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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Wednesday 04 April 12 23:42 BST (UK)
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Hi, this topic started in Kent under the heading Martha Leigh (Benge) North Cray but the part of the family we are interested in has moved to Brecon. I've tried to add a link to the Kent post but it didn't work. The family has become another puzzle, and we’d welcome advice/suggestions. Apologies for the long post; hope it makes sense.
What we know:
Thomas Henry Leigh married Margaret Alice Eliza Adams in Cilfynydd in November 1915 (we have the certificate). Thomas Henry’s age is given as 27 though we believed him to be born in 1880/81 (birth index and 1901 and 1911 censuses when he’s living in Pontypridd with his mother and step-father). Thomas Henry’s father is listed as Walter Robert Leigh (groom). It doesn’t say ‘deceased’ though we believe he died in 1891, wife Mary Ann (was Thomas) re-married in 1894.
The only Walter Robert Leigh likely to be THL’s father that we can find was born in Southwark, Surrey in Jan 1845, confusing family – see Kent link above for more info. We’ve found census info in 1851 (home in Kent) and 1861 (transcribed as Wagser, in lodging along with his 2 older sisters). But we’ve been unable to find any mention of him in 1871, 1881 or 1891 - though he died in 1891. And we have no idea how, why or when he moved to Wales.
But, he was married in Brecon in 1876, and had children that we know of in Brecon in 1880, 1883 and 1889 so where are they in the censuses? We did wonder if Walter was in the army but nothing to confirm or deny that yet.
Thomas Henry’s birth certificate arrived this morning, and initially all it did was confirm what we knew …. Thomas Henry Leigh, born 31/12/1880, father Walter Robert Leigh (groom, domestic servant), mother Mary Ann (was Thomas). Address given as Mount Street, Brecon. So we searched for the address in the 1881 census and to our astonishment found no Leighs but at:
8 Mount Street, Brecon (Brecknockshire RG11 piece 5459 folio 71 page 10)
Walter R Packman Head 32 Coachman dom Kent Alton
Mary Ann ” Wife 24 Brecon Llandew
Walter R “ son 4 Brecon
John R “ son 2 Cardigan Blaenforth
Thomas H “ son 4 mths Brecon
This looks so like our family but with the wrong surname. Could it have been a mistake in copying up the returns?
Compared with our family…
Walter Robert Leigh is 36 and born in Surrey but lived in Kent as a child, and was listed as a groom on son’s birth certificate 4 months earlier
Mary Ann Leigh was Thomas, is about 25 and from Brecon
WRP – we didn’t know about this child but have found a birth record for Walter Roberts Leigh in Brecknock for Q2 1877
JRP - nor this one, birth record found in Q1 1879 in Cardigan as John R Packman
THP - Thomas Henry Leigh born Dec 1880
So then we looked in 1891 and found them at 27 Struet (RG12 piece 4570 folio 97 page 9):
Walter Packman Head mar 40 groom Kent Footscray
Mary A “ wife mar 34 Brecon
Walter “ son 14 Brecon
John “ son 12 Cardigan
Harry “ son 10 Brecon
Elizabeth “ dau 8 Brecon
Charles “ son 6 Brecon
Albert “ son 2 Brecon
Walter’s age is again slightly out, but Walter Leigh lived in Footcray in Kent as a child (we believe our Walter Robert Leigh died in April 1891, just after the census).
Mary A, Walter and John are as in 1881
Harry could well be Thomas Henry
We have a Mary Elizabeth Leigh born in 1883 and Albert James Leigh born in 1889, both in Brecon and both matching the Packmans age and birth place above. Not heard of Charles before but have found a birth index for a William Charles Leigh, born Brecknock in Q4 1886. There may have been another child too Frederick Joseph Leigh, born Q1 1882, died Q2 1883.
Elizabeth & Albert appear in 1901 census (living with mum, step-dad and Thomas Henry). Elizabeth married John Stuckey and was a witness at Thomas Henry Leigh’s wedding.
The final bizarre thing about this is that one of Walter Robert Leigh’s older sisters married a man called Henry Packman.
This would explain why we can’t find the Leighs in 1881 and 1891 (still not found Walter in 1871 so maybe he was in the army). It all looks too close to be a coincidence but can anyone offer any suggestions? Why name all but 1 of the children Leigh on their birth records but call themselves Packman on the censuses. Any where does John, the child from Cardigan fit in, named as a Packman? Apart from John I haven’t been able to find any records of any of the Packmans. Nor can I find a wedding record from Mary Ann to her 2nd husband Llewelyn James Jones either as Thomas, Leigh or Packman. They had one child, Arthur Godfrey Leigh Jones, suggesting she wanted to keep the Leigh name somewhere.
Any advice or suggestions as to how to unravel the mystery would be most welcome.
Thanks for reading :)
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is this the other post you refer to?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,587869.msg4392435.html#msg4392435
It's unlikely to be a mistake for 2 census entries to show the family as Packman, so it looks like the family were known as that. I can see nothing to suggest that Walter Robert was in the army, census shows him as coachman domestic or groom, so he may be in service somewhere in 1871 & he moved with his employment.
His son Walter joined the militia in 1895.
I wonder if Walter had been in trouble at some stage and was hiding under the name of Packman? You can call yourself what you like as long as there is no intent to defraud. I have something similar in the 1901 census when I couldn't find a relative. When the 1911 became available, I found the names of his children, searched again & found the family group but head of household was using his step-father's name. I've no idea what was going on, they were in Yorkshire when I was expecting Cardiff, but it's definitely the correct family as the wife's brother is lodging with them. I think, as in your case, head of household was keeping a low profile, using a name known in the family, but the children were registered with their correct, quite common, surname.
??? ::)
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Cheers Osprey, yes that's the post thanks.
When we found the 1881 census entry we thought that might have been a mistake, but I agree that it sounds unlikely (if not impossible) for 2 to be wrong. Like your family, it does sound strange and I guess we'll never know the answer.
I haven't been able to find out much else about the children we didn't know about - no census entries for any of them (and have looked for Packmans too). Have a possible death entry for Walter junior in 1935 in Pontypridd and a possible death for the John Richard Packman (born in Cardigan and registered as Packman) but as John Richard Leigh in 1952 in Ystradgynlais. Nothing to confirm these yet, just ideas.
Can you give me any more info on Walter junior? I've not found any mention of him in the military data on Ancestry or Findmypast.
Walter senior's marriage certificate arrived yesterday (apologies I meant to update the post) and according to that he was a 'private 24th foot', living in Barracks Road? (copy not brilliant) at the time of his register office wedding in October 1876. But the RRW museum at Brecon have no record of a Walter Robert Leigh. So it's becoming very mysterious, and after the complicated childhood in Kent we thought his life has settled down!.
It does sound as if he was hiding from something, but if he was in trouble with the army, he stayed pretty close by!
Thanks again for your reply, much appreciated.
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the info on Walter jnr is on Findmypast - it's not very informative. Just search for Walter Leigh - only 3 and he's the one born Brecon, unsurprisingly. His marriage in 1905 is also on that site under the parish marriages, no family witnesses.
If Walter was in the 2nd battalion of the 24th foot, they were not in the UK at the time of the 1871 census. But came back in 1872.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wales_Borderers
I'm beginning to wonder if the widowed Mrs Leigh did marry Mr Jones as I haven't found any sign yet, apart from being enumerated as 'wife'.
::)
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Thanks Osprey, I may have been looking for Walter R. I hadn't found his marriage either, so thanks for that. Will look for more details now with the marriage
The dates for the 2nd 24th sound good as they would explain why he's not on the 1871 census, and if they were in Brecon for a few years from 1872 he would have met and married Mary Ann. RRW museum say he's not on the 24th register in 1877/78/79 for the Zulu war, so presumably he left after his marriage in Oct 1876 and before they went to SA in 1877. If he really was in the army!
I've been looking for some weeks for Mary Ann's 2nd marriage but can't find anything as Thomas, Leigh or Packman! Struggling everywhere on her too, a number of Mary Ann Thomases born in the area at the time, her dad was John, coachman deceased at the time of her wedding so little to go on to pin her down.
Cheers again.
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As we're quite new to this family history pastime, so far we've only looked at bmd and census info. And some parish records, though not having much luck there.
Just wondered, would it be worth a trip to Brecon library to see if there are any 'interesting' newspaper reports for the time. If he was in the army in Oct 1876 when he got married but didn't accompany them to SA in 1877 at least it's a fairly short time period to look through.
Can anyone suggest anything else we can do? Not really looking for a trip to the National Archives - not yet anyway ::)
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I'd contact the library first to see if they can check anything to save the trip
http://www.powys.gov.uk/index.php?id=727&L=0
The archives in Llandrindod Wells certainly has a selection of newspapers
http://www.powys.gov.uk/index.php?id=876&L=0
What would you hope to find in the National Archives?
:-\
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Thanks Osprey, will contact them. Llandrindod's even more of a trek!
We'd been in touch with the Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh in Brecon who told us that they have no record of Walter Robert Leigh or Packman despite what it says on his marriage certificate; they also told us that service records and discharge papers were held at the National Archives so thought we'd need to go there to look (we've not found anything on him on ancestry or findmypast military records though).
Another twist yesterday - we had his death certificate (or what we thought was his). But it's for a Walter Leigh, age 45, died 14 June 1891, ostler in a coalmine, died of pneumonia, at 2 Aberfan Road, Aberfan, death registered by occupier present at death Sarah Ann Williams of same address (he wasn't there on the 1891 census). Trying to find out where he might be buried in case that helps.
Could this be the same man who only 8 weeks earlier at time of 1891 census was living as Walter Packman in Brecon with his wife and 6 children, age 40 and a groom? But we can't find any other possible death for a Walter Leigh (we've looked up to 1945 in case he hadn't died when his wife 're-married' in 1894).
Fascinating story, but getting stuck now.
Thanks for your interest.
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the household at 2 Aberfan Road has a boarder in 1891, so Walter could have been boarding there 6 weeks later. The census is a snapshot of one night, so nothing to say that he didn't board elsewhere during the week. Not too much of a change for a groom to find work looking after the horses in a mine.
The only Packman death I can see in the area is too early
Thomas Packman dec qtr 1862 Crickhowell vol 11b pg 84
If you can't find records for Walter on Findmypast, I don't think there will be records at the National Archives. Unless he enlisted under another name?
:-\
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Thanks; it does appear to fit quite well. Would all deaths be registered and therefore it has to be the one we want?
I think we were concerned that we were jumping to wrong conclusions. And that we might have had the wrong Walter Robert Leigh after all, as without any evidence that he was in the army we couldn’t connect the Walter born in Southwark, who spent his childhood in Kent with the Walter, father of Thomas Henry Leigh, born in Brecon, that we know to be my husband’s great grandfather.
However, Walter’s birth certificate arrived today and it probably confirms that they are one and the same person, even though parts of the puzzle don’t fit…
The ‘young’ Walter was born to Richard, engineer, and Sarah Leigh in St George’s Southwark in Jan 1845. His parents had both died by the time Walter was six and he was brought up in North Cray and Footscray in Kent. His older sister Elizabeth married Henry Packman, her father listed as Richard, wheelwright, deceased.
The ‘old’ Walter’s wedding certificate lists his father as Richard Leigh, deceased, engine fitter. In 1881 and 1891 Walter appears to be living as Walter Packman, born in Kent (’81) and Footscray (’91).
Surely it’s too much of a coincidence for Richard / engineer/ Packman / Footscray to appear in both the ‘young’ and ‘old’ Walter for them not to be the same person?
This will presumably be as far back as we can get from home and the internet so will probably leave Walter and co for now and move on to explore another branch of our tree(s).
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Yes, it does look to be too much of a coincidence. In theory, all deaths are registered, but there's a lot recorded as 'Unknown'.
Do you have the birth cert for John as he is the only one born out of area to see if they are any clues to the name change?
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Do you have the birth cert for John as he is the only one born out of area to see if they are any clues to the name change?
No, only bought a handful so far, those we needed to extend the direct branches. Sounds a good idea though, though I have a feeling it will only add to the mystery...
Thanks for interest, Deirdre
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Leigh/Packman,
Could be gypsies, very unlikely, it fits the mould. Will check my Brecon records.
Garfydd
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Hadn't thought of that, but thanks.
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I have slept on it. Lee(Leigh) is,sometimes, a gypsy name. Checked the Brecon gipsy families-Rockhorn,Lee,Warner,Price. None of yours. His military record does not sound like traveller. Could he have changed his name-Leigh to Parkman or vica versa. Census error, see Richard Lawton,"The Census & Social Structure",Cass.1948.
Garfydd
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OK thanks for checking.
Trouble is, we can't find any confirmation of military career, other than occupation listed on wedding certificate. And he's only Packman on 1881 and 1891 census, Leigh everywhere else, same for wife and kids, other than the one born in Cardigan ???
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Do you have the birth cert for John as he is the only one born out of area to see if they are any clues to the name change?
We've decided to return to the Leigh / Packman saga and have bought Walter junior and John's birth certificates to try and trace their movements (already had Thomas') ..
~ 22 Mar 1877: Walter Robert Leigh born at Mount Street, Brecknock to Walter Robert Leigh, private 24th foot, and Mary Ann Leigh, formerly Thomas. Informant: W R Leigh, father, Barracks, Brecknock;
~ 28 Dec 1878: John Richard Packman born at Rhosfach, Blaenporth, Llandygwydd to Walter Robert Packman, coachman, and Mary Ann Packman, formerly Thomas. Informant Mary Ann Packman, mother;
~ 31 Dec 1880: Thomas Henry Leigh born at Mount Street, Brecknock to Walter Robert Leigh, groom (domestic) and Mary Ann Leigh, formerly Thomas. Informant: Mary Ann Leigh, mother, Mount Street.
So another twist of sorts in that Walter (child 1) and Thomas (child 3) were both born in Mount Street, Brecknock and registered as Leighs, while John (child 2) was born in Llandygwydd and registered as Packman.
Taking some leave in July or August so planning a trip to the library in Brecon or the records office in Llandrindod to see if they have anything to help. Someone looking for Walter Robert about 10 years said they had a photograph of him in army uniform from a newspaper ??? Tried contacting her a while ago but no reply :(
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There is a baptismal record for John Richard Leigh to Walter Robert(groom)and Mary Ann in Brecon in 1882.recorded as born 1879.
Further,there is a Brecon record for Walter Robert Leigh(snr),baptised 1884,but recorded as born 1845 to Richard(engineer) and Anne.Same address as others 27 Street.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger,
Found the baptism records for all but the youngest child, born after Walter's death. Walter's mum died only 3 months after his birth leaving dad with 4 children under 5 so not surprising he wasn't baptised as a baby/child. I guess Walter discovered that he hadn't been baptised (though he and Mary Ann had been married in the register office with eldest son Walter junior already on the way) so decided to be baptised as an adult.
It just seems bizarre to register all but 1 child as Leigh, have them all baptised as Leigh (inc the one born in Llandygwydd as Packman) giving the address as The Struet yet appear as Packman in 2 censuses (1881 and 1891). Also seems strange that if Walter was hiding, maybe from the army, that they were still living only a stone's throw away from the barracks.
Not sure what we hope to find in the library or archives but seems worth a try (and a pleasant day out).
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Dear Deirdre,
The following information is as seen (but I have put some notes in square brackets)
The following were baptised in St Mary's Ward, Brecon.
The Parents were shown as Walter Robert and Mary Ann(e) LEIGH - home address 27 The Struet, Brecon. Walter Robert's occupation was shown as being Groom.
Name date of birth date of Baptism
Walter Robert LEIGH 22 MAR 1877 12 JUN 1882
John Richard LEIGH 12 DEC 1879 28 JUN 1882
Thomas Henry LEIGH 31 DEC 1881 28 JUN 1882 [actually born 31 DEC 1880 NOT 1881]
Frederick Joseph LEIGH 28 FEB 1882 12 JUN 1882 [died age 1 in 1883]
Mary Elizabeth LEIGH 17 JUL 1883 31 OCT 1883
Albert James LEIGH 02 APR 1889 28 OCT 1891 [Walter Robert father shown as deceased]
Also at the same church there was baptism for
Walter Robert LEIGH born in 1845 Baptised as an adult on 28 JAN 1884
address 27 The Struet, Brecon (parents named as Richard (an Engineer) and Anne LEIGH)
Witnesses of the baptism : Emma Packer and E. Kinsey.
Hope the above helps a little.
Regards, Alltcafan :)
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Hi Alltcafan, thanks for taking an interest and for looking these up.
Apologies but we already have this info, and another child, William Charles Lee, baptised 24 Nov 1886, with parents recorded as Walter Romand and Mary Ann Lee. Walter a coachman. Resident at 27 Struet. Birth was registered as Leigh.
It's why they were all listed as Packman in the censuses that's got our interest. ::)
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I've just found the baptism for the youngest child, Frederick Joseph Lee, parents Walter Robert and Mary Ann of 27 Struet, Walter a groom.
Frederick Joseph was born on 30 Jan 1892, and baptised privately at St John the Evangelist on 4 Feb. Registered as Frederick Joseph Leigh, he died in the same quarter (not buried at the church though).
Looks like another addition to the puzzle as (a) Walter had died in Aberfan of pneumonia almost 8 months previously (b) all the other baptisms were at St Mary's, Brecon even though they were still living at The Struet, (c) Walter was listed as the father and a groom, even though he couldn't have been there and (d) the private baptism - wouldn't it have cost more, maybe they were hiding - though maybe FJ was ill and had to be baptised in a hurry.
Given that the children were all baptised, as was Walter as an adult, it seems strange to me that the 2 children who died while they were living at the Struet, weren't buried in the church too. And still not found Walter's burial. ???
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a private baptism doesn't mean it is paid for, it means one not in the church. It would suggest he wasn't expected to survive and so baptised at home. When a child who has been privately baptised is later brought to the church, you should find a note of a public baptism.
Baptism is free, although at times there have been charges for the entry in the parish register.
I don't think the mention of a father's name & occupation on the baptism entry means the father was there. I've come across baptisms where from the father's address he couldn't have been present - child baptised in Cornwall, father's abode Montana.
;)
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Thanks Osprey, I'd assumed you paid to have a child baptised, thought that was why some families who couldn't afford baptism for the early children, often had a number of them baptised together at a later date. Hadn't realised 'private' meant at home either (I've found a few Catholic ones where it says something on the lines of 'baptised at home in case of death').
Guess we're being caught up with the puzzles of the Leigh/Packman saga and making 2+2 equal 5! We'd even been wondering if Walter really had died in June 1891 (25 miles away from Brecon, no connection on the death cert to his wife or family, no burial found, no record found for his wife's 2nd marriage in 1894, child born in 1895 called Arthur Godfrey LEIGH Jones...). Might be interesting to get the birth or death cert for the baby to see if registered by Mary Ann (or Walter?!). ???
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in the anglican church, the usual way was for children to be baptised after the morning service on a Sunday or a holy day, sometimes after the evening service. That way the child was welcomed into the congregation.
http://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/book-of-common-prayer/private-baptism-of-infants.aspx
Given the 1891 death, he could be buried in a municipal cemetery rather than a churchyard.
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Thanks for the link Osprey.
Waiting (hoping) to hear from Powys if he's buried in Brecon; he's not in any of the cemeteries in Merthyr CBC area.
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Just had a reply from Powys and Walter (Leigh) is buried there; and it gives his place of death as Aberfan so it's the same person. One bit of the puzzle solved. ;D
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one burial down, one marriage still to find and probably more puzzles to be found. It's possible that the years of marriage from the 1911 census was worked out to be before the birth of the oldest child and the actual marriage was late/much later....
;)
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The lovely lady in Powys actually found the burials of the 2 children who died in Brecon as well; all in third class (unpurchased) graves, and no plot numbers recorded, but it's good news for my tree, and a few more loose ends tied up.
Have looked for the Mary Anne/Hannah (Thomas) Leigh ~ Llewellyn James Jones wedding up til 1901 without success (listed as Jones in the 1901 census with Mary Anne's children from her first marriage listed as step-children); then last week found the Oct 1895 baptism of Arthur Godfrey Leigh Jones where the parents are named as Mary Hannah Jones and Llewelyn James Jones, which lines up with an 1894 or 1895 wedding. Will extend my search and name variations, but maybe they never married. :-\
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: Hello Deidre 724, just came across your posts on Roots chat almost by accident. I was tracing the Leighs about 2 or 3 years ago, but sort of gave up
I'm the guy with the Photos of Walter Roberts Leigh 2nd Warwick 24th Welsh reg of Foot. The title of the News article is Fighting Llanbradach Family. small village near Caerphilly South Wales.
My wife is Irene Leigh, her brother Walter Robert Leigh born 1937. Their father Walter Robert Leigh born 1907 in Pontypridd, died 1985 in Caerphilly. His father Walter Robert Leigh born 22/3/1877 in Brecon died 1925 in Pontypridd, family says he suffered from effects of Gas poisoning etc in WW1
This Walter married a Jennet Herbert born 1889 married 1905 died 1974.
His brothers and sisters are the Albert, Will Charles, John R ( Packman), Thomas Henry ( Harry)and Eliz B Mary, you have found.
This Walter also had his dad with the same name, Walter Robert born in Southwark, Kent 1845 Coachman / Groom died 1891 in Pontypridd. All these Walter Roberts must be a Welsh Thing ??
I was as far as Richard Leigh my wife's Great, Great, Grandad.
I have a copy of 1911 Census Walter Leigh, wife Jennet Lee, children Ivor, Robert, Nelly all Lees, Walter even signed the form Lee.
Going back to the Photo, it shows Private Walter Leigh, Private Walter R Leigh (father) Gunner William C Leigh of Sheffield, Private Ben Herbert,of Llanbradach brother in law, Royal Irish Fusiliers, Private Arthur G Leigh-Jones 10th Welsh Regiment (half brother), Private Fred G Burnell of Llanbradach 1st Rhondda Battalion Welsh Reg,(brother in law) and Private Harry Leigh , Pontypridd Welsh Reg.
How can I send you a copy and the other info I have ?? as I'm not used to this site
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Hi, just going to church but great to hear from you and welcome to Rootschat. I will get back to you later this evening.
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Hi again Pedro Dow, so pleased you got in touch. It will probably be easier to chat via email but you will have to post 2 more messages (you can simply say 'thanks' or 'hi') before we can exchange a private message (PM) on here to swap email addresses.
I was actually sent a copy of the photo a little while back, but it was only a photocopy of a photocopy so not brilliant (but still a thrill to see). The clever photo enthusiasts on this forum were able to enhance it slightly, but we would love a better copy if possible.
We have got one generation further back than Richard - his parents were John Leigh (millwright) and Mary Jarrett. Both are believed to have died in 1827 leaving Richard (aged 10) and 2 other young children, plus older ones.
We have also found info on the original (born 1845, Southwark) Walter Robert's full siblings (John, Elizabeth Caroline - who married Henry Packman 😀) and Mary Ann).
Looking forward to hearing from you, and thanks again for getting in touch.
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Been re-reading all my Walter Robert posts 😀. Amazing to see this one started in April 2012; i only started researching our families (Walter Robert is my husband's great great grandfather) in February 2012. It has become a daily passion, helped hugely by many people on this site.
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Hi Pedro, i see you've been online here again today but you've not posted any reply. I have sent you a personal / private message but not sure if you'll see it until you have posted 2 replies.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Deirdre
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Hi Deidre 784. Delay in replying as I seem unable to get my head around using the Rootschat site.
I Can't find all your previous posts re the Leighs.
Any how will 'E Mail' you direct.
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Hi Pedro, only on my phone at the moment but i'll find the other Walter Robert threads and attach links here asap (when on the laptop).
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Deirdre
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Thanks, hope you get the E Mail OK. I,ll need to go back to Glamorgan Archives sometime soon to research some more Pedro.
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Nothing yet! If you've sent an email you may need to check my name - lots of people miss out the first 'r' 😀
I love the archives. What do you hope to find there?
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Hi Deidre 784. I Can't find all your previous posts re the Leighs.
Hi Pedro, if you use the 'search' facility at the top of the page, simply enter Walter Robert Leigh in the search box and my user name Deirdre784 in the 'by user' box. This should bring up a handful of posts over the years, all relating to the original Walter Robert Leigh born 1845, including my search for the newspaper photo, his childhood in Kent with Martha Benge, and his missing army career.
Hope you find these interesting; he's been a fascinating person to track down!
Thanks for the email. We must keep in touch.
Deirdre