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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: Sinann on Monday 14 May 12 16:13 BST (UK)
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Can anyone figure out the place P Mc Donnell comes from, I've searched Townland sites, the census, Griffith's and I'm going bleary eyed.
It's from the Westmeath Examiner and is from a report on my g grandmother's funeral. P McDonnell is her brother and I'm hoping he's still living in the home place, if only I could figure out where that is.
It could be a typo or perhaps not even in Westmeath.
Any ideas??
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There are 2 townlands with Collinstown in the name in Westmeath-
1) Collinstown, St. Feighins civil parish, Castletown Poor Law Union
2) Collinstown & Kitotan, Castlelost civil parish, Mullingar Poor Law Union
see http://www.thecore.com/seanruad to find places in Ireland
Can't see 'Strilstown' listed anywhere in Ireland- perhaps a misprint or scanning has mis-transcribed the place?
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It's just the Strilstown I'm looking, but at least you came up with the same spelling as I did, I've been looking at it for so long the only thing I'm sure of is it starts with S and ends in town. ;D
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Closest I can think of is Steelstown :-\
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could the second letter be a smudged 'c' - apparently there's place called Scrilstown in Scotland..
Shane
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Mmmm interesting thought, they are Mc Donnells after all. You would think the paper would put Scotland in the article and I know my g grandmother (well according to the 1901 census) was born in Westmeath, but they may still have had connections to Scotland at the time.
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I cant find anything further on that Scrilstown - most of the searches seem to end up with webpages about the same McKay family and a location of 'Knockando Parish, Scrilstown' - so not quite sure I trust it as accurate....
Shane
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Thanks for trying, if it is Scotland and she was born in Westmeath it's not likely it would help me.
I was hoping I might be able to follow through on Griffiths to find her father's name, if her brother had inherited.
I thought the Kildare side was sparse on information, Westmeath is a desert.
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I think it looks like Strokestown which is County Roscommon !
Tara
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looking at the spacing, unless there's some sort of printing flaw, I dont think either a 't' or 'c' would fit cleanly after the 'S'
I've pasted a copy of a 'c' above, and a 't' below..
S.
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Could it be Streamstown Co Westmeath?
annclare
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Not enough spacing for Streamstown.
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Have you got the full text? - may be clues in that. Is that PP of Collinstown officiating etc? There's a place called Collinstown in Clara, Offaly - just over border from Westmeath. Give full text here and I'll have a look.
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Thanks but I know it's Collinstown in Westmeath it the 'Sirilstown' I'm looking for.
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Could it possibly be as simple as Sorilstown being taken for Coralstown, Westmeath. I know its going from bizarre to ridiculous. Post on a Westmeath board for a check on a Mcdonnell burial at St Agnes RC Burial ground, Coralstown
is worth a try.
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Mmmmmm possibly, I'll have a look into that, thanks
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Hmm. I know a fair bit about placenames and their variations in Ireland but what your asking is a bit like one of those puzzles where you only see a portion and you've to guess the whole! Worth also looking at the mapviewer at www.osi.ie if you haven't done so - zoom in on the region where you think it may be and look through the 'historic mapping' layers - all three, as variations sometimes in content.
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Still haven't found this place, but made a little progress, on several McDonnell records from the church in Collinstown the McDonnell's address is Strillstown, Collinstown seems to be their local church as the girls are getting married there.
So with this spelling (L x 2) I found a report of drainage works from 1848 at Strillstown Mill, the heading above it is Lough na Saggart District - Counties Meath and Westmeath.
At least one of the McDonnell brothers was a Farmer and Miller in 1901 but it was Michael not Patrick.
Had a look at the old maps and lots of mills but none seems to be named.
I have her parents names now, which was my original reason for looking for Strillstown but I'd still like to find it as it's where they were from and just because it annoying not to solve it.
Maybe some day someone will see this and have the answer, clearly the name has changed, Streamstown sounds good but it's a bit far away from Collinstown.
Cheers.
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Lough na Saggart helps - here's a Google map link (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fore,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.670362,-7.13326&spn=0.011174,0.033023&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=60.158465,135.263672&oq=fore,+&t=k&hnear=Fore,+County+Westmeath,+Ireland&z=16)
The small lake surrounded by scrub - Priest's Lake would be the meaning. Maybe mass was said near here in Penal times - just a guess. This is on the border of Meath & Westmeath and near Collinstown/ Fore etc. There was a corn mill on the river flowing from this, below Brogan's Bridge, though as gradient is not great, can't have been much a flow. You can see it on the www.osi.ie mapviewer - look at the 25inch or 6inch historic mapping. It appears to be gone now though you might find ruins of the building or remains of the mill race if you looked on the ground.
Whilst one couldn't be certain, it's pretty likely this was the Strillstown Mill referred to as the catchment area of this drainage is small enough. It seems to be in the townland of Glenidan bordering Brownstown. My guess is that Strillstown is/ was a local townland names - a part of Glenidan. It's quite common to find these 'sub townland' names in Ireland and they are often still known locally if you find people who have grown up in that district. Indeed, they are often still considered townlands but not recognised or known officially - the OS often ignored smaller divisions back in the 1840s when townlands were formalised. If I were you, I'd go there and ask about Strillstown and people who lived there. You could well be pleasantly surprised.
Map 2 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fore,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.66434,-7.141537&spn=0.001397,0.004128&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=60.158465,135.263672&oq=fore,+&t=k&hnear=Fore,+County+Westmeath,+Ireland&z=19)
The site of the mill - might be something in the trees here, ruin of kiln maybe
Moderator Note : Links 'shrunk'
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Well done for finding Lough na Saggart, the fact they spelt it Lough Nasagaart on the maps didn't help any. I was looking at that mill last night, thought it was a good candidate but missed the lough completely.
I think you are right about people still using Strillstown long after it was no longer 'official', it's the only thing that makes sense, I have asked a local woman about it, hopefully I'll hear back from her soon, either way I think I can consider this solved.
Thank you Scollagh for finding that vital Lough and everyone that tried to solve the mystery of the missing townland.
If the lady I asked has anything to say on the subject I'll post it.
Now to find the Dargle wood..........
Almost forgot Michael the famer/miller lives in Glenidan in 1901 I'll go check out Griffiths now and hopefully find their farm.
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here's a link (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,656708,768635,6,7) to that Mill on the 1st Ed.OSI maps
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When you look at placenames in Ireland, you've got to get used to looking through them and seeing variations in spelling. Computers hate it but your average local postman can readily figure out where letters should go. It's part of the culture here and a pity to lose it, which is why I wouldn't be in favour of postcodes at all.
I work with placenames a bit and it's striking how many local townland names there are, that never made the official lists but are still recognised locally. They'd usually only be known to the people of those districts and the local postie.
Dargle Wood? First Dargle that comes to mind is the river rising above Powerscourt and entering sea at Bray, Co.Wicklow? Where is your general area of search?
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Dargle first. I don't really need it to be fully honest more a bit of fun, it again is in the area of Collinstown, I did read an ad in the Westmeath Examiner for a timber auction at Dargle wood. It's just The Dargle was my great grand father's nick name.
Back to the McDs, as I said I had found the fathers name, it was Thomas McDonnell and I have just found Thomas McDaniel in Griffith's in Glenidan with a corn mill and kiln on plot 26, perfect. Thomas's general neighbours in Griffith's have much the same surnames as Michael has in 1901.
I'm happy I've got the home farm.
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That's good :) Dargle though is an unusual name, I see checking that originally it's thought to have been a glen or valley near Bray in Wicklow, which name transferred to the river and perhaps to derive from the Irish word 'dearg'. Thought in this case to relate to reddish coloured rock.
So maybe your g grandfather was a red head or maybe it wasn't Dargle but Gargle, if he was fond of a drop ;)
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So maybe your g grandfather was a red head or maybe it wasn't Dargle but Gargle, if he was fond of a drop ;)
Lovely thought, I'd like to think he did take a drink now and again for his childrens sake.
I know that sounds a bit odd but by all accounts he was a bad tempered man and if his grand son was anything like him, and I think he was the odd drink would have put him in a good mood for a while.
The Dargle was because he was a carpenter as was his second cousin who had the same name so they both needed a nick name to tell them apart.
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Good news the lady I asked was able to comfirm everything, her father had rented the land from the Miller McDonnell and a local historian confirmed the name of the mill as Stirllstown.
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Hello
My Name is Patrick Mc Donnell
And I live in Westmeath and I think we may have some Ancestry links along the line.
I've read some of your posts and think some how there could be a connection
I also have been Researching my Genealogy over the years Especially my Mc Donnell/Mc Donald Line as ive found the family used both Name variants over the years.
(My Great Grandmother Mary Lyons was a district Maternity Nurse who married My Great Grandfather James Mc Donnell in 1899 In Castletown Geoghan and she told my Mother That the Mc Donnell family Were Originally from Scotland and when they married he is listed as Mc Donald.
And my Great Great Grandfather James Mc Donnell address Drumhurlin
(Which I Could Never Find) but I know its north Westmeath near the Barbavilla Estate Married an Anne Mc Keone Collinstown in 1864
And He Gives His Father As Being Thomas Mc Donnell Farmer.
Now I've never been able to pin this Thomas down as I Have found a few over the years which I couldn't make any break through with
But I Have Found out Via The Westmeath Examiner which lead to my researching the Irish Newspapers Archive that Both James Mc Donnell Address Drumhurlin and Patrick Mc Donnell address Drumhurlin were Fined For Poaching Fish in 1888.
And in 1873 In Glenidan in The Not to distant area we are both searching I found A death
For Thomas Mc Donald Miller aged 53 Present Was his Son Patrick.
My Uncle Who is in his Seventys remembers being brought out to relatives who lived in an old mill out in that area.
Im Sure There May Be A Connection.
Patrick
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Hello Patrick and welcome to Rootschat,
I'd need to go through what I have with care but yes I think we must have a connection a good bit back.
The McDonnell's I have so far are
Thomas married Elizabeth Martin
Their children Mary circa 1859 , Michael circa 1861, Patrick circa 1864, Elizabeth b 1865 (my great grandmother ) and Nicholas circa 1866.
Michael inherited the Mill.
A quick look at my notes I see a baptism for 26 Mar 1865 William McDonnell, father James, mother Anne McKeon sponsors Charles Martin and Elizabeth Farrell.
And 1 May 1864 James McDonald marries Anne McKeone witness's John Robinson and Bridget Cullen.
1Jan 1918 Patrick McDonnell marries Margaret Bolan his parents James McDonnell and Anne McKeon witness's C McKeon and Marcella McDermott.
I have other papers I'll go through as soon as I get a chance, bit under pressure at the moment.
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Hi Sinann
Thanks for your Reply i wondered if your Thomas who married Elizabeth Martin could have been a brother of my James that married Anne Mc Keone ? I had Some for of the information that you Mentioned but i have never been able to get any further than this james which lists his father as being Thomas Mc Donald Occupation Farmer my james would have been Born around 1834 as he gives his age as 30 when he marries Anne Mc Keone in 1864 and the i know the Following children were born some of which you mention
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William Mc Donnell Born 25 March 1865 Tuitestown Castlepollard
Margaret Mc Donnell Born 20 October 1867 Crats Multyfarnham District
Julia Mc Donnell Born 18 May 1869 Taughmon Parish Multyfarnham District
James Mc Donnell 26 January 1871 Taughmon Parish Multyfarnham District(My Great Grandfather)
Patrick Mc Donnell 7 March 1973 Drumhurlin Castlepollard
Thomas Mc Donnell 12 August 1874 Taughmon Parish Multyfarnham District
John Mc Donnell 28 March 1876 Taughmon Parish Multyfarnham District
Michael Mc Donnell 20 October 1878
Anne Mc Donnell Nee Mc Keone Died in 1886 fom uterine cancer aged 46
James Mc Donnell Died in 1908 From TB aged 77.
I do have other information on this family like some old photos of John (Jack)Who Died in WW1 and his body was never found he enlisted and was sent out to flanders but was not married and as both his parents were dead by this time no more was heard of him and attempts to find out what happened to him the family hit a brick wall as i believe they were looking for Mc Donnell And i think that he enlisted as John or Jack Mc Donald.
my great Grandmother Mary Mc Donald nee Lyons always spelt it that way but my grandfather Spelt it Mc Donnell and we've never Changed it back.
Thanks for any information that you do have i do appreciate it also a distant cousin of mine Billy mc donnell maintains that we are related to the Mc Donnells of Glenidan i have a photo of the 1918 Glenidan Fife And Drum Temperance Band Which features John/Thomas/Patrick.And Nicholas Mc Donnell.
Sorry that this post is more like the War And Peace Book than a message
Regards Patrick
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It's possible Thomas and James were brothers or cousins, I think the chances of finding out are slim.
I wanted to find Drumhurlin first, that way you might have a chance by getting the land registry for the area. As I'm sure you know there a lots of hints online but as you said finding it on a map isn't easy. Using those hints I searched the OSI Mapviewer and found Drumhurlin Bridge.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,650249,762228,7,9
It's a start, need to do some more map study but it's too late just now.
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Had a good look at various maps, now if I can get my thoughts straight.
1. Durmhurlin Bridge is right on the point where 3 townlands meet (Griffith's) Taghmon, Clondalever, and Tuitestown.
2. The Annels of Westmeath mention a hill at Drumhurlin
3. There is a hill marked just above Drumhurlin Bridge on the modern OSI map, which is in the townland of Clondalever.
4. There is a Michael McDonnell living at 3a in Clondalever very close to the hill. (Griffith's )
5. The 1659 census has only 2 people living in the Townland of Drumhurlin so it was very small area.
My thinking is that while today Drumhurlin Bridge is in Taghmon, when there was a townland it stretched up into Clondalever and perhaps even into Tuitestown and local people were still using the name long after the townland had disappeared.
Perhaps Michael McDonnell in Griffith's is living in what was the home place of your Thomas and could be a brother of James.
If this is the case than Clondalever may be a townland worth searching.
This all depends on the hill being the correct one. It would be good to find out if it has a name. I'm going to ask someone who might know.
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Hello Sinann
Thanks so much for your kind look up of my ancestors address.
I have had Ordanance survey maps over the years but to be honest I couldn't make head or tail of them as I think the thing that through me was when you look at the maps there are a couple of areas marked as taughmon.
But anyway I think you may be on to something with regard to the Clondalever area as in the 1901 Census Both James (My Great Great Grandfather) and his son Michael live in the Taughmon Area
which I always thought as according to the census there was a church on the next address which stupidly I thought was A catholic Church
It was only having read your message and reviewing the Ordnance survey map there is a Church Of Ireland Church near both the Drumhurlin Bridge and on the map it looks to be near the base of a hill. Also its very near to tuitestown where my great uncle William That was born in 1865.
And Michael Mc Donnell (My Great Uncle) was living on his own in a house in the 1911 Census his father having died in 1908 and I see no mention of a church on the next address.
I Wondered when you mentioned a Michael Mc Donnell living near the base of a hill in Clondalever according to Griffiths what year that was Printed (As im Not Familiar With Griffiths).
I Do Appreciate Your help.
Thanks So Very Much and I hope I am not imposing upon your time to much.
Regards Patrick
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The print date for Michael is 1854 although the map would be a different date. I need to find the discussion on Griffith's Valualation which is here somewhere to get that date.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
I could be barking up the wrong tree but I think it's worth looking into to. Just need to find the name of that hill or an older map with Drumhurlin on it. I'll send the lady that helped me find Strillstown an email, no harm in asking.
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sinann
Again I appreciate your kind look ups and help.
I find the whole issue of placenames and baronies and Registrars districts so totally confusing when trying to find out where My ancestors came from And maybe move a little further back.
But I know after having spent a Million Euros at the GRO In Dublin(Or At Least It Seems That Much)
For Births,Marriage,Death Certificates Of Silk,Lyons,Kelly,Brien,Slevin,Mc Donnell,McDonald Familys ect ect
A great deal of which did not belong to Me.(and I have in packed in to a file in case they maybe of some interest to others ).
My Relations Came From Westmeath,Galway,Dublin,Offally.
I am completely overwhelmed when it comes to the above Issues with regard to Baronies,Districts,Unions.
So I Am Greatfull with anything you can help me with.
Best Regards Patrick
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Just heard from my wonderful contact in Collinstown.
She spoke to her neighbour, a man of 80 years who has lived in the area all his life. He doesn't know the name of the hill bit thinks it's highly likely to be Durmhurlin.
He also remembers a Oliver McDonnell who liver in Drumhurlin and worked with the Miller McDonnell during the harvest. This Oliver was also related to the Boland family.
He says Drumhurlin isn't a townland, it's a place name.
Think I need to ask how far from the bridge this Oliver lived. See if I can get a X on a map. Fingers still crossed.
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That's Great info sinann
And the funny thing is I have an uncle named Oliver Mc Donnell who would be in his mid seventies now but he told me he remembers being taken out there to an old mill as a youngster by his father but he never said that he worked there. but he couldn't remember where it was in north Westmeath so it shows the name Oliver was in use by the family back then.
I just have to find that couple of missing pieces of this large Jigsaw.
Again thanks for your kind giving of your time.
Ps if you need any look ups in Ballymore let me know
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My friends have been out and about in the car and doing some asking around and it doesn't look like we are going to get any closer.
Best they can do is Durmhurling is a placename in the area of the Bridge, that wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't on the border of 3 townlands.
As there are McDonnells living in Clondalever I think your next step is to get a look at the Land Books for that townland at the Valuation Office http://www.valoff.ie/research.htm
Note on the Land Books I have the name McDonnell starts out as McDaniel in 1854 and doesn't change to McDonnell until 1887.
If we are correct this could at least put to rest once and for all where James lived and possibly if the land was always McDonnells or a McDonnell married into it.
If you go to the trouble of getting Clondalever that why not have a look at Taughmon as well.
Good Luck.
Something you said earlier about a photograph, is it this one
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Hello Sinann
Thanks a million for all your help and yes that photo was the same one I have.
im not familiar with the land Books but I will have a look
Again thanks Patrick
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Hello
I am interested in the McDonnell and Mckeon family that you mention.
I have found a Daniel Mckeon (born late 1840's) he lived in Tuitestown for much of his life but died in Clondalever in 1898. He was killed in an affray. I have found newspaper articles about his killing and a Margaret McDonnell, Daniel's niece, is mentioned as a witness. She lived in Foxburrow. The article also stated that Daniel lived at Drumhurlin Bridge.
I had found the birth of Margaret - daughter of James McDonnell/McDonald and Anne McKeon - and wondered if this was Daniel's niece. The 1901 census shows Margaret as a domestic servant living in Foxburrow (name spelled at McDonnall).
I know that Daniel married Anne McCormick (or McCormack) in 1873 but have only found the parish record of this marriage, not the civil registration which would tell me Daniel's father's name. I did find a possible baptism in 1847 at Collinstown, son of John McKeon and Margaret Devitt....
I notice that the marriage registration of James McDonnell and Anne McKeon shows Anne's father as a John Mckeon... But I was not able to find a baptism for Anne McKeon which would prove the link.
I wonder if you have done any more research into the McKeon family and whether you have found anything to prove that Daniel and Anne were siblings?
If I can prove that they were siblings then I'll know I've got the right set of parents for Daniel which will take me back another generation.