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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: hanleyp on Sunday 27 May 12 10:37 BST (UK)
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For over 6 months I have been trying to find birth place of my direct ancestor Thomas Hanley ( agricultural labourer) who married Emma/Emmet Johnson in Sutton Upon Derwent in East Riding of Yorkshire in 1728.
Research by Borthwick Institute of York found no trace of either Thomas or Emma being born in the parish . I later came across a cause paper in which Thomas as a witness confirmed in Dec 1729 that he was 25 and had been in the parish approx 4 years .
From a search point --this puts Thomas year of birth --as 1704/5/6 .
Based on the fact that he was an agricultural labourer --and that most agricultural labourers moved under 10 miles -my initial approach was to search parishes outwards from the parish of Sutton upon Derwent --plus those nearby parishes in ER where a Hanley name popped up in the IGI websites .
This first search --through Borthwick Institute - found no birth of Thomas ( between 1700 and 1709.) in the 9 immediate adjacent parishes plus some four other parishes in nearby ER parishes I had nominated due to Hanley names pre 1710
After that failure my next approach has to be study the hanley name pre 1700 in the 3 Yorkshire Ridings to try and pick most likely parishes --and also elimate those parishes where it appears the Family search site covers the time . I have colour coded the parish maps of ther 3 Yorkshire ridings to show both where hanleys existed and where records appear covered on web ( GENUKI ,IGI/Family Search )
This has highlighted to me that many parish records pre 1710 are still not on the web--nor ancestry UK nor Genes Reunited -making the task of tracking down thomas quite difficult . quite dissapointing in fact --the parish records on genes/ancestry seem no more that on family search .
My coloured maps reveal that the hanley surname to be most common pre 1710 in West Yorkshire ( South Kirkby, Leeds, Doncaster, Wakefield,Sheffield and Garsdale ). By contrast the name in North and East riding is relatively rare .
So my thinking is that Thomas Hanley is most likely to have moved to Sutton upon Derwent form the south/ West Yorkshire --and even then from WR parish's near to Sutton upon Derwent than those than further away ( ie sheffield/garsdale )
In order to narrow the search to a manageable size I have attempted rule out for now parishes that appear to have records on family search/IGI for the period 1702-1710 --as detailed on GenUKI .
Following I have asked Borthwick to search a list of WR parishes records they hold which is close to the ER --which seem not to be on any private/free websites--plus a few more in ER .
The help/advice I am looking for is on what next to do should Borthwick fail to find thomas .
I could contact Doncaster archives. Note I am told that most of the Leeds and Wakefield archives are now on ancesty.uk --which I am a member of .
Another possibility is to contact east yorkshire county records --as I am aware quite a number of parishes still have not records on free web sites --for example Great Driffield.
I wondered how Thomas came to wed Emma --and whether her birthplace could be helpful. There is one Emma Johnson born in Nunkeeling in ER in 1701--but no sign of Thomas there on in the adjacent parishes which genUKI suggest are on IGI/Family search .
The other thought is wether Thomas surname was other than Hanley --a few sites suggest the Hanley name could have beeen derived from Ainley --a name which seems to have come fron the halifax parish. Again a WR location .
Any ideas/suggestings on how best to proceed from here .
Philip Hanley.
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Hi
It is difficult to decide whether this should be an East or West Yorkshire request but as most people look at both boards we will leave it here for now as you think the family originated in the West. I hope you get some advice. As you have found not all parishes are online and trawling through hundreds is often the only way. I assume you know that you can get most parish registers on film to search at your nearest LDS family history centre. They cover many more than are on the IGI. Have you joined the local history societies? They can be very helpful.
Regards
Andrea
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thanks for prompt reply .
never really understood diffrence between IGI site and LDS sites--thought both the same origin.
In any case I have been using the genUKI site for yorkshire ( entering parish name followed by GENUKI) . That takes me to page which states parish details --among which is location and extent of parish records --including what IGI covers .
I have then been searching name on family search site ( LDS) between 1700 and 1710 entering that parish. That is my final check .
So I would say I am using LDS site .
Regards
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Have you tried the Hearth tax? Here is a link for West Yorks http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,524947.0.html
You could ask on the East Riding forum to see if anybody could do you a surname search for that area.
You are doing what I have had to do for some of my ancestors when I got back to the point where there seemed to be no earlier parish entries. The gaps in the IGI are annoying, though I think that sometimes they are there because there already exists a transcript.
On the subject of Ag labs moving about I have read that it was common practice to hire labourers from the next parish because when they were no longer required they would have to return to their own parish for poor relief and I have found that labourers would often live close to parish boundaries for this reason.
The only other means of extra parochial movement which I have observed is within manors, the coverage of which can be hard to fathom but it is worth looking at.
Stu
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never really understood diffrence between IGI site and LDS sites--thought both the same origin.
The IGI is an index of the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not and never has been an index of parish registers although the infomration on it is very useful for us. Not every parish is covered and even those that are on it often have entries missing.
However, the LDS church also film a lot of registers and those are available for viewing at their centres. If you order one you then see all the entries, including burials, and can really build up a full picture of your family.
Regards
Andrea
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This link shows a map of possible church and chapels
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churchmap?GR=SE706473,D=3
You can increase the distance above 3 miles. Use the 'hand fist' cursor to move map about
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Hi
Its just a possibility ?
Thomas Handley (Han-d-ley )
birth: 28 Jun 1707
christening: 03 Jul 1707 SAINT PETER, SHEFFIELD,YORK,ENGLAND
parents: Thomas Handley
I those days young lads with farming knowledge or brought up in farming areas background were sent to agricultural labour Market auctions in the big town markets where the farmers who would come fair distances! had their pick of the bunch -so to speak. Either Parents or Overseers of the poor often use to either put boys in these markets or found them apprenticeships in trades etc.
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Many thanks for your response.
I too had noted a Thomas Handley bap 3rd July 1707 in St Peter's Sheffield--father Thomas.
Up front I considered it reasonably that my Thomas's father could have been Thomas --esp if first born --so it looked hopeful to begin with .
Note My Thomas's children were in order Hannah, Thomas, William ,John and Hannah. The first Hannah and John died under 5 . The names of his children could be clues to help locate him.
For the time being at least I am not persuing that possibility for two main reasons
a) the distance my Thomas would have migrated ( from Sheffield to Sutton upon Derwent) is almost 70Kms . This distance seems unlikely given the study that states 85% of agricultural labourers moved less than 30Kms in ER in the 18 century.--50% moved under 10KM.
A move of that length , I would say,is probably in the "quite unlikey" classification.
b) My Thomas states his age as 25 in Dec 1729 . That would mean his year of birth would be 1704 +/- 1 year . How well Thomas knew his year of birth one could not say but to be out by 2/3 years seems unlikely .
I am reasoning that my Thomas moved to Sutton upon derwent aged 21= an age perhaps back then when he was permitted to relocate ??.
That seems to link in with his statement --in Dec 1729 --that he was 25 and had been in the parish some 4 years.
If he were to be born in 1707 -- he would have been 22 in Dec 1729 --and had been 18 when he moved from Sheffield to Sutton .
This suggests his year of birth as 1707 as again "quite unlikely".
I have not rule out the sheffield possibility entirely --but will persue other avenues.
One possibility to completely eliminate the sheffield connection is to find if this person married in the parish --or perhaps next parish ---since we know he married in sutton upon derwent.
Again --thanks for your input.
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Just to re-iterate - the LDS have filmed many more parishes than have been transcribed and put on the IGI and more recently Familysearch.
You can search their catalogue here:
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlc/
There is also a link on this page to the new version of the catalogue, still in Beta.
If you find anything of interest you can order in the film to a local LDS family history centre for a small charge, and go through it using a film reader.
For some parishes (unfortunately not Sutton upon Derwent) there are quite a few other records besides the actual parish registers, such as the records of the overseers of the poor, settlement certificates etc.
Definitely worth finding out what there is for neighbouring parishes.
Anne
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I think you are mistaken to preclude people who seem to have moved far more than 10 or 30km during their working life. Remember many of their employers the estates moved their labourers (effectively serfs) from one estate to another at their whim. It could be worthwhile trying to establish who was the local landowner in the village concerned and then see what holdings he had in other parts of Yorkshire, and if that doesn't work England!
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Just had a quick look at the Sutton Upon Derwent Parish website:
http://www.suttonuponderwent.org.uk/
There are some extracts from the parish registers, which look unusually detailed, at least at some periods. It's worth looking at them in case there is more information about your ancestor, or perhaps contacting the webmaster directly.
Anne
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In response to Hearth tax advice,
Before now was not familiar with this tax --As of now-- do not know what information is carried on the records.
Has a look at site given
Came across 12 hanley names --each against a wapentake of WR .
The problem that I see is that each wapentake covers 10-20 parishes --so this does not lead me to a particular parish.
Through the LDS family search web I had already identified many WR parishes with hanley names in records pre 1710 .
The wapentake nominated in hearth tax may or may simply reflecty that what I have uncovered . .
For example I already identified hanley presence in kirkby malzeard--which is a parish of upper Claro ----and heaps of hanleys in South kirkby which is a parish of Osgoldcross .
One thing I noted from the hearth tax site nominated --no hanleys are listed under wapentake of Bartson Aske . Currently I have organised borthwick to search for Thomas in seven parishes within this Wapentake --- so prehaps not very promising .
Phil Hanley
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To all those who have replied with advice too date
many thanks to all .
I am absorbing all the advice received and will try and alter my strategy to suit.
with over 600 parishes in the 3 ridings --and a lack of parish records on free sites/ancestry my present focus is to narrow down the parishes to those where finding Thomas Hanley is more probable than others . I am aware that this may not find him --and that I will have to take a wider /different tack later.
So far all I know for certain is his marraige,--1728; his children ( names and births--hannah, thomas, william john, hannah ) , his spouse ( Emmet johnson) , that he came to sutton around 21 and was 25 in dec 1729--and that he died in sutton upon derwent . In 1739 in QSF/127/c/13 he was bound over to appear in the next qtr session of beverley for assault charge . That ( beverley) I can find no record of .
My initial thinking was that he must have been born close to the sutton parish .There were a few hanley birth pre 1700 s in york (st saviour) , thornton , pocklington, hemingbrough --all close --but nothing found in the parish records for the years 1700-1709.
if one considers that pre 1700 , for uncommon names -especially location names , and in a common area of the country --there is a fair chance that most people might be related --then my thinking is that the hanleys originated in the WR --perhaps around parishes around leeds, doncaster, wakefield
Given that thomas was an agricultural labourer --then at this stage ,whilst accepting longer distances of migration was not out of the question, it seems sensible to look first at parishes nearer to sutton upon derwent than far way-- I am think within 30/40kms.
My only other thought is how he met and married Emmet(emma) Johnson and wether finding her birthplace holds any clues to thomas. Unfortunately Johnson is a fairly common surname..
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Here are a couple of examples of mine which might help you decide how far (and why) your ancestor could have moved quite a long distance. Back in the 1950s when only winding country lanes existed my (then) farmhand boyfriend was sent to work on a farm at harvest time which was 40 miles north of his usual workplace, which was on an East Yorkshire farm. I have written proof that my West Riding, Yorkshire domestic servant ancestor whose father worked for land owning gentry was sent from Yorkshire to work in the gentry's London house - she married in Westminster, London 1810 and was back up north with her parents in 1813 where the vicar made a note on their baby's baptism record that the father was a servant in London.
The easiest and quickest method of moving great distances several centuries ago was by boat and you might find that your ancestor travelled part way along the River Derwent - I've found a website which might help you plot any likely route:-
http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-rivers/river-derwent-yorkshire/map
There are some Yorkshire Parish books online on this site - there is a facility for searching for words when you open each book online.
http://archive.org/search.php?query=Yorkshire%20Parish%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts
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These are the Hanleys who paid the hearth tax for West Yorks in 1672
Name Hearths paid Parish
.....Hanley 1 Dent 6th Bill
Christopr Hanley or
Roger Sloney 2 Fountains Earth
Richard Hanley 1 Marton with Grafton
Roger Hanley 1 Nun Monkton
Thomas Hanley 2 Stonebeck Up
Robert Hanley 1 Little Ouseburn
Willm Hanley 6 Pontefract, New Market
Robert Hanley 1 South Kirkby
John Hanley 4 Tanshelf
Henry Hanley 1 Womersley
Ralph Hanley 1 Langsett
Willm Hanley 2 Bentley with Arksey
Willm Hanley 3 Bentley with Arksey
Michaell Hanley 2 Hatfield
Richard Hanley Const Marr
James Hanley 2 Rawmarsh
Robert Handley 1 Sedbergh, first bill Marthwaite Quarter
Robert Handley 1 Sedbergh, first bill Marthwaite Quarter
Widdow Handley 2 Barnby Dun
The only problem being that not everybody paid, my farm labourer ancestors were listed as exempt.
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This is a real long shot, but there is a Thomas Anley (christian name transcribed as 'Thoma') baptised on 3/8/1707 in Elland. Father also named Thomas. This is from the Englis baptisms on the Family Search Site.
Not being a Yorkshire lass, I am not sure where Elland is in relation to the parish you are interested in.
June
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Re reply --Thomas Anley .
thank you for input . Elland I believe is SE of Leeds -some wwhere towards Huddersfield ,. With a surname of Illingworth my immediate thought is Yorkshire .
As pe my my reply to "thomas handley b Sheffield 1707" I think this Thomas is unlikely to be my thomas due principally year of birth but also secondly name .
The hanley name is fairly prominent in west riding --around the middle of thye county -- so my best bet is to look for a thomas hanley born 1703/4/5 .
Phil Hanley
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Response to Hearth tax of WR parishes .
many thanks for this information --I will use it to revist my parish maps to add those WR parishes where Hanleys lived pre 1700.
One question your message raised was how many agricultural labourers were wealthy enough to pay the hearth task ?
My understanding is the lot of the agricultural labourer was deteriorating over the centuries and many were struggling financially going into the 18th century .
Your e mail promptd me to check the hearth tax records for the east riding of Yorkshire .
Interesting to note not a single hanley/handley appears on the ER of yorkshire hearth tax list --compared to the 18 names on the WR list .
This observation again supports the thought that the Hanley surname originated in West Yorkshire --which is why I believe my Thomas is most likely to have been born .
Tracking down this thomas is like piecing a jig saw -- narrowing on possibilities from bits of information . In all likelihood I feel I will never know for certain where he was born --only say with a degree of probability.
Philip Hanley
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Here are a couple of examples of mine which might help you decide how far (and why) your ancestor could have moved quite a long distance. Back in the 1950s when only winding country lanes existed my (then) farmhand boyfriend was sent to work on a farm at harvest time which was 40 miles north of his usual workplace, which was on an East Yorkshire farm. I have written proof that my West Riding, Yorkshire domestic servant ancestor whose father worked for land owning gentry was sent from Yorkshire to work in the gentry's London house - she married in Westminster, London 1810 and was back up north with her parents in 1813 where the vicar made a note on their baby's baptism record that the father was a servant in London.
The easiest and quickest method of moving great distances several centuries ago was by boat and you might find that your ancestor travelled part way along the River Derwent - I've found a website which might help you plot any likely route:-
http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-rivers/river-derwent-yorkshire/map
There are some Yorkshire Parish books online on this site - there is a facility for searching for words when you open each book online.
http://archive.org/search.php?query=Yorkshire%20Parish%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts
[Thanks very much---the yorkshire parish information is great! . I will search through it for hanleys ---many thanks.e]
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Just had a quick look at the Sutton Upon Derwent Parish website:
http://www.suttonuponderwent.org.uk/
There are some extracts from the parish registers, which look unusually detailed, at least at some periods. It's worth looking at them in case there is more information about your ancestor, or perhaps contacting the webmaster directly.
Anne
[Thanks very much --had a quick look --interesting site . Very quickly nothing jumped up ---but will study in detail later]
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Have you tried the Hearth tax? Here is a link for West Yorks http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,524947.0.html
You could ask on the East Riding forum to see if anybody could do you a surname search for that area.
You are doing what I have had to do for some of my ancestors when I got back to the point where there seemed to be no earlier parish entries. The gaps in the IGI are annoying, though I think that sometimes they are there because there already exists a transcript.
On the subject of Ag labs moving about I have read that it was common practice to hire labourers from the next parish because when they were no longer required they would have to return to their own parish for poor relief and I have found that labourers would often live close to parish boundaries for this reason.
The only other means of extra parochial movement which I have observed is within manors, the coverage of which can be hard to fathom but it is worth looking at.
Stu
[Thanks Stu--just found out how to respond individually . I have been answering to now as a add on reply]
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never really understood diffrence between IGI site and LDS sites--thought both the same origin.
The IGI is an index of the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not and never has been an index of parish registers although the infomration on it is very useful for us. Not every parish is covered and even those that are on it often have entries missing.
However, the LDS church also film a lot of registers and those are available for viewing at their centres. If you order one you then see all the entries, including burials, and can really build up a full picture of your family.
Regards
Andrea
[Thanks Andrea--just found out how to reply to individual responses.
our info on LDS film registers was very informative --even thougj I live in W. australia I have a centre near me. I will presumably need to narrow the parishes down first --otherwise I will be requesting heaps 9 (40+) parish records
Thanks again]
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These are the Hanleys who paid the hearth tax for West Yorks in 1672
Name Hearths paid Parish
.....Hanley 1 Dent 6th Bill
Christopr Hanley or
Roger Sloney 2 Fountains Earth
Richard Hanley 1 Marton with Grafton
Roger Hanley 1 Nun Monkton
Thomas Hanley 2 Stonebeck Up
Robert Hanley 1 Little Ouseburn
Willm Hanley 6 Pontefract, New Market
Robert Hanley 1 South Kirkby
John Hanley 4 Tanshelf
Henry Hanley 1 Womersley
Ralph Hanley 1 Langsett
Willm Hanley 2 Bentley with Arksey
Willm Hanley 3 Bentley with Arksey
Michaell Hanley 2 Hatfield
Richard Hanley Const Marr
James Hanley 2 Rawmarsh
Robert Handley 1 Sedbergh, first bill Marthwaite Quarter
Robert Handley 1 Sedbergh, first bill Marthwaite Quarter
Widdow Handley 2 Barnby Dun
The only problem being that not everybody paid, my farm labourer ancestors were listed as exempt.
[Thanks for info--just found out how to rely individually .
I did reply through the chain to you . Foundhearth tax info informative -- I mentioned no hanleys/handley--or ainleys in East yorkshire Hearth tax --which strengthens belief that we came from west Yorkshire]
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This is a real long shot, but there is a Thomas Anley (christian name transcribed as 'Thoma') baptised on 3/8/1707 in Elland. Father also named Thomas. This is from the Englis baptisms on the Family Search Site.
Not being a Yorkshire lass, I am not sure where Elland is in relation to the parish you are interested in.
June
[Thanks June --just found out how to reply directly /individually ---but did reply through the chain .
philip hanley ]
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Going by this hearth Tax list of Hanley's -I would concentrate my searching parish's 10 miles either side up the river Ouse between Borough bridge and York North/West York. It makes sense ::) as people would travel meeting in York market casual also the labour market of an army of farm hands that travelled farm to farm at harvest time out of York also used to drive live stock to York market- Ho! these folk traveled about and 10 miles was nothing on the flat plains of the Vale of York
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Something of a guess, but a maximum of 30 miles apart I would say. As Dobfarm says this is nothing to people used to driving stock to market. In the same period in the next county, people would move from Boston in Lincolnshire to attend the market in Lincoln, distance over 30 miles in each direction, a round trip of 60+ miles to sell wares, or to attend hiring fairs.
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Agree about ag labs travelling some distance. I have ag labs near this area . On the 1841 census at Coneythorpe (the village near Knaresborough) are the extended family but the wife/mother/grandmother is miles away working uptoward the Thirsk area on her own . 50 years later their ag lab grandsons children are all born in different places , as far apart as Settle to Bradford to Tadcaster but at certain points he returns to the same area his grandparents came from for farm work . Children could be literally 'farmed out' too at some distance , living in barns and such like for seasonal farm labour . Also there are quite a lot of Catholics in this part of Yorkshire , though im not sure how that might affect the records for the timescale you are looking at . I remember a thread on this site re the high illigitimacy rates in Yorkshire . Something i have also found true with my own ag labs in this area . Not sure if this helps but good luck.
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. . . just had a thought , have you tried the Recusant (Catholics) lists ? They are quite long for this area
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Going by this hearth Tax list of Hanley's -I would concentrate my searching parish's 10 miles either side up the river Ouse between Borough bridge and York North/West York. It makes sense ::) as people would travel meeting in York market casual also the labour market of an army of farm hands that travelled farm to farm at harvest time out of York also used to drive live stock to York market- Ho! these folk traveled about and 10 miles was nothing on the flat plains of the Vale of York
[Thanks for your input--appreciated
I think I follow your logic -- large labour fair in York and easy access from the north east along the flat lands surrounding the Ouse allowing agricultural labourers easy means of attending and returning in a day .
Any idea of how many parishes are covered within your search boundary.
Not quite sure your opening line of "going by the hearth tax list of hanleys --unless the majority of parishes in the hearth tax are to NE of York ?---have not checked as yet
On the parish maps I have been marking up I did indeed find a few parishes NE of York with hanley--little ouseburn for one. But have not gone much further north.
I did however identify some 20 parishes in the middle of WR (Leeds to Doncaster) where the hanley name appers pre 1710 .
Do you think there is less likelhood that agricultural labourers travelled from this area to Sutton upon derwent --than from the north west of York??
Regards --and thanks again
phil hanley]
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Going by this hearth Tax list of Hanley's -I would concentrate my searching parish's 10 miles either side up the river Ouse between Borough bridge and York North/West York. It makes sense ::) as people would travel meeting in York market casual also the labour market of an army of farm hands that travelled farm to farm at harvest time out of York also used to drive live stock to York market- Ho! these folk traveled about and 10 miles was nothing on the flat plains of the Vale of York
[Thanks for your input--appreciated
I think I follow your logic -- large labour fair in York and easy access from the north east along the flat lands surrounding the Ouse allowing agricultural labourers easy means of attending and returning in a day .
Any idea of how many parishes are covered within your search boundary.
Not quite sure your opening line of "going by the hearth tax list of hanleys --unless the majority of parishes in the hearth tax are to NE of York ?---have not checked as yet
On the parish maps I have been marking up I did indeed find a few parishes NE of York with hanley--little ouseburn for one. But have not gone much further north.
I did however identify some 20 parishes in the middle of WR (Leeds to Doncaster) where the hanley name appers pre 1710 .
Do you think there is less likelhood that agricultural labourers travelled from this area to Sutton upon derwent --than from the north west of York??
Regards --and thanks again
phil hanley][ excuse use of NE of york --should of course been NW of York]
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Response to 10 miles either side of river ouse from York to Boroughbridge --based on hearth tax data
had a quick look at this--
First off would say 10 miles either side would probably take in about 40 parishes .
The hearth tax of WR of yorkshire provides two parishes with the hanley name --in this zone ---Nun Monkton and Little Ouseburn -both of which i have already marked with hanley presence pre 1710.
Note no hanleys/handleys were listed on the hearth tax of North Yorkshire --does that remove them for now..
I also noted the hanley/handley name of hearth tax in the parish of Kirkby Malzeard --which again I had already picked up on.
Another 5 plus miles further on --but still I would say within an easy days return of york.
Also name of thomas hanley --which was promising.
A search of Ancesty.uk. com --for any surname --showes nothing for these 3 parishes. I find it dissapointing that there is no list of parishes covered upfront without entering search requests.---- would save an immense amount of time
A search on familysearch.org shows all 3 parishes have some births covered between 1700 and 1710-- Nun Monkton however only dates from 1705 onwards .
None show a thomas hanley/handley. Nunmonkton has a Elizabeth hanley born 28/11/170--father edward daniel . This raises possibility of an earlier son (my thomas?) but the name edward is unusual --and is not a name my Thomas gave to his sons --thomas , John and william.
The FamilySearch library catalogue lists all parish records from mid 1600.
Given the above --is it premature at this time to persue/purchase records with Family search --or North Yorkshire county records office --for these parishes --or is it better to narrow probabilities before getteing to this stage?.
Bearing in mind there are 20 odd parishes in central WR ( leeds to Doncaster ) where hanley name appears pre 1710.
The hearth tax ( 1672) re-inforced my parishes around Doncaster area - South kirkby,Wormesley,Barnby Dun, Marr, Pontefract--all of which I have previously picked up on . This does seem to be the central area where most hanley names appear.in WR.
Again my strategy has been to try and narrow these parishes down --if possible -through on-line means --but also to add on adjacent parishes .
Philip hanley
Phil Hanley
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Going by this hearth Tax list of Hanley's -I would concentrate my searching parish's 10 miles either side up the river Ouse between Borough bridge and York North/West York. It makes sense ::) as people would travel meeting in York market casual also the labour market of an army of farm hands that travelled farm to farm at harvest time out of York also used to drive live stock to York market- Ho! these folk traveled about and 10 miles was nothing on the flat plains of the Vale of York
[Thanks for your input--appreciated
I think I follow your logic -- large labour fair in York and easy access from the north east along the flat lands surrounding the Ouse allowing agricultural labourers easy means of attending and returning in a day .
Any idea of how many parishes are covered within your search boundary.
Not quite sure your opening line of "going by the hearth tax list of hanleys --unless the majority of parishes in the hearth tax are to NE of York ?---have not checked as yet
On the parish maps I have been marking up I did indeed find a few parishes NE of York with hanley--little ouseburn for one. But have not gone much further north.
I did however identify some 20 parishes in the middle of WR (Leeds to Doncaster) where the hanley name appers pre 1710 .
Do you think there is less likelhood that agricultural labourers travelled from this area to Sutton upon derwent --than from the north west of York??
Regards --and thanks again
phil hanley]
[have added a formal reply on my study over last day--that way more people might input as possibly most effective/efficient way forward.
Regards Phil hanley]
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. . . just had a thought , have you tried the Recusant (Catholics) lists ? They are quite long for this area
[thanks --where do I find it?]
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These are the Hanleys who paid the hearth tax for West Yorks in 1672
Name Hearths paid Parish
.....Hanley 1 Dent 6th Bill
Christopr Hanley or
Roger Sloney 2 Fountains Earth
Richard Hanley 1 Marton with Grafton
Roger Hanley 1 Nun Monkton
Thomas Hanley 2 Stonebeck Up
Robert Hanley 1 Little Ouseburn
Willm Hanley 6 Pontefract, New Market
Robert Hanley 1 South Kirkby
John Hanley 4 Tanshelf
Henry Hanley 1 Womersley
Ralph Hanley 1 Langsett
Willm Hanley 2 Bentley with Arksey
Willm Hanley 3 Bentley with Arksey
Michaell Hanley 2 Hatfield
Richard Hanley Const Marr
James Hanley 2 Rawmarsh
Robert Handley 1 Sedbergh, first bill Marthwaite Quarter
Robert Handley 1 Sedbergh, first bill Marthwaite Quarter
Widdow Handley 2 Barnby Dun
The only problem being that not everybody paid, my farm labourer ancestors were listed as exempt.
When I said 'going by the Hearthtax' some of these parish's are in the Vale of York or near.
-
What I will add, as we agree the city/town markets was the meeting places! these 'ag labs' would sleep the night at farms en route in the barns etc as it was their jobs with farmers as part of the infrastructure them days in farming.
Putting it short they had feet or hitch a lift on a cart and sleep under a tree in summer or in barn/ make shift tent. (made of twigs, branches and large leaves etc-ie ~Robin Hood style~.)
-
Hi there,
Its like being Sherlock Holmes doing this ancestry lark lol.
Did try and have a look for you but although I have found
Hanleys in Yorkshire I cannot find one born 1704/5//6 time
you are looking for. There are Hanleys in Pocklington back
to 1500's and also some at Brodsworth. Both a few miles
and walkable in those days to Sutton on Derwent. If you look
for the Derwent River it comes past and through alot of Yorkshire
villages which I looked on the IGI for and Hanleys everywhere.
I did notice that some one had put Barnby Dun on the Heath Tax.
A few weeks ago I did a look up for someone around Doncaster whose
ancestor a agricultural labourer ended up in Hull. They couldnt understand
how they got so far away.
I then did some research and the River Trent runs through Nottinghamshire
and then Yorkshire through Barnby Dun and goes to the North Sea when it meets the Humber
estuary. So lots of Agricultural Labourers did use the rivers in those
days. 10 miles was not far for me to walk when I was younger, I have
never had a car and although I am now 65 and can do one mile in speed
walking in 12 minutes. So dont disregard the amount of walking people
did as I did that in the 50's and 60's. No PC or I pod to keep you in
when I was a kid. laugh. I have found that after years of research
you have to be flexible not only in the spelling of names but how our
ancestors got around. They had to move around to get money to live.
No Government handouts in those days.
Hope you eventually find your Thomas but have a look up for the
Derwent River, Yorkshire and see the map of how it gets to Sutton
regards Sandymc
-
A lot of trees seem to dry up around 1700 on the web. Maybe Thomas was not baptised ? end of story!. Maybe his father left a Will or Probate Administration with Thomas named in it
-
. . . just had a thought , have you tried the Recusant (Catholics) lists ? They are quite long for this area
[thanks --where do I find it?]
There are a few different sources for Recusant lists . The National Archives website will have some .
I tend to google surnames , areas and dates for this kind of thing .
For example you could try search/google "recusant pocklington" , "or "recusancy list yorkshire" or "thomas hanley recusant"
It might be worth a try because it is quite a Catholic area , see wikipedia recusancy map (i know my ag labs are Catholic from here , as are a lot of others probably )
I have been trying to include some links/lists for you , but for some reason i am having trouble posting them, so if a site moderator could help ? ? ? , it is saying error "must be your own work ...copyright " ...but i have not had trouble posting links before on here ??? so maybe its just a temporary glitch
-
Cut and paste is restricted on the boards for copyright reasons. For short links you can use Control C to copy and Control V to paste. Anything longer you must retype.
Andrea
-
I use Highlight & edit Copy-then edit Paste
-
Thankyou for reply mods but i was not trying to copy and paste (i know we cannot do that and it woudnt have fitted anyway) . What i was trying to do was post some links
-
Sally use edit top menu on the Windows top menu between File and View above web pages
High light the address bar first on the web page you want to make a link, click edit, click copy, then go back to rootchat reply web page box, then click edit again and click paste
-
Thanks Dobby . Will do when i get back on a computer :) (on a phone at mo)
-
Thanks Dobby . Will do when i get back on a computer :) (on a phone at mo)
Sal ,
Have two webpages up at once - 1 for rootschat & 1 for the link page
Dob's
-
Hi there,
Its like being Sherlock Holmes doing this ancestry lark lol.
Did try and have a look for you but although I have found
Hanleys in Yorkshire I cannot find one born 1704/5//6 time
you are looking for. There are Hanleys in Pocklington back
to 1500's and also some at Brodsworth. Both a few miles
and walkable in those days to Sutton on Derwent. If you look
for the Derwent River it comes past and through alot of Yorkshire
villages which I looked on the IGI for and Hanleys everywhere.
I did notice that some one had put Barnby Dun on the Heath Tax.
A few weeks ago I did a look up for someone around Doncaster whose
ancestor a agricultural labourer ended up in Hull. They couldnt understand
how they got so far away.
I then did some research and the River Trent runs through Nottinghamshire
and then Yorkshire through Barnby Dun and goes to the North Sea when it meets the Humber
estuary. So lots of Agricultural Labourers did use the rivers in those
days. 10 miles was not far for me to walk when I was younger, I have
never had a car and although I am now 65 and can do one mile in speed
walking in 12 minutes. So dont disregard the amount of walking people
did as I did that in the 50's and 60's. No PC or I pod to keep you in
when I was a kid. laugh. I have found that after years of research
you have to be flexible not only in the spelling of names but how our
ancestors got around. They had to move around to get money to live.
No Government handouts in those days.
Hope you eventually find your Thomas but have a look up for the
Derwent River, Yorkshire and see the map of how it gets to Sutton
regards Sandymc
[Thanks sandy ---
The issue of distance travelled has opened up quite a bit of correspondence .
The fact -as I see it --is although long distance migratation did occur ---it was not the norm . The study on movements in ER in the early 18th century concludes 50% of movements wrere under 10Km and 85% were under 30Kms.
I think there is a tendency to overlook restrictions on movement in those days --people were not just free to up and go .
Welfare was carried out by the individual parish and they did not like people just coming in and adding to burden. That is why many people had to get a written pledge from the parish to say they would accept the individual back if they fell on hard times.
So -again -as my aim is to determine most probable parishes --my thinking is that he would be most loikely hired to come to Sutton upon Derwent --not that he arrived uninvited
The response to my remark that I would intially restrict search to close/ max 30km --brought responses to say they had experiences which proved people travelled further . My remark however would not obtain responses from those people who agreed i.e. had experiences of very close/nearby relocations.
Many more people could advise that this was the case for them .
Incidentally I have found hanleys in Whiby --but the guy was listed as a seaman. Would think it less probable that Thomas came from Whitby than WR or ER
Regards
-
A lot of trees seem to dry up around 1700 on the web. Maybe Thomas was not baptised ? end of story!. Maybe his father left a Will or Probate Administration with Thomas named in it
[/
Thanks Dobfarm -- the thought had crossed my mind too.
Lot of my family think I am mad chasing this --but it now a big challenge ---plus an enjoyable interest.
I think my search would be interesting to a lot of people who would find themselves in exactly the same situation. ---problem around 1700.
I think this is probably caused by two factors -- very limited info on bmd parish registers--simple name and fathers name ---and movement between parishes .
Perhaps movements started to occur at this time due to restrictions in farm practices --forcing people to move. It could be that in the 17 century this did not occur.
The only way I can be certain is to check the parish records.
-
Hi there,
Its like being Sherlock Holmes doing this ancestry lark lol.
Did try and have a look for you but although I have found
Hanleys in Yorkshire I cannot find one born 1704/5//6 time
you are looking for. There are Hanleys in Pocklington back
to 1500's and also some at Brodsworth. Both a few miles
and walkable in those days to Sutton on Derwent. If you look
for the Derwent River it comes past and through alot of Yorkshire
villages which I looked on the IGI for and Hanleys everywhere.
I did notice that some one had put Barnby Dun on the Heath Tax.
A few weeks ago I did a look up for someone around Doncaster whose
ancestor a agricultural labourer ended up in Hull. They couldnt understand
how they got so far away.
I then did some research and the River Trent runs through Nottinghamshire
and then Yorkshire through Barnby Dun and goes to the North Sea when it meets the Humber
estuary. So lots of Agricultural Labourers did use the rivers in those
days. 10 miles was not far for me to walk when I was younger, I have
never had a car and although I am now 65 and can do one mile in speed
walking in 12 minutes. So dont disregard the amount of walking people
did as I did that in the 50's and 60's. No PC or I pod to keep you in
when I was a kid. laugh. I have found that after years of research
you have to be flexible not only in the spelling of names but how our
ancestors got around. They had to move around to get money to live.
No Government handouts in those days.
Hope you eventually find your Thomas but have a look up for the
Derwent River, Yorkshire and see the map of how it gets to Sutton
regards Sandymc
I agree you have to have lateral thinking. I have a Norfolk ancestor who was an apprenticed sailor but gave up a life on a boat when he met and married a girl up in the Sunderland area - he worked on the land for the rest of his life.
I know I suggested inland people travelled by river but as in the case of the man who ended up in Hull: - people often walked along "drovers trails", made by farmhands who took geese, cattle, pigs and sheep to markets. Hull had massive warehouses where they kept cattle which were exported to the colonies.
... and, for instance, there's an ancient drovers trail from Hereford to Wales where thousands of animals were taken to feed the workers who flooded the places where coal had been found. There used to be a drovers trail from Scotland down to Herefordshire too - maybe the Scots sold their cattle to some middle men in Herefordshire who then walked them to other destinations.
My best guess is you've found possible parents for the ancestor if all the ancestor's children have names which fit the older generation... e.g. their grandparents names and names of mother's/father's oldest sister/brother.
-
Hi, Hanley P
A lot of what you say or conveying about moment of people from parish to parish also across parish boundaries, or permanent migration from one parish to another and has to take into account many factors in history. Wealth, poor, poverty, occupations, trades, apprenticeships, laws, regional uprisings, Militia, land owners as deeds , tenant farmers leases, general workers known as labourer and many other factors like parish rules and regs as poorlaw. Therefore whether Thomas Hanley was one of the very few who did migrate over 10 km or 100 miles in the extream or one of the statistics who never moved above 10 km away, if he did migrate? there could be settlement/removal/overseers relief payments records or his parish of birth records if he receive relief payments from is birth parish in another parish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Poor_Laws
Urban city/town life in parish's and country agricultural ural parish life, also the workforce did differ, where as its been already mentioned aforesaid on this board thread that in farming communities workers did travel across parish boarders to markets, to move livestock and travel to different farms as harvesting time as each farm got their crops in and then on to the next farm. These workers would probably would have been young single men before settling down to a married life whether that be their home parish, their future wife's parish or where the young man found his employment.
With disease rampant then with short life expectancy, people moving to cities to find better paid employment from country life, leaving the farmers to travel futher to find workers.
As said statistics & real life factors do differ and as you say with basic parish single line BMD's entries pre 1754 it is very had to prove anything.
Again in short if they were wealthy or very poor there were records but in between as people with jobs or trades the records are poor! if non existant. Cork screw thinking is really need here.
-
When people moved between parishes they would need a "Settlement Certificate" ( permission to move into a parish). Unfortunately not many remain.
I've already looked on the A2A manorial website and there doesn't appear to be one for Thomas - only this 1729 record which obviously you've already seen:-
"Thomas Hanley of Sutton on Derwent labourer and George Rosendale of York fishmonger: - assault by T.H. and wife on Jonathan Thorp. QSF/127/C/13 c1739
These documents are held at East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service"
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/advanced-search.aspx?tab=1
-
Corkscrew thinking.
Another reason to find mass general labour workers
River Derwent Yorkshire
In 1702 an Act of Parliament was passed authorising its proprietors to improve the river. Towpaths were laid out and "locks, turnpikes, pens for water, wharfs and warehouses" were constructed. The promoters of these works were allowed to charge tolls on the cargo carried on any part of the river.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Derwent,_Yorkshire
QU- Did Thomas's dad move there with Thomas and his wife to work on the river around 1704 or much later but by 1730 the river work was finished and Thomas found local work
Maybe his dad was an Irish digger worker ?
-
When people moved between parishes they would need a "Settlement Certificate" ( permission to move into a parish). Unfortunately not many remain.
I've already looked on the A2A manorial website and there doesn't appear to be one for Thomas - only this 1729 record which obviously you've already seen:-
"Thomas Hanley of Sutton on Derwent labourer and George Rosendale of York fishmonger: - assault by T.H. and wife on Jonathan Thorp. QSF/127/C/13 c1739
These documents are held at East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service"
[Thanks came across this too --but the report has no mention of thomas birth place --Could not find the actual qtr session of the peace at beverley in which he was being bound ( for sum of 10 pounds) to attend.
Would love to read that!
Incidentally I think Jonathan Thorpe must have ben a poacher. Lots of documents listing him as trespassing over the years . That why my Thomas mped him . reckon poaching fish--that why George -- fishmonger is mentioned
Regards --Phil Hanley . ]
-
re 'Irish' workers . I dont think there would have been many Irish in Yorks at this time , Irish migrants came over more in the mid to late 1800s. . . . . . . . . re 'poachers and the assault by Thomas , his wife and the other chap . Maybe all four of them were poachers/criminals and thats why they got off with it so lightly . Dukes up over some swag :) Might even be related to each other in some way.
-
Corkscrew thinking.
Another reason to find mass general labour workers
River Derwent Yorkshire
In 1702 an Act of Parliament was passed authorising its proprietors to improve the river. Towpaths were laid out and "locks, turnpikes, pens for water, wharfs and warehouses" were constructed. The promoters of these works were allowed to charge tolls on the cargo carried on any part of the river.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Derwent,_Yorkshire
QU- Did Thomas's dad move there with Thomas and his wife to work on the river around 1704 or much later but by 1730 the river work was finished and Thomas found local work
Maybe his dad was an Irish digger worker ?
[/Thomas only came to Sutton in 1725 --so does not fit..Also Thomas is firts hanley mentioned in bmd of parish
Thanks anyway --appreciate your inpit
Phil Hanley
-
re 'Irish' workers . I dont think there would have been many Irish in Yorks at this time , Irish migrants came over more in the mid to late 1800s. . . . . . . . . re 'poachers and the assault by Thomas , his wife and the other chap . Maybe all four of them were poachers/criminals and thats why they got off with it so lightly . Dukes up over some swag :) Might even be related to each in some way.
Maybe not, but researching my ancestors in Lincolnshire (next county) I found there have been Irish Labourers coming into the county to work in agriculture since the 17th century at least. So they may well have been coming then.
-
re 'Irish' workers . I dont think there would have been many Irish in Yorks at this time , Irish migrants came over more in the mid to late 1800s. . . . . . . . . re 'poachers and the assault by Thomas , his wife and the other chap . Maybe all four of them were poachers/criminals and thats why they got off with it so lightly . Dukes up over some swag :) Might even be related to each in some way.
[
Maybe not, but researching my ancestors in Lincolnshire (next county) I found there have been Irish Labourers coming into the county to work in agriculture since the 17th century at least. So they may well have been coming then.]
[ Working on probabilites rather than possibilities I think the Irish Link is unlikely.
Would presue it if I came to a dead end .
I agree with the comment that the vast majority of Irish immigration occurred a 100 years later --in the 19th century .
People in my family said there was an Irish link somewhere but I have found no trace of it.
Think the reason for the belief is simply that Hanley is a common name in Ireland --around Cork so I undersatnd .
Given that Hanley name is well established mid 1600 in WR of yorkshire -- I think it is reasonable to conclude my hanley name has its origins in England
Regards --thanks for the inputs.--appreciated --all helps the thinking process]
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Here are a couple of examples of mine which might help you decide how far (and why) your ancestor could have moved quite a long distance. Back in the 1950s when only winding country lanes existed my (then) farmhand boyfriend was sent to work on a farm at harvest time which was 40 miles north of his usual workplace, which was on an East Yorkshire farm. I have written proof that my West Riding, Yorkshire domestic servant ancestor whose father worked for land owning gentry was sent from Yorkshire to work in the gentry's London house - she married in Westminster, London 1810 and was back up north with her parents in 1813 where the vicar made a note on their baby's baptism record that the father was a servant in London.
The easiest and quickest method of moving great distances several centuries ago was by boat and you might find that your ancestor travelled part way along the River Derwent - I've found a website which might help you plot any likely route:-
http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-rivers/river-derwent-yorkshire/map
There are some Yorkshire Parish books online on this site - there is a facility for searching for words when you open each book online.
http://archive.org/search.php?query=Yorkshire%20Parish%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts
[
Internet archives --Yorkshire parishes
Just had search through these parishes --some great data -much from 1650 to 1850 --pity there is only about 20-30 parishes covered of the 600 + in Yorkshire .
Be great if all Yorkshire were here
hanleys/handlesy/ ainleys pre 1710 were listed in the following
North Yorkshire --
WHitby -William hanley married 1658 --then his son -thomas boen 1661 , 2nd thomas bap 1671 + few more
West Riding
Ecclesfield --sheffield
margret handley married 1592
William hanley married 1618
Garforth [nr pontefract }
William --married 1671
Monk fryston [ nr pontefract} --jane hanley married 1632
Blyth --ext-chapel of austerley- Jervisse handley married 1643
East riding
brantingham --very south -Susanna ainley -married 1688
Ainstey of york
holy trinity ,Goodramgate- christopher handley --son of john , born 1577
elizabeth handley married 1639
St michaels le belfrey --Anne aynley -- born 1569 -father Richard ainley
in summing up --not enough parishes to shed an extra light on search
Shows anelys in mid 1600 around pontefract in mid Wr and Sheffield--and York city
i had earlier picked up hanleys in the ER parishes of Thornton [1615] and Pocklington [1636].
Both of these are very near sutton upon derwent --but Borthwick found no thomas born around 1705.
Think that hese parishes and adjacent one cannot be excluded for deatiled search of parish records .
still thinks odds are he ventured from WR.
Phil hanley
etapperG
s were covered like these tat rhough /quote]
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If you don't mind other spellings then the Hearth tax also has these:
John Anlay 1 Sowerby
Mary Anley widd 3 Selby
Nichols Ainley 1 Slaithwaite
John Ainley 2 Slaithwaite
John Ainley 1 Stainland
Jarvas Ainley 1 Longwood Quarter
Edward Ainley 2 Longwood Quarter
Joshua Aynley 1 Honley
John Aynley 1 Marsden
Mary Anley of Selby looks to be the only one nearby though.
-
If you don't mind other spellings then the Hearth tax also has these:
John Anlay 1 Sowerby
Mary Anley widd 3 Selby
Nichols Ainley 1 Slaithwaite
John Ainley 2 Slaithwaite
John Ainley 1 Stainland
Jarvas Ainley 1 Longwood Quarter
Edward Ainley 2 Longwood Quarter
Joshua Aynley 1 Honley
John Aynley 1 Marsden
Mary Anley of Selby looks to be the only one nearby though.
[Thanks sstarr 2008--appreciate all your messages
Interesting article on web "ainsley of elland " which states the origins in Ellandy--sw of Huddersfield.
That article states very early records and highlights that in 1340/41 the name of hanley was first used .
That change in spelling makes a lot of sense to me --as ainley sounds very much like hanley --especially in yorkshire accent .
Another site has handleys from hampshire --which seems unlikely as a link to me.
The majority of ainleys in your Hearth tax list are sw of huddersfield --very near Elland itself --supporting the web article .
So it seems quite plausable that the hanley name could have stemmed from the name of Ainsley which has its origins in elland sw of huddersfield . From this area hanleys could have spread out through the rest of WR --and then into ER .
Does not bring me nearer to finding Thomas's birthplace in 1704/5/6 -- but still interesting .
I think I am going to bite the bullet --and order parishes records from Family search centres ---never done it before so do not know how expensive this is.
alternative is to get the various arches in wr to search for me .
Probably have about a dozen to 2 dozen parishes to look at
Which of these is the way to go -- not yet decided
regards Phil hanley]
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Pre 1800 and to a large extent afterwards DON'T concern yourself about spelling, there was no standard. Remember Shakespeare spelled his own name at least 3 different ways in his own will! The person making the record wrote down what he thought he had heard, so Anlay, Ainley etc. could all have the same root. A Y chromosome DNA test might be useful here.
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Pre 1800 and to a large extent afterwards DON'T concern yourself about spelling, there was no standard. Remember Shakespeare spelled his own name at least 3 different ways in his own will! The person making the record wrote down what he thought he had heard, so Anlay, Ainley etc. could all have the same root. A Y chromosome DNA test might be useful here.
[thanks redroger
About DNA usefulness ---not sure how this could help
Wouldn't I have to find a dna link to someone who was a known descendant of a thomas hanley/ainley/handley/hanely/aynley born 1704-6 ???
That way I could say their thomas and mine were one and the same--and thus use their family research
The other use would be to prove the hanleys of wr descended from the ainsley of Elland. That, whilst of interest, would not help find my thomas's birthplace
Again I would need to find persons with DNA link to Ainsley 's of Elland
I suspect for the most part, that the DNA test best use is to trace the area of the world your ancesters came from. In my case that would have to be ER/WRr of Yorkshire.
I welcome clarification/additional info
Regards ]
-
Hi again,
At least you seem to be cracking on with the information you are receiving.
I found a site today which might interest you. Its the top surnames in all
the towns and villages of Yorkshire.
I looked down a very long list and found the following for you.
Hanly - found at Whittley Upper which is 6 miles from Huddersfield
Ainley - found at Golcar which is 2.4 miles from Huddersfield
I also noticed on one of the lists of Heath Tax the Ainley was at
Slaithwaite and thats 4.2 miles from Huddersfield and only 2 miles
from Golcar.
I also saw the Handleys but they all come from places around Doncaster area.
One Handley and also spelt as Hendley is at a place called
Hooton Pagnell which is on the border of West Yorkshire.
There are some interesting facts about having your DNA tested for geneology
and its great if you are a man, in my case I would love to find out if we
are from the Vikings in Yorkshire, but I need my Bros to do that
Hope this helps with your parish search
regards Sandymc
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The use of a Y chromosome DNA test would be to prove or disprove whether the variant surnames come from a common root. It is worthwhile looking at the past DNA threads on this site to get a greater degree of detail.
By the way, I am of Viking descent, according to my DNA test, my DNA is widespread in Sweden, North Germany, Normandy, Istanbul and Sicily. All places settled by Scandinavians. Particularly interesting is the Istanbul link, back to the Yomsburg vikings who formed the bodyguard of the Easter Roman Emperor. The Sicilian link is also interesting, my offers are seldom refused. 8)
-
9/July/2012 --Progress update .
Been a while since I raised this query--thought it worth to say how far I have got in my search.
First off learnt the genuki web is additionally useful in advising supporting societies for the parish.
Have been in touch with a number of local Family history societies --which have been helpful . Also there are Yorkshire exchange websites where you can contact volunteers re specific parish records . One was excellent - but nothing heard from the second .
At present I am following a suspicion that Thomas Hanley was born in one of the parishes in the Doncaster Diochese areas -- especially to the north east of the parish of Badsworth -in particular Snaith , Fishlake, Thorne or Campsall.
There were 3 sons born to a George hanlay in the 1670s in badsworth --William, Thomas and John. There is no trace of John or Thomas marrying/dying in the aprish --so I am suspecting they moved into a doncaster parish to the west/north/east --and one parish in particular--Snaith --which is just 18 miles away from Sutton upon derwent and navigable by river .
The feeling is that either john or thomas could be my Thomas's father . worth noting that my thomas named his 3 sons Thomas, John and William .
For some reason I know not it seems that IGI/family search did not pick up on the Doncaster parish BMDs -and neither has Ancestry.uk --hence my inability to find the birth of my thomas born 1704 plus/minus 2/3 years .
The Snaith parish records 1537-1657 are published on the web --thereafter nothing .
I have located 2 possible sources for obtaining snaith parish records covering 1700-1710 .
1 --Doncaster FHS
2 --Doncaster archives
Before deciding on wether to pay for searches/Cds from these sources I might just raise a seperate request on RootsChat to see if anyone has the records and can search for me .
Will do this next month.
Then I will order the documents .
philip hanley
-
Go for that Phillip. I am aware there are several members of DFHS who might be ab le to help.
-
Have just discovered your messages posted on Rootschat, and followed the discussion over many pages. From Hobart Tasmania, I have been researching the Hanley[Handley] family and also have been stumped with Thomas Hanley and Emmet Johnson. My Handley line also springs from this source. William Handley, son of William and Hannah Handley and born in York was transported to Van Diemens Land. His younger brother James migrated later and was sponsored by his brother.
I was interested in the DNA discussion briefly mentioned with respect to the ancestry of the Hanley line, possibly having some genesis with the Vikings. I have reason to believe that we are [without any testing] as my brother has a minor medical condition possibly inherited through this lineage.
Many thanks
Louise
-
Have just discovered your messages posted on Rootschat, and followed the discussion over many pages. From Hobart Tasmania, I have been researching the Hanley[Handley] family and also have been stumped with Thomas Hanley and Emmet Johnson. My Handley line also springs from this source. William Handley, son of William and Hannah Handley and born in York was transported to Van Diemens Land. His younger brother James migrated later and was sponsored by his brother.
I was interested in the DNA discussion briefly mentioned with respect to the ancestry of the Hanley line, possibly having some genesis with the Vikings. I have reason to believe that we are [without any testing] as my brother has a minor medical condition possibly inherited through this lineage.
Many thanks
Louise
reply to Louise,
Been a while since my last posting on roots -- see if I can remember how to reply.
First off which William are we referring to who went to Tasmania ? Can you say how he is linked to the thomas hanley who married emmet johnson in 1728 in sutton upon derwent ?
There are a few William and Hannahs in my tree .
Figure Hanleys originated from at least 3 places in UK ---West Riding (Elland--my mob) , Hampshire and Ireland.
Gave up my search for birthplace of Thomas ( born abt 1704 ,married in 1728) for now --too many parish records still not on-line . Must have eliminated 60 plus parishes ( of the most likely ) --but 100s more.
WRT DNA -- my (limited) understanding is that it simply places the basic tribe of origin from 1 to 2 1000's years ago ie Asian , African,
Going that far back I would say it would not shed light on present day health.
Quite happy to exchange info --but as unlikely to be part of the thread of "Search for Thomas Hanley" perhaps we could work through direct personnal mesages .
Can't remember at the moment how to do this -and away for a few days --but could have a go on my return..
Regards Phil Hanley
-
A 37 marker Y chromsome test with FTDNA costs approx £90. As you and your brother will show the same markers, one will be OK for both of you, so if you want one, why not ask him to go halves?
-
Snaith Parish Reg bapt 1559-1901
The first mention of Hanley is John s of William 1736
oly
-
Doncaster St George Bapt - Thomas s of William Hanley labourer - 10 Oct 1706
Oly
-
Doncaster St George Bapt - Thomas s of William Hanley labourer - 10 Oct 1706
Oly
Reply to Oly.
Thanks for info-I have searched that many parishes now I have begun to forget which ones .
I held out some hope that the Thomas Hanlay born badsworth in 1676 may have been my Thomas's ( born abt 1704 ) father--but could find no trace of him. My thinking was if I could find the parish of his marraige or death I might hit on a Thomas birth around 1704/6.
This Thomas ( b 1676) had two brothers --John and William -both born in badsworth. It would appear William died in Badsworth and John in Pontefract . No Thomas seems to have been born to these.
Your Thomas Hanley born Doncaster in 1706 -father William -is probably the nearest I come to a possibility . I have long suspected Doncaster and Pontefract as the areas Thomas is most likely to have come from .(Doncaster for reason that most parish records are not on line) . I did eliminate most parishes to the north of-- Doncaster --as I felt this was most likely where he would travel to Sutton upon Derwent from--as some 4 others to the south ( Barnby Dun,Armthorpe, Kirk sandall and Adwick le street -through purchase of parish records --Anyone like these ?
Can't think for the moment whether I actually covered Dncaster itself . .
My Thomas has his age recorded in Dec 1729 as 25 . Is it possibly then ( assuming the age is correct) that the Thomas born in doncaster in 1706 could be him? At this point in time I am thinking his year of birth more likely to be 1704/5 --but I know that the calender was different then -as year did not start till April.
Setting that aside--is there any trace of the marraige /death of the Doncaster born Thomas in /our adjacent to, Doncaster? .
This would then rule him out .
Thanks again
Regards Phil Hanley
Swillima 61ams n7beat r st
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Doncaster Family History PR's are available to view on "Find my Past".
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Doncaster Family History PR's are available to view on "Find my Past".
reply to KLM
-never know wether to put response after [ quote] or inside
thanks --was in touch with Doncaster FHS and looked at published material--gets expensive purchasing books/CDs just to eliminate --with nothing to go on .--bought 4--must be a way these 4 can be used to help others -.
Their search costs--if memory serves -were relatively expensive.
You would think these days everything would be on computer and searching would be very simple and very quick. happy to pay 10 quid for that ---then happy to purchase relevant books /cds.
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Fairly recently other relevant records have been added to both Ancestry and Find my Past programmes ,both of which can often be accessed via public libraries.
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It is now July 2015 - and over 3 years since I raised the quest for the birthplace of Thomas Hanley who married in Sutton upon Derwent in 1728--but from a cause paper in Dec 1729 I know not to be born there.
In that cause paper his age is given as 25 around .
The vast majority of Hanleys I found were in WRY -in-between those parishes from Leeds to Doncaster -with a large group in South Kirkby . Some Hanleys existed In NRY - Masham and Ripon(Kirkby Malzeard) area--whilst relatively only a odd few in NRY.
Given that most Agricultural labourers relocated short distances ( 50% under 10 miles) I had hoped to pick up Hanleys in parishes next to Sutton upon Derwent . In the adjacent parish of Thornton in Pocklington found a couple of Hanleys in 1630s -but could find no traces of them or descendants afterwards
After searching most parishes in the 3 Yorkshire ridings I resigned myself to it being a lost cause .
In the last month however I found on "Find my past" -the Bishops transcripts for year 1704 -one Thomas Hanley born Jan 21st 1704 Driffield ERY .
In todays calendar this would have been Jan 21st 1705. Ok- if the same person Thomas of Sutton would only have been 24 in Dec1729 -but would only be 6 weeks away from being 25. Since the term 25 "about" is written on the cause paper I think it well likely that his age would have been put as 25.
This is the closest- by far-of a Thomas Hanley I have come across to been born anywhere near Sutton in 1703/4/5.
Strangely enough in one earlier post reply I had raised that many parish records including ERY were still not on-line and gave Driffield as an example
I cannot locate Driffield bishop transcripts or parish bmd records of around that time-and other surrounding parishes, on any other site (than Findmypast).
Driffield is 22 miles from Sutton -so a reasonable distance for an agricultural labourer to resettle-( (90% travelled less than 30miles ) -a fair bit closer than some of the WRY parishes that I had thought most likely before.
No sign so far of a marriage or death of Thomas in Driffield -will look at adjacent parishes .
Nothing is likely to prove Thomas born Driffield is Thomas married Sutton upon Derwent--but at least a stronger connection than anything previous-especially if no sign of him abt Driffield .
Philip Hanley
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Only 3 years? I found what I think was the baptism of my 2XGGf in 1997! Still not been able to prove it or who his father was for certain. I know there are other people on this site who have had even longer waiting times, so please be patient. It could be tomorrow, or in 20 years, or never.
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Thanks Redroger --nice to hear from you again.
Perhaps an incomplete choice of words --Should have said ---lost cause "at this point of time"
The main reason I added my latest finding -several years after my query was raised - was to help people in similar searches. Roots has provided me a valuable platform in my research -- allowing me to hear for people with good advice like yourself . So , I looked to return that service -in the hope it might help others .
First off--my situation would be fairly common. Most people -outside of London - around 1700 -would be agricultural labourers -and I would think quite a few would move parishes seeking employment -I guess at the age of 21 when their apprenticeship ended . This break between parishes proves a major problem in ancestry research. Around 1700 with the enclosure of common land I think we at the point where the lot of the Agricultural labourers started to become harder -and security and conditions worsened . Relocation would start to become more common .
Most labourers did indeed move to adjacent / very close parishes -- but the majority (70%) of movement limited to under 30 miles. A distance of 30 miles in Yorkshire however covers a hundred or more parishes .
I would think that people who relocated long distance - 100miles- were likely to be trades or servants closely attached to rich people (who had number of residences throughout the land ie not AL. )
So the question is what records are available to capture where the individual relocated from ?--since marriage and death records did not capture this -nor the parents place of birth --at that time.
One possibility is the Dades records ( last 20 years of 18th century and first 10 of the 19th) which capture sometimes grandparents and sometimes their parishes. However this would only cover grandfathers parish of living -not place of birth.
Settlement certificates would seem to be the obvious record --being an agreement between parishes of who accepted responsibility of looking after the person if he could not support himself .( parishes before the workhouses being the responsible for welfare of paupers/ill infirmed ). Have not come across these --and I don't know how common the practice was.
Initially I was under the impression that settlement arrangements took place at the time of relocation between the two parishes .ie if he becomes a burden we can send him back. In that case Thomas would have had some settlement agreement . In now appears the settlement undertaking only occurred if an individual became a burden--and usually if he had only been in the parish a short time . In that case Thomas would not have a settlement paper to his name .
The causes papers ( Church hearings - like a court case-for things such as poaching, stealing, slander) can perhaps assist. I found two for Thomas --but neither gave his parish of birth . The first however did capture that he was not born in Sutton upon Derwent -arriving at age 21 and being 25 about -in Dec 1729 - a pretty key finding in my search
Wills -I would think -unlikely as agricultural labourers had nothing .
Another significant point I noted was that not all parish records are yet on line. Some records are on some sites . Even large ancestry sites have lots of missing parish records pre 1800
Around 1700 we are reaching the time when some parish records are incomplete -some parishes go back complete and well documented another 100 plus years but if ancestors left the parish this does not help.
Bishops transcripts ( annual summary of bmds sent to the bishop] seems to help for some missing years -but only show details captured on the parish records -which is not place of birth on marriages or deaths if not of the parish
Marriage records do capture the parish of groom and bride -but if the person relocated parish ( from place of birth) before the marriage it is only the parish of residence that is captured.
It seems to me that most agricultural labours married around 23-26 --certainly not at 21 . So in my case Thomas moved parishes at 21[I suspect the norm ], and married at 24 . His marriage record simply states "of this parish" [ Sutton upon Derwent]
So where does that leave me. Only to find a birth of someone possible and see if he/she can be ruled out by a marriage or death record leaving who is left as possible -but never proven .
In my case I have one -Thomas Hanley born Driffield 21st Jan 1704 ( 1705 in todays calendar)
Or perhaps find a settlement paper --or some obscure document --or trace his siblings to see if that adds to probability .
See what I can find about him .
Regards Phil Hanley
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Try a trawl of the archives in East Yorkshire, and also check out zany FH Societies in the area, I would try both sides of the river, you never know.
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Thanks Redroger ,
Up to now I was of the opinion that Thomas most likely came to Sutton upon Derwent ( in EY) from the WR -from one of the parishes between Leeds and Doncaster. This was simply based on the observation that the vast majority of Hanleys to be found were from that area .
The other possibility -I now realise I should have considered - is that most of the early parish records of the ERY were not as yet on any web site --and that there were more Hanleys in EY yet to be uncovered .
I am now finding out that the a lot of early parish records held by the EYRO in Beverley are still not to be found on any on-line site .Some BTs for these areas are on FindMyPast --but BTs do not cover the parish records years by a long way .
I have discovered Hanley's from 1600 to 1700 is four basic areas of ERY --Pocklington , Driffield, Hull and Beverley . Whilst these are not in large numbers they cant have just disappeared .
So I am now revising my opinion that Thomas may well have been born in ERY --nearer to Sutton on Derwent ---my original starting point .
Whilst I have managed to eliminate most of the Pocklington and adjacent parishes ( through Borthwick-plus this areas does seem more on line) the only three areas are still almost largely missing from on line site ( Ancestry, IGI, FindMyPast) .
As mentioned I have found ( through FindMyPast BTs) one Thomas Hanley born 21st 1705 in Driffield who does fit -time and name. Driffield is 22 miles from Sutton upon Derwent - and this is a typically average distance for an unmarried single agricultural labourer to move .
Whilst all Roots advice received to this query is not to rule out long relocation distances I am conscious of how short distances my ancestors moved until the railways came along.
I have asked EYRO to see if they can find a marriage or death of a Thomas Hanley -in Driffield or the adjacent parishes . This may rule him out .
Apart from that I can only think to wait a few more years in the hope that more EY parish records are brought onto on -line sites. (If I lived in England I would visit Beverley and trawl through their records) . I have made enquires to some of the ancestry sites --but have been unable to obtain any clarification of when this might occur .
Regards Phil Hanley
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.. Most people -outside of London - around 1700 -would be agricultural labourers -and I would think quite a few would move parishes seeking employment -I guess at the age of 21 when their apprenticeship ended...
I am not sure most agricultural labourers would have taken any kind of official apprenticeship. It was mostly unskilled work.
http://www.cambridgeshirehistory.com/People/agriculturallabourers.html
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Thanks Sally ,
Yes --bad choice of word (apprenticeship) . Really did not think anything formal existed --and I did recognise that children would work on the farm from an early age.
Have not ever come across details of what age AG labourers were allowed to move on . In Thomas's case he seems to have moved when 21. I looked at this as perhaps a formal age of acceptance of when things may have been allowed .
I kind of thought AG labourers born and raised in a parish might have some loose commitment to be kept on until that age --or alternatively other parishes would be generally unhappy to permit people under 21 to come and work in their parish. Presumably they had to be some sort of control -with age a significant factor
I came this ----"In 1754, Hardwicke's Marriage Act, decreed that parties under the age of 21 (minors) required the consent of parents or guardians to marry. "
That advises that pre 1754 people under 21 were considered minors--so 21 does seem to have some significance.
I am also struck by the average marriage age in the 18th century -23 for woman and 26 for men . That seems to me to imply some informal/formal opposition to marrying young -by society/parish/church ?
One would expect to see early marriage discouraged at the time . --again nothing to be found on this .
Regards Phil Hanley
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There is an old book on Google books which may be of interest, the memoirs of William Hirst who went from being poor to owning a woollen mill. The first few pages show just how much he travelled about in his youth. His story may be exceptional but it does show that movement was possible, even for the poorest.
The book is on Google at : http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g3q/
Stu
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Thanks Stu ,
Few points that spring to mind.
William Hirst was born 72 years after my Thomas --much more into the industrial revolution ( with increased job opportunities/travel opportunities ) and in Huddersfield --an area I would take as far more exposed to the Industrial revolution than the farming areas of the East Riding which was largely untouched by it.
William did have a family member in the trade --his uncle a carrier . I would not have thought most AL -especially those in remote farming areas -would have such a connection .
Article does not say what Williams parents did-so don't know if they were AL . Reading between lines Huddersfield does not appear to be a significant farming ( crops -wheat etc) area and William at 10 worked in gardens-estate work ?
As a 15 year old boy William did indeed travel a long way (abt 40 miles) to Bawtrey . He did this however without the knowledge of his parents --( or anyone else for that matter ) and as he says he travelled such a distance purposely to go to the "Low country" to obtain harvest work .
Whether he would have travelled 40 miles if good farming lands existed closer would be another question . Also whether he would normally have been sent home then --or 70 years earlier-- when relocation between parishes may have been more rigidly controlled-- is also a question.
Interesting to note that when his family found out where he had moved to his brother came to try and get him back home . Clearly at 15/16 he was still deemed too young to undertake such a relocation .
As it turns out I think it quite fortunate for William that he survived his long trip and managed to find employment . As he states they had not thought anything through and came 2 weeks before harvesting . Had William not been fortunate to find employment with "the best farmer in the area" I think it most likely he would have been very soon forced to return to Huddersfield. You don't last long without food --the ultimate need for survival
In my Thomas's case I think it probably that employment would be found through the hiring fairs . That way at least there was some guarantee of work. At the same time -unless job offers were very secure , it seems logical that the fall back position -if no work and no food - would be get back to family.
Logically for both him and the parish system at the time ( which looked after the welfare of the needy ) there is a positive reason for AL not to relocate too far -if that was an option .
To now I have formed the view that 30 mile plus relocation of Thomas --as an AL in ERY at age 21 in 1725 -.as unlikely. The circumstances of William's travel experience of a 40 mile travel journey at 15 from Huddersfield really does not alter that view.
Thomas children and grandchildren all worked in Sutton upon Derwent as AL for the next 100 years-with his great grand child also an AL less than 10 miles from Sutton . I have two great uncles in 1920s still employed on farms -one as a shepherd , the other on an harvester.
That seems to say to me that ERY was a strong farming county with little movement of people relative to the industrial counties -Lancashire , WRY , Midlands -until the railways came along.
At the time my relatives started to move around the county. Before then they did not -only a few miles .
Anyway obliged for your response --all makes for good thinking --and on-going comments from others
Regards Phil Hanley
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26 September 2015- latest progress update .
I note that there is almost 10,000 views of this posting -so hopefully it is helpful to others.
In the interest of continuing to help others --with similar searches-- this is my latest report of progress in trying to locate Thomas Hanley.
As in earlier message-- located Thomas Handley born Jan 1705 ( our calendar) in Great Driffield via BT ( Bishop Transcript -annual summary of Parish BMDs sent to area bishop) on FindMyPast. I believe these BTs may have been obtained from Borthwick.
Noted -on GENUKI England web site- that BTs from 1600-1720 are quite incomplete - perhaps 10-15% captured -both for Great Driffield and surrounding parishes ..
Organised ERYO to search the parish records for Great Driffield plus the seven surrounding parishes
(Little Driffield, Kilham, Langtoft, Garton ,Kirkburn ,Hutton Cranswick and Skerne) for the marriage and death of Thomas .
Noted on GENUKI site that all these parish records held by EYRO as being complete almost from 1600 on .
Their search advised no marriage or death of Thomas Hanley/Handley to be found in these parishes. This then does not rule out possibility that Thomas born Gt Driffield 1705 and Thomas -married 1728 in Sutton upon Derwent -maybe one and same .
From what records I have come across so far it would seem the parents of Thomas born in Gt Driffield in 1705 was Robert and Mary ( nee Tweed )-married Little Driffield 1702 . Robert looks to have been born in Little Driffield in 1675 ( father John/Johanis) and died (servant ) in Gt Driffield Jan 1726.
The siblings of Thomas from Driffield look to be Robert ( bap 1702) and John ( bap 1707) plus two with name Hanlon that I think are likely siblings ---William ( bap 1712 ) and Mary ( bap 1717).
There is a death of a John Hanley in Gt Driffield in 1691 -with a probate . Don't know whether worth getting a copy as before 1705 .
So what I can make of all that down the track? Think will have to wait until EYRO parish records are on-line . EYRO advise they are working through them.
Interesting that one high profile ancestry site advised -"we have millions of BMD records on our site-but still have millions to add".
I will see later if a thorough search of EY parish records can build up the probability that Thomas of Sutton upon Derwent may have been born in Gt Driffield in Jan 1705.--or even find another Thomas Hanley born 1705.
Philip Hanley
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For the record/interest/help of others
Latest update -27 Oct 2015. Philip Hanley - 3+ years down the track searching for the birth of Thomas Handley -married 1728
Current task at hand is to see if I strengthen, or rule out, the link that Thomas Handley /Hanley -born Great Driffield Jan 1705 ( father Robert) may be the same person as the Thomas Hanley ( agricultural labourer ) who married in Sutton upon Derwent in 1728 ( 21 miles away )--and who is my direct ancestor .
Known for certain that Thomas was not born of Sutton -and in 1729 had been in the parish for about 4 years .Age stated in Dec 1729 as "about 25" making his year of birth 1704/5.
Finding a Thomas born 1705 in Driffield only happened in the last 6 months. Before then could not find a Thomas born anywhere at this time . Based on the large Hanley population in WRY suspected Thomas was born in the north of West riding though the distance away from Sutton seemed to make it possible rather than probable.
ERYO identified no sign of Thomas' marriage or death in Driffield or adjacent parishes. Note Bmd parish records of these as yet are not on any on-line sites.
Since my last post I have determined--
1) No Hanley/Handley bmds exist in Driffield after first few decades of 1700s.-so that it looks as if the whole male side of the family moved out.
2) Can expect to see the remainder of ERY parish records -including Driffield- on find my past in Jan 2016
3) Whilst Great Driffield was a sizeable market town in 1800s the population apparently only took off once the canal was built in 1770 . Before it would have been more of a typical rural village--certainly abt 1700 and before. It did however to hold a number of annual fairs each year in the 17th century --and perhaps at these hiring took place. A 21 miles relocation of a single man aged 21 -in these circumstances- does seem more in the probable than the possible ..
4) From findmypast came across will of Robert Handley- in 1634 -which I ordered from Borthwick . Occupation given as grassman ( as far as I can see a small- holding tenant farmer ( step above labourer) who stuck to grazing animals -and had possibly a small amount of free hold land . Will and testament makes interesting reading -- wife Rosalund, children Herbert, William, John and Elizabeth.
5) Also obtained a copy of grant of administration for Johanis (John) Hanley of Great Driffield to administer estate of Eliza Hanley in 1691.
Looking at historical accounts of England in 17th century it seems logical to expect that a Husbandman ( arable tenant famer ) and a Grassman ( neither of whom had any sizeable free land ) would likely be squeezed out of farming in the next 70-100 years-and end up a hired worker.Thus the reason why the Hanley males would have left Driffield. Certainly the land enclosures and the land purchasing by the wealthy in the 17th and 18th century makes interesting reading . Worse of course was to follow the lot of the common man in the 19th century .
My thinking is, given a smallish population of Great Driffield in the 17th century. that the Robert who died 1634 and the Thomas who was born 1705 are likely directly related . So my next step is to search the parish records -when on line in FindMyPast- to see if I can establish the family line between two .
I already have a BT in which a Robert Handley was born in Great Driffield in 1675- father Johannis (John). John then may well be the one who gained administering rights to Eliza Hanley's estate in 1691 -in which case Eliza would likely be his mother.
Then to establish the likely places where Thomas's ( b Driffield 1705) siblings may have moved too . This may shed some light as to whether Thomas may have moved to Sutton upon Derwent.
Suspect one of his brothers may have moved to Beverley 11 miles away ..
Given the bmd records of Driffield and surrounding parishes seem quite complete in 17th century and that these may be with FindMyPast in Jan, I am hoping this can be done early 2016.
Keep me out of mischief anyway
Will update on findings .
Philip Hanley .
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Hi Phillip,
I'm also currently hunting down the same man you've mentioned here; Thomas Hanley, likely born in Driffield, Yorkshire. I'm a distant relative of Louise's (she replied to your post some time prior) who is also a Tasmanian. My line comes from James Handley, who emigrated/was sent to Tasmania in 1855 with his wife and children. He died young, and his wife returned to England while his children stayed and settled down under. James was the son of James (York, Yorkshire) and Ann Hannah Corney; in turn, James senior was the son of John Handley (Fulford, Yorkshire) and Mary Sanderson; John Handley was the son of William Handley (Sutton Upon Derwent) and Ann Pearson (sometimes spelt 'Freisson'); and finally, William was apparently the son of Thomas Hanley and Emma/Emmet Johnson.
I was wondering if you'd gotten any further with the Driffeld connection for Thomas Hanley, with Robert Hanley potentially being his father? I'd love to go as far back here as I can, as I'm making a family tree as a gift to my father.
Thanks in advance!