RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Joolz Brutnell on Saturday 19 May 12 13:20 BST (UK)
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I wanted to know whether a family can just ' use ' a crest on coaches and engravings on spoons or do they need to prove their connection with a certain Winn family / person ... the reason I ask is that I have Winn family from North Yorkshire and my family has in its possession two silver spoons dated about 1781 by Hester Bateman with the Winn insignia [ an eagle or phoenix with no crown ] I know the Winns of Nostell Priory used this as their crest but I can find no connection to this family ... my Winns originated from Thornton Steward / Bedale area of Yorkshire and I have gone back as far as 1560s.
Hope someone can help explain what is the deal with crests ?
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Maybe there's still a connection to be made. Maybe they worked there? Maybe someone bought them thinking there may be a connection. I would have thought if people the crest etc had been allotted found out and thhere was no connection and someone tried to use it, there would be repercussions due to status placed on things like that.
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Coats of arms and crests are a form of property and may rightfully be used only by the male-line descendants of the individual to whom they were first granted or confirmed. See http://www.sog.org.uk/leaflets/arms.shtml
Stan
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That is VERY interesting . The spoons were definately MADE for the family and the coach ' apparently ' had the same crest as The Nostell Priory Winns ! Now that has me thinking I should be looking to connect with Nostell Priory Winns before they came to Nostell Priory .
Many thanks for your info , you have been very helpful :)
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Just read this : '' Unfortunately, over the centuries, many families have simply assumed arms and crests belonging to other families of the same name, usually without authority and without demonstrating any relationship between the families. It follows that mere usage of a coat of arms, even over a long period, does not necessarily indicate a descent from the family for whom it was first recorded. Indeed, more often than not, there is no such connection. Even when a tax was levied on the use of armorial bearings (1798-1944), those paying the tax did not need to have an established right to arms. .... it seems my Winns ' could ' have been using it without authority :o
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Or maybe there is a link ... perhaps I should have a further look ;D
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The Winn crest was a demi eagle. For some branches of the familly this was ducally gorged. That is with a ducal crown around its neck. This crest of course was part of the full coat of arms, sitting on the helmet.
It was fairly usual to use the crest on small items of silver like cutlery. However on coaches the full coat of arms was much more usual.
While the full coat of arms including the crest were inherited, the crest often formed part of arms granted to other branches of the family.
You are presumably dating the spoons from a hallmark but you should consider that they might have been engraved at a later date. During the 19th century, particularly in the latter half. a lot of people adopted arms to which they were not entitled. In the same way as today goods bearing arms associated with a surname can be purchased from commercial firms, the Victorians had old cutlery etc engraved with crests and coats of arms associated with their surname.
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The spoons I think were engraved by Hester Bateman . She was a well known Silversmith who would engrave crests so I think I am going with the thought that the engraving did not occur during the victorian period .
Im pretty sure they are authentic and not tampered with later . The crest on the spoons looks very similar to Hester Batemans work.
I have just spoken to my mother who has said for years that she ' knows ' we are connected to Nostell Priory Winns ... thats great mum but just how ? ::)
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Does tha hallmark on the spoons show that they were made by Hester Bateman or one of her sons?
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It has HB for Hester Bateman .
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Hi Joolz,
A quick look at the history of the Winns of Nostel shows that they descend from “George Wynne of Gwydir (who) was appointed Draper to Elizabeth I”. In turn the Wynns of Gwydir claim descent from the royal house of Gwynedd, one of whose emblems was, supposedly, an eagle “displayed”.
Whilst the College of Heralds had been established in 1484 it had no real powers over existing heraldic symbols until authorised to undertake visitations in 1530. Up until then heraldry in England was unregulated, and individuals were free to adopt whatever designs they chose provided that they met the generally accepted conventions on colour and design and were not a direct copy of somebody else's.
To confuse the issue further, heraldry in Wales, which was not subject to English law at this time, had developed some idiosyncracies of its own. In particular, because of the tradition and strength of genealogical recording, where families claimed descent from an illustrious ancestor, that ancestor was ascribed symbolic arms. Thus Owain Gwynedd (d 1170) was alloted the eagle, amongst other insignia, although there is no evidence that he actually bore this device. Some families descended from him then used the eagles to signify their connection ( For example “Vert,three eagles displayed in fesse Or” in the arms of the Aberffraw branch)
It is possible, therefore. that your Winns,although not closely related to the Nostel Winns, were also of the house of Gwynedd and chose to use the eagle as an emblem accordingly. Certainly the surname suggests a Welsh origin and you may want to try that line of enquiry further.
Maec
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Just a little addition to the discussion on North Yorkshire Winns. I have some in my tree too from Faceby which is about 17 miles from Thornton Steward. I have been trying to make a connection with the Thornton Steward Winns. No success so far with that, but in the process I discovered that the well know Yorkshire writer Winifred Holtby's mother was born Alice Winn. Her family came from Thornton Steward. If your Winns came from there too them you are almost certainly related to Winifred. What fun!