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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Suemitch on Saturday 09 June 12 02:45 BST (UK)
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I am looking for a marriage between Thomas Whittingham and Ann Elston (possibly at St Paul's,) in Birmingham. I have also not been able to find a birth for Ann Elston, said to be born in Meriden, Coventry. All help would be much appreciated! Thankyou.
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Presumably you have found them on the 1851 census can you tell us where and give us the reference.
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Hello & welcome
You need to tell us what you know about this couple.If you have them on any census can you give us the ref. no.At the moment they're not showing up anywhere.
jim
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Hi, I know that they are elusive! I have them in Melbourne, Australia in 1853, baptising their two children Frederick, born 3 Mar, 1850 in Coventry and William born 1852, in Collingwood, Victoria. There is also another daughter Fanny who I believe was born in Coventry, 1848 and left behind when they came to Australia. The only guide I have to them ever being married at all is on the baptism certificate of their two sons in Australia. I am suspecting that no marriage ever did take place. But I am also unable to find a birth for Ann in Meriden, Coventry. On her death certificate her parents are listed as Thomas Elston, solicitor and Eliza Aubud. There is a possible birth for Thomas in 1819 in Staffordshire. Where they were when the census was taking place I don't know!! I did find a possible birth for Frederic under his mother's maiden name Elston.
Any help much appreciated, Sue.
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Hi Suemitch
can you tell us when did Thomas and Ann die and where and how old they were please
do you now when they came to Australia
it all helps :)
thanks
Jackie
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According to Sue Frederick was born 1850 Coventry & William 1852 Victoria.
There's a marriage for Fanny to Abel Falconbridge/Dec.1870/cov./6d/724,this will give father's name as both censuses show her not with any family.She died 1879.
Still looking.
jim
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What I've got on the family so far,Thomas & Elizabeth were married Meriden 1823 & their children are:
Phoebe b.1824
Thomas b.1826
Charles b.1828
Frances b.1832
William b.1833
John b.1835
all Meriden.
In some cases children were christened under one name but were known by another & the only one who could be having a child in 1848 was Phoebe but I've found her in 1851,so Ann remains a mystery at the moment.Also Frances appears in 1851.
Thomas Elston looks to have died in 1839 & Elizabeth in 1849.
jim
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no luck on a marriage yet
but here the birth for Frederick that Sue ref to
Frederick Elston
Jan-Feb-Mar 1850
Coventry, Warwickshire, West Midlands
Volume 16
Page 443
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Seems odd to leave behind a 3 yo when emigrating so I don't think she's Ann's.Fanny is listed as a visitor in 1851,also Frances is listed as a visitor somewhere else so she may be hers although she would have been only 16 at the time.The family Fanny is with may be baby sitting.
jim
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Hi Jim
Im just looking at that too ( 1851 )
and thinking the same she was 3, very sad if they did
I think I might have her in the 1861 too she is a 13 year old servant
the birth sue is ref to
Fanny Elston
Jan-Feb-Mar 1848
Coventry, Warwickshire, West Midlands
Volume 16
Page 420
Elston was Anne married before or is it her maiden name ???
Jackie
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Elston was Anne married before or is it her maiden name
I'm wondering about that too.
BTW Thomas wasn't a Solicitor he was an Hostler or stableman to you & me.
jim
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I think this might be Thomas the father with son William in 1841:
HO107/1155/2/37/24.
The death in 1849 may be Thomas the son.
jim
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As a Last resort I have just been snooping around a few tree
a lot of inconsistency in them all ???
here is possibly Ann's death
Ann Whittingham
died Box Hill, Victoria
Age abt 76
parents Elston Thos and Eliza Aubud
Registered 1901 Victoria
number 4783
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Giving a birth year of 1825 which slots in with the rest of the family.
jim
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Death for Fredrick Whittingham
Age 22
Father Thomas
Registered 1872
Victoria
no 6038
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Found her!
Phoebe & Ann are one in the same,she appears in 1851 with son Frederick who has been mistranscribed as Rederin.
1851 census:
HO107/2068/315/6.
jim
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well done Jim ;D
now if we could just find a marriage ???
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So Phoebe AKA Ann born 1824 Meriden to Thomas & Elizabeth Elston,stableman.
jim
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Christening / Baptism
Phoebe Elston on the 21 Nov 1824 at Meriden
parents Thomas Elston and Elizabeth Elston
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That's her,she's the eldest of 6.
jim
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IGI throws up about 6 Thomas Elstons but none in Warks.If the 1841 census is him it just states he was born outside of Warks c.1791.
jim
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Ive been looking for a marriage for Phoebe or Anne to Thomas Whittingham
if that is his real name :-\
what name did they use and why did she change her name from Phoebe to Ann ???
I am starting to wonder did they marry ???
and have found nothing so far in uk or Aus that I can see
but it is now time for bed
so I will leave you to it
might catch you tomorrow
night Jim
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We don't know how Thomas & Phoebe/Ann fared in Australia.Maybe they did well & went up a peg or two.It wasn't that unusual for someone to reinvent themsleves.Certainly her father wasn't a Solicitor.
night night.
jim
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Hi all, I am really impressed by the level of support I am being offered by this group! Fanny is listed as the oldest child on the birth certificate of subsequent children but I have not been able to find any evidence of her ever being in Australia and she was not baptised when the first two boys were baptised. On the birth certificate of John James born 20th February 1856, in Melbourne, Thomas is listed as 40 years old, a grocer, born in Staffordshire and Ann is listed as 31, born Meriden, Warwickshire and married in Birmingham 1848. The children are listed as Fanny 7 1/4 , Frederick 6, William 4 and one son dead. Ann died in 1901, aged 76. Years in Australia 50. On the death certificate it stated husband, Thomas Whittingham believed to be dead. (But I have not been able to find his death either.)Hope this may help, Sue.
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Hi Jim, I am new to this and orignally missed your discovery on the 2nd page! Do you know how long I have been looking for this person?? Great detective work! A birth for Ann/Phoebe at last and a census entry as well. Thankyou so much for your help.
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Christening / Baptism
Phoebe Elston on the 21 Nov 1824 at Meriden
parents Thomas Elston and Elizabeth Elston
I am so impressed with your detective work too shilo! Thanks for the help.
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Hi Sue
you have a tricky tree :)
still haven't been able to find a marriage yet
do you no when they came to Oz and were ???
Jackie
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I think I've found Thomas in 1851 if you don't have it.
jim
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hello Jim
please tell
I have been looking in Oz for a death for him :)
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I think I've found Thomas in 1851 if you don't have it.
jim
Is this Thomas Whittingham? That would be great if you have found him.
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Hi Sue
you have a tricky tree :)
still haven't been able to find a marriage yet
do you no when they came to Oz and were ???
Jackie
Hi Jackie, All I know is that they were in England when Frederick was born 1850/51 and in Melbourne when William was born (1852) . Have not yet been able to find them arriving in Australia. Sue.
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Hi sue
ok there is something odd going on here
I think I have this right but I could be wrong
but it looks like Thomas Whittingham may have changed his name to John Craven
what can you tell me about theses children ???
it is just to much of a coincidence
birth no 1 ( entered twice )
Alice Sarah Craven
Registered 1863 Darley, Victoria
number 18415r
parents John Craven and Anne Elston
birth no 2 ( entered twice )
Alice Sarah Whittingham
parents Whittingham and Anne Elston
Registered 1863 Darley, Victoria
number 18415r
death
Alice Sarah Craven
died Berwick, Victoria
Age 70 born abt 1865
Parents Jno Craven and Ann Elston Whittingham
Registered 1935 Victoria
Reg no 13877
birth
John Whittingham Craven
Parents Craven and Ann Elston
Birth 1865 Victoria
Reg no 6237r
birth
Martha Craven
parents John Craven and Ann Whittingham Elston
Bacchus Marsh, Victoria
Registered 1866 Victoria
Reg no 12486
death
Martha Whittingham Craven
Age 75 born abt 1874
parents John Craven and Anne Elston
Registerd 1949 Victoria
Reg no 2893
do you know if they lived in Bacchus marsh for a while ???
Jackie
note modified post to add second birth for Alice Sarah
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note modified above post to add second birth for Alice Sarah
are there more children ???
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birth
Mary Ann Whittingham
parents Thomas Whittingham and Ann Elston
registered 1859 Clayton, Victoria
Reg no 10648
marriage
Mary Ann Whittingham Craven married Julius Jacobsohn
1883 Victoria
Reg no 1748
death
Mary Ann Jacobson
Age 71 born abt 1859
died Footscray, Victoria
Registered 1930 Victoria
Reg no 13634
Father Craven
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possible death for
John Craven
Age 48 born abt 1819
parents John and Mary Swann
Registered 1867 Victoria
Reg no 4341
possible Aka Thomas Whittingham ???
or other possibility Ann has remarried ???
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I'll have to try & digest all of that.
Thomas Whittingham,1851:
HO107/2000/448/7
His age indicates a birth year of 1824.
jim
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This Thomas Whittingham was ch.4/10/1819 to William & Elizabeth St.Mary's Ellenhall Staffs,his middle name was Addison.
All of the ages in 1851 census are out by a few years.
jim
Edit:
Appears to be a false alarm,I've found this Thomas in 1871 as a retired grocer,unless of course he came back to England.He has a 30 yo wife but no children & I can't find him in 1861.
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Hi Jim
the year of birth sounds right ???
the parents don't match what I have found for John Craven death but maybe info on parents is wrong ???
or I am wrong in thinking there is a connection and it is all a coincidence
1851 you have mentioned could you please tell me where is he living and place of birth
I think it is time for bed I don't seem to be doing something right and cannot find it :-\
thanks
Jackie
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This Thomas Whittingham was ch.4/10/1819 to William & Elizabeth St.Mary's Ellenhall Staffs,his middle name was Addison.
All of the ages in 1851 census are out by a few years.
jim
Edit:
Appears to be a false alarm,I've found this Thomas in 1871 as a retired grocer,unless of course he came back to England.He has a 30 yo wife but no children & I can't find him in 1861.
I think you have the right family & Thomas has also changed his name,escaping debts maybe.
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I just found his death :)
Thomas Addison Whittingham
Age 56 born abt 1820
Apr-May-Jun 1876
Warwick Warwickshire
Volume 6d
Page 320
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you would think there must be a reason
to have both of them changing there names
need to check the newspapers maybe there might be some answers there
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Well Done,so is this Sue's Thomas having returned to the UK?At present I can't find a marriage for him to an Anna (1871 cen.)
jim
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I cannot find a marriage either ???
I think I might have to call it a night
its midnight here and I am starting to have trouble seeing the screen ::)
let alone read a newspaper on line I don't seem to be able to make the print big enough lol
I wonder if Sue can tell us anything about John and the extra children ???
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it looks like the name changes started when they moved to
Bacchus marsh with Alice Sarah Whittingham born 1863 being the first child to have the different father etc unless I have missed one
Mary Ann Whittingham was born in Clayton in 1859 and both the parents name are correct if you don't count Ann instead of Phoebe
so did he get in some trouble between 1859 Clayton and 1863 Bacchus marsh ???
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thats enough for tonight
catch you tomorrow maybe
night Jim
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Hi
There is a Will for Thomas Addison Whittingham 4 Aug 1876
He died on the 7 April 1876 Leamington formerly of Forebidge Stafford he left £3.000
was proven at the Principal Registry by Mercy Gibbs of Stone Staffordshire Widow of the sister and George Swift of Haunchurch in the County of Stafford Farmer the Executors
Margp
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Mercy Gibbs widow the sister.Seems to mean Thomas had a sister Mercy but I can't find one.
Widow in 1871.
jim
Edit:
found her b.1816,sister of Thomas.
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Back on topic.
The children after Alice b.1863 have the father as John Craven.Alice seems a bit of a mix up as John Craven may have assumed the role of father but may not have been Alice's.It's possible Thomas Whittingham left the family by this time & eventually returned to England.I don't think either of them married anybody.
What we're short of are marriage certs. & passenger lists to prove it.
Whether Thomas' will mentions any of his children I don't know,you would have to buy a copy.It may be the only document that links the 2 Thomas' together.
jim
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Back on topic.
The children after Alice b.1863 have the father as John Craven.Alice seems a bit of a mix up as John Craven may have assumed the role of father but may not have been Alice's.It's possible Thomas Whittingham left the family by this time & eventually returned to England.I don't think either of them married anybody.
What we're short of are marriage certs. & passenger lists to prove it.
Whether Thomas' will mentions any of his children I don't know,you would have to buy a copy.It may be the only document that links the 2 Thomas' together.
jim
Hi Jim,
John Craven seems to have been a second "husband"/ Partner about 1862 and the later children seem to be his. Somehow the Whittingham name was carried on through. If Thomas went back to England and died there it would explain why I have not been able to find a death for him in Australia. Will look at getting the will to see whether this is the right Thomas Whittingham.
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Hi sue
ok there is something odd going on here
I think I have this right but I could be wrong
but it looks like Thomas Whittingham may have changed his name to John Craven
what can you tell me about theses children ???
it is just to much of a coincidence
birth no 1 ( entered twice )
Alice Sarah Craven
Registered 1863 Darley, Victoria
number 18415r
parents John Craven and Anne Elston
birth no 2 ( entered twice )
Alice Sarah Whittingham
parents Whittingham and Anne Elston
Registered 1863 Darley, Victoria
number 18415r
death
Alice Sarah Craven
died Berwick, Victoria
Age 70 born abt 1865
Parents Jno Craven and Ann Elston Whittingham
Registered 1935 Victoria
Reg no 13877
birth
John Whittingham Craven
Parents Craven and Ann Elston
Birth 1865 Victoria
Reg no 6237r
birth
Martha Craven
parents John Craven and Ann Whittingham Elston
Bacchus Marsh, Victoria
Registered 1866 Victoria
Reg no 12486
death
Martha Whittingham Craven
Age 75 born abt 1874
parents John Craven and Anne Elston
Registerd 1949 Victoria
Reg no 2893
do you know if they lived in Bacchus marsh for a while ???
Jackie
note modified post to add second birth for Alice Sarah
Yes, they lived in Bacchus Marsh and later children were born there.
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Hi
A Baptist record for
Fanny Elston
Baptised 6 Feb 1848
St John Coventry England
Mother Phoebe
Margp
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It looks like Fanny was adopted by the 1851 family where she's a visitor but she appears to have married under the Elston name.
jim
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You can get a copy of his will here:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills
Schroll down the page & download their PA1S form.A copy costs £6.00.
jim
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I think I'll have to take it back about Fanny being adopted.In 1861 she's an inmate at a girl's industrial school.These were for children considered "out of their parents control" or were guilty of minor offences.They were sent there by the Court usually for a period of 5 years.She may have been considered a "waif or stray".
jim
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Hi Jim
There are records at Birmingham Archives for Industrial Schools I have my Dads discharge records, he was at Gem St Industrial School,I wonder which Industrial School was in Leicester St.
Marg
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It was called Sir Thomas White's but according to the blurb the records are missing but if they're anywhere they will be at Coventry Archives.
jim
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I realise I'm resurrecting a long dormant thread here, but... I wonder if anyone is still researching the mysterious Ann/Phoebe Elston/Whittingham/Craven?
I've dug up a few extra bits of information (for example: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/6898518), and would love to see some of the original certificates that others on this thread seem to be in possession of.
Plus, has anyone made progress in the last 7 years?!