regards
Roger
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Ah brilliant, so that is the place in Leeds. I will make an application on Monday, at £6 it is pretty cheap. Thank you.
I had not visited findmypast before and it appears they do a 14 day trial so I will sign up to see what I can find. Thank you for this suggestion.
I thought that the Cefncoed address given is the property directly behind his home, Trewyddel, but what you have suggested is very persuasive and using the maps as you say it is easy to see all those properties are within close distance of each other. Thank you for the detailed description it is very much appreciated. I also have an 1841 Census return for Cefn coed/Afon coed? and it has a John and Sara Jones aged 55, in residence. I wonder if these may be Thomas Jones parents, and if so, he then returned to their property to live with a sibling, before his death.
Nice find in Y Cymmrodor too, I am aquainted with Enwogion Ceredigion as Dafydd Siencyn Morgan has a piece included, but I cannot find this piece regarding James Davies - when I search it yields 0 results? Could I trouble you for the volume number please?
Thanks very much.
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The way I can find it is to search for- "archive.org" + "y cymmrodor" + "david jenkin morgan"
This should only yield one result.Open it and there should be a tab "see other formats".Use this an d then "full text".When this opens use edit/find on this page and use the search term -nephew.
Regards
Roger
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I'm sure you are right-his Cefncoed address is adjacent to Trewyddel and in Llandisilio sub district/Aberayron district.
The other Cefncoed is in Llangunllo parish/ Llandyssil sub district/Newcastle Emlyn district.
They are obviously contemporary on the 1901 census.
The 1901 census has him born in Llangunllo,but he is clearly not living there.
Regards
Roger
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However...
The address Cefncoed next to Trewyddel does not exist on censuses until he occupies it in 1901.
Perhaps he built(?)/named it after his childhood home and John and Sara are his parents.They are certainly a suitable age and his occupation is correct.
Regards
Roger
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Cant believe I'm still up but yes I was just considering your posts and was thinking the exact same thing! Thanks for your attention at this ungodly hour!
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Re: James Davies, its nice to know another name in the family, I also know of 2 other descendants of this family, neither from Dafydd Siencyn/Jenkin Morgan as he was childless, I believe. He did marry but I do not have any record of his wife, but one of the articles mentions that his wife predeceased him by quite some years.
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I have a little more data,some of which makes sense,some needs further examination.
Sarah James(c.1818) certainly had three siblings,Mary(c.1816),Elinor(c.1821) and Rachel(c.1824)
The records up to Elinor give Nantpopty(or similar).The record for Rachel gives Pen yr Allt as per the address for Sarah at marriage.
Looking at the family of John,Sara and Hanna(h) at Cefencoed,Llangunllo in 1841/1851 the record at FamilySearch for Hannah's baptism which might make sense is a non conformist one-in particular the 1821 record for John Jones and Sarah Davies
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X1TR-R8Z
I can find elsewhere a record that matches this,the abode is given as Nantpopty(!),but despite the transcription title being John Jones,the name on the record is Owen Owens.It appears he has been anglicised.
It is supposition of course that this is a relevant family at all,but if it is,this may have significant implications in trying to trace the connection you are looking for.
Regards
Roger
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Oh wow it would appear that you have found Sara's original surname, that being Davies. Assuming correct, then I now have the full names of Thomas and Sarah's mothers which I did not know, only a couple of days ago! Thank you.
I can find elsewhere a record that matches this,the abode is given as Nantpopty(!),but despite the transcription title being John Jones,the name on the record is Owen Owens.It appears he has been anglicised.
It is supposition of course that this is a relevant family at all,but if it is,this may have significant implications in trying to trace the connection you are looking for.
On consideration of the above, Natypobty was the address of the James family, not the Jones family of Cefncoed? Sounds a bit erroneous? Because the name on the record is Owen Owens, I would have thought that has been made in error, as Owen Owens is not an anglicization of John Jones it is? The name of John Jones is already anglicized - I would expect within a few generations further back there would be Welsh patronymic??
The name Owen Owens is also anglicized form of Owain, not John? Or am I confused? There is a lot of names in this thread mind! :)
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I wouldn't say the parents of Thomas are known yet.What I proposed is a possibility,and it is based on the supposition(no more) that the family at CefenCoed 1841 is that of Thomas(though no baptismal record has been found) and then that the baptism of Hannah is the right one(despite John Jones not being an anglicisation of Owen Owens?),with no marriage of this couple identified(Sarah may be the mother of Hannah,but not necessarily of Thomas-second marriage etc.).
I did wonder if it was correct there was some link between the James Davies and Sarah Davies,but I can't see how this might make Thomas a cousin of DJM/DSM!
It's al more than a bit tenuous
Regards
Roger
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I have re-examined the Hannah Jones record and it looks like I misread it due to the alignment of names and John Jones is the correct father,making it more likely that this is the correct family(though I think the alignment says he is a farmer rather than labourer(perhaps Ag Lab?))
The baptism for Thomas and the marriage for John/Sarah still needs to be identified.
Regards
Roger
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Hi and sorry for the delay, had tasks for the working week ahead (sigh).
I have ordered the will from Leeds, so that should arrive within a few weeks. Although the info within it will be of limited assistance (if any) to my attempts to find the link between these 2 families. Its always nice to have a 1st though, and this is my first order of a will. Great stuff.
Ah yes I see what you say regarding the possibility that Sarah is not the mother of Thomas. If I can locate the birth/christening of Thomas I hope it will be revealed. I will join the familysearch website one night this week and I will have a browse – fingers crossed! Hopefully I will locate the marriage for John and Sarah too.
I have used freereg before now but with very limited success. What are the differences between freereg and findmypast.com in the content they offer? Do you know?
Thanks
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If Thomas was born/baptised in Llangynllo,there is conflicting evidence as to whether the record will exist online in parish register data if he was "established church".
Genuki appears to say that the records 1784-1812 may have been lost
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CGN/Llangynllo/#ChurchRecords
The Family search IGI record appears to have a continuous record,or perhaps the years given are just the limits.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyCardigan.htm#L
(I have searched under the batch number and not found anything)
I haven't been down the route of Bishops Transcripts on microfilm myself but here is a reference that might work(does the Genuki page imply they might be at NLW?)
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=425631&disp=Bishop%27s+transcripts &columns=*,0,0
Given Hannah's record,of course,it may be Non-Conformist records that are appropriate.
Some of these are now available on Ancestry,otherwise it is BMDRegisters(subscription).
I don't know the comparative coverage of these two database nor that between FindMyPast and FreeReg for "established church".FamilySearch has elements of both,but less detail.
I also cannot find a marriage that fits,incluiding searching the NLW marriage bonds database.
You did say you had two other names in the DSM/DJM family.Who are they?Perhsaps their names might lead to a connection.
Regards
Roger
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You may already know,but this is possibly DJM's brother James living in the same property in 1841 in which DJM is reported as born
1841 1375 26/8 8 - transcribed as Pensingrig or Pensingrug
He is a mariner(given born 1771) with presumably his wife Sarah(given born 1778,Llangranog) in the 1851 census,by which time James has died.
1851 2482 504 19
With the widow Sarah is Anne Jones a grand daughter,aged 10,a schoolmasters daughter from Llangranog and a married daughter Elinor Lloyd(1813) with children.
It looks possible that Jenkin Morgan referred to his children in date order in his will.There is now
David(c.1752),Jacob(c.1758),Mary(?),Jane(?),James(1771) so his first wife's death would be between 1771 and 1797.
Regards
Roger
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This looks like James Morgan(s)' family
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/WLS-CARDIGANSHIRE/2004-10/1099045228
Although he marries a Sarah James(born c.1777) I can't see a connection with your James connections(e.g sister to James James?),but there is not sufficient info at the moment to entirely rule it out.
Regards
Roger
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In Jo(h)ana's will she mentions Mary Morgan.Perhaps this is DJM's sister and implies she was a spinster at that point,circa 1812 and also beyond typical child bearing age.This might mean one less candidate to consider for a connection.
There is a Mary Morgan of approximately the right age (given born 1761,"rounded") in the 1841 census at Glyn Coch Uchaf,Llangranog(actually Plwmp) at ref 1375 26/22 12.It's not obvious that any relatives are immediately close by.
Regards
Roger
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Well, I don’t know what to say or where to start but firstly I think you deserve a thank you as you have done so much since I was last online.
I will join up to findmypast for the trial period tomorrow night and will have a look for my Thomas Jones christening and also his parents John Jones and Sarah’s marriage.
It would appear to say that the Bishops Transcripts are held at the NLW, so I can always pencil that in for one day in the future, if findmypast is no help.
I have not long cancelled my ancestry membership as I found I was paying significant amounts for something I was not using. If needed though I will just sign up for another month and have a look. I will also look at this FreeBMD register to see what it has.
The two other living members of DSM/DJM family are descended from Anne Morgan, b 1802, daughter of James and Sarah Morgan – James being the brother of DSM/DJM. I have been in contact with one and I have had much help and info regarding the Morgans of Llangrannog. One descendant David Morgan of Llangrannog was a sea captain and moved to South Wales in the 1860’s.
All I know is that Jenkin Morgan’s father, outside of marriage, was (according to the docs in the NLW) David Morgans 1697-1770 squire of Llanborth, Penbryn, whos children mentioned in his will were Nicholas, Griffith, John, Margaret and finally James. So, no mention of Jenkin at all, but hardly surprising given the illegitimacy. This family member, like you, also questioned who Mary Morgan mentioned in Joanas Will was, along with Catherine Evans who is also mentioned (who may be the eldest sister of Christmas Evans).
I was also given the date of Jenkins marriage to Joana Lewis as 1797, in Llandysul and witnesses were John Jones : John Jones, Lochtyn: Thomas David. No Banns. This John Jones of Lochtyn in Llangrannog not only traveled to Llandysul for Jenkins marriage but was also a witness to the wills of both Siencyn in 1801 and Joana in 1812, so a possibly family member.
My correspondence with this descendant was left with me to find out who my ggg grandfather Thomas Jones Trewyddel, Llandissiliogogo’s parents were. I now know they were John Jones of Coed y Bryn, Llangynllo and possibly Sarah, also of Coedybryn. As far as I know, this family member I have been in contact with, knows no link to Llangynllo, except that Joana Lewis and Christmas Evans came from Tregroes, which I am starting to consider now.
For now I am going to draw up all the info I have as to be honest I really need to it as an aid as there are so many names to consider! :)
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There is an 1813 will at NLW for Elinor Jones,Lochtyn,Llangrannog who,amongst others names her "eldest son and heir" John Jones.
In 1841 there appears to be two families with this address,Evan Evans(1811) and Sarah Jones(1781-perhaps John's wife/widow?).
I'll see if I can make any connections.
Regards
Roger
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Oh wow nice find. The lochtyn link could be a possibility, and a very welcome one too as its my favorite place in the locality. Looking at my tree diagrams that I have just drawn, I guess a possibility is it could be a link between Thomas' parents John and Sarah Jones of Cefncoed and the Jones of Lochtyn.
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I may have found a different,and possibly,surprising,connection.
Because there was an assumption that Thomas' parents were identified through the repetition of the CefnCoed address,I decided to look again at the Thomas Jones(1813),Llangoedmor son of Joshua and Elizabeth who appeared to be the wrong one.While that presumably is still the case, there is a grant of administration at NLW for Joshua Jones(1826) to Elizabeth Jones his widow(which also declares her to be his only living kin?).Importantly,his address is given as Penllwyn du.
It is possible,of course that there are a number of similar addresses in the area,but it is the address given for the death of Dafydd Siencyn Morgan in his biography at NLW
http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-MORG-SIE-1752.html
This Joshua is given as 1777-1825,and Elizabeth approx. born 1775 in the 1841 and 1851 censuses(where her address is given as Penllwyn).
Perhaps John Jones,the father of your Thomas is related to Joshua or Elizabeth.I haven't yet identified births or a marriage for them.
Regards
Roger
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Hi thanks for your reply.
Re:Thomas Jones born Jan period 1813, son of Joshua and Elizabeth – This really confused me last year as I thought it was MY Thomas Jones! He was born and died the same year as my Thomas, and lived and died in Llandissiliogogo. As part of the research, I located this mans grave in Llandissiliogogo church yard. It quickly became apparent that this was not my Thomas Jones as was written on his grave that he was Capt. Thomas Jones, of Penllwyn. He is buried right next to his parents Joshua Jones 1777 – 1825 and Elizabeth (covered in moss so I couldn’t read it). It is quite something that they had the same name, and were born and died the same years.
Joshua and Elizabeths grave records them as of Penllwyndu. Their home, Penllwyndu, is a listed building just up the road from Llandissiliogogo church.
DSM/DJM house in Llangoedmor was also called Penllwyndu. A pub now sits on the spot, and still retains the name.
So, two homes of the same name. It would be interesting if there was any link found that way!
Right, I’m off to join up to FindMyPast. Will be back…
Thanks
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Right well I have located my ggg grandmothers christening that you mentioned earlier-on. It was the only result: Llangynllo, 1818, Sarah, daughter of Elizabeth and James James, Nantypopty, farmer. Ceremony performed by John Jones.
I tried baptism for Thomas Jones 1813 Cardiganshire but there are no results for Llangynllo or Troedyraur. The nearest in distance is a record from Llanfairorllwyn, which is about 2 miles away from Llangynllo.
I tried for the marriage of John Jones, but it does not let you refine you search to include the spouses name too, so it throws too many results to just click away on.
Clicking the first record above used 20 credits, which means 1/3 of my £6.95 for 60 credits is now gone! So I can only click 2 more items, looks to be very expensive way of going about family history.
I will visit Llangynllo and look for the graves of John/Sarah and James/Elizabeth. That way I will be able to hopefully read when they died and when they were born.
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I have also found the record for James James, of Llangynllo parish marriage to Elizabeth Jones 1813 of, and at Llandyfriog, just as you suggested.
I have 10 credits left. Its worth the £7 to find original scans of those documents though.
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I think part of the problem may lie in the likelihood that Thomas' family as evidenced by the baptism of Hannah of CefnCoed(1841 census) is non-conformist.
Records can be found variously at FamilySearch,Ancestry and BMDRegisters, but they get increasingly rare through the early nineteenth century,and are very rare before 1800 as far as I understand it.
Again.I will see what I can find-probably tomorrow now.
Regards
Roger
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Hi and thanks so much for your continued efforts.
I have looked and Ceredigion Archives list they hold the records for nonconformists :
Trewen, Brongwyn, Ind 3053
Hawen, Troedyraur, Ind 1814 - 1837 see also
Gynarthen, Penbryn, Ind 3803
and
Twrgwyn, Troedyraur, CM 1808 -1837 3811
so I will try to find time to visit the archives and take a look. I think you are right, these records seem to only go back to early 1800's.
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If you haven't already,perhaps you could contact the Cardiganshire Family History Society for further advice on records available.
Regards
Roger
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Yes I will do. Thanks. I used to be a member but not any more.
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Is Jenkin Morgan a common name? Is this the first wife?
Mary, wife of Jenkin Morgan, Sexton of this church; died 1786, aged 54.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=48176
There are others with the surname Morgan on this history site too - but unfortunately not an actual "Jenkin Morgan".
..............
I suppose you've seen this history article too?
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=48140
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Hi and thanks for your reply.
Jenkin morgan would not be a common name today, but it could very well be in the 17/18c just as Welsh patronymics were giving way to the naming system we currently use.
The links you gave are regarding Cardiff and South Wales? Everything to do with this family in this post so far is regarding Cardiganshire, which lies to the west of Wales?
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I'm not sure it helps very much,but there is a will of 1807 for a Thomas John of Lochtyn who looks like he might be the husband of Elinor Jones of the 1813 will.He mentions his wife Eleanor(sic) and all the same children(Sarah,Margaret,David) but,strangely,not John.
As far as I can tell he was Mayor in 1794,and may have had some involvement in Penbryn Chapel(money left to him in a will for the chapel).
The daughter Margaret is named in Elinor's wil as the wife of a James Timothy and her burial record suggests a birth of 1774 as a marker for the other children.There is a Sarah Jones,given born 1781("rounded") at Lochtyn in the 1841 census.
I haven't managed to trace David or,importantly,John yet,nor the marriage of the parents
Regards
Roger
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Right well today after work I called in to Llangynllo church and right in front of the front door to the church is the grave of James James Pen'rallt Nantypobty d 25.3.1825 at 40 years old. So birth date of 1785, presumably in Llangynllo or surrounding area.
Elizabeth died 31.1.1865 aged 82. So birth date of 1783.
Couldn't locate John and Sarah Jones, so might have to try any chapels that are to be found nearby.
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Elizabeth's record(1865) gives her as of Cwmbach Llangunllo at the time.
Previous census refs
1861 4185 84 16 Cwmbach with daughter Rachel and granddaughter Anne Harries
1851 2482 533 16 Cwmbach ,with daughters Mary,Rachel and granddaughter Ann Harris(sic)
1841 1377 17/4 3 Llanfair Trefligen with daughters Mary and Rachel and James James(1838)
The granddaughter belongs to the remaining daughter Elinor and Benjamin Harries,married LLangunllo 1841-one of the witnesses was a Thomas Jones.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for your reply. I see, so after the death of James it appears that the family have moved to Cwmbach. I will now update my records, thank you very much for that!
Another member on here has kindly searched for baptism of Thomas Jones 1813 and has not been able to locate it either.
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Perhaps it's worth looking for a Thomas John-I get the impression(no more)that patronymics may still be playing a part at this time.
Regards
Roger
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Given that John Jones(Cefencoed,1841,1851) is given born Penbryn in the 1851 census-there is a John Jones burial 1854,Independent,Glynarthen,Penbryn(as per Hannah's baptism).Unfortunately I can't find an equivalent for Sarah,so perhaps this is just another name/place coincidence.
Regards
Roger
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Wow, John Jones Cefncoed was born in Penbryn parish? this sounds like it could be a possible lead? I will locate his grave after work one evening!
I wonder if he was a descendant of the Morgans of Llanborth, and that is how my Thomas Jones claimed the relationship to DSM/DJM
Thanks again!
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I didn't realise you hadn't seen the census data.It is only a single reference,.but better than nothing.In the same census Sarah is given as born Bettws Evan(Bettws Ifan).
Regards
Roger
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I have the 1841, but I do not have the 1851. FindMyPast doesnt seem to have the 1851 either, typically! I'm still trying to find it right now...
FindMyPast census search only lets you see the county and reg district when it displays search results so all you can do is click away, which means much credit is needed?
Think I much prefer ancestry, it's a shame they don't have the parish registers.
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1851 ref is HO107 2482 541 9 or enter search details
John Jones 1781 Labourer,born Penbryn
Regards
Roger
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Ah got it thanks! For some reason when I was searching within the 1851 parameters it wasn't coming up. Oh well, I'm happy now. Thanks again.
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This could be the infamous "red herring barking up the wrong tree" but after yesterday's search for Elizabeth James who lived at Cwm Bach,I found a will proven 1820 for a John Jones of Cwm Bach Llangunllo,who had a son John Jones(and I wondered if this might be Thomas' father).Looking for burials that might give ages is proving tricky but I have found a John Jones died 1819(when the will was written),buried at Troedyraur,with an address that looks like Cwmbwch.He is given as born 1766 a reasonable time for him to be Thomas' grandfather??
Regards
Roger
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There appears to be both Cwmbach and Cwmbwch under Llangunllo,so a renewed search for a John Jones("senior") is required.In the wiil his wife is given as Rebecca(or similar) and there is a reasonable burial record for her,given 1758-1821.
Later mod:
Having re-read the will,the address is Cwmbwch not Cwmbach,so not relevant
Regards
Roger
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I must admit Cwmbwch and Cwmbach are very similar, so if I had made the discovery, I'd still be considering it! Cwmbwch doesnt actually make sense in Welsh, unless it is a misspelling of Cwm-Bwlch.
Because the will writers were writing in English, I wouldn't be surprised if Cwmbach was Anglesised to Cwmbwch? Thats my thought on it. I can certainly have a nosy round Troedyraur churchyard, as the grave would not spell the house-name incorrectly.
Right, to work! Thanks for your reply.
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Well I have located Cwmbwch (!) near Rhydlewis, (inbetween Rhydlewis and Ffostrasol), so not too far away at all. I cannot find a Cwm Bach that still exists in the area though.
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I think there is a Cwmbach Farm at SA44 5SL,which is Rhydlewis.
However,re reading the will,the John Jones(beneficiary) is being mooted as training as a carpenter,possibly at his mother's discretion.Your John Jones would have been married with Thomas as a six or seven year old by this time.They don't sound like the same person.As I said,probably barking up the wrong tree.
Regards
Roger
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Ah we have one and the same re: Cwmbach/Cwmbwch - it is listed on the mapping system I use at work as the latter - which doesn't make as much sense as word! (as far as I know my Welsh anyway!)
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I'm struggling to find an alternate line of enquiry at the moment -I've gone back to the best known fact - Thomas' marriage - and am trying to review any connections e.g Llynddu.
Regards
Roger
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Please don't worry too much about this, you have given me so much of your time and I am very grateful for it!
Put your virtual feet up, you deserve a rest!
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I'm not sure whether this has been found before but Llynddu is "next door" to Lletty in Llandissiliogogo,where Thomas and Sarah are found in 1841,1851(incorrectly transcribed as Portis and Sletty respectively on FindMyPast).Looking at the 1841 original there is a mixing/scattering of addresses as there also appears to be a Margaret Davies(60),David Davies(11),John Davies(7) and David Morgans(15) associated with the Lletty address(1841 ref 1375 17/19 4).I wonder if these Davies are associated with James Davies the nephew of DJM
In the Llynddu address(es) there is the family of Thomas and Rachel Williams,who have a son Benjamin-I hoped he might be the one from Y Cymmrodor,but he is the wrong age.
Regards
Roger
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Hi sorry havnt been on in a while, been super busy. But I have been thinking about this every day, and I have been to the Archives, with small results.
That is interesting that Llynddu has been recorded as ‘Portis’ in 1841/51. How do you know this please? I havn’t been able to locate Llety on a map yet, but I cannot remember trying to do so coming to think of it!
Back to the archives - what I found is insubstantial but good for peace of mind nonetheless. Thomas Jones born c1813 in Troedyraur/Llangynllo is not in the parish registers as being baptised in 1813.But this might be because Troedyraur starts in 1813 (so no way of checking 1812) and Llangynllo registers are lost up until Feb 1813 (so need to go to NLW to check bishops transcripts.) However, in the Llangynllo registers there is an 1816 record – 16.12.1816 – Thomas, son of John and Sarah Jones Blaenbach-crydd, Farmer, so I have checked out where this is, and it is actually in Coed y Bryn and is not far away from Cefncoed at all. They are Farmers. Bearing in mind this is a very small village today, go back to 1813 and I imagine there would only have been a handful of families living there, so this really could be Thomas’ baptism record, except it is for 1816 and not 1813 as the census’ suggest. From what I understand of family history so far, this is possible?
I checked all the Independent baptisms as well, and they generally start around the time of his approximate birth, so I cannot go earlier than 1813/14, which is a shame. Anyway, whilst I was nosing through the Independent Baptisms I saw Thomas’ proposed sisters’ record too. She was born Hanna in 1821 to Thomas and Sarah Jones and their address is given as Nantypobty?! Which is supposed to be the farm of Thomas future wife parents?!
-All I can think of is that Thomas was born at Blaen-bach-crydd, and was baptised at Llangynllo church, but by 1821, his parents had moved to Nantypobty?! And had birthed his sister Hanna and had her baptised independently.
Or alternatively, the vicar/clergy incorrectly entered the family’s address.
I still havn’t found where they are buried and the burial records compiled by the DFHS at the archives did not reveal anything, but I was rushing at that point as had to get back to work.
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I have just finished a lengthy reply re addresses,which disappeared when I tried to preview/modify it.Summary relating to Thomas and Sarah plus parents(not always identified directly but by interpolation from nearby census addresses.)
1.Lletty SA44 6JW
2.Trewyddel SA44 6JJ(Cefncoed adjacent)
3.Penyrallt Not confirmed(too many options)
4.Nantypopty SA44 5JL
5.Cwmbach SA44 5LS (1841 at ? Llanfair Trefligan SA44 5TY)
6.Cefncoed SA44 5LN (Llangynllo- John/Sarah)
I will have a look at the address you uncovered.Census birth and parish baptism dates are not always identical,sometimes years apart.
I'm also trying to look at James Davies,nephew as thishould imply either Jane or Mary Morgan married a Davies.
Regards
Roger
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Forgot one!
There is a Llynddu reasonably close to Trewyddel at SA44 6JP.
Roger
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Hi yes that right there ^ is the Llynddu I think Thomas quoted on his marriage cert.
I hate it when the reply dissapears. Happened to me about a week ago on another site. Drives you mad! Sorry to hear you fell victim whilst helping me!
I would really like to find where John and Sarah Jones are buried, as I like finding the grave and reading it! I also want to go to NLW to read the bishops transcripts, but that will have to wait for a bit sadly.
Oh I have not got Elizabeth in 1851 / 1861 so need to buy more credits at FindMyPast to view - will do that soon. This will then reveal where Elizabeth was born - possibly Llandyfriog as that was where she was married.
Blaenbach-crydd is at SA44 5LR.
Thanks
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Details of Elizabeth James in 1851/61 are in a previous reply.
Regards
Roger
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I can't make anything of the Blaen Bach Crydd record.The 1841 census has a John and Ann Jones (born 1790s) and family,no obvious relation-no other records that might help like wills etc.
The only record(s) that might make some sense for burial of John and Sarah is at Glynarthen.
John is given as born Penbryn in the only census giving birthplace and Sarah is given as either Penbryn or Bettws Evan.There is a burial for John Jones (1781-1854) Penbryn parish,Glynarthen.The nearest record for a Sarah here is (1791-1878),and this makes identifying Sarah in 1871 problematic.
I thought the following might be of interest:-
http://www.freereg.org.uk/parishes/cgn.htm
Regards
Roger
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Ok I will be visting Glynarthen Chapel this weekend hopefully. Thank you.
I have bought the book Hanes Plwyf Llangynllo (History of Llangynllo Parish) by Evan Davies 1905. I have read half of it and the only related material is that regarding Elizabeth of Pengallt (Penrallt) Nantypobty in 1837 as receiving 17s per week from the Parishioners at the Vestry Meeting. Presumably receiving aid as a Widow.
I have also heared back from HM Courts and Tribunals with a copy of Thomas Jones, Trewyddel 1903 will.
Executors were son Thomas Jones, Trewyddel (Blacksmith), James Owen, Esgereinon (Farmer) and Joshua Davies, Tiresgob (Farmer).
Witnesses were Evan Morgans Lluesb fach Sinod Inn (Farmer) and Edward John Edwards Brynrhiwgaled, Cross Inn (Minister).
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Well Glynarthen did not yield anything, sadly.
In a last ditch attempt I am going to visit Pisgah chapel one day soon as that is where later family are buried.
If anyone can assist, I am looking for death/burial of John and Sarah Jones of Cefncoed, Coedybryn, Llangynllo parish, Cardiganshire.
Last record I have of John is 1851 aged 70 at above address.
Last record I have of Sarah is 1861 aged 78 at above address.
I will be back.
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Thanks for the update.I'll have another look to see if I can find any radical alternative.Best not to lose sight of the fact that there is reliance on the "equivalence" of the Cefncoed addresses for the correct parents,nothing else.
Regards
Roger