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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: heiserca on Monday 30 April 12 01:29 BST (UK)
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I have two names, trying to determine if they are the same person:
HELEN LOCKHART was born 15 Aug 1815 at Dumbarton, parents John Lockhart and Janet McFarlan or MacFarlane, according to the IGI. No other information about her is known to me.
ELLEN LOCKHART was born about 1816, exact date unknown, place unknown. She appeared seemingly from nowhere, and married James Clezie, on 11 June 1840, at Troy, New York.
Could these women - Helen Lockart and Ellen Lockhart - be the same person?
Is there any indication that Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton emigrated to the USA?
Children of Ellen Lockhart were named:
James (after the child's father, James)
George (after the father's father)
Margaret Jane (origin unknown; Jane could be from Janet)
Mary (origin unknown)
Helen Orr (maybe it was Eleanor?)
William James
Ellenor (again maybe Eleanor?)
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1841 census shows Janet Lockhart, 40, sons Charles, 20, and Duncan, 18, living at Thimble Street, Renton. It also says Cardross. Are Renton and Cardross the same, or very near? Janet's husband, James, was missing from the census, might have died.
Their daughter, Helen, was also missing! She would be about 25 in 1840. Maybe she emigrated to the USA, before 1840, was called Ellen, and married James Clezie at Troy, New York in June 1840? If so, she is my great-great-grandmother! This is still just wild speculation - how can I find out?
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Hi
Renton is a village between Dumbarton and Alexandria. In the early days everything West of the river Leven was under the registration district of Cardross. This changed in the 1860, and the west-end of Dumbarton, on the other side of the Leven came under Dumbarton. I think!!
The only way you can know for definate is to obtain Ellen's death certificate. I believe there are some New York death certificates available on line sites. If you are a member of Ancestry you could trace her on the American census.
I also have Jane McFarlane's in my list of ancestors, so will go and have a check on them. Good Luck with your search.
Liz
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Thank you, Liz. I have Ellen's death certificate but it shows nothing useful. She died 27 Oct 1899 at Cleveland, Ohio, USA. The certificate merely says she was born in Scotland, and does not name her parents. Census returns give no useful information.
Her husband, James Clezie, was born at Edrom, Berwickshire, 1816; moved with his parents to Edinburgh, about 1820; a young sister and brother died there of measles in late 1831; within months of their deaths, their family emigrated to Montreal, Canada, 1832; they moved on to Toronto before 1839; somehow Ellen and James met and married at Troy, New York, June 1840, stayed there for 3 years, then moved to Toronto about 1844, where they rejoined his parents; finally, James, Ellen and children moved to Cleveland, Ohio, about 1853, and settled there. Despite all this movement, across the ocean, living in 3 countries, I can find no record of Ellen's origin, where in Scotland she came from. She seems to be a woman without a past.
Rick
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Would the marraige certificate give any more information? Brickwall's are really difficult to negotiate. Our ancestors should have been more considerate!!
Liz
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Alas, the marriage certificate also says nothing useful. Did they meet in Toronto, and elope to be married in exotic Troy, New York? Or maybe James went to Troy for work, met Ellen there and fell in love? We simply don't know.
This is why I grasped at the slender reed, Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton. She bears a superficial resemblance to Ellen, the right age, similar names. But Helen may indeed have stayed and made her life in Dunbartonshire, while Ellen had adventures in Canada and the USA. Not a trace of where she came from! I think of her as "Ellen of Troy", like the mythical Helen who so inspired the Greeks. But that is just silly poetry - Ellen had a past that is waiting to be discovered.
Rick
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Since I posted the original question, may as well post my answer too: after considering other possibilities, and the other Helen Lockharts born in Scotland during that time-frame, I am reasonably certain that Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton was the same person as my ancestor Ellen Lockhart. Iron-clad proof? No. Just probability. I'm proceeding on that basis, until new evidence comes to light.
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Wise to link some of the many scattered threads on the subject, but probably best to retract that surmise in this one now. ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,601912.msg4578540.html#msg4578540
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Ellen Lockhart that I am seeking was born about 1816, somewhere in Scotland, according to census records.
Helen Lockhart, born 15 Aug 1815, christened 20 Aug 1815 at Dumbarton, is a close match! An online tree with this Helen Lockhart does not show any marriage or death, suggesting that she disappeared! Might this Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton have emigrated to North America before 1840? How to find out?
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There is an 1840 marriage of Helen Lockhart to William Kirkpatrick in Dumbarton.
Which is precisely why you ruled her out in your thread in the Canada forum when I first listed the available/known candidates and suggested trying to track them down in order to rule each one out if possible:
1. b 1815, Dumbarton, parents John Lockhart, Janet McFarlane
2. b. 1813, Dundonald, parents John Lockhart, Janet Walker
3. Helen Sibbald Lockhart, b. 1812, Haddington, parents John Lockhart, Isabella McWilliam
4. b. 1812, Kettle, parents John Lockhart, Margaret Rollo
-- you had rapidly settled on her, and then came back (reply 25, which I specifically linked to in my post above) and said:
I come crawling back, my tail between my legs! I was wrong. Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton stayed in Scotland, married William Kirkpatrick in 184O.
edit - in 1851, Helen Kirkpatrick, born c1820, is living with her mother Janet Lockhard, son William Kirkpatrick, and brothers Charles and Duncan Lockland (all names as transcribed by Ancestry) in Cardross, Dumbartonshire.
FS shows Charles McGlashan Lockhart baptised 1816 and Duncan Lockhart baptised 1818 with the same parents as Helen 1815.
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Yes, I'm aware of this, have seen that marriage record. But still questioning the identification, due to the strong resemblance between Helen b. 1815 and Ellen b. about 1816. Are they one person, or two?
Just discovered a passenger list, the steamer "Canada", 26 July 1834, showed "Lockhart & 1 person above 12 years", travelling from Quebec to Montreal. Ellen Lockhart was 18, fits the description. And coincidentally, the Clezie family were in Montreal at that very moment. Opportunity... but not certainty. Is there any record of emigrants who left Dunbartonshire around 1834? Probably not.
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Did you miss my edit showing the 1851 census in Scotland for that Helen Lockhart? ???
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We are still at a loss to find the origin of Ellen Lockhart, born about 1816 somewhere in Scotland, according to census records.
A "possible" identification: Helen Lockhart, born 15 Aug 1815, baptized 20 Aug 1815 at Dumbarton, Dunbartonshire. They are very close in age, simiar names. Maybe Helen from Dumbarton = Ellen from Troy? If not, we are utterly lost again.
Ellen had two daughters named Eleanor, the first born at Toronto, Canada, 1849, the second at Cleveand, Ohio, 1856. Maybe Ellen was a short version of Eleanor?
Is there some Eleanor / Ellen / Helen, born about 1816, who went to the New World around 1840 and then disappeared?
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There is an 1840 marriage of Helen Lockhart to William Kirkpatrick in Dumbarton.
Which is precisely why you ruled her out in your thread in the Canada forum when I first listed the available/known candidates and suggested trying to track them down in order to rule each one out if possible:
1. b 1815, Dumbarton, parents John Lockhart, Janet McFarlane
2. b. 1813, Dundonald, parents John Lockhart, Janet Walker
3. Helen Sibbald Lockhart, b. 1812, Haddington, parents John Lockhart, Isabella McWilliam
4. b. 1812, Kettle, parents John Lockhart, Margaret Rollo
-- you had rapidly settled on her, and then came back (reply 25, which I specifically linked to in my post above) and said:
I come crawling back, my tail between my legs! I was wrong. Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton stayed in Scotland, married William Kirkpatrick in 184O.
(edit) in 1851, Helen Kirkpatrick, born c1820, is living with her mother Janet Lockhard, son William Kirkpatrick, and brothers Charles and Duncan Lockland (all names as transcribed by Ancestry) in Cardross, Dumbartonshire.
And I'll add now: in 1841 Helen Kirkpatrick is living with Janet Lockhart and Charles, Duncan and John, and 11-mo-old William Kirkpatrick who would be her son, in Cardross. An Ancestry user corrected her surname in 2011, from "Kerkputrick" to Kerkpatrick.
>>>> It might be wise to contact that person.
- edit - i.e. to get some of this "proof" you want someone else to provide -- in this case, proof that the Helen Lockhart born in 1815 in Dumbarton to John and Janet is NOT your Ellen, as is perfectly obvious.
FS shows Charles McGlashan Lockhart baptised 1816 and Duncan Lockhart baptised 1818 with the same parents as Helen 1815.
???
I wouldn't want anyone else to spend time on that one again.
The likelihood that Ellen was not closely related to the other Scottish-born Lockharts who were living in the same county in NY state at the same time and getting hatched and matched at the same church remains slim ...
For a summary of that family (the thread contains enormous detail and suggestions for further investigation):
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,601912.msg4590678.html#msg4590678
and in more detail:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,601912.msg4593852.html#msg4593852
And re Elexis Lockhart (below in this thread), who has been absolutely and completely 100% ruled out:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,601912.msg4582486.html#msg4582486 et seq.
(and all the investigation by me that preceded that ruling out by heiserca)
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Too many words, not enough proof. You can't simply browbeat people by shrieking ever more loudly. Maybe someday actual evidence will link Ellen with the Lockharts of Upstate New York. That's a possibility. Without proof, the theory isn't convincing.
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The point, my dear, is that you cannot expect people to keep doing over what has been done. My post was intended to alert anyone newly viewing this thread to the lengthy efforts devoted to your quest already, and in particular to the fact that you yourself had discounted the Dumbarton Helen Lockhart about whom you have again requested information now. People who volunteer their time and effort to help others here deserve not to have that time wasted, and deserve to be treated with more respect generally than you have decided to show. You grow increasingly offensive, and rather blatantly misogynistic.
If you want proof of something, it has been respectfully suggested that you look for it. No one has pretended that any has been offered.
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Time to put this one out of its misery. Ellen Lockhart has been found: not from Dumbarton, and not from Lansingburgh, New York either.
She was born 30 Oct 1816 at Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire, parents John Lockhart & Jean McMillan; christened "Elexis Lockhart" but always called Ellen. The family emigrated to Canada, summer 1821 on the ship "Earl of Buckinghamshire", settled at Ramsay Township, SW of Ottawa. John Lockhart died 1871, buried at Almonte, Ontario. Ellen married James Clezie in 1840, they moved to Cleveland, Ohio, she died 1899. The end.
Thanks to all for your help.
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for info, now updated here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=595931
wherein heiserca entirely adopts my Lockhart-Cloyde hypothesis (in the threads I linked to in my post above) and the suggestion that Ellen was the daughter of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson (later Margaret Cloyde) of Paisley. :)