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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: jefna on Friday 18 May 12 12:38 BST (UK)
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Hi I would like to find out if William Douglas born abt 1862 maybe in Kelton is the correct one I have found a birth there for 12 Nov 1862 I also found him in 1881 Scottish Census for Kelton he is a cabinet maker with Parents John Douglas born abt 1833 in Keir Dumfrieshire and Mother Jane Miller born abt 1831 in Dumfries I cant find a Marriage also Grandfather John Douglas born 1799 in Closeburn as stated in census his birthdate is listed as 1799 0n 1851 census also but in 1841 it is listed as 1806 can anyone help me with any details on this Family I have found an entry for a Male Douglas born 21 October 1805 to Stewart Douglas in Closeburn I would appreciate if anyone can help with Births Baptisms Marriages and Deaths for any of these people thank you regards Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer
How have you connected to this William Douglas born c. 1862? You need something to at least let you confirm some of the detail you are seeing.
Monica :)
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Hi Monica I am sorry I am not very good at explaining myself William born 1862? is the Son of John Douglas born 1833 in Keir wife is possiblt Jane Miller in the birth I found for William batch no C11869-1 . John the Father of William is the Brother of my direct ancestor William Douglas born 1834 in Keir Dumfries died in Farlam Cumberland in 1916 there Father is the John Douglas with the questionable birth date in my 1st message either 1799 or 1805 born in Closeburn wife Charlotte Nivison born abt 1811 Dumfrieshire? she is in the 1841 census and I found a Marriage for them in Closeburn on the 1st january 1832 batch no 7213608 and mentioned in the son Williams marriage in 1855 I dont have any info on her Family thank you for replying to my message kind regards Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer
There are numerous trees on A/try, including one called jennifer's tree. Are any of these yours or have you seen them or can access (you need a subsccription)?
Looks like you are on the right track with everything you have so far. I think, if I am reading this right, you need confirmation now of events? The only way really to confirm things properly and let you work back the lines in confidence would be to have a look at some birth, marriage, death certs, available to view online on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (costs are reasonable).
To confirm that John 1833 is the brother to your William, you could check his death cert as Scottish death certs include full details on parents' names, if known to the informant. I was going to suggest a marriage cert, but can't easily see a Scottish marriage entry for John and Jane.
The birth cert of William Douglas b. 12 Nov. 1862 in Kelton is also available to view online. This cert should include the date and place of parents' marriage. I can only see one child for John and Jane (Miller).
The family's 1881 shows as:
John Douglas 48 general lab. b. Keir, Dumfrieshire
Jane Douglas 50 b. Dumfries, Dumfrieshire
William Douglas 18, Cabinet Maker b. Castle Douglas
John Douglas 82 father b. Closeburn, Dumfrieshire
Address: Burnside Buildings, Kelton
John Douglas Snr.'s death cert will also be available to view on SP. This will let you reconfirm his wife's surname and his parents' names (if known by informant) and let you work back generations in confidence.
Monica
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This looks to be William with parents in 1871, surname badly transcribed. Confirms really no other children for them:
John Coughas 35, Sawyer b. Keir
Jane Coughas 40 b. Dumfries
William Coughas 8 b. Kelton
Address: Queen St, Castle Douglas
Just adding link to previous post for background www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,463089.msg3445654.html#msg3445654
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Hi Thank you very much for your reply I fwas worried I had the wrong person as I found a 1911 Liverpool census with a William James Born in 1863 in Castle Douglas occupation Cabinet Maker and that is the same job William was doing in the 1881 census so it got me worried I had the wrong one anyway he must be the same person as I have been searching for days for another one and cant find anyone well you are amazing I am so thrilled you are so quik wow im gobsmacked thsnks again I did try and find some Deaths last year on Scotlands People but couldnt find any I will give it another try look in Kelton right okay I will let you help someone else now I will let you know how I get on at Scoltlands People many warm regards Jennifer oh and yes it is my tree on ancestry my son 's really I am just an editor
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Hello again I have found the right Family for William Douglas he is the one who moved to Liverpool I found his parents death entries on Sccoltlands people today John died on 1 Feb 1892 in Sowerby Place Castle Douglas and Jane nee Miller died 20 Sep 1884 146 King Street Castle Douglas and son William was the witness and his address in Liverpool is there also so thanks again, no luck with Father John Douglas who is my direct ancestor I checked the other Deaths in Kelton no luck there where 2 but not him can you suggest anything where to luck I also looked for his birth and marriage I think he was hatched somewhere lol many thanks for getting me in the right track many regards Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer
The death cert you have for William's brother John in 1892, did this show the right parents for your William - John Douglas and Charlotte Nivison? Did father John Douglas show as deceased on son John's death cert?
Monica
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Just seen on your tree that you have added image for John's 1892 death cert which is helpful :)
So, John's parents do shows as John Douglas, shepherd and Charlotte Nivison, both deceased.
So window of time for John Snr's death would be 1881-1892 and son John's death.
Monica
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...and son William was the witness and his address in Liverpool...
Confused about that bit. The witness to John Jnr.'s death in 1892 is his brother William (your direct line?) with a Carlisle address.
Monica
Added: Ahh, it was mother Jane's death registration in 1884 where son William registered her death. Useful to have both Williams, with addresses (that's down to the clever registrar for the area!) anotating the addresses outside of the area for witnesses I would think.
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Jennifer, not seeing anything like you on SP that gives any confidence it will be the right entry for John Snr. :-\
Wondered whether he could have moved down to England after the death of Jane Miller (still haven't found John Jnr. in 1891) to be nearer William's family?
There is this death entry for example, in the same RD where you William was in those later censuses:
John Douglas, 85, 1st Qrt 1886 in Brampton, Cumberland, Vol. 10b pg. 286
Monica
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hI Monica I think you are right aboyr John Douglas I can send for his Death cert and it should hold some clues again mant thanks I was trying to make out the Carlisle address for William not much luck it looks like bla blah Wigton Carlisle so yo uhave saved the day I wonder why there isnt any records for Charlotte Nivison or the Kings or Mcknights ah well maybe they are still being transcribed thanks again mant regards Jennifer
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The death cert for John Jnr, and witness brother William's address is hard to read. For any certificate where you have a problem with the quality of the image and/or legibility, you can ask SP to rescan the relevant section. They are very good at responding to this type of query and you will normally hear back within a couple of days with an enhanced image for the problem area of the cert. See this note on SP /www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=1210
I hope you do get somewhere finding John Douglas Snr.'s death cert. The pity will be, if he did die in England, will be the lack of additional info on the English v. Scottish death certs. If he did die in England, without his parents' details, harder to trace back that Douglas line...
Monica
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Hello Monica Thnk you for your help I really appreciate it I am hoping another relative with more info will one day do a Family Tree so we can share information, I will request another scan and again many thanks Jennifer
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Hi Monica I think I have found something in the 1851 census for John Douglas senior he is listed as having his Daughter Janet age 11 and an Agnes Laurie born 1820 in Hollywood Dumfries as a servant maybe she is his Neice born to his Sister Janet I forgot what else I was going to write cos if I leave this page I loose all the message and have to start again anyway it seems that Stewart Douglas maybe the Father afterall it was strange there werent any little Stewarts in John 's Family I thought, anyway what do you think I did get the info on Stewart from another website I was directed to have forgotten it now though bye regards Jennifer
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william douglas 1862 is my g grandfather, he married agnes grierson on 22nd july 1884 in the isle of man and then emigrated to new zealand about 1910. he died 1928 her in 1929. they are buried at waipipi cemetery near waiuku, south auckland, coincidently we are visiting there next weekend.
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Hi again from New Zealand. My Grandfather was John Douglas b.1st October 1885 in Lezayre IOM also a son of William and Agnes. He married Emily Florence Caine in the IOM in 1905 and died in Petone near Wellington. Ask your other contact in NZ to text me as we must be 2nd cousins (*) from UK
Thanks for all your help & hope I can extend your tree.
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data. See www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Hi I sent an invite to my tree via ancestry to Wendy just incase she isnt working on her tree at present also copied and pasted andsent your message with it also via messages on ancestry so hopefully she will get one or the other many regards Jennifer
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Ho Monica I received the Death Certificate for John Douglas this week he did die in Farlam so I am back to square one also Stewart Douglas isnt the Father of my John I found another Son John anfdgot his birth and other death details with some help from a Lady on ancestry who is working on Nivisons and Douglas's also have been busy on scotlands people ordering Birth wills and Death notices so I have ran out of ideas for now anyway thanks very much for the Death notice for Wigton bye Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer,
According to my records William & Agnes Douglas had 4 children- John 1886- William 1887 Margaret 1890 & Robert 1893 all came to New Zealand early 1900's. William sr. has been hard to keep up with on census date 3rd April 1881 he was able bodied seaman onboard "Jane & Ellen" Henry Dandy was head of household,Captain I presume. 1891 he was in Lezayre IOM with Agnes & 3 children. 1901 Agnes & 4 children in Lezayre [strangely in the Wales census], Then by the next census they were all here in NZ . Am I right in thinking John Douglas 1833 parents were John Douglas snr abt 1799 & Charlotte NIVISON 1811 and mar. 1st Jan 1832 ? I tried to send my mobile phone number last time so we could exchange text's but this system dosn't allow it.
Regards
Fred
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Hi Fred I had the same as you for ages marrying up the wrong people I also added the William and Family in the Isle of Man to my tree that is hoe I met Wendy sho had just start4d since then after loking further I found I was wrong the John Douglas who moved tp Kirkcudbrightshire isnt the Father of William that went to the Isle of Man the William that he had woth his wife Jane Miller fromDumfries born 1833 died 20 Sep 1884 my William Douglas was present at her Death and he gives his address as 146 Mulberry Street Mulberry Square Liverpool I got her Death entry from Scotlands People hi is in the 1818 censu with parents and Grandfather aged 19 occupation cabinet maker in 1884 witnesses mothers Death in 1887 marriaes Mary A
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Hi Fred no the John Douglas Son Of John and Charlotte isnt the Father of William that went to Isle of Man then New Zealand I can send an invite to my tree as I did the same had him in my tree for ages I was looking for Death entries and got my William s parents death entries mother Jane Millers born 1833 in Dumfries death 20 sep 1884 son William was the witness to her death his address is in Liverpool he was a cabinet maker and the following census's show him in Liverpool married and still a cabinet maker.
he is in the 1881 scotland census living at home with parents and Grandfather aged 19 occupation cabinet maker father John Douglas born 1833 in Keir death 1892 Castle Douglas my direct ancestor William was witness to his Death he took Father John home to Farlam Cumberland with him where he died 28 Jan 1886 in Farlam Cumberland son William witness
in the 1881 scottish sensus for Kelton Kirkcudbrightshire roll cssct1881-330 ed 2 h.s.17 line 18 he is at home wih his parents and Grandfather age 19 occupation cabinet maker
send me an email and I can invite you to my tree so you can see the death certs okay many regards Jennifer
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To monica I am sorry I meant Brampton inmy last reply to you ,again many thanks regards Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer
Great that you confirmed the right death for John Snr...pity it was in England with the lack of parents' info for him.
Apart from Stewart Douglas and wife Jean Dickson having children in Closeburn in the early 1800s, there looks to also have been a John Douglas and Janet McMurdo. Some births for them show as:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1G-K7S
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYMS-Z41
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYMJ-DZH
Lots of different place names for births...and no John showing so really just a possibility at this stage.
Monica
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Hi Monica wow thanks very much I will have a look and see if it leads anywhere the Jannet suggests it could be right I will give it a go many thanks Jennifer
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Hi Monica I have just found this on scotlands people im excited
3 14/08/1805 DOUGLAS JOHN JOHN DOUGLAS/JANET MCMURDO FR92 M GLENCAIRN /DUMFRIES 826/00 0010 0088
do you think this could be the one thanks heaps bye Jennifer
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Hi Monica I found the John in the last message isnt him so here are the other two born in dumfries around the same time what do you think are the places they are born anywhere near closeburn
1 28/09/1798 DOUGLAS JOHN JAMES DOUGLAS/MARY KER FR83 M MOUSWALD /DUMFRIES 844/00 0010 0073
2 29/09/1800 DOUGLAS JOHN JOHN DOUGLAS/JANNET THOMSON FR69 M KIRKMAHOE /DUMFRIES 835/00 0010 0065
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That is a pity isn't it (even though birth year out a little bit from c. 1800 to 1805.
How did you discount this John, son of John and Janet (McMurdo)?
Lost again aren't we on John Snr. :-\
Added: This looks to be the family www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/johndouglas18.htm and can see a John and wife Jane Carruthers I think in the censuses. Pity!
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Hi Monica this is a wild shot I know but I looked up Mouswald on genuki and it says whatever and then the hamlets could this have been mispelt do you think and rewritten as closeburn here it is
"CLEUGHBRAE, a hamlet in the parish of Mouswald, in the county of Dumfries, Scotland."
I am sorry to send so much stuff clutching at straws lol thanks to you bye Jennifer
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Always hard to say isn't it without actually following the trail. I do think though that mention of Closeburn for your John Snr. does indicate Closeburn. Apart from a/try's transcription, in 1851 he also shows as born in Closeburn on these transcript www.dgcommunity.net/historicalindexes/census.aspx - this one is done by volunteers with in most cases local knowledge so I would say in the main really accurate (unlike a/try's transcriptions sometimes ::)).
From another source, a possible 1851 for the John from Mouswald www.maxwellancestry.com/census/51transcript.aspx?houseid=84402008
Too many John Douglasses wondering around at the same time/areas!
Monica
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Hi Jennifer,
I don't know how to send you an e mail with this but here is mine*
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Hi Monica after printing out the birth entry for John Douglas born 1805 I started as usual at a gallop to enter him as my John without waiting for your answer as I was doing it I decided to check my tree as it is a while since I went through the Douglas's he is allready there I will explain as best I can I have the
John Douglas born in glencairn married to Jane Carruthers born 1807 lochmarben
Susan Douglas who I have as the glencairn John's Daughter born 1841 in Irongrey
she married Thomas King born 1837 in torthorwald
he is the brother to Jannet King born 1828 in torthorwald died 1888 Farlam she is my direct ancestor she Married
William Douglas born 1834 in Keirs died 1916 in Farlam
these are the childrnI have for John Douglas glencairn
Jennifer's Family Tree and Branches
John Douglas Birth 5 Aug 1805, chr. 14 Aug 1805, in Glencairn, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
1851: aged 46, living in Irongray, Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland
1861: aged 56, living in Irongray, Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland
1871: aged 66, living in Irongray, Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland
1881: aged 76, living in Troqueer, Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland
Parents John Douglas 1772 – ? and Janet McMurdo 1776 – ?
Spouse & Children
Jane Carruthers 1807 –
Jane Douglas 1828 –
Janet Douglas 1832 –
Elizabeth Douglas 1833 –
John Douglass 1833 –
Robert Douglas 1836 –
William Douglass 1838 –
Susan Douglas 1841 –
Thomas Douglass 1842 –
Mary Douglas 1843 –
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Hi Monica
also thanks for the links especially the Douglas Family tree the 1851 census link I put in his details and the search said no results
I am not very tech minded that is why I copy and paste everything I hope it is legal
I have looked at the maxwell site and bought a copy ogf there 1726/1724 closeburn parish rejister and a buuleugh street u.p.baptisms 1846-1856 I will have a look at the 1851 census they have
of course I entered all the Nivisons I could find to my tree and some Douglas's in hopes they will tie in some day
I am sorry if this is confusing many thanks again for taking time for me bye Jennifer
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Hi Monica I looked in the Deaths on Scotlands people in Kier and found a death for a John Douglas died 27 January 1837 in what looks like Thornhill no age could this be the Father of my elusive John Douglas also looking back at the 1841 census for John and Charlotte in rhoniston keir they have an older Lady staying with them after finding out it was lawfull for people to set up house together as man and wife then do you think it could be his Mother her name is Mary Richardson she was born in 1771 in Dumfrieshire is it plausible
there is also a 15 year old girl in the census called Mary Kirkpatrick
John Douglas 35
Charlotte Douglas 30
John Douglas 8
William Douglas 5
Jannet Douglas 1
Mary Richardson 70
Mary Kirkpatrick 15
Address: Roniston, Keir, Dumfriesshire
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To be honest, Jennifer, at this stage anything is possible! The problem will be getting the confirmation.
There are a real lack of records for the Douglas and Nivison families aren't there :-\ Makes it hard to confirm with certainty the births/christenings and also parents names for either John Snr or Charlotte at this stage.
Monica
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Hi Monica I think I will give it a break and come back to it I cant figure out why there are so few record can you maybe explain it many thanks for your help regards Jennifer
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A break can help as you can then come back later re-energised!
From what I can see here - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyDumfries.htm#PageTitle - Old Parish Register records for Closeburn seem to start around 1765/6.
It may be that your Douglas and Nivision families did not belong to the established Church of Scotland, ie presbyterian. OPRs are in the main for CofS records.
Monica
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Hi Monica thanks I have looked in there before but will try again stuff is being added the whole time I was thinking as some of the other Douglas's in my tree where baptised in Buccleuch Street Dumfries would they have travelled there to batptize the kids do you think
Anyway I got stuck into William Douglas who got me introduced to filgill and I worked on it all night it is a small world it turne out his Dad is John Carruthers Douglas and he is Susan Douglas's brother who is married to Thomas King brother of Jannet King my direct line pheww I have a bit more to go before I run out of possibles to add and Wendy Douglas has had a setback a Family bereavement but finally got info for Fred to her so your site brings Families together isnt that amazing many thanks to you and all the hard work you do to help people you are a treasure many thanks and regards Jennifer
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Hi Monia I looked at the page you sent me and printedout possible Douglas Relatives aded them to my tree for future reference I also looked at a page on ancestry.com and it gave quite a bit of info on the noncomformist Church and a section on Closeburn Parish #816 so I have been looking at that it is above my head a bit but will have to read over and over so I can dijest spome of it thanks again many regards Jennifer