RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: screwlooose on Thursday 10 May 12 06:36 BST (UK)
-
Hey there. This is my first venture into Scottish ancestry and i have hit a wall already. My 2x Great Grandfather was Robert Calder. He married in Victoria Australia in 1858. On his marrige cert he has his place of birth as Dundee, Ayrshire. Now my interpretaion of maps I have looked at, show these two places as being on opposite sides of Scotland. Can anyone with some expertee's clear my confusion?
He was born about 1819, fathers name was William Calder and his mothers name was Ellen Harper. This is taken from his death cert.
Any help about where to look would be of help.
thx
Duane
-
Hi Duane
Not seeing much so far that is going to help you unfortunately. As you have found, Dundee is in Angus and Ayrshire is a separate county.
Cannot see anything back in Scotland so far for a couple with the names given on his death cert so far.
Any indication from any document as to when he left Scotland? What if anything was showing for his father William's occuapation? What was Robert's occupation? From the little I can see on line, Robert Calder born c. 1820?
Monica
-
I have nothing in writing other than family stuff that says he was a sea captain, but that is just family stuff. I can't find any immigration documents. Unfortunatly the earliest reference I have is as a miner. It was gold rush time so no other occupation given. No occupation for father on marrige cert. On his death cert it has father as Wm. Robert died in 1893 and his will has his age as 74, so 1819 approx.
So any help would be great.
thx
Duane
-
Hello there. I have what I thought was just confusion or a deliberate error in my tree. On my Great Grandfathers marriage cert he has his birth from Dundee, Ayrshire. From what I see they are in two different places. So I left it as an unanswered question. Today though, I watched an Australian WDYTYA with Delta Goodram and one of her relatives was said to have come from Dundee in Ayrshire. Straight away it pricked my interest. Is there a connection between the 2 places or was it a common mistake.
His name was Robert Calder and born around 1819.
Threads merged.
-
I don't know the answer to your question but maybe with some extra info. such as where he was at later dates & when, may help us?
Do you have him on any census records, did he stay in Scotland or did he immigrate?
If you can add all you know it will help others to help you.
For what it's worth...
I would need to check back on SP but I have an ancestor recorded as born 'Beith' & if I recall correctly it was Beith, Fife which wasn't the case as it was Beith, Ayrshire!!!
I spent an absolute fortune trying to locate the birth (pre the free index)!!!
If you can't find your ancestor in Fife then Ayr would be the place?
Where did Robert marry, who did he marry, who were his children & what info. do you have to date please?
Add all you know to save researchers going through info. you may already have.
Annie
-
I forgot to add...
From memory, the family were actually living in Dundee at the time the 'Beith' birth was recorded as being Fife rather than Ayr (on a census)!
Annie
-
Dundee is in Angus which was historically a county, known officially as Forfarshire from the 18th century until 1928. No Ayr and Dundee relationship as far as I know.
-
I wish I had more info. All I have about his Scottish history is from his death cert. it says his father was William Calder, Innkeeper, and his mother was Ellen Harper. I cannot find his immigration to Australia. It was around the gold rush. And as I said on his marriage cert it says he was from Dundee Ayrshire.
I did find a birth for a Robert, father William and mother Helen. Helen and Ellen can be the same but the dates never match nor the location.
-
Just a thought!
Is Dundee very clear to read or could it be Dunure?
Closest name I could find for now in Ayr.
Annie
-
I have attached the section of his marriage cert. Not great clarity but u can make out Dundee and Ayrshire fairly easily. Extreme right.
The closest I could find was a Robert Calder, father William, at the saw mill, mother Helen Findlay. Baptized July 20, 1920 Aboyne, Aberdeen.
-
In 'Dundee' the 'd' looks like 'cl' as the 'd' in 'widow' is formed differently?
Annie
-
Ayrshire certainly looks clear enough. But Dunclee makes no sense, any more than Dundee.
-
Forfarian...
It's a start!
Ayrshire out of the 2 seems the more likely correct place although 'Dun' whatever may be a Farm name, something not actually a 'town/village name'?
Annie
-
No, sorry but I think Dundee is correct. I think the closeup makes it look different if it is zoomed out to normal page size it looks more like a "d" than anything else. Not sure which one is "morre" correct. Maybe just one of those family history things never to be deciphered. I will keep looking. Just funny that it was mentioned in an episode of WDYTYA, if it is incorrect.
-
Is this the death of your Robert CALDER, died 1893, SPOL, age 74...……..?
1893 / 15972 CALDER Robt parents Wm / Ellen (HARPER)
What names do you have for their children?
What names do you see on the marriage certificate, 1858, for witnesses?
-
sorry this doesn't answer the question about Robert but I watched the Delta Goodrem programme and from my understanding they said her ancestor came from Ayrshire but showed an advert for the family business which stated they had a warehouse/shop in Commercial street Dundee Angus
Several Ancestry trees and a baptisim record on Scotlands People show he was born in Adrossan Ayrshire
-
Taking into consideration the 1851 census result as living in Dundee, I wonder if the question about the birth-place was misunderstood, (ie where are you from ?) and the current place of residence ie Dundee was given instead of the birthplace, Ayrshire. This was corrected, as Ayrshire was noted as well, and Dundee was just left recorded to confuse budding genealogists in 2018.
Malky
-
sorry this doesn't answer the question about Robert but I watched the Delta Goodrem programme and from my understanding they said her ancestor came from Ayrshire but showed an advert for the family business which stated they had a warehouse/shop in Commercial street Dundee Angus
Sorry, but I don't understand this. Who or what is Delta Goodrem and is there any connection with Robert Calder?
Also there must be plenty of businesses with branches in both Dundee and Ayrshire.
Several Ancestry trees and a baptisim record on Scotlands People show he was born in Adrossan Ayrshire
I have not been able to find this baptism on the SP index.
-
In the first post the op said they had been watching WDYTYA and in the programme it was stated that one of the ancestor came from Dundee Ayrshire which got his attention
Just trying to clear up any confusion from that programme that's why I said it doesn't answer the Robert Calder question
Sorry for further confusion probably should have quoted first post
-
Ah, thank you.
If this ancestor on WDYTYA was said to be from Dundee, Ayrshire, which is plainly not possible, could the WDYTYA researcher have found the same death certificate? And if not, were both impossible birthplaces recorded by the same clerk or registrar, who for some reason believed, wrongly, that Dundee was in Ayrshire?
-
Ah, thank you.
If this ancestor on WDYTYA was said to be from Dundee, Ayrshire, which is plainly not possible, could the WDYTYA researcher have found the same death certificate? And if not, were both impossible birthplaces recorded by the same clerk or registrar, who for some reason believed, wrongly, that Dundee was in Ayrshire?
No as the programme stated that Deta's ancestor came from Ayrshire and showed an advert for the business in Dundee but never said that Dundee was in Ayrshire
Possibly just the way the op picked up on Ayrshire and Dundee being shown in relation to the programme
-
Yep, OK could be right. I will rewatch it again as I recorded it. If thats correct then I just added 2 and 2 in my head. Thx for the responses, didnt get any closer but it was a long shot. However it still doesnt answer how the marriage cert has Dundee and Ayrshire, but as said it maybe a mystery that will never be resolved.
-
Screwlooose,
My original opinion was based on the County which was Ayrshire & as that info. came from Robert himself my original thought was the spelling of the place name prior was doubtful i.e. not Dundee but something of very similar spelling & there were many Farms around which may not have had names (on maps).
I can't work out why (as Forfarian noted too) why Dundee would be classed as Ayrshire?
I haven't seen the Delta programme, was there a doc./cert. shown with those details & if so, which?
Were the details of place given by Delta's ancestor such as on a marriage?
You must be frustrated with all the questions but it's sure worth re-watching to collect all you hear/see in that episode as we are all trying to help.
Can you tell if the Delta ancestor is in the same area as Robert Calder & same era when the details were written.
Anything at all may help?
Annie
-
As the last post noted, they said Ayrshire and was holding a drawing with the word Dundee underneath so it wasnt actually said Dundee in Ayrshire. It may have been an infrence and as I sad my brain put 2 and 2 together. I will watch it again and just keep trying to work out where. I think I may have to go to records office in Melbourne and see if I can find his arrival to Australia. I know that I will find it and it will just say, 'Scotland' but have to go through the process. In the end we all have questions that can never be answered. But we keep lookin anyway. LOL
Thx for the effort and I never get sick of questions, sometimes they open the door.
-
I have been there on a WDYTYA programme!!!
I saw a name on a DC or whichever cert. same name as one of my own ancestors & I watched the programme over & over many times but couldn't save the doc!
Turned out it wasn't/couldn't have been my ancestor when I eventually managed to transcribe everything from the many viewings ;D
Can you please list the names of his children for a clue?
I noted someone mentioned finding the family on 1851 census but there were no details/lnks to it i.e. have you been able to verify this as it would state where Robert was born?
The info. regarding an online tree with his birth (as Forfarian mentioned) is not visible on SP as I checked this early on myself out of curiosity with the debate of Dundee (Angus/Forfar) or Ayr.
Have you tried to contact the owner of the online tree on 'Fancestry' to enquire as the info. they have is certainly not on SP i.e. may be from other records?
Annie
-
Have you explored the family below in the 1841 census? I think they are the family born Aboyne, Aberdeenshire...in 1851 the son Alexander looks to have been living in Dundee - occupation is listed at a grocer and spirit dealer - birth place Aboyne.
Jen
-
Jen,
Your find was one I'd considered but was thrown off as the surname Harper couldn't be found on baptisms hence asking for the names of the children of Robert.
It does seem a better fit all round.
I wonder if Helen/Ellen had previously been married for the surname of Harper to come up?
Annie
-
I was in two minds Annie but I found a Joseph Calder aged 60 - died Dundee 1839 - Spirit Dealer - born Aboyne, Aberdeenshire so I thought perhaps a connection. Joseph had a daughter died 1838 in Dundee - born on the Island of Mauritius! There is a will (1848) for a William Calder (innkeeper) at SP but it's the other side of the country...
Jen
-
Ok, so I will post what I have. His death registration in 1893 has his age at abt 74. Fathers name Wm, (i assume that is William). Mothers name Ellen Harper, (No idea where that name came from). I havent found any family docs with that name on it.
I have that 1841 sencus in my tree as that was the closest I ever found to him.
There are 2 Robert Calders arrived in Victoria, one in 1853 and one in 1854. The one in 1853 arrived on the ship, 'Hurricane', but the age is 5 yrs out. (I dont mind 1 or 2 years, but 5 gets a bit too much). The one in 1854 arrived on the, 'Lightning', has no age.
Robert married Martha Smith in 1858 in Ballarat Victoria. Marriage cert says Martha was a widow. Maiden name Martha McIntosh. widowed 22 Dec 1857. Marriage cert says she was born in London. Parents I have are Angus McIntosh and Elizabeth Keeble
Children doesnt help
Helen Martha 1859
Elizabeth Mary 1861
Martha Ann 1864
Robert James 1866
-
Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate, 1858.
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1893.
Every detail please......dates, ages,names, occupations, addresses, witnesses, informants....everything.
If you have comments to add, can you put them separately, after the list of details, so that it is clear what is on the certificate, and what is your comment.
-
Ok, so I will post what I have. His death registration in 1893 has his age at abt 74. Fathers name Wm, (i assume that is William). Mothers name Ellen Harper, (No idea where that name came from). I havent found any family docs with that name on it.
I have that 1841 sencus in my tree as that was the closest I ever found to him.
There are 2 Robert Calders arrived in Victoria, one in 1853 and one in 1854. The one in 1853 arrived on the ship, 'Hurricane', but the age is 5 yrs out. (I dont mind 1 or 2 years, but 5 gets a bit too much). The one in 1854 arrived on the, 'Lightning', has no age.
Robert married Martha Smith in 1858 in Ballarat Victoria. Marriage cert says Martha was a widow. Maiden name Martha McIntosh. widowed 22 Dec 1857. Marriage cert says she was born in London. Parents I have are Angus McIntosh and Elizabeth Keeble
Children doesnt help
Helen Martha 1859
Elizabeth Mary 1861
Martha Ann 1864
Robert James 1866
The children do help as the scots had a naming pattern which possibly looks to be followed here but not strictly
Helen after Paternal grandmother
Elizabeth after maternal grandmother
Martha after her mother
Robert after his father
Which may back up Helen/Ellen as his mother pity they didn't have more sons
Have you considered Robert may have been illegitimate
This could be a long shot but what if Robert was illegitimate but took his fathers name of Calder which did happen regulary and he did come frome Angus rather than Ayrshire There is a marriage between a Helen Harper and William Young in Careston Angus in 1821 I can see no sign of a Robert with them or a birth of a Robert Harper/Calder
The reason I ask is my 2x great uncle married in Scotland and his wife was illegtitmate and gives the name of her father on her marriage she dies in NSW after her husband and the name of her father on the death is that of her step father The information is only as good as what the informant knows
On the death cert do they ask for fathers surname or is it only forename and then the presumption is the fathers surname is the same as the childs
-
I was in two minds Annie but I found a Joseph Calder aged 60 - died Dundee 1839 - Spirit Dealer - born Aboyne, Aberdeenshire so I thought perhaps a connection. Joseph had a daughter died 1838 in Dundee - born on the Island of Mauritius! There is a will (1848) for a William Calder (innkeeper) at SP but it's the other side of the country...
Jen
Jen,
Just a quick reply,
CALDER WILLIAM 62
16/07/1848
274/ 20 419 Barry
Calder William
15/3/1848
innkeeper at Maryhill, Barony parish near Glasgow
Glasgow Sheriff Court Inventories
SC36/48/34
I could believe the death may be correct but not the will given the difference in dates/places?
Annie
-
Hi :)
I too saw the will & testament index for a William Calder, innkeeper in Maryhill Glasgow. There is an inventory for a Mrs William Calder, widow in the early 1850s, also Maryhill ref. Apologies, not at home, and just from memory.
Tried to find them and failed in 1841 and wife in 1851 :-\
Monica
-
Just a quick reply,
CALDER WILLIAM 62
16/07/1848
274/ 20 419 Barry
Calder William
15/3/1848
innkeeper at Maryhill, Barony parish near Glasgow
Glasgow Sheriff Court Inventories
SC36/48/34
I could believe the death may be correct but not the will given the difference in dates/places?
Annie
Annie, I think the William in Barry may well be this one that Andy found some years ago:
Hi
The 1841 Scottish census unfortunately is limited in detail, it doesn't show relationships nor actual birthplaces. There is this family that looks interesting
Village of Carnoustie, Civil Parish Barry,Angus
William Calder 50 b Angus occupation Horn (sic)
Helan (sic) Calder 52 b Scotland Occ Horn (sic)
Robert Calder 19 b Scotland Linen H.L.W. (Hand loom weaver?)
Helan (sic) Calder 17 b Scotland Linen h.l.w.
Alexander Calder 15 b Scotland Linen H.L.W.
Born Scotland means they were born in Scotland but not the county of Angus
Carnoustie is about 10 miles from Dundee and it is not uncommon for people, when a long way from home, to give a nearby large town as birthplace.
In Scotland Helen and Ellen are interchangeable.
Andy
This is the original thread www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=628362.0
Monica
-
Thanks Monica,
Related posts always useful! :)
Wendy,
Your post seems very interesting and feasible!
An interesting thread indeed.
Annie
-
Related posts always useful! :)
But wouldn't it be nice to know it's there before one goes off and duplicates research already done.