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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Aberdeenshire => Scotland => Aberdeenshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: tamworth on Sunday 22 April 12 10:16 BST (UK)
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I'm having trouble trying to authenticate the information Re, Ann Young, that I have from some family trees. The Ann Young in my ancestry was a convict as was her sister Euphemia Young, They both arrived in NSW in 1805 on board the William Pitt. Ann married James Parker.
All the family trees that I have seen have the parents of Ann as James Young and Elizabeth Black, as both these people come from very affluent families its hard to imagine 2 convict children in the same family, both deported to NSW also, I cant find Ann listed among their children. This would mean that all these family trees, as well as mine,are incorrect . I'm hoping that someone can help.
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My 1st thought is do you have both sisters Death Certificates and if so who are the parents listed for them?
Mick
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I can't find Euphemia's death record. Ann's death details only state that she was 75 when she died at Parramatta NSW. Regards
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Hi, I "googled" and nothing came up for Ann but there were a couple of things for Euphemie (an Australian convict site and "rootsweb").
Euphemie was convicted on 24-2-1804 of stealing calico in Banff (but tried in Aberdeen) along with her sister Anne, Anne's husband Peter Cavanagh, Jant Monroe and Margaret Gray. The Aberdeen Journal says they were vagrants and known thieves. Euphemie married Patrick Hanrahan eventually (Irish convict) and depending on what you read had three or five sons. She left Patrick and ended up with Frederick Morgan. She was born about 1784 and died in 1850. Hope this helps.
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There is a 1815 NSW marriage
V18161909 3A/1816 HANNAGAN PATRICK YOUNG EUPHEMIA CD (no idea what location CD is)
It's possible either or both sister's NSW marriage certificate will have parents names.
This MAY be Euphemia's death in NSW taking into account heymin's information
V1850234 102/1850 MORGAN EUPHEMIA AGE 60
Mick
ps maybe a idea to ask a Moderator to transfer this post to the Australian board
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Thanks to heymin for the lead. I found an article in the Aberdeen Journal, February 22nd 1804 regarding the vagrants mentioned. There is quite a lot of information but I'm not sure how to save it to my computer. Here's a few snippets...
Ann Young, native of Enzie, Banffshire..good looking woman,fair complexion, brown hair,thin..pregnant very big with child..
Euphemie Young says her mother Rebecca Young resides in Montrose....about 18, very forward in her manner..
The article does not state their relationship to each other nor to Peter Cavanagh.
flst
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Thanks flst for your information. I have found the site that you refer to it begs the question 'what happened to the child on Ann?' There is no record of Ann arriving in Australia with a child. Is there a site where I can find the record of her trial? Being a vagrant I guess there isn't much chance of locating her parents..
It does seem that this Ann is the right one. heymin states that Ann's husband was Peter Cavanagh, if this is right wouldn't this show up in her records somewhere?. She married James Parker in NSW in the year 1810 (also a convict)
Many thanks all for your help. Tamworth
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Hi,
I know that Ann is not the daughter of James and Elizabeth Young. Their daughter married Robert Morice who coincidently was a court clerk and signed some of our Ann's legal papers. I have a copy from the Scotish Records Office that I could scan for you. Ann and Robert Morice were having children after our Ann Arrived in Australia.
It is frustrating not have the death certificates of either Ann or James Parker. I have no record of them after the 1828 census
Cai
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Euphemia and Ann (convicts ) from Banff were sisters. I am more interesred in Euphemia, but they both were transported for 5 years aboard the "William Pitt" arr Sydney 11 April 1806. Ann did marry Parker, a convict. Would assume Ann kept quiet about her marriage and it was 29 April 1810 ie after she served her sentence.ch Catherine, Ann,Jane, Euphemia,Mary, James, Margaret.
1806 employed by Thomas Whittle, Parramatta
1822 census - wife of James Parker Windsor= possibly bought 15 acres Windsor.
1828 Ann a Hutkeeper for Mr Palmer, James, her husband a shepherd for Mr Palmer
Not sure of death, but there is a death for an Ann Parker at Parramatta in 1862.
None of the BDM certs for Euphemia have any parents listed.
Euphemia mar Patrick Hanrahan 1816 and had 5 ch William Henry (James), Patrick, Denis, John, James. About 1816, she took off to Sydney and lived with a James Morgan with whom she had 2 or 3 children.Euphemia died 1 Jan 1850
Would love to get a copy of the Aberdeen article if that is possible
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Hi,
If you send me your email I will scan the documents and send them through. The Ann Young who died in Parramatta in 1862 is not our Ann. I looked at the church record and that Ann Young was a convict who arrived on the Glatton. I suspect Ann and James died in the Bathurst area and their deaths weren't registered. They may be buried on a farming property.
Cai
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1806 employed by Thomas Whittle, Parramatta
1822 census - wife of James Palmer Windsor= possibly bought 15 acres Windsor.
1828 Hutkeeper for Mr Palmer, James a shepherd
Not sure of death, but there is a death for an Ann Parker at Parramatta in 1862.
Not sure where James Palmer comes in are you talking about the same Ann & Eupheima Young?
Attached is copy Transcribed from the Aberdeen Journal 1804
Regards 'tamworth'
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Apologies for my big mistake yesterday which I have since fixed. Should have had Ann's husband as James Parker not Palmer. I can't find the attachment from 'tamworth' though.
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this is the transcription of a new paper report from Aberdeen Journal 22 Feb 1804.
I am descended from Ann Young. I have done a lot of research on her and her sister Euphemia and plan to put it up here as a post. I would love to contact others researching Ann and Euphemia.
“An Act for the more effectual Transportation of Felons and other offenders in that part of Great Britain called Scotland grants warrant for detaining the said Margaret Gray Peter Cavanagh Anne Young and Euphemia Young in the Tolbooth of Aberdeen till delivered over for transportation in Terms of this Sentence”
Anne, who is my 4 X great grandmother, and her younger sister Euphemia, arrived in Sydney on the William Pitt on 11 April 1805, with a 5 year sentence. This is their story, beginning on the Streets on Banff resulting in their incarceration in the Aberdeen Tollbooth, and leading to the foundation of a new family on the other side of the world in Windsor, New South Wales.
The Scottish Newspapers reported the apprehension of members of a gang or thieves that wandered the Highway between Banff and Aberdeen.
Anne Young, says she is a native of Enzie in Banff-Shire; she is a good looking woman seemingly about 25 years of age, fair complexion, brown hair, thin and about middle sized, she is at present very big with child, and wears a grey duffle cloak.
Euphemia Young. Who says her mother Rebecca Young lives in Montrose; she is seemingly about 18 years of age, very forward in her manners, good looking, small stature, light brown hair, fair complexion, wears ear rings, sometimes a mutch, at other times ribbons on her hair, and a small black cap or bonnet.
Pat Cavanagh, who says he is a native of Armagh in Ireland; he is about 40 years of age; has ugly features, and is blind in his left eye; he seems to be well known from his attending fairs, carrying on the trick of pricking the garter.
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carrying on the trick of pricking the garter
Fast and Loose was also called Pricking the Garter
http://www.chefanton.com/scoundrelsstore/fl_notes.htm
ev
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ev,that's very interesting! Thanks for that explanation.
flst
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Is the relationship of Anne and Euphemia confirmed as sisters (given the notice in the Aberdeen Journal of 22nd February 1804? Euphemia led an "interesting" life in NSW and I am attempting to find her possible relationship to another convict from Aberdeen (although convicted in London) named John Ritchie born c1775 died 1860 . It appears that John Ritchie raised at least one of Euphemia's children as his own - she used the surname Ritchie- and that child was the main beneficiary of his will. Ritchie may also have had a sister with the surname of Brown whose son was transported to Tasmania.
Any help or thoughts on the above would be much appreciated. The death record for Euphemia Young is a burial record only -no names of parents recorded -and for John Ritchie in 1860 the knowledge of wife number 4 (or 5) did not even extend to naming his children or other wives.
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I have transcribed the article about the vagrants from the Aberdeen Journal of 22 February 1822. This is on another computer. Not sure if I can attach. I live in NSW and have a readers ticket for the State Library here which permits access to a large number of the British Newspapers online and data search in the same manner as Trove from the National Library. I should be able to download and print a copy to send if you don't have access.
The article does not state that Anne and Euphemia are sisters. Where was Pat or Peter Cavanagh sent for his seven years transportation?
Do you have copies of the court documents from Scotland about the case? Not sure of the cost but I know of another person who obtained the trial documents for their convict ancestor and the background information was GREAT.
Early convict indents for NSW did not usually contain personal details or description as they did later on so there would be no record of a previous marriage for Anne so as long as she was prepared to say that she was single or widowed. I know of one case where someone with a Ticket of Leave wanted to marry and his old convict indent was trotted out and permission was denied in 1847- 20 years after he arrived. His wife actually came to NSW and died here about ten years before that request was made. There was no seven year forget the previous spouse clause.
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Thanks, but I do have the 22 Feb article. I also have another,2 May and a letter re the trial dated 25 April 1804. I don't have the actual trial, but it would be great to have, but as you said sounds expensive.
Peter Cavanagh died in the prison hulk Retribution, moored at Woolrich 20 April 1810 or 1811. You can see those registers on Ancestry
I have looked at various trees etc on Ancestry and see what you are saying about Ellen Morgan mar Price. I have no idea about it really.
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Hi,
Ive been following this thread since yesterday, im finding it interesting.
Peter Cavanagh, Address: Prisoner in Aberdeen. Entry relating to the crime of theft. Date of trial: 24 Apr 1804, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty, art and part, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years, Note: Diet continued on 25 April 1804; sentencing took place on 26 April 1804 (see JC11/47, f.60r)
Ann Cavanagh, wife of Peter Cavangh, m.s. Young, Address: Prisoner in Aberdeen. Entry relating to the crime of theft. Date of trial: 24 Apr 1804, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty, art and part, Sentence: Transportation - 5 years, Note: Diet continued on 25 April 1804; sentencing took place on 26 April 1804 (see JC11/47, f.60r)
Euphemia Young, Address: Prisoner in Aberdeen. Entry relating to the crime of theft. Date of trial: 24 Apr 1804, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty, art and part, Sentence: Transportation - 5 years, Note: Diet continued on 25 April 1804; sentencing took place on 26 April 1804 (see JC11/47, f.60r)
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
I got some stuff from the Scotland archives a few years back and found their prices to be fair, tho i cant remember how much ::) I also found them very helpful. I would be inclined to email them and ask for a quote for any records you may want.
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Ann's baby would have been born before she was sent out here, i wonder what happened to the poor baby.
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Euphemia et al were all held in the Tolbooth in Aberdeen. I wonder whether Ann's baby even survived?
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Quite some time ago I said that Peter Cavanagh had died on the Hulk Retribution , 1810/11. The copy I had was very small, I have since seen a larger copy which is easier to read, and he was actually discharged , not died, 20 April 1810/11. No idea what then happened to him. Sorry for misinformation.
But I have now become a little confused about James Parker. I, like others assumed him to be the convict from Atlas 2, and this could still be the case. However, two articles in "Australian Town and Country Journal" (on Trove website) make for a little confusion. The first article 23 May 1896 is about death of their daughter Ann m1 Livingston m2 Eades. She died 5 May 1896. This article says her father, James Parker was in the 102nd regiment. Also that mother was 99 when she died.
The other article15 July 1876 is about Ann Parker sr. It says she was believed to have been the oldest resident in the colony at time of death "a short time ago"- no exact date, Says her husband had died about 30 years previously and that he had been "a soldier in one of the first detachments sent out to New South Wales." Would make his death about 1846. Does say she had been in Bathurst district for 56 years.
Guess it could just be, that at the time, family did not want it known about convict past.
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Thank you for that Janbal. I also wondered what happened to the child Ann was carrying when convicted.
I note that Brucetee is a descendant of Ann Young from his posting on 31st January 2013. I was hoping he might respond about confirmation of the relationship between Ann and Euphemia Young - arrested together in 1804.
It seems that quite a few families went with the story that their ancestors were part of the military guard for the convicts - John Ritchie who I mentioned earlier as having some relationship with Euphemia -was also noted in a local history of the early 20th century as becoming acquainted with a person who purchased some of his land from their service in the same regiment.
Lorraine
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Hello,
My husband is a descendent of James and Ann. I have rechecked all my information on James and I
believe he is the James who arrived on the Atlas. Every record tallies. It is frustrating that we have no death record for him. In the future I hope to go through any farm/ estate records in the Bathurst area as a land owner may of recorded a burial or death on his property.
As for Ann we still do not know if Euphemia is her sister. She did name one of her children Euphemia though. Hopefully DNA may prove or disprove the relationship.
Regards
Cai
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Hi there,
Like you, I still think James P was convict on Atlas. Have you looked at the NSW Register of Land Grants and Leases 1792 1876 on Ancestry? there are a number of entries for James Parker at Bathurst, even one for an Ann Parker 1811, at Richmond which could well be her. Still no proof of whether Ann and Euphemia sisters but think quite possible, although it is strange that the Aberdeen articles say that Ann's mother was at Enzie which is near Forabers and E's mother at Montrose which is in Dundee
Jan Balgowan
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Scots magazine:
Ann Young wife of the said Peter Cavanagh
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=IxEbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA397&lpg=PA397&dq=scots+magazine+euphemia+young&source=bl&ots=Mfj-Mfo4MI&sig=66unaRiH9f9tL65tSnTNcs2inE0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LjWeVPvEG8nt8gXZnYH4BQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=scots%20magazine%20euphemia%20young&f=false
The surname Young was a gypsy name in scotland (btw) if Peter Cavanagh was well known at fairs and they roamed the highway maybe they were gypsies? Maybe some DNA could prove a gypsy relationship too
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Hello again,
You may already have seen this and I'm not sure if the right James Parker. But Google "Queen Charlotte's Vale" "James Parker" There is an interesting article re a James Parker in the Samuel Rooney piece. He is in 1828 census as living in Brisbane , which confused me until I realised that it was probably Brisbane Valley. Don't know if this is of any significance, but Pat Hanrahan applied for land there in 1836 and probably moved there late 18136
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Thanks for that re Scots mag. I do have a copy. though.They may well have been gypsies, I have no idea. Cavanagh was from Armagh Ireland. Lots of Irish went over to work in the Scottish coal mines and the spinning/ weaving industries in late 1700's early 1800s', who knows why he did.
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I have just read the article re James Parker and Queen Charlotte Vale. The James Parker would be the son of James and Ann as it stated he was born in the colony. George Schofield talks about meeting 'old Parker'. This means we have James in Bathurst in 1828 and now in 1834.
We have had our DNA done through 23and me. They don't test for gypsy blood but there is a DNA site that does. I will see if we can transfer our results to them.
Cai
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"THE OLDEST RESIDENT."
The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser Saturday 8 July 1876 p 47 Article
"We find it announced in the Bathurst Times that a Mrs. Parker, who is beiieved to have been the oldest resident in the colony at the time of her death, departed this life a short time ago. The deceased was almost a centenarian, having reached her 98th year in March last. She arrived in this colony in the ship William Pitt in 1804, only sixteen years after the foundation of the colony, the British standard having first been raised on the shores of Port Jackson in 1788. The
deceased's husband, who has been dead about thirty years, was a soldier in one of the first detachments sent out to New South Wales. Mrs. Parker had resided in the neighbourhood of Bathurst for some fifty-six years, and crossed the Blue Mountains before Bathurst was in existence, beyond its mere name. We are informed that, including children, grand children, and great-grandchildren, the deceased's descendants at present number about 120."
It appears that the Bathurst Times (newspaper quoted) copies have not survived for so the exact date of the article is unknown. There is no record of an Ann Parker in NSW Deaths in 1875/1876 or any Parker female registered at Bathurst in those years. Presuming that the family provided the details for the paper they have obviously continued with the myth of their father serving in the regiment BUT they have correctly identified the "William Pitt" as the ship on which Ann arrived although missing the date by two years. Given that the article about the death of their daughter Ann Eades (May 1896)states that her mother died twenty years earlier the family seem to be pretty good with dates but the the only burial of a James Parker around the 30 years earlier mark is in 1848. This James Parker was aged 88 and he was buried in the Roman Catholic church St James Sydney. There does not appear to be a probate record for either James or Ann. 56 years residence at Bathurst is an exaggeration as the family were living at Windsor for the 1825 Muster. The 1828 Census does give "Atliss" (sic) as the name of the ship of arrival for James Parker in 1802. He has an Absolute Pardon with children born in the colony and the whole family is noted as being protestant. Lorraine
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Hi Lorraine,
It is strange that no death can be found for either James or Ann Parker.I have a copy of a page from "A history of Bathurst vol2" which has a photo of the old South Bathurst Cem. which shows some graves of various people inc a number of Nevilles of our family( various spellings), none of which seem to appear in NSW BDM index. The photo was apparently from "The Australian Town & Country) 1899. I wonder whether James may have been buried there. I don't have any more info re that cem.or the book which I saw in Bathurst years ago.
On Ancestry there is a James Parker died Abercrombie District V1837 279321. He is a possibility as he appears to be in the Brisbane Valley area from 1828 until at least 1834.
Who, knows, they may turn up one day!
Jan B
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Hi Jan
I think we can assume that James Parker was still alive as late as September 1839 and early 1840 when the land grant of 62 acres named "Hope Hill" Lot at Queen Charlotte's Vale was confirmed. He was authorised to take possession of this land in March 1831. This grant was in lieu of 100 acres promised in 1830 by Sir Ralph Darling. The grant would not have been issued in his name if he had died earlier. The beneficiaries of his estate or those family members making a claim would have required an application stating his date of death and the details of their claim. The burial for James Jnr in July 1850 is also not in the surviving church registers. There is an article in the Bathurst paper only- also no inquest noted. The burial at Abercrombie in 1837 is for an infant. What is particularly strange about Ann's death is that after March 1856 there was a penalty for not registering a birth, death or marriage in NSW. I think that the Bathurst BDMS register may have been lost and not transferred to Sydney. Sometimes deaths were not registered if there was an inquest but I doubt if there would have been an investigation into the death of a 98 year old!
Lorraine
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Hello,
I had assumed that the land grant was for James junior but off course in family history you can never assume anything. The Bathurst registers may well have gone missing as I have another Bathurst family that just disappeared. (James and Ellen Dooley)
I have a photograph of James jnr's grave if anyone is interested.
Cai
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Hi again,
Must admit it sounds as though a register has some how disappeared.
Jan B
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As mentioned before, I am a descendant of Ann Young and James Parker via their daughter Euphemia Essina Parker who married John Popple.
This is the information I have re James Parker : Quote...At age 16 James Parker played a part in the Irish uprising of 1798 (he was Protestant). What crime he committed is unknown. There were no Irish records for that time as all political prisoners were then tried by court marshall. He was tried in Dublin in 1801, given transportation for life, and travelled to NSW on the ship 'Atlas' arriving in Sydney on 30th October, 1802. He was later given an absolute pardon on 31 March 1813. This was most unusual and was in consideration of his having informed a guard about various people involved in stealing cattle in NSW, who were then prosecuted to conviction. He was a stockman for George Thomas Palmer. The 1814 muster taken at Windsor listed his wife, Ann Young and three children, one of these being Margaret whom he had married in 1810. He applied for and was given a land grant, but later sold it. He then worked on Palmer's property, "Parratta" in Bathurst.
ErrorSPAM
REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.
]I don't know how accurate this information is, can anyone confirm it?[/color]
RayS
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You may all have this info. but just in case - Have just found a map of 62 acre grant to James Young (Land & Property Information NSW Govt. Historical records online,Historical
parish maps) and seems he called his farm"Hope Hill" just on outskirts of Bathurst.
The Sydney Gazette and NSW Advertiser Sep 14 1839.
no 599 James Parker. Sixty two acres, parish of Bathurst, No 10 of the allotments ( actually shows up as no 16 on map)in Queen Charlotte's Vale.
Promised by Sir Ralph Darling on the 24th Nov 1830 and possession given on 31st March 1831, as a small grant.
Quit rent 10s 4d sterling per annum, commencing 1st Jan 1834.
Don't know if this is of any help.
Jan B
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Hi caimein,
This is my first contact in RootsChat. I may have the solution regarding Ann's children. I am also a descendent of her and James Parker, but only found out about her trial in Aberdeen when I visited the Vinegar Hill Rebel centre last month in Ireland. Ann was assigned to Sargent Thomas Whittle when she arrived in 1806. Her son must have survived the voyage, and she may then have had another child to either Whittle or James Parker, as her son James Junior was born in or about 1806. He died aged 45 years and was buried near Orange in 1850 in the Chinamen's Bend Cemetery next to the Bush Inn that was run by his younger sister Jane and her husband Michael McCabe. This information is supported by the evidence Ann gave at the trial of James Leeson in Sydney Court in 1808. The defendant had been caught with a role of gurrah on the Windsor Road. He had stopped at the Government stockyard where Ann was employed. She have him some refreshment for which he gave her ".....a few yards of material which I used to make some garments for my children". One may have been the child of Whittle or even that of Cavanagh, as the date of James Junior death suggests he was born in 1805/06 when Ann arrived. She had another child named James to James Parker but much later. The connection with Whittle would also explain her daughter's statement in 1876 that her mother had been "married" to a soldier in the NSW Corps. Would love to hear your thoughts. Ross
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Hi Lorraine,
I have just sent a reply to caimein re Ann Young. I am new to rootschat so I do not know if it was posted. I believe Essiena was Ann's sister because Ann named one of her children after her. I have more information available about her life. Ross
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Hi Ross & welcome to rootschat. Once you've made 3 posts you will be able to use the private message system. This will be useful when exchanging personal details such as email addresses etc. The information you posted on this topic is very interesting & I'm sure rootschatters will enjoy reading about your findings :)
flst
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Hi Tamworth,
I am also a descendent of Ann Young. I also assume that James Parker was tried as a political prisoner as he was court marshalled in Dublin in 1801 at the age of 18 years. There were no indents or assignment records for the Atlas II but records indicate that most of the prisoners were Vinegar Hill rebels and that they were sent to Castle Hill Farm. He was pardoned as you say and received payment for clearing land in the Windsor area whilst working for John Palmer. The land grant he received in 1820 at Pitt Town; about 30 acres. He eventually crossed the mountains with the family and did indeed work for George Palmer near Bathurst as a shepherd with his son James junior. Ann was a hutkeeper, the only female noted in the 1835 Muster. I am descended from their daughter Jane, born in 1819 at Windsor. Have more details available. Regards, Ross
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Hi Everyone,
I'm also a descendant of Ann Young and James Parker - I've just confirmed this with DNA.
There must be a lot of us now, if there were 120 descendants in 1876.
I always knew Catherine (or Kate Parker) was part of my family as the mother of Thomas Kelly (1838-1900) she was listed on the death certificate of both his and his father (also Thomas Kelly) however there was no registrations to prove who she was. Through DNA it seems Catherine the daughter of Ann & James had a relationship with Thomas Kelly snr between her two husbands - Robert Muckleroy and Edward Richard Hughes.
If anyone else has done a DNA test and wants to compare my results plus a number of other descendants from Thomas Kelly's results are loaded to GEDmatch.com - kits #T926980, T112301, T162475, T147621.
Regards
Mary
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A little more to add to Ann Young. She was transported on the William Pitt in 1805. The India Fleet that accompanied the convict ships was also an invasion fleet that attacked Cape Town. Ann's ship stood off Robben Island while the troops were landed over two days before the assault on the Dutch garrison. They routed the Dutch who fled inland eventually surrendering to the British. Their ally France, under Napoleon failed to send reinforcements, so the British held the fort for the next 150 years until South Africa's independence. It was strategically vital for the transportation of convicts to Australia
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Hi,
First post on what is an old thread so I am not hopeful of getting a reply, however, I too am related to Ann Young (through Euphemia Young - assuming she is the sister of Ann). Despite having no direct connection with Ann I am curious about her history as her children would have been cousins of people who I am directly related to.
I would like to be clear in my own mind as to what the consensus is on the immediate descendants of Ann Young given the information already posted on this forum.
Is this how the tree would look?
1. Ann Young (1778-1876) (m. before 1804) Peter Cavanagh (1764- )
2. Unknown Cavanagh (1804 - after 1808)
2. James "Parker" (1806 - 1850) - Father unknown - Possibly Sargent Thomas Whittle
1. Ann Young (1778-1876) (m. 1810) James Parker (1784-1850)
2. Margaret Parker (1809-1895)
2. Catherine Parker (1814-1898)
2. Ann Parker (1817-1896
2. Jane Parker (1818-1862)
2. Euphemia Essina Parker (1819-1908)
2. Esther Parker (1820-1820)
2. Mary Ann Parker (1825-1887)
If I have correctly read the previous posts there is a possibility that there was another James Parker in the family born before or after Mary Ann Parker. Is that right?
Also, there is some confusion about the deaths of James Parker (born 1784) and James Parker (born 1806). Did they both die in 1850?
I guess what rossmcmillan is saying above is that Ann's child to Peter Cavanagh must have survived because in 1808 she testifies to having at least two children in the court case and Margaret Parker wasn't born until at least 1809. Is this correct? If so, do we know the name of this Cavanagh child?
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Everything looks correct to me for children of Ann but there was a son called James Parker born around 1806 and died 14 Jul 1850 - he was married to Esther Bell in 1834. James snr is thought to have died around the same time but there is no record I have found of his death.
I haven't ever found any evidence of the Cavenagh child and the timing of James jnr seems suspect as if he was born in 1806, Ann only arrived in Australia in Apil 1806 and didn't marry James Parker until April 1910. I'm interested in the 1808 court case you mention as I have only found her 1804 trial where she was pregnant.
I'm a Catherine Parker descendant and myself and family have DNA matches with a James descendant.
Regards
Mary
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Thanks for getting back Marycs23
I included James Jnr in my list. I just put him above the children born after Ann married James Parker.
If you want to see the article about the court case in 1808 you can try this page.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/GMCH-P4Y
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Here is the Trove newspaper cutting for the death announcement in 1876
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107179625 Evening News 8 July 1876
On reading that cutting I offer that her death 'a short while ago' was in May or June of that year and was in NSW. So there's some reasons for not finding her death indexed at the online NSW BDM. Firstly the index was not in existence until a team of volunteers transcribed the records in the 1930s, so the Registrar General's copy if it existed would have been received as part of a quarterly return from the local deputy Reg Gen officer for perhaps the Bathurst district, back in Oct 1876. IF (and this is a possible) that quarterly return was a) not sent b) not received c) too difficult to transcribe at the time then it has not ever been actioned by the clerks in the then 1876 Reg Gen's office
HOWEVER, NSW BDM death certs are quite detailed, and even in 1876 they included the equivalent of the burial order, so were lodged locally with the deputy registrar by the undertaker after he had obtained family info, the medico's signature confirming the deceased was deceased and causes etc.
So a search may be needed of all the many cemeteries in the Bathurst district .... an extensive district then and still is now...
If the death was sudden and she had not been under the care of a medico for several weeks, then the police magistrate in that district would have needed to consider if there were suspicious circumstances and involve a coroner or at least a Justice of the Peace.... But a burial order may have been issued at that time, and BEFORE any coroner's enquiry happened. IF THAT IS THE CASE .... well, in many instances in that era ... once the undertaker had a burial order, he proceeded with the burial and then he had no further need to remember to do any further paperwork, for it was often the case that the Police Magistrate or at least the clerk of petty sessions, or the sheriff or their spouse was the part time deputy Registrar.... sparse populations spread over huge territories, not many BDM events, so not much practised knowledge on handling the bdm paperwork for the Sydney Registrar General who was also responsible for Land Titles, Deeds, Land Sales, Conditional Purchases/leases etc etc etc.
So it is entirely possible that her death was registered and is mis-transcribed, or was registered locally and not adequately transmitted to Sydney HQ, or has been lost in the EDP system when NSW BDM first computerised back in the 1970s and 80s, and recalled all the non metropolitian registers to HQ.
There are other clerical admin issues, but those seem to me to be the significant ones, assuming she died in the Bathurst BDM District ... similar thoughts though for other non Metropolitian BDM districts with infrequent need to register bdm events, thus part timers responsible for the clerical recordings.
JM
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I suspect that Ann's death must have occurred only a week or two before the article. The Maitland Mercury printed the same article just a few days later.
It would be interesting, as suggested above, if Sergeant Thomas Whittle turned out to be the real father of James Parker Jnr. because that would seem to be the root of the story that James Parker Snr was in fact a soldier rather than a convict.
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I am a descendant of Anne Young and James Parker. Their daughter Mary Anne Parker married Joseph Bowyer and their daughter Mary Anne Bowyer married John Coneybeer their daughter Irene Coneybear was my grandmother. I am interested in putting together the puzzle of Anne Young and Peter Cavanagh. If I find out what happened to Peter Cavanagh after his discharge from the Hulk Retribution, I will post it here. I am assuming he appealed his sentence at the time.
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Just got your post. I have lots of information about Ann Young but very little regarding Cananagh. I will be interested to know what became of him after serving his 7 years. If he served it out on a prison hulk he probably avoided transportation to Australia like Ann and her sister Euphemia.
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Has anyone followed up the reference in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland?
Repository National Records of Scotland
Reference JC26/1804/26
Title Porteous Roll (with Precepts for Aberdeen sitting) for the county of Banff, for the Circuit Court of Justiciary (North Circuit, Spring) to be held at Aberdeen.
Dates 24 April 1804
Access status Open
Location On site
Description Indicted for trial:
1. Margaret Keith alias Tough, presently prisoner in the tolbooth of Abderdeen, for the crime of theft, and being a habit and repute thief. Pleaded not guilty of 1st act of theft; guilty of 2nd act of theft and of being a habit and repute thief. Found guilty of 2nd act of theft and of being a habit and repute thief. Sentenced to transportation beyond the seas for 7 years.
2. Janet Monro, alias Ross, presently prisoner in the tolbooth of Aderdeen, for the crime of theft. Diet deserted pro loco et tempore;
Margaret Gray, presently prisoner in the tolbooth of Aderdeen, for the crime of theft. Pleaded not guilty. Found guilty of 2nd act of theft, others not proven. Sentenced to transportation beyond the seas for 5 years;
Peter Cavanagh, presently prisoner in the tolbooth of Aderdeen, for the crime of theft. Pleaded not guilty. Found guilty of 3rd act of theft, others not proven. Sentenced to transportation beyond the seas for 7 years;
Anne Young, wife of said Peter Cavanagh, presently prisoner in the tolbooth of Aderdeen, for the crime of theft. Pleaded not guilty. Found guilty of 3rd act of theft, others not proven. Sentenced to transportation beyond the seas for 5 years
Euphemia Young, presently prisoner in the tolbooth of Aderdeen, for the crime of theft. Pleaded not guilty. Found guilty of 3rd act of theft, others not proven. Sentenced to transportation beyond the seas for 5 years.
Papers also include Precepts for the Aberdeen sitting: precepts of publication; lists of assize; letters of execution against assizers and witnesses.
Level File
Creator name High Court of Justiciary: Aberdeen
Previous numbers JC26/321
Related material JC11/47/f.53v-54r, 60v-r;
JC11/47/f.55v-58v, 60r-61v, 82r-85v;
JC26/1804/6
Original catalogue entry (shrunk link) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sp2/
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The Aberdeen Journal, Wednesday 2nd May 1804:
Aberdeen
WEDNESDAY, MAY 2.
We stated in our last the procedings of the
Circuit Court here, which met on Tuesday. The
Court met again on Wednesday and Thursday,
and concluded the business of the Circuit, when
the following sentences were pronounced:
.................[details of other case]..................
Janet Monro, alias Ross, Margaret Gray, Peter
Cavanagh, Anne Young, wife of the said Peter
Cavanagh, and Euphemia Young, vagrants, accus-
ed of theft and of habit and repute thieves;
they were found guilty, after a trial of 8 hours.
The diet against Janet Munro, alias Ross, was
deserted pro loco et tempore. Cavanagh was sen-
tenced to seven years transportation; and Mar-
garet Gray, Anne Young, and Euphemia Young
to be transported for five years.
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I thought James Parker Jnr from Queen Charlottes Vale was from a different Parker family but now I'm not so sure. I think it was him who married Ester Bell in 1834. The thing that threw me was that they married in Sydney and moved to Bathurst. Still not sure.
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Hello,
I am also a descendant of Ann Young. Ann and James Parker's youngest daughter married Joseph Bowyer.
Ann Young m James Parker 1810
Mary Ann Parker m Joseph Bowyer 1829
Mary Bowyer m John Coneybeer 1881
Irene Coneybear m Ralph Victor Garlick 1921
Ralph Garlick m Clarice Isbester 1944
Cheryl Garlick m Ron Stevens 1969
I am happy to pass any information on if I can help but you probably have more than me.
I did find that James Parker Jnr (probably) not James' son is buried at Chinamans Bend cemetery between Orange and Lucknow. I have so many ancestors from Orange. My Aunt Merna Garlick married Frank Lawry. They had a cherry orchard at Lucknow. I wish I had know more history when they were alive.
Regards,
Cheryl Stevens
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Hi Cherobanne,
I could not find Peter Cavanagh's record in the Register of the Retribution Hulk at Woolwich but there were several mentions of a Michael Cavanagh. Can you post where this record can be viewed as you say he served out his seven year sentence and was released.
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I have been trying to cut and paste the information i have but doesn't want to work. I did get it from Ancestry when I was a member. I can send if you can some how send me your email address. I am not very good at navigating these pages. Happy to help in any way I can.
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Hi Cerobanne,
I tracked Ann Young and her sister when they were sent from Scotland to board the female convict ship to NSW, but Peter Cavanagh's situation was not clear. Thanks for offering the info as I will add it to my own records. My email address is:
Email address removed as per rules.You will have to communicate by private message.
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I have found this information on Thomas Whittle. It may add to the theory that at least one child of Anne Young is the child of Thomas Whittle. I would have been at the government stockyard at the same time as Ann.
WHITTLE, Thomas (Thomas WHITTLE)
Soldier, "drum-major" (sergeant-major), New South Wales Corps
Born Dublin, Ireland, c. 1764
Arrived Sydney, NSW, 7 October 1792 (per Royal Admiral, from England)
Departed Sydney, NSW, Sydney, NSW, 12 May 1810 (per Dromedary and Hindostan, for England)
Discharged England, 25 August 1811
https://sydney.edu.au/paradisec/australharmony/register-W-2.php#WHITTLE-Thomas (shareable link to this entry)
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Hi Cheryl,
All the rubbish about Ann being married to Whittle was perpetrated by her children. She claimed to have married Cavanagh but did not. I am almost certain that the child she bore Cavanagh is James Parker Junior. All the numbers add up for this to being the case. She was assigned to Whittle when she arrived in Sydney in 1806. She appeared in the 1806 Muster, but was also included in the addended file conducted by Samuel Marsden to show all the illegitimate children and unmarried women in the colony. He referred to them as Concubines. Only children born in the Anglican Church were legitimate in his eyes of this conceited bastard. Whittle was married to another women and had several children with her. This is where a lot of the confusion started. Why Ann claimed she was married to Whittle may have been to inflate her own importance. Whittle was infamously involved with Johnstone and Macarthur in the Rum Rebellion that toppled Governor Bligh. None of her children she later had with James Parker ever met him but probably knew about him. When Ann died in 1876, her daughter perpetuated the myth about her mother. I have a huge file on the Parkers and can send them to you if you provide your email.
Regards,
Ross
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I do agree with you Ross in the most part. It is mentioned that she lived with Thomas Whittle so she may have had a child to him. I don't think I ever said she was married to him. I don't believe she was. It would be interesting to read what you have. You do have my email address as I did send you some information that I had collected. It is so good to have this discussion. All the very best.