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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Casabeag on Saturday 19 May 12 13:46 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I need help on my family tree, I have details on my Great Grandfather Thomas Kelly that he was in India (maybe born there in Calcutta so family say) he married a Mary a Carroll from Dublin and later lived in Dublin and had 5 children 3 sons and 2 girls my grandmother Josephine is the youngest of the girls and was born 12/03/1916 in 50 Rutland Square, Dublin. She had two older brothers Thomas and George and one older Sister Philomena and a younger brother Eoin (Owen) not sure of the spelling.
I am thinking that Thomas and Mary where married anywhere from 1910-1912, just guessing. I can't find them anywhere in the 1901, 1911 Irish census. I got my grandmothers birth cert and her fathers (Thomas Kelly) occupation is listed as Soldier. My aunt said she remembers he used to collect his pension from the British Embassy here in Dublin and she remembers playing with his medals when she was younger.
I'm stuck now on this branch of the tree and I'm not sure where to go any suggestions? Unfortunately I don't have Thomas Kelly or Mary Carroll BOD, Death or Marriage.
Jess ???
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Possible marriage in Dublin North in Jan-Mar 1905 (vol 2 page 564). That page of the register has both a Thomas Kelly and a Mary Anne Carroll, along with 6 other names.
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That's great - thanks
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I found Thomas's army file ! Wife Mary, 50 Rutland Square !
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If you are looking for the file it's in the "British Army WWI Pension Records", indexed as Thomas Kelly born "Marals" "East Indies".
In fact he was born in a suburb of Bombay. He first signed up for the Leinster Regiment on 6 August 1891 aged 18 years and 1 month. He said he had spent 6 years at the Royal Hibernian Military School.
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His father was Michael Kelly, 45 Beresford Street Dublin
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Blimey I'm so excited thank you so much for finding that information for me I really appreciate it ;D
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The address 46 Beresford Street also appears in the army papers
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His father was Michael Kelly, 45 Beresford Street Dublin
Hi,
Just wondering how you know that this is his father?
Thanks,
Jess
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It's at the bottom of his military history sheet
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If he was born in India does that mean his father was also in the army do you think? I am not a member of ancestry is there any other way I can obtain the records or would you advise me to join ancestry.
Thanks again,
Jess
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Your local library might have a subscription to Ancestry
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Yes I would say definitely that his father was in the army - particularly as Thomas attended the Royal Hibernian Military School for 6 years (1883-1889).
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At age 18, Thomas had tattoos on the back of each wrist: A 30 on the left and T. K. on the right. Any idea of their significance?
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At age 18, Thomas had tattoos on the back of each wrist: A 30 on the left and T. K. on the right. Any idea of their significance?
T.K. = Thomas Kelly?
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At age 18, Thomas had tattoos on the back of each wrist: A 30 on the left and T. K. on the right. Any idea of their significance?
No not off hand I'll have to ask the aunties to see if they remember anything?
Is there anything on there about his fathers position in the Army?
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At age 18, Thomas had tattoos on the back of each wrist: A 30 on the left and T. K. on the right. Any idea of their significance?
T.K. = Thomas Kelly?
Could very well be and I wonder is A 30 something to do with the regiment or his army days....
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I wondered if it was shorthand for his birthday.
If so it might rule out this chap https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG3P-QL9
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Yeah I think we can rule him out - If he signed up for the army in 1891 aged 18 he was born c1873, A 30 could be a birth date alright it makes sense.
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T.K. = Thomas Kelly?
Thanks Aghadowey - sometimes one doesn't see the blindingly obvious !
The attendance at Royal Hibernian is interesting. It was a school for military orphans yet we know his father was still alive in 1891. Presumably his mother had died by 1883.
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The army papers are a bit confusing.
Having served in Malta, Bermuda, Canada, and South Africa (1900-02), he was discharged from the army in 1903 having served his 12 years.
He then seems to have joined up again at Clonmel in June 1904 as an artillery driver, claiming to be just 24 years and 2 months old. After completing his initial 3 years of service he was transferred to the army reserve in June 1907.
He was mobilised on the outbreak of hostilities in 1914. He served in the Royal Garrison Artillery and then the Labour Corps
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Having been discharged from the Labour Corps (571642) in 1919 (address 50 Rutland Square ) he joined the Royal Engineers on 30 May that year, claiming to be aged 40 years and 0 months. After serving overseas he was finally discharged in April 1920. Wife Mary Anne, 50 Rutland Square.
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The records of the Royal Hibernian Military School are at Kew:
http://www.achart.ca/articles/hibernian/sources.htm
WO 143/78 and 79 were deposited at Kew in 2003:
WO 143/78 - 1847–1877 Nominal Roll of boys joining the Royal Hibernian Military School. This is an alphabetical ledger of 2649 admissions. It contains comprehensive data, which include these categories of information: the company to which the boy was assigned; his date of admission; date of birth; body mass data including his height, chest measurement and weight in pounds; his religion; rank held; trade taught, good conduct stripes earned at age 14; his petition number; entry class; father's regiment; his disposition (army volunteer, trade apprentice or 'withdrawn by guardian' etc.) The register includes other useful information such as transfer to the RMA (rare), deaths and absconded or deserted.
WO 143/79 - 1878–1907 Nominal Roll of boys joining the Royal Hibernian Military School. This ledger is a continuation of the preceding ledger, WO 143/78, and records for 3,907 entries the same wealth and range of data described for that ledger. Using a pupil's admission number entered in the WO 143/27, the entry can be cross-referenced to the same boy's name and petition number recorded in the fuller ledgers, WO143/78 and 79
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That's great information Shaun thank you so much, I really thought I'd never get past that section of my tree I'm delighted with the information you've provided thanks for taking the time to search for me I really appreciate it.
Jess
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They should be on the 1911 census of Ireland - but I can't find them !
Nor are there any Kellys at 45 Beresford Street in 1901
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Still finding things. In some of the army pension papers it's recorded that he said when re-enlisting that he had only served in the Royal Garrison Artillery Dublin Militia.
In the RGA Dublin papers from April 1904 (he says he was born in St Thomas's Dublin but the signature appears to be his) in which he claims to be just 24 years old. The address he gives is 36 Summerhill.
Have also just found more papers which again mention the wrist tattoos (is A30 something to do with his company at the military school I wonder) and give an address of 24 Summerhill in July 1903
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I couldn't find them on the census either but in 1911 I did find a Thomas & Mary in Rutland St Thomas is the correct age but place of birth is wrong....
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Rutland_Street__Upper/30713/
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I wouldn't rule out that 1875 baptism in Morar, Bombay at this stage. He may have lied to the army about his age in 1891, as he did later in life.
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Well, well I never knew this stuff was online:
He was born 24 March 1875
Father's regiment was 54th
Expelled from the school on 8 March 1889.
http://www.rma-searcher.co.uk/Dublin/Tester/RMA_RHMS/RHMSPDF/Name%20index/KANE.pdf
So this is the correct baptism - you might be able to get more information on it from the British Library's India Office section
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG3P-QL9
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N.481 Private Michael Kelly, 54th Foot, discharged at Meerut 1880, aged 40. Served more than 16 years in the East Indies.
Born St Michael, Dublin circa April 1840
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It might be an idea to check out the other Kellys at the school whose father was in 54th regiment - there may be siblings
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Wow Shaun,
Great stuff I can't believe a couple of days ago I knew nothing about my great grandfather and now look how much information I have on him all thanks to you.
I'm thrilled ;D
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Well, well I never knew this stuff was online:
He was born 24 March 1875
Father's regiment was 54th
Expelled from the school on 8 March 1889.
http://www.rma-searcher.co.uk/Dublin/Tester/RMA_RHMS/RHMSPDF/Name%20index/KANE.pdf
So this is the correct baptism - you might be able to get more information on it from the British Library's India Office section
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG3P-QL9
Hi Shaun,
So are we sure that this is him and he just lied about his age throughout the other records?
Jess
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So are we sure that this is him and he just lied about his age throughout the other records?
Yes - no doubt about it.
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Thomas Kellys's birth was registered with the army so you should be able to order a birth certificate. Here are the details from the army births and baptisms index:
Place: Gwalior
1875
54th
Volume 1098
Page 50
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Thanks Shaun,
Where do I order it from do you know? I googled it but there are a few options coming up, also do I write to Kews for the military records?
Thanks,
Jess
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You can order the birth certificate online https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Choose "birth certificates (overseas)". The reference I gave you was from the Regimental Births Index. You can view that index free of charge at http://www.familyrelatives.com/ though you may need to register.
Yes the army "pension" files are held at Kew. A well known subscription service has published the WW1 pension records online, and another well known subscription service has published earlier army discharge records online.
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Thomas Kellys's birth was registered with the army so you should be able to order a birth certificate. Here are the details from the army births and baptisms index:
Place: Gwalior
1875
54th
Volume 1098
Page 50
Hi Shaun,
Just trying to order his birth cert here is this the GRO Reference that I use?
Thanks,
Jess
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Hi,
Just wondering if you know the Solider number for Thomas Kelly as I can't seem to find his military records on FindMyPast. I have found Michael's and found the birth of Thomas but have not yet come across the information you provided on Thomas. Rather than waste anymore credits on FindMyPast I thought I would ask if you came across it.
Thanks in advance,
Jess
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If you are looking for Thomas's military records you need to look on Ancestry.
If you are looking for the file it's in the "British Army WWI Pension Records", indexed as Thomas Kelly born "Marals" "East Indies".
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Hi Shaun,
I seen that post but I don't seem to have that option on FindMyPast.
Thanks anyway,
Jess
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Hello, did your grandfather ever use the name Thomas Kelly Parsons. The reason I'm asking my great grandmother married a man with this name about 1891 in Calcutta. They had two sons and then he disappeared in the early 1900's. Clutching at straws really, but can't find him anywhere. The users on this forum seem to know how to get information. Kind regards welshbear
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Hi,
I don't think this is the same person as my g.grandfather had just joined the Leinster Regiment in 1891. What was your grandmothers name, that might help people on here find him.
Jess
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Hi,
I have found out that Thomas Kelly who married Mary Anne Carroll had 4 children. Josephine (1916), Philomena (1913) and two boys Owen and George I don't know years of birth and I can't find anything on them.
Family stories say:- Owen was in the army and died at 16 or 18 yrs when his room mate was cleaning his gun he was shot (full military funeral) - can't find birth or death on him?
George:- Was in Mountjoy and shared a cell with Kevin Barry but was released due to illness (maybe TB and later died) - can't find any information on him either.
Any help appreciated.
Thanks,
Jess
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Kevin Barry was executed in Mountjoy in 1920. The prison register is searchable on FindMyPast Ireland - I found Kevin Barry but but I couldn't find a George Kelly there that year. Assuming George was born after the marriage, he could only have been 14 or 15 at that time at most.
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In his army reserve papers Thomas mentions a sister Mary at 36 Summer Hill.
There was a Mary Kelly born to Michael and Mary (54th Regiment) on 29 May 1872. baptised at Jullundur India on 23 June 1872
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Another possible sibling born in India: Michael Kelly baptised at St Patrick's Church Fort William on 16 June 1878. Born 28 May 1878, Father Michael Kelly, 54th regiment.
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Thanks Shaun,
Is there anyway I can find out the Mother's maiden name (Michael's wife) also I can find any death records, since Thomas was in the Hibernian military school it is presumed his mother died do the army keep records of that? I wonder if any military photos exist - does your source have anything there?
Thanks for you help
Jess
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The 54th went to India at the end of 1871. Before that they were at the Curragh in Co Kildare. Daughter Mary was born in May 1872 so an educated guess would suggest a marriage in Kildare in 1871, But it's just a guess and there are a lot of Michael Kelly marriages in Kildare around that time.
There is no mother's maiden name on the India baptism records which can be viewed on FindMyPast.
There are no photos on the army files. There is no next of kin detail in Michael Kelly's army file which you can view on FindMyPast: Michael Kelly born 1840 at St Michael (Dublin) number 481 "Dorsetshire Regiment - 39th & 54th Foot"
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Some progress on the Kelly's- Update on Owen Kelly
Thomas Kelly & Mary anne Carroll had 5 children in Total
1. William Owen Kelly abt. 1905 - d. 07/03/1923
2. George Kelly abt. 1909
3. Phyllis Kelly abt. 1914
4. Josephine Kelly 12/03/1916 - d. 21/12/1992
5. James Kelly abt. 1921
The Owen that I thought was the youngest is infact the eldest boy William Owen Kelly and he died on duty when killed by his friend in Parkgate St Military No. 40130, 57th Batt. Collins Bke
The issue I have now is that I thought/presumed that Mary Anne Carroll was born in 1881 however in William's Army Papers she has her dob as 02/05/1882. Her father is listed as Owen Carroll on her marriage cert and the Mary anne Carroll I had from 1881 also had a father Owen Carroll and mother Eliza Weir. I can't find birth of Mary anne for 02/05/1882 with a father Owen Carroll.
It is the first we've heard of James Kelly? If Mary anne was not born in 1881 and Eliza Weir is not Mary's mother then I also can't locate them in the census. Do I assume that the dob is incorrect in the Army papers?
Thanks,
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Hi,
I have found out that Thomas Kelly who married Mary Anne Carroll had 4 children. Josephine (1916), Philomena (1913) and two boys Owen and George I don't know years of birth and I can't find anything on them.
Family stories say:- Owen was in the army and died at 16 or 18 yrs when his room mate was cleaning his gun he was shot (full military funeral) - can't find birth or death on him?
George:- Was in Mountjoy and shared a cell with Kevin Barry but was released due to illness (maybe TB and later died) - can't find any information on him either.
Any help appreciated.
Thanks,
Jess
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Update on Thomas Kelly - I have ordered a copy of his marriage parish record and his parents are listed as Michael Kelly & Mother Mary Carroll both deceased on 22 Jan 1905 which was his wedding day.
Would anybody have access to military records for Michael Kelly No.481 or find a marriage record for Michael and Mary Carroll - I presume she must have died pre 1883 as that is when Thomas was in the RHMS in Dublin??