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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: tamworth on Friday 13 April 12 03:52 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to trace my Seymour ancestors. My gfather was Claude John Seymour he was born in Essex UK around 1887 arrived in Australia about 1904 and died in 1944 in NSW. He married Maude M Coyne in NSW Australia.
His father was John Claude Seymour born around 1860 probably in Sussex. His mother was Mabel Stephens, I cant find any marrage record for his father and mother.. regards
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Are you positive he was born in Essex? I can't find a birth for him nor any census records that fit.
There is a passenger list showing C J SEYMOUR arriving in NSW on board Militiades 9 June 1913 but is says he was from Carmarthenshire. I see that the marriage to Maude COYNE was the same year so wonder if this might be your man? Do you have their marriage certificate? Does it name his parents as John Claude and Mabel or have you got that information from elsewhere?
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many thanks for your reply. the information that I have has come from his death certificate. which states that Claude John Seymour was born in essex, england. has been in NSW for 40yrs, was about 25yrs old when married to Maude Mary Millicent Coyne.
Names his father as John Seymour, engineer, mother as Mabel Stephens. these dates would put him as arriving in NSW around 1904. I cant find any confirmed information re his mother or father.
Regards
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Unfortunately the information on a death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the informant so naming Claude's parents as John and Mabel may simply be incorrect. I couldn't find this couple on any census at all, either together or even with their son.
Do you know of anyone in your family that may have purchased the marriage certificate for Claude and Maude? Claude would have stated his parents on that - BUT - as there seems to be no record of him in England, maybe the information given could have been misleading.
I see that the 1930 electoral roll show Claude as a tobacconist. Do you know what his profession was in his earlier years?
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I have found this; "John Seymour 33 Haddon st Middlesborough, died 25th October 1915. Probate London 27th Nov to Mabel Seymour spinster. Effects 665-13-8(pounds shillings and pence)", in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1861-1941, about John Seymour. The fact that Mabel is described an a spinster when, if they are the right ones, Mabel would be described as a widow. Maybe they weren't married! Thanks very much for your help.
I am in the process of obtaining a marriage certificate.
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I think the probate record is a red herring - according to FreeBMD, the John SEYMOUR who died in Middlebrough in 1915 was aged 71, and there is a good match for him in Middlesbrough on the 1901 census with wife Jane and various children including a daughter named Mabel.
Rambler
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Thanks for the reply. I agree, I can forget that line of thought. I'm stumped, maybe the marriage certificate of John Claude Seymour's son Claude John Seymour might throw some light on things. I have come across a few John Seymour's and Mabel Stephens but none of them seem to match
Regards
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I've been searching too, Tamworth, and there doesn't seem to be likely a 1891 census entry, nor a birth for your Claude John Seymour in Essex. I think you need that marriage certificate to see what his father's name was on that.....and being NSW, you'll possibly get his mother's name as well.
There is a Charles John Seymour born in Essex in 1887. That was the nearest I could find.
Dee :)
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Hi
I too have spent most of yesterday on this and found nothing, could Mable have been Claude mother, very often when a child was born out of wedlock they would name there grandfather as there father on marriage certificates,
MargpMable can't be his mother she is the same age as Claude???????????
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Hi Tamworth
Can you give us a bit more information on the children of Claude and Maude, sometime they named there children after there siblings, and we may be able to pick something up on the census that way, I am not sure if you have this info but you can obtain the marriage cert for Claude and Maude from this site
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
Margp
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][/color]Hi MargP.
Thanks for your reply.The children of Claude John Seymour and Maude are: Gladys T,
John Claude (my father), Delma B and Margorie J.
Re John Claude Seymour (Claude Johns father). I found a John Seymour in the 1861 census which states that his estimated birth date was 1860, his father was Joseph, his mother was Susan, both 24 yrs old.This John was born in Harlow Essex. Dated puts him in the right age bracket.
It goes like this; There was John Claude his father was Claude John and his father was John Claude. It looks like the first John Claude was named after his Grandfather.
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Many thanks for all the replies that I received. SandraAust's suggested that I try to get a copy of Claude Johns marriage certificate, I now have a copy and SandraAust you were right, the information on each certificate is different.
On his death certificate his mother is Mabel Stephens, on his marriage certificate his mother is Ethel May Stephens also his death certificate has him born in Essex, England where as his marriage certificate has him born in Ipswich, England.
I have been on several sights but cant find any information on eather. Any suggestions would be much appreciated
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It's the marriage cert you need to go by as it is direct information from the groom. I can't find a marriage for his mother and father. Do keep in mind that they may not have been married.
Jamjar
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What is his age on the marriage certificate, please?
Jamjar
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He should be on the 1891 census.
Jamjar
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On the 1881 census, you have have Ethel, Mabel and Essex and Ipswich
Ethel STEVENS Head widow 37 Colchester, Essex, England Tailoress
Mabel STEVENS Daur 9 Colchester, Essex, England Scholar
William H. STEVENS Son 7 Ipswich, Suffolk, England Scholar
Florence STEVENS Daur 4 Wix, Essex, England Scholar
26 Victoria Terrace, Dovercourt, Essex, England
Jamjar
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Looks like this is your '61 in '81
John SEYMOUR Head 69 Harlow, Essex, England Farm Labourer
Sarah SEYMOUR Wife 69 Harlow, Essex, England Farm Labourer Wife
John SEYMOUR Grandson Unmaried 20 Harlow, Essex, England Hot Water Fitter
Joseph SEYMOUR Grandson 18 Harlow, Essex, England Formerly Painter
Frederick SEYMOUR Grandson 13 Harlow, Essex, England Scholar
Up Garden Terrace, Harlow, Essex, England
Jamjar
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Harlow is in the district of Epping, and there's a John Charles SEYMOUR born there in 1887.
4a/300 June 1887.
I'm beginning to wonder?
Dee :)
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Many thanks Jamjar and all for your replies. Claude John Seymour was 24 at time of marriage, his father John Claude usual occupation 'engineer'. Ethel May's surname is spelt "Stephens" on the marriage certificate.
It crossed my mind that they may not have been married but wouldn't their names would be on his birth certificate?
He was married in 1913 which puts his DOB at 1889. Claude John arrived in Australia about 1904.
Hi deeiluka just got your message. How do I access this information.
Tamworth
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Tamworth, I've been searching FreeBMD
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
It is only an index, but there is no Claud(e) John Seymour or John Claud(e) Seymour born between 1880 and 1890 in any district. John Charles Seymour Jun Qtr 1887 is the only one I found.
If nothing else can be found for you, you may have to gamble on getting that birth certificate. , Names, ages and places of birth and spellings can vary so much from document to document. :-\
Dee
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What I meant was, you may not find a marriage certificate.
Jamjar
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I would put a request on the 'census' board and find him on the 1891.
Jamjar
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Tamworth, what occupation was Claude on his marriage certificate?
Dee :)
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His occupation is described as 'Rabbit buyer'. Thanks Jamjar I have put a request in.
Tamworth
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Tamworth, I've been searching FreeBMD
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
It is only an index, but there is no Claud(e) John Seymour or John Claud(e) Seymour born between 1880 and 1890 in any district. John Charles Seymour Jun Qtr 1887 is the only one I found.
If nothing else can be found for you, you may have to gamble on getting that birth certificate. , Names, ages and places of birth and spellings can vary so much from document to document. :-\
Dee
I think that this may be the Baptist record for the above
John Charles Seymour 29 May 1887 St Mary Magdalene
Father William Seymour,occ Hawker
Mother Emily STEVENS
Abode Harlow Common
FreeReg
Margp
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Well found, Marg!
So that eliminates that idea.
Claude is certainly well hidden. :-\
Dee :)
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Hi
I found this marriage, possible parents for John Charles Seymour
William Arthur Seymour to Emily STEVENS
April Qtr 1867
Reg Epping Essex
Vol 4a
Page 75
I am not sure if there is a connection, but this is the only Seymour /Steven marriage I have found, and as these are the parents of John Charles Seymour, the closest candidate we have for Claude John Seymour, I thought I would post this. also it may be a thought that when, Claude at the age of 14 went to Australia, he may have been a crew member aboard a ship, it seems a bit young to travel alone at that age.
Margp
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There's only one birth for a Claud(e) in the district of Epping between 1885 and 1890 and that is for a Claude Arthur Powell in 1885. :-\
Dee :)
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Hi Dee
I have search every which way on this, and can find no records for him so he must have been known under another name, I think that the information on the certificates is tenuous,both records contradict each other, he may have been born out of wedlock and made some of it up to save face.
Margp
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There's certainly not much to be found, Marg. :-\
Dee :)
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Seymour brick walls are a pet hobby of mine - masochist that i am
There is a Claude Robert W Seymour B. 1890 sept qtr, reg district Chichester, county Sussex, vol 2b, pg 375.
Something to put in your "possible list" edit to add - no good this child died same year
Who was informant on death cert?
What age was Claude at death in 1944 on death cert?
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Thanks for your reply. Claude was 57 when he died. Parents on death certificate are John Seymour (engineer) and Mabel Stephens , has him born in Essex, the informant was his wife Maude Seymour. This information differs on his marriage certificate where his mothers name is Ethel May Stephens and has his birthplace as Ipswich, England,. His fathers occupation is the same. He was 24 when he married Maude Coyne.
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So (just to be clear cos I am a little slow)
Marriage in OZ in 1813 to Maude Coyne. Cert says he is 24 years old (ie b. abt 1889). Parents of groom: John Seymour (engineer) & Ethel May Stephens. Groom born in Ipswich.
(Query - how old was Maude at time of marriage? Just wondering if Maude's age could be a clue to add weight to Claude "minimising" his age for some reason)
Death Cert 1944. Age 27 (ie b. abt 1887). Parents: John Seymour (engineer) and Mabel Stephens. Informant is is his wife who says he was born in Essex. Am assuming death cert also says he has been in OZ for 40 years? (hence your previous posts about him arriving in abt 1904)
I have trawled the 1891 & 1901 census in UK looking for a Claude Seymour or a Claude Stephens/Stevens of appropriate age living with either a father john and/or mother with name approximating Mabel/Ethel/May and/or grandparents with surname Seymour or Stephens ...... and can find nothing (which confirms other poster's findings on other threads)
I also cannot find a British Seymour arriving in OZ between 1902-1906 of approximately the right age (ie in 1904 Claude would be somewhere between 15-17 based on marriage & death info). Have also looked at seamen on boats. There is a French seaman, age 15, named Claude Samer - all the crew are french ..... so looking unlikely.
Claude John kept his name well out of the newspapers on Trove
Next possibility .... Claude lied substantially about his age. There is a Claude Seymour floating about OZ waters (and in UK earlier, becoming a cadet around 1892) in early 1900s - navy man. But I am not sure how a navy lieutenant suddenly becomes a rabbit buyer by 1813. I broadened the search for all Seymours arriving in OZ about 1904 but nothing "hits" me in the face.
Next possibility .... Claude made up his name. Perhaps he was the illegitimate son of John Seymour (engineer - possibly military? navy engineer?), went under his mother's name of Stephens (no Claude's in UK censuses but maybe he could have been a John) until he arrived in OZ and magically became Seymour and claude.
Are there any clues on birth certs of Claude's children? ie, odd occupation change. How does his name come up on these certs? claude J? Claude? claude John?
Very frustrating.
cocksie
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Maude aged 20 on her marriage certificate, she was 52 when she died. Yes Claude's death certificate does state that he was in NSW for 40 years. He was 57 when he died. If he sailed under another name and changed it when he arrived in NSW, wouldn't there be some record of it somewhere?. I recall , when I was young, that there was some talk of him having a problem with his past. The story was that he had been married before in England and did indeed change his name on arrival in NSW. I have since asked an older relative (since deceased), who was around at the time and knew a lot of family history, if this was true she said no and that Claude arrived unmarried as Seymour. I know that there was a lot of friction with Claude and his wife as she stated that she did not want to be buried any near him. She knew that she was dying as she had cancer. He was buried in Dubbo in 1944 she was buried in Bathurst in 1945.I don't remember either of them. There is a mystery there somewhere, guess I'll never know.
Regards 'tamworth'
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I have new information re Claude John Seymour. Before he died he stated that his real name was Chapman (did not give first name), however, doctors said that he was in a confused state of mind so this may or may not be true. It does lend weight to the family rumours that he did change his name. The fact that this Claude John Seymour cannot be traced on any data base also tends to suggest that he did change his name. If it is true that he changed his name he must have invented all the information on his marriage certificate. Unless someone out there has any suggestions where to go from here I guess my search ends here. 'tamworth'