RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Graham47 on Wednesday 13 June 12 11:46 BST (UK)
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As a way of adding a bit of colour (and because I have a soft spot for them anyway) in the absence of a photograph I put in a family crest at the head of each of my lines.
Like a tartan, I know that few of us can lay real claim to them but what has got me puzzled is that when looking them up, some sites have a large copyright letter C across them. How can this be - unless given the many design variations for the same name these guys are just making them up! Pannett for example has several variations.
My own here by the way is for the West Riding of Yorkshire... and no family claim to it that I'm aware of :)
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Like a trademark, a coat of arms represents its owner and cannot be used for any purpose. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Coats_of_arms
Stan
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Maybe Stan, but many companies (and individuals) certainly are, along with mounted pictures, coffee cups and spoons - and very popular on American web sites of course :-[
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According to the practice if not the theory of the law in recent centuries, any person in England may with impunity take to himself any armorial bearings he pleases, except the arms of Kingston-upon-Hull [The Times 26th October 1954] Apparently if you omit the crested helm and supporters you would not be liable to legal action.
However the High Court of Chivalry has had jurisdiction over cases of misuse of arms since the 14th century. It is a civil court, with the Earl Marshal as the sole judge from 1521. The most recent case was Manchester Corporation v Manchester Palace of Varieties (21st Dec.1954), when a theatre was successfully sued for illegal display of the arms belonging to the corporation.
Stan
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The position is different in Scotland. The system of heraldry in Scotland is probably the most simple and well governed in the world. Since 1672, the Lord Lyon has had full legal control of all coats of arms. The willful use of a coat of arms not granted by the Lord Lyon can bring a jail sentence or fine today, just as it did 300 years ago. A Lyon Register that now fills some fifty volumes ensures that no person may legally use arms that have not been registered in his own name. Apparently ultimate the penalty for 'usurpation' in Scotland could be decapitation, or more likely a fine of £100 pounds a day
Stan
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The straight answer to your question is that the commercial companies who try to sell you goods bearing these coats of arms want you to be able to see them without the ability to reproduce them.
It is extremely worrying that some of them try to sell you "a crest" when they are actually offering a shield taken from a coat of arms. Unfortunately in the USA the word crest seems to be used for almost any part of a coat of arms. There is a lot less of a problem with you using a crest if this is what you intend, as the same crest will be found in many coats of arms.
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Unfortunately in the USA the word crest seems to be used for almost any part of a coat of arms.
This is not something that occurs only on the western side of the North Atlantic. That venerable paper, The Times (of London), regularly uses the word "crest" when speaking of a coat of arms or even an achievement of arms (with helm, crest, mantling, and so on).
David
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Like a tartan, I know that few of us can lay real claim to them but what has got me puzzled is that when looking them up, some sites have a large copyright letter C across them. How can this be - unless given the many design variations for the same name these guys are just making them up! Pannett for example has several variations.
The copyright actually relates to the specific image itself. If I produced my version of the Royal Arms I would retain the copyright for that piece of work but would, obviously, have no right to Arms themselves.
As a bit of an heraldic anorak/pedant I have only used Arms in my genealogical work that my ancestors were entitled to use.
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If you are entitled to use the Arms of your ancestors that's a nice touch, but does entitlement to use pass down automatically?
Sorry if that sound pedantic as well, just interested. ::)
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If you are entitled to use the Arms of your ancestors that's a nice touch, but does entitlement to use pass down automatically?
Sorry if that sound pedantic as well, just interested. ::)
Strictly no! The entitlement passes down the male line through eldest sons. It obviously is a bit more complicated than that.
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As a bit of an heraldic anorak/pedant I have only used Arms in my genealogical work that my ancestors were entitled to use.
To clarify a bit, when I produced a family tree I illustrated those branches, so entitled, with the appropriate Arms. Unfortunately, my main “gateway ancestor” had sufficient uncles, nephews and the like to ensure she was not a heraldic heiress and so I have no right to use those Arms.
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It still leaves me wondering if some of these have been 'made up' by the promoters given as I have said the many variations for the same family name and the fact they have copyright stamped over them.
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Because there is no such thing in British & Western European heraldry as a generic Coat of Arms for a particular Surname there can be multiple Arms for the same Surname (I have examples at my website (http://www.heraldry-online.org.uk/index.html) if you are interested). Generally these heraldic "bucket shops" you find in the shopping mall or online pick the earliest example they can find and sell that. They also tend to stretch the possible spellings of the name to maximise possible customers. In my own case they use Plouman, Plowman, Ploughman, Ploman, Plewman, Plemons, Plimon, Pleuman, Plemmons.
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My own avatar, I designed myself.
I took the idea from a blazon of one John Garrad, whose line became extinct in the 1600s! ;D
I don't claim to be entitled to use these arms, and only use them on Rootschat!
Those frauds who advertise coats-of-arms come up with all sorts of wird and wonderful arms for my surname - but most of them are for Garrard, and that's not my line.
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was there an Appleby family crest or coat of arms
thanks
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No!
There is no such thing as a family crest/coat-of-arms! ;D
Arms were granted to a single individual, and these arms are ONLY passed on to his offspring.
In Scotland it is still illegal to use a coat-of-arms to which you have no entitlement! :o
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The crest used in a number of Appleby coats of arms is unsurprisingly a green apple with leaves.
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The one we were wondering about was Allenby rather that Appleby - although apples and leaves does sound rather good!
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None of the standard works that I have access to have any record of an Allenby crest. This is usually a good indication that no Allenby was granted a coat of arms.
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What about this guy?
No relation though ::)
Allenby, Viscount (UK, 1919)
Creation: let. pat. 7 Oct 1919
Family name: Allenby
Arms:
Per bend Argent and Gules in the sinister three Crescents two and one of the second and in the dexter three Horses' Heads erased one and two of the first all within a Bordure azure
Crest:
Issuant out of a Crescent Gules a Demi-Lion proper
Supporters:
Dexter: a Horse reguardant Or; Sinister: a Camel reguardant Argent
Motto:
Fide Et Labore (With faith and work)
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If you are a direct descendant of Viscount Allenby, then you may be able to use the arms.
If you aren't directly related (via the male line) then you have no right to use the arms.
Read the first FAQ at http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Faq.htm
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Having read a bit of his biography, I think I'd rather go with the Apples and leaves of Appleby ;D
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The straight answer to your question is that the commercial companies who try to sell you goods bearing these coats of arms want you to be able to see them without the ability to reproduce them.
It is extremely worrying that some of them try to sell you "a crest" when they are actually offering a shield taken from a coat of arms. Unfortunately in the USA the word crest seems to be used for almost any part of a coat of arms. There is a lot less of a problem with you using a crest if this is what you intend, as the same crest will be found in many coats of arms.
A coat of arms is a combination of shield, upon which are the arms; a mantle, the feathered cloth which represents the sun cloth at the rear of a helmet, and the helm or headgear, upon which may be a crest. This is a distinguishing element which may also be found on the field of arms.
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You can see a labelled illustration of a full achievement of arms at
www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Achievement.htm
Stan
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A coat of arms is a combination of shield, upon which are the arms; a mantle, the feathered cloth which represents the sun cloth at the rear of a helmet, and the helm or headgear, upon which may be a crest. This is a distinguishing element which may also be found on the field of arms.
Actually, a "coat of arms" is the shield alone, with the colors and charges on it. An "achievement of arms" is the shield, helm, mantling, torse (or crest coronet), crest, and motto (and in some cases, coronet of rank, compartment, and supporters).
David
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I have noticed that the attribution of Crests, Coats of Arms and Origins of family names by the many commercial companies offering to provide shields etc. seems to be complete nonsense... the crest my family has used for the last 200 years at least and confirmed by the relevant books, which was derived from our french family of origin, never appears on the commercial websites which erroneously assume that PAIGE is merely an alternative of PAGE which I know is not the case. people should be warned off these scammers
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You need to read CAREFULLY what is written on those websites! ;D
Invariably it says something like "Crest associated with your surname", which is probably true, but has no proven link to your own particular family.
My own avatar (left) is taken from an extinct line, attributed to a John Garrad in the 17th Century.
It's just as likely, or unlikely, to be mine as any from a commercial site!!