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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: tomk92 on Friday 30 March 12 21:02 BST (UK)
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Hello
I'm a Norwegian who is looking for a person, willing to assist in a "hunt" for a certain John Moses, b. Norway, 1781, to Isaac Moses of Fenton, Cumberland an Norwegian wife Karen Barbara Thode. This John Moses, born in Norway, emigrated to England in the early 1830ties and died in Limehous, London ja. 29th, 1849, buried St. Annes, feb. 04, 1849.
To get a good prospective of the "case", I think it's best to introduce what I know about the english part of the family.
I do not know if anyone has done a genealogical research of Isaac's descendants or ancestors, but it's worth a try.
This is what I know:
Isaac Moses, b. 1738, emigrated to Kristiansund (Christiansund) Norway, 1768. He emigrated together with cousin Thomas Moses, b. 1752,d. 1822 Norway). This Thomas was born in Newcastle. It is not known to me if it is Newcastle upon Tyne or Newcastle under Lyme.
The reason for the emigration was to work in uncle John Moses' company in Kristiansund. "Old" John Moses had returned to England, 1761, after having built a prosperous business in Norway. Upon returning to England, he left the business in the hands of another nephew, George Moses.
"Old" John was not entirely satified with George's way of running the business, hence the change to the other nephews.
Thomas never married and died in Kristiansund 1822. In his will, his 5 sister are mentioned. I will come back to them if any of you may be interested.
Isaac Moses married Karen Barbara Thode, 1780. She died, giving birth to "young" John Moses, 1781. Isaac remarried, with Anna Bolette Tvedt, and the couple had 9 children born to them. All in Kristiansund. Isaac died in 1807.
"Young" John Moses was extremely talented as a businessman. He "studied" business, in England, with his granduncle "old" John, from the age of 17 til 20. "Young" John became one of Kristiansund's most prosperous business men, running an import/export trade with whatever was legal and gave profit.
I 1801, he fathered a son, Isaac Christian Moses, out of wedlock. He had promised the son's mother marriage, but did not stand by this promise and was taken to court.
In 1804, he married Anna Holck Tordenskjold. They got 7 children, alltogether, 4 of them, sons, grew up.
In 1807, age 26, he controlled one third of Kristiansund's wessels. In 1814, he was elected as Kristiansund's representative to the congregation of "able men" at Eidsvoll, to form the Norwegian Constitution.
In 1818, as a final result of problems, caused mainly by the Napoleonic war(s), "young" John's company wnt bankrupt. The authorities needed 6 years to sort out the final economic result of this situation.
During this period, John's marriage to Anna Holck Tordenskjold was "annulled" in 1823.
Story says "Young" John tried to re-establish business and that he finally emigrated to England, together with two of his sons (they are not named in the stories).
According to the stories told, "young" John worked as a ship-broker in or around London. He died Jan 29th, 1849 and was buried Feb. 4th, 1849 in St. Anne's, Limehouse. London. UK.
The bicentennial of the congregation, to form Norway's Constitution, in 1814, is approaching. The National Archive of Norway and one of the major organisations for genealogists, DISNORGE, has launched a collaboration to discover what became of the descendants of thes 112 men who gathered at Eidsvoll in 1814. I live in Kristiansund and I have taken responsibility for the "young" John Moses story. My major challenge now, is to find tracks of him in England.
If any of you find this interesting, I would be more than pleased to hear from you. I may be contacted on the emailaddress: *
Tom Kaasen
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Hi,
Welcome to Rootschat
You may get a better response if this was placed under the London site "Tower Hamlets". Ask the moderator to move it for you :)
Are you, also tracking John's father Isaac, who was from Cumberland?
Familysearch.org shows an Isaac Moses c:28 June 1738 in the village of Hayton by Brampton (very near to Fenton) to a Samuel Moses.
Isaac's marriage to Anna Tvedt is listed with Familysearch.org (19 Dec 1788), as well as the birth of a daughter Karoline Benedicte Moses.
Regards
Richard
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Thanks for your advice!
The reason I placed it here, was that I thought I had to establish an understanding about which Moses-family I was "hunting" for; if Isaac's father could be found, maybe another genealogist would know the "destiny/life-cycle" of this particular grandson, John Moses b. 1781, Norway.
If I knew Isaac's father, it would maybe be easier to find relevant familytrees on Ancestry.
The reason I said Isaac was born in Fenton, is that I saw the template for the chiseling of his tombstone, in the National archive this week. I had ran out of battery on my camera and was not able to photographing it, but it definitively said "born in the town of Fenton".
The descendants of the second marriage are all well covered.
I discovered this morning that "old" John settled in Kingston upon Hull and married Margareth Etherington. They had a daughter, Jane Mary Moses, b. 1765, d. 1800. She married Audrey Beauclerk, but that's another story.
This document links "old" John to Kingston upon Hull:
Ref No. D/X 649/195
Probate of the will of John Moses, late of Christian-sound, merchant, now of Kingston upon Hull, dated 2 February 1771 devising: Old Park, Broadwood and Stanner Close and other lands in the parishes of Wolsingham, Stanhope and Lanchester; Kings Meadow and the fishery in Northumberland, near Newcastle, upon trust for his daughter Jane Moses as specified with remainder to the issue of his nephew George Moses and cousin Thomas Moses of Newcastle upon Tyne. Codicil devising his house at Ferraby, Yorkshire to his wife for life, 24 April 1773
[The testator drew up the above will himself and expressed considerable distrust and dislike of lawyers and more particularly his wife's kinsmen and his nephew George. There are stringent conditions regarding marriage in general, continued residence in England, marriage to women of English nationality and an obligation to take the surname Moses incumbent upon the tenant in possesion of the settled estates]
(parchment, 3 membranes)
This document also states that Thomas' hometown is Newcastle upon Tyne.
Your Samuel Moses, from the christening in Hayton/Brampton, then has to be brother of "old" John Moses. He is said to born i Berwick upon Tweed, but to have stayed in Newcastle, before emigrating to Norway.
Tom Kaasen
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Hi Tom,
Sorry but I thought you were tracking "young" John who emigrated to the UK (London area) so that is why I recommended the switch.
Quote:
"I'm a Norwegian who is looking for a person, willing to assist in a "hunt" for a certain John Moses, b. Norway, 1781, to Isaac Moses of Fenton, Cumberland an Norwegian wife Karen Barbara Thode. This John Moses, born in Norway, emigrated to England in the early 1830ties and died in Limehous, London ja. 29th, 1849, buried St. Annes, feb. 04, 1849."
If you are tracking Isaac then Cumberland is the correct place for this (maybe it should be placed in both areas then)
Richard
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Thank you again
I'm a little uncertain about moving this topic to London because:
If "young" John Moses lives without a family, in a "crowded" area like London, who would know of him there?
I thought it would be more likely that someone, with knowledge of this particular Moses-family, would "recognize" the family and maybe already have the knowledge I'm seeking.
On the other hand; if "young" John Moses married, and even had children born to him in London, there would be a fair chance someone, following the London-area, knew that part better, even without knowing the connection to Cumberland.
Having the same topic in two places is not a good solution, I think, considering most contributors will only know about one of the places.
I think I will keep the topic in Cumberland for a little while, and maybe ask for it to be moved, if I get no information.
Tom Kaasen
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Hi Tom,
Been doing some searching for Isaac (1738) in Cumberland (mentioned in my earlier post) and although there seems to be numerous Moses family members in the general area of Carlisle I can find no other Isaac mentioned. It might benefit you to ask for a "look Up" and if a Rootschat member is in the area they could go to the appropriate records office to find Isaac's birth certificate and from that you should get his parents.
As for John, I have checked shipping brokers in London for that time..nothing. I have checked newspapers and other publications ..nothing. You mentioned he left Norway with two of his sons, finding their names would obviously help but as you say the "stories" do not give their names.
It does not help that there are Moses's in just about every town and county and in countries all over the world. I have looked for any trees with connections to Norway and again nothing.
Hope someone with an active tree sees your post. Good Luck
Richard
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Thank you once again.
"young" John's sons are:
0. Isaac Christian Moses, b. 1801 out of wedlock. I think he's "sorted out" as staying in Norway
1. Isaac Christopher Moses, b. Nov. 18, 1804. In the divorce-papers 1823-1826, he is named Isaac Christian, although the parish records name him Isaac Christopher. I have no information about him, except that I know he was alive during the separation/divorce-process 1823-1826.
2. Hans Thomas Lange Moses, b. May 31, 1807. I do not know anything about him, like # 2
3. Carl Jacob Lund Moses, b. Nov. 28, 1809. He was "contracted" to be a pharmacist, but became a military officer. He married in Fredrikstad, Norway, 1838 and had 4 children with his wife in the period from 1837 til 1847. He died 1851. I doubt he could have travelled with his father to England.
4. John Moses, b. Sep. 7, 1813. John studied to become a priest. He served as a priest in the Norwegian church. he retired 1880 and died 1881.
I find it most likely that, if any, his two oldest son would be the ones to follow him to England.
I have NO traces of them in Norwegian sources, but then there is a problem that we don't have available sources/censuses (or at least searchable sources) between 1801 and 1865.
There is a "minister" John Moses, b. 1845, in the US_Census_1900_Seattle, which is registered to be Norwegian, with BOTH parents born in Norway. His year of immigration is stated to be 1871. This John Moses does not show up in the Norwegian Census_1865. A theory may be that he could be a son of #1 or # 2, being born in Norway and raised in England. Although the US_Census_1900 tells this John Moses immigrated 1871, it doesn't give any information about from where he immigrated.
"young" John Moses has a grandson, John Christian Tordenskjold Moses, b. 1840 -d. 1912, who became a Lutheran minister in Decorah, Iowa. Do not spend time, wondering whether he could be the John Moses, b. 1845.
Tom Kaasen
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The will of John Moses, Ship Chandler, of No. 3 Fore St, Limehouse St. Anne, Middlesex. Leaves his estate to his "Faithful Housekeeper", Ann Row, Spinster. Will dated 10 Jan 1849. Probate granted 1 May 1849.
In 1841 census, Fore St., Limehouse St. Anne,
John Mosses, 60, Ship Chandler, N,
Anne Mosses, 40, N,
Eliner Mosses, 70, N,
HO107/701/8//1
N means born in England, but not in this County. No relationships given in 1841 census.
Alan.
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Thank you for the information about the will.
It is a known historical fact (in Kristiansund) that John Moses died in Limehouse in 1849. The will gives his profession and also tells he had no close relatives to inherit him. At least he was not married at the time of writing the will.
I'm more curious about the 1841-census. I have seen this earlier, and failed to understand whether this could be relevant to my project or not.
I also find a Anna Brown in this household, age 15. N
Is it possible to obtain the will of John Moses from the source who holds it?
Tom Kaasen
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Tom,
pm me your email address and I will send you a copy of the will.
The 1841 census looks like a good candidate for John, Right name, right age, right occupation, living in the same street as at his death. He also has a young Ann Moses living with him, maybe the housekeeper Ann Row living as his wife. The "Not born in County" may just be a mistake.
His burial record at Tower Hamlets, 4 Feb 1849, says he was aged 68, of Limehouse.
His Death Cert may give more info such as his address and name of Informant, as well as Cause of death.
There is a John Moses death registered, March quarter 1849 in Stepney District (includes Limehouse), Volume 2 Page 389. Probably be the right one. You can obtain a copy here :
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Alan.
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Thank you again!
The will is a little hard to read, due to blurry letters. But word by word, I think I will get it right.
I think the registrar of the 1841-census may have misjudged the household (maybe rightfully?) hence giving all grownups the surname Mosses.
I read the will as "my faithful housekeeper Ann Row, residing with me".
I ordered the death certificate and be sure; I'm really looking forward to receiving it by "snail-mail".
Tom Kaasen
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Hello Tom,
You may already have this :
1846 London Post Office Directory :
Moses, John & Co., ship chdlrs & com.agents, 47 Fore St., Limehouse.
Let us know the contents of the death cert when you get it.
Alan.
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I did not have this.
I'm a newbee to UK-sources and don't know my way around yet.
I will post the essence of the death certificate when I receive it.
Tom Kaasen
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To diverge slightly, to the cousin - a Thomas Moses was baptized at All Saints, Newcastle upon Tyne in June 1752, the son of Thomas. There are also records of the baptisms of Mary, Elizabeth, Margaret, Ann and Jane, as well as another boy, John. All are recorded as " child of Thomas Moses", though of course they may not be the same Thomas Moses. In Jane's record it states that her father is a butcher. Does this tie in with the information you have?
Newcastle upon Tyne of course has long established links with Norway.
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Hello
I guess you have found the Thomas Moses who was born June 1752 in Newcastle and who emigrated to Norway 1768. He would only be 16 years at the time. Thomas never married in Norway. He died 1822
The probate of Thomas lists 5 sisters in Newcastle (in this order):
Ann Wardle, listing 5 children
Mary Drummond, listing 4 children
Elizabeth Weatherby, listing 2 children
Jane Richarby, listing 2 children
Margereth Cook, listing 5 children
and finally, living in northern Norway
Ann Thomina, no children mentioned
I'm not sure the will/probate mentions any John, but then I haven't studied it too well. Took a few photos of pages who. I thought, could contribute to deciding which family this is.
"Old" Thomas should be "Old" Johns brother, originating from Berwick upon Tweed, according to what is part of Kristiansund's history.
As to long established links, I do hope there will be a new ferry-route soon!
Tom Kaasen
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The problem of the missing John is soved - I've found his burial at All Saints Newcastle.
June 20th 1798 - John Moses aged 32 of Red Heugh (pronounced, roughly, red - ee - uff), parish of Gateshead, son of Thomas Moses, butcher. So he died long before his brother Thomas.
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I have found references to the wills of both the John Moses who died in 1798 and his father, Thomas the butcher, who died in 1803, on the University of Durham's list of wills. Sadly, these are not yet available on line, but if they are of any significance to you, the website explains how to get them
http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/neisearch.php
Click on "Advanced Search" and put Moses in the surname box and you will get a list of all the people called Moses who have left wills.
I haven't had a lot of luck with the Moses family in Berwick. If you want to track them down there, put a request on the Northumberland board. There should be people there who have access to the Berwick records.
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Thank you Gordie Mag!
Now I know this is a possibility.
Most wanted for me, right now, is to follow leads concerning "young" John Moses' company in Limehouse. I will post a query that area.
I also read another, handwritten source, in the local museum, saying that the oldest. legitimate son, Isaac Christopher Moses, b. Nov. 11, 1804, had married an unknown woman 1824. he is also referred to as Isaac Christian Moses in the settlement from the divorce, strange enough.
Tom Kaasen
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Update as promised
I received the death certificate of "young" John Moses today.
The registrations on the certificate:
When: Twentyninth January 1849
Where: Looks like "93 Fore Street Limehouse"
Name: John Moses, Male
Occupation: Ship Chandler
Cause of death: Morbus Cordis Certified (general heart disease?)
Present at death: Ann Read, 10 Ropemakers fields, Limehouse
Registrar:Adolphus Barnett
His address in the 1841 Census and in the will was 3 Fore Street, Limehouse. Could 93 Fore Street has been som kind of infirmary?
I found Ann Read in the 1851 Census. She is head and "in receipt of parish relief" and she still lives in 10 Ropemaker Street, Limehouse.
Tom Kaasen
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Could 93 Fore Street has been som kind of infirmary?
It appears to have been an ordinary house (3 occupants) in 1861. :)
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Thank you
So much for that theory....
Do you know the mid-nineteenth century Limehouse?
Tom Kaasen
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Hi Tom,
Very interesting story you tell, with lots of information.
I just thought I would answer a few queries you have mentioned.
Limehouse if you do a search for it, is North of the Thames. In
the 1800's it included the Limehouse, the Regent's and ship building docks.
So can see why John moved to this part of London.
I think you would have to surmise most of the things he did in those
days in London as there is not much passing down of verbal history
in England as children were seen and not heard as the saying goes.
There seems to be a good paper trail for your family which as I said
is a good history you have already found.
Fenton is one mile from Hayton where he was christened. It was just a
small hamlet in those days and Hayton was probably a small village.
The Newcastle you ask about looks definitely that it is Newcastle upon Tyne.
Lots of people moved there in the past for the work which surrounded this City
especially from the Northern Counties like Cumberland, etc.
Information for Cumberland now Cumbria archives are held at Carlisle. I am going there
on 21st May so hope to have a look at the records for my family the Routledges.
If you send me a private mail, just let me know what it is you want to know
and it also lets me remember that I am helping someone when I go there.
I try and help quite alot of people and they get lost on here laugh.
I cant promise anything but might as well look for Moses as well.
regards Sandymc
Hope you manage to get all your information you need for 2014
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Nice offer!
I have a little more information on the family-structure in Newcastle. I have to "tidy it" a bit before I pass it on, but I will certainly do that.
I'm also curious about whether there are any Scottish roots, as the Moses' in Kristiansund did lots of business with Scottish merchants in Kristiansund.
Tom Kaasen
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From a document here, it looks like Fenton Farm was still owned by the Moses Family up until 1881.
http://www.chapelbooks.co.uk/cumberland.htm
"[Hayton document] Sale Particulars of Property at Fenton
Printed particulars for the 1881 sale of 'about 72 acres of arable, meadow and pasture land with a farmhouse & outbuildings'. .... showing a very fragmented estate (tenanted by Joseph Atkinson) with fields scattered between Corry House to the West and Fenton Lane Head to the East. In the small print are mentioned several members of the Moses family from which it can be inferred that the sale of the property arose from the death of Frances, widow of John Moses."
From the National Probate Register : "30 May 1878. Under £4,000. The will of Frances Moses, formerly of Fenton in the Parish of Hayton ......, Spinster, who died 11 May 1878, was proved at Carlise by .... and John Moses, of Newcastle on Tyne, Draper, the Nephew".
Unmarried Frances Moses is a Farmer at Fenton in 1851 - 1871 census. In 1841 census she is aged 35, living at Fenton with William Moses, 70, presumably her father.
Alan.
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The last reply - about John Moses, the draper - reminded me of Moses' shop in Newcastle. This was a very successful draper's shop in Grainger Street, a prime shopping area. It survived until 1960. Tyneside Archives says that the Moses family came from Cumberland.
There is also a very expensive house in Gosforth, now a suburb of Newcastle , up for sale and described as "built by John Moses".
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In 1871 census at 30 Cumberland Row, Westgate, Newcastle :
John Moses, Head, Mar, 66, Draper, b. Fenton, Cumberland,
and wife and children.
Looks to be Frances Moses brother. The nephew of Frances, John Moses, Draper of Newcastle may be his son.
This John Moses entry in the National Probate Calendar :
12 Sep 1874, effects under £18,000. The will of John Moses, late of 212 Westgate Rd., Newcastle, Linen and Woolen Draper, who died 24 May 1874 ...
Clearly a successful man.
So, from records on Familysearch, it looks like this John Moses and Frances were both children of William Moses, and Sarah Railton.
John Moses, baptized 30 Sep 1804, Hayton by Brampton.
Frances Moses, baptized 4 Jun 1809, Hayton by Brampton.
William Moses, aged 70 in 1841 census, was baptized 1 Feb 1769, Hayton by Brampton, son of John Moses.
And a John Moses was baptized 12 Oct 1724, Hayton by Brampton, son of Samuel Moses. Maybe the oldest brother of Isaac Moses (b.1738) who therefore got to inherit the farm and pass it on to his oldest son William. Meanwhile the younger sons, as was the way at the time, moved on to make their fortunes elsewhere.
Clearly a very successful family.
Alan.
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Thank you for "digging" in this matter.
I have received bits of information about the Moses family in Fenton, early 18th century.
As we know of three nephews, of "old" John, named Moses, he must have had at least three brothers.
My informant has noted these 4 brothers:
Samuel Moses, b. appr. 1703
John Moses, b. 1713 ("old" John)
Thomas Moses, b. 1724
Matthew Moses, b. appr. 1694
In Kristiansund it is a "fact" that "old" John Moses was born in Berwick-upon-Tweed and that he lived in Newcastle prior to moving to Kristiansund.
I think it's correct that the brother, who lived in Fenton, was Samuel. He may have been born appr. 1703 and may have died 9th. Oct. 1766.
My informant has noted 4 children to Samuel and wife Mary?(supposed to have been buried 25. March 1781):
Anne Moses, b. 20. May 1723 Hayton by Brampton
John Moses, b. 12. Oct. 1724 Hayton by Brampton
Samuel Moses, b. 1. May 1732, Hayton by Brampton
Isaac Moses, b. 29. June 1738, Hayton by Brampton (the one going to Kristiansund.
Isaac Moses names one of his sons Samuel in Norway.
When "old" John returns to England, appr. 1764, he marries Margareth Etherington and settles in Kingston-upon-Hull. They have one daughter born to them; Mary Jane Moses, b. appr.1766. Mary Jane Moses marries Aubrey Beauclerck, 6th Duke of Albans, 1788. The couple has one daughter born to them; Mary Beauclerck, b. 1791. Mary Jane dies 1800. Lady Mary Beauclerck married George Coventry, 8th Earl of Coventry. She died 1845 in Italy.
Tom Kaasen
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Here is references to documents on "Old" John's marriage to Margareth Etherington etc.
I have found this on Ancestry and I don't know which archive they reside in. It is definately "old" John, as there are references to "late of Christian-sound, merchant, now of Kingston upon Hull" and "Thomas Moses, George Moses and Isaac Moses at Christiansound".
Ref No. D/X 649/193
24 January 1763
(1) John Moses of Kingston upon Hull, merchant
(2) Margaret Etherington of Kingston upon Hull, spinster
(3) Henry Etherington of Kingston upon Hull, Esquire; John Porter and Thomas Wilkinson of Kingston upon Hull, Esquires Articles of Agreement for the marriage settlement of (1) and (2). Each party bringing in £5000 to be settled on (3) in trust for (1) and (2) and their issue as specified.
Ref No. D/X 649/194
Consent of John and Margaret Moses to the sale of stock by the trustees of their marriage settlement, 6 March 1766
(1 paper)
Ref No. D/X 649/195
Probate of the will of John Moses, late of Christian-sound, merchant, now of Kingston upon Hull, dated 2 February 1771 devising: Old Park, Broadwood and Stanner Close and other lands in the parishes of Wolsingham, Stanhope and Lanchester; Kings Meadow and the fishery in Northumberland, near Newcastle, upon trust for his daughter Jane Moses as specified with remainder to the issue of his nephew George Moses and cousin Thomas Moses of Newcastle upon Tyne. Codicil devising his house at Ferraby, Yorkshire to his wife for life, 24 April 1773
[The testator drew up the above will himself and expressed considerable distrust and dislike of lawyers and more particularly his wife's kinsmen and his nephew George. There are stringent conditions regarding marriage in general, continued residence in England, marriage to women of English nationality and an obligation to take the surname Moses incumbent upon the tenant in possesion of the settled estates]
(parchment, 3 membranes)
Ref No. D/X 649/196
Volume containing:
The will of John Moses of Kingston upon Hull, Esquire 2 February 1771; queries and answers of counsel regarding the terms of the will; various estate accounts, lists of rents etc., miscelleaneous bonds, agreements, promissory notes; the will of Jane Etherington of Kingston upon Hull, spinster, dated 13 June 1766; inventories; surrenders of property in the Manor of Wolsingham miscellaneous correspondance between Thomas Moses at Wolsingham, the Rev. John Coxon at Sunderland, Henry Etherington at Kingston upon Hull, John Philipson at Broadwood, Thomas Moses, George Moses and Isaac Moses at Christiansound, Norway etc; bill of complaint and answers in John Coxon, clerk, and others v Thomas Moses of Newcastle upon Tyne and others, in Chancery, 1773 - 1783
(1 volume, vellum bound)
Ref No. D/X 649/197
Hawthorn estate rentals 1774-87 examined at the request of Sir Henry Etherington, Bart. with regard to money invested under the marriage settlement of John Moses, 24 June 1787
(1 volume, card bound)
Ref No. D/X 649/198-199
Copy of the case concerning the will of John Moses with the opinions of R. Osborne and Thomas Plumer of Lincoln's Inn thereupon, 17 November 1800 - 1 January 1801
(2 papers)
Ref No. D/X 649/200
'An account of the receipts of rents and for other effects late belonging to John Moses, Esquire, and payments therefrom,' n.d. [1770's - 1780's]
(1 booklet)
Comments on the documents about his will seem to understate his strong mind/character, also found in letters to his nephews.
Tom Kaasen
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The Moses family seem to have been strongly rooted in Weardale, County Durham - large numbers living in both Stanhope and Wolsingham, as shown by the legal documents you have found. There are records of Moses' baptisms etc. going back to the early 17th century. Isaac is a common name, as is Frances. An Isaac Moses was baptised in Wolsingham in 1738 (son of Thomas Moses), the same year as your Isaac.
This would suggest that they were farmers and lead miners originally, like so many families (including mine) in the North Pennines.
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Thank you again, Geordie Mag!
"My" Isaac, b. 1738, is from Fenton. I may have mentioned it earlier, that I saw the template for the engraving on his tombstone, at the National Archive in Trondheim, Norway. It read " Isaac Moses of Fenton..." His date of birth was 29. June 1738. He established himself in Kristiansund appr. 1768. He may of course have settled in Fenton before the emigration to Norway, but I think someone found a record of his baptizing in Hayton by Brampton.
Tom Kaasen
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Yes - I realise that your Isaac was from Cumberland, but the fact that two boys with the same surname were being given the same slightly unusual Christian name in the same year suggests that there was a link between the two families - probably fairly recent. Perhaps their fathers were brothers? Your Isaac's branch obviously retained lands in County Durham, which suggests it was their place of origin.
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Maybe I misunderstood.
IF the Berwick-upon-Tweed thesis has something to it, I think that these brothers
Matthew Moses, b. appr. 1694
Samuel Moses, b. appr. 1703
John Moses, b. 1713 ("old" John)
Thomas Moses, b. 1724
may have been born there; at least Matthew, Samuel and John (it is John who is said to be born in Berwick-upon-Tweed).
Thomas, b. 1752 was from Newcastle (Even though I guess
It seems Samuel, b. appr. 1703, moved to Cumberland/Fenton and established a living there.
Tom Kaasen
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I had failed to find them in Berwick - so yes, they could well be his immediate family.
I should explain why I am getting interested in where the Moses family come from. I am rather interested in the way in which families moved around before the late 18th century. The usual opinion is that before that time families stayed put within a very small area (once they had got over the invading/looting/pillaging stage of the 5th to 9th centuries, that is!). However, I think people were far more mobile, at least in northern England, possibly because of the importance of mining, fishing, trade by sea. The Moses family seem to be a very good example of a very mobile family - Weardale, Berwick, Newcastle, Cumberland and then, of course, Norway. So, did they start in Durham and move to Cumberland etc, or did they start in Cumberland , move into Durham because of lead-mining opportunities?
Sorry - these are my interests, not yours, though their restlessness within England probably explains why one branch felt able to face the challenge of moving to Norway,
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I find this intersting too. As explained earlier, my main goal is to find descendants of "young" John Moses, but it gets interesting to see a wider picture.
The reason I think there has to be a Scottish connection, is that when "old" John Moses settled in Kristiansund, there were already several Scotsmen running prosperous businesses. Significant names are: John Ramsay, the first to settle in Kristiansund, William Gordon of Cullen, George Leslie of Banff, John Ord and Walter Miln. "Old" John Moses went into business with some of them.
Ramsay, Gordon and Leslie are held to be the real founders of the clipfish-industry of Norway (Bacalao -salted and sundried codfish)
Tom Kaasen
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Well, in a world of very bad roads, the important links were by sea and I guess the families of these Scots and the Moses family may well have got to know and trust each other already through trade down the east coast of Britain. You would need to trust people, if you were taking the risk of setting up in business in another country. But I am probably thinking of this in the wrong way. The trade between England, Scotland and Norway etc had gone on for centuries, so merchants and traders in these countries probably knew each other very well and wouldn't think of it as a huge risk.
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Maybe muddying the waters, but the will of Thomas Moses of Stanhope - 1730 is viewable as part of Durham University's archive at:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6X7S-JQ9?i=1&wc=9PQL-TZY%3A1078442178%3Fcc%3D2358715&cc=2358715
he mentions a brother Samuel Moses and family "of Fentons in the parish of Hayton, Cumberland"
The index Durham University family records archive of Bishops Transcripts; marriage licences and pre-1858 wills/admin/probate is searchable on line at:
http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/
leading to online free access to images of the relevant record
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The will of Thomas Moses of Stanhope answers a lot of questions for me. It mentions his brother Joshua of Wolsingham who had two sons Thomas and John. He also mentions in the will his other brother Samuel. Joshuas, Thomas had a son called George I believe he is he George in Johns will along with cousins Thomas and Isaac being Samuels sons. This would explain why so much land around Wolsingham belonged to John and Thomas George had a bastardly son to Margaret Fenwick in 1798. He recognised him on his death bed and bequeathed him a large amount of money. My husband is directly descended from George who was his great, great, great grandfather.
Thanks Christine
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Hi Tom
I am John Moses from Madison, WI USA. I am a descendent of John Moses (1781). My Father was John Ramsey Moses (1919-2007), grandfather Governor John Moses (1885-1945), great grandfather Henrik Bauer Moses (1848-1922), great great grandfather John Moses (1813-1881), great great great grandfather John Moses (1781-1849), great great great great grandfather Isaac Samuelson Moses (1738-1807), and great great great great great grandfather Samuel Moses. I am recently retired and have just starting my ancestry search. I came upon this thread about Isaac and was very interested. I don't want to impose but if you have any suggestions on where to find further Moses information I would love to hear about it. Thanks for all the info posted in this thread.
John Moses