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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Jenfur on Tuesday 26 June 12 15:52 BST (UK)
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Hi all. I'm new to the forums so please go easy on me ;D
I'm stuck in my family history research at my G-G Grandfather, Griffith Williams who was born around 1867 in Llanwnda. I've traced him in census records from 1891 - 1911 when he moved to Aberdare instead. Unfortunately I don't know Caernarvonshire myself at all and am not sure on how to go about working out any more information about him.
He married a Sarah, born around 1864 in Llandwrog, somewhere around 1885 and they would have been married in Caernarvonshire but not sure where exactly.
They had three children - Jane (b. October 1885 in Llandwrog), William (b. September 1888 in Llandwrog) and Sarah Ann (b. 1892 in Aberdare).
I'd rather not buy marriage certificates trying to work out which is the correct one I need and unfortunately the children's names are pretty common and don't really help narrow down which birth certificate would be the correct one to buy either.
Does anyone have any suggestions of how to find any more about this family and where I could find the correct records?
Thanks
Jen
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Hi and Welcome :)
The North Wales BMD shows two possible marriages around that time:
1884 Llanddeiniolen (to the North of their birthplaces) - Griffith Williams and Sarah Jervis (local ref CAEC6/02/E274)
1885 Caernarfon (civil marriage) - Griffith E Williams and Sarah Jones (local ref CAE/26/E145)
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/marrind.cgi
The GRO refs for these can be found on http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Hope this helps.
added - Find My Past has a full entry for the first listing - http://www.findmypast.co.uk/
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I've just checked the 1871 census and I don't think it's the Sarah Jervis - she was born Llanddeiniolen circa 1867.
PS - I'm not having much success with a suitable Sarah Jones at the moment either :-\
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The 1881 census does have a possible Sarah Ellen Jones, b. Llandwrog. Aged 16. Parents - Samuel and Jane, which would fit with her first daughter.
RG11/5564/50/16
It's a possible!
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1881 again
Griffith Williams, born Llanwnda. Aged 14. Parents Griffith and Mary in Llandwrog. A Writing Slate maker.
RG11/5563/97/8
Also
Griffith Williams, b. Llanwnda. Aged 13. Living with grandparents in Llandwrog. An Ag servant
RG11/5563/85/12
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You might have to get hold of one of the children's birth certificates to be sure of Sarah's maiden name. I've been searching baptisms for Jane Williams around that time and can't see any that fit. The family might well be non-conformist - which would suggest a civil marriage.
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Brevitas,
The 1884 Caernarvon marriage, Griffith Williams to Sarah Jervis, is one of my lot....................his father was Robert Williams. Both Sarah and Griffith were born Llanddeiniolen.
Sarah Jervis was daughter of Thomas T.Jervis and Jane Williams - Jane was my gt.grandma's sister.
G.
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Hi G :)
I'd ruled them out as Jen's ancestors because I'd noticed that the census birth place info didn't fit. The Sarah Jones/Griffith Williams marriage looks the most likely so far.
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Thanks for all your help guys.
I've ordered a birth certificate for Sarah Ann Williams, hoping it's the right one, hopefully that will confirm it is the marriage between Griffith Williams and Sarah Jones that I'm looking for.
I'll update you if the certificate helps or if I find anything else out.
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Ok, I've received Sarah Ann's birth certificate and amazingly it is the right one!
BUT mother is listed as Sarah Williams, formerly Williams - not a surname I'd expected.
Does anyone have any advice for why I can't find details of a marriage between Griffith & Sarah or how to find it?
Thanks!
Jen
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Anyone? :( I've been stuck on this side of my family for so long.
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Hi Jen
I'm at a loss unless -
* they didn't marry
* Sarah was married before and married under her first married name
* there was an error on the birth certificate
* they married outside of the area
I can't think of any other reason. It might be worth trying to get a birth cert of one of the other children.
I'll have another look for them but not sure if I can come up with anything new.
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I've rechecked the North Wales BMD:
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/marrind.cgi
and Freebmd:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
and nothing is showing for a Griffith William(s)/Sarah William(s) marriage around that time.
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There is an outside possible for this :
Mar q, 1882, Carnarvon, 11b 547
Sarah Williams and a John Jones are on the same page. It's not showing on the NW BMD so I can't cross check. There is also an Owen Parry so that might have been the pairing. Nothing showing in the established Church records either.
If this Sarah married a John Jones and he died, she would have married Griffith as Sarah Jones. Testing this idea is difficult because of all the possible John Jones deaths 1882-1885
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Working around this problem, there is a possible Sarah Williams, b. Llandwrog circa 1864 (aged 7) on the 1871 census at Llandwrog RG10/5713/20/7
Her parents are William Williams, 31, quarryman, and Sarah, 35.
Interestingly, there is a brother listed as Hugn Jones, aged 13. Also 4 other siblings, all Williams.
If you don't have access to the census, I'll transcribe the full entry for you.
added - transcribed the above:
1871 census
Pantemrys, Llandwrog
RG10/5713/20/7
William Williams, 31, quarryman
Sarah Williams, w, 35, b. Llanwnda
Hugh Jones, s, 13, b. do
Ann Williams, d, 12
John, s, 10
Sarah, d, 7
Richard, s, 4
Margaret. d. 2
all but Sarah, snr, and Hugh Jones were b. Llandwrog
This family is at Llandwrog RG9/4337/59/1 on the 1861. Son Hugh is down as a Williams!
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Hi Brevitas, thanks for your replies.
I can't see why they wouldn't have married - the 1911 census states that they have been married 27 years. I've not had any experience with ancestors in the past that didn't get married, is it likely they would have filled this number in if they weren't married?
I purchased the marriage certificate for Griffith Williams and Sarah Jones - she is listed as Spinster shouldn't have been married to John Jones previously.
Thank you for the 1871 information - I do have access to the census and have found this Sarah Williams but glad to know that this seems the most likely person to you, also. Unfortunately since I can't find the marriage information, I'm not sure whether this would be the right person or not.
I can't pinpoint which birth record would be the correct entry for Jane or William, their children, so I'm not sure if it would be possible to receive a birth certificate for either of these, unfortunately.
I hate being stuck!!
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It's very difficult - you picked an area that has the highest % of Williams in the whole of Wales :-\
I'll see if I can find anything else but I think I might be scraping the barrel on this one - 27 years from 1911 does suggest 1884.
What religion were they?
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Religion-wise I have no real knowledge but as far as I know, Jane Williams and her husband frequently went to the Ebenezer Chapel in Aberdare (I think they may have married there but can't remember off the top of my head) and I know their son went there as a child. As for her parents, I know nothing about them. We have some old postcards written by Jane and her husband and these (along with the census records) are the only reason I even know her parents names.
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Just an update - I have located the grave of Griffith & Sarah Williams so now know their dates of death but am still stuck on their births and marriage. Any ideas?
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Does anyone here have personal knowledge of the Llanwnda and Llandwrog areas? I'm just wondering where baptism and burial records are kept for these areas, how many churches are local etc?
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You could try here for info - click on the relevant Parish:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/parishes.html
This will give you a list of available records and where they are located.
Records are also now available on FindmyPast:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk
I have, however, looked through many of the available records. If married after 1837, they should appear on the GRO index (see FreeBMD) and the North Wales BMD index. Those that were most likely are given in my reply #1.
Are you sure that they married in Caernarvonshire?
Sarah could have given the wrong name on the birth cert - who was the informant? The only way to test this is to find the birth record of one of the other children.
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Hi Brevitas
Thanks for the info.
I know they should appear on the GRO index but I'm trying to go on the assumption that, for some reason, they did not marry. As you said previously, there is a Sarah Williams on the census which would tie in but no guarantee this is correct.
I would love to get a birth certificate for either of the other children but there are numerous possible ones to get as they are common names.
There's no guarantee they were married in Caernarvonshire, I'm just going with an educated guess. Griffith and Sarah were both from Llanwnda / Llandwrog and their first two children were born in Llandwrog, before the family moved to Aberdare. I can't imagine why they would have then been married elsewhere.
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Almost a year later, I've found the baptism record for Jane Williams on Find My Past which lists her parents as Sarah and Griffith - Jones and Williams.
I've now bought a marriage certificate for Sarah Williams (the same one listed as living in Pant Emrys on the 1871 census that was mentioned before) and Griffith Jones. They were married in December 1885, a few months after their daughter Jane was born.
Has anyone had any experience of the husband taking his wife's name when they were married? It wasn't something I'd even considered as a possibility before.
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Hello.
I am curently researching the death of my Great Uncle Private Christopher Edwards (53894), who died in France on November 4th 1918. This year our family will be traveling to France to be with him 100 years to the day.
Christopher was killed stood alongside two other soldiers of the 15 th Battalion, 38th Division Welsh, they were James Cole (73016) of Liverpool, and William D. Williams (72952) of Llandwrog. William is marked as being 19 when he fell, which seems to tie with the William that you mention in your search.
The three comrades still lie together, and I can share more information if desired.
I'm hoping to reach out to both the Cole and Williams families, hence the enquiry.
Oddly, my family originate, and I live in Aberdare.
Yours
Huw
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Hi Huw
Thanks for your message.
My Great Grandmother's brother was William Williams from Llandwrog but he was born in 1888 and definitely died in 1971 so not the same one, sorry.
CWGC shows that he was William David Williams, son of William John and Jane of 6 Gaugan Terrace, Groeslon, Carnarvonshire.
I hope that helps.
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Thank you Jenfur.
It is odd as the GWGC record state 6 Gaugan Terrace, Groesion, yet his military record shows Llandwrog. Not knowing the area I'm guessing that as the two villages are near each other, then he may have entered either when registering for military service. I have also tried to search Gaugan Terrace, but it does not appear to exist? Is it possible that it has been renamed or simply disappeared? Any guidance would be appreciated?
Yours
Huw
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I think what you might be looking for is Grugan Terrace as near the station here(approx postcode LL54
7TD).This address is consistent with census data,
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/247500/355500/12/101047
Regards
Roger
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Thank you Roger,
On the historic map that you point to Grugan Terrace does appear, and I assume looking at new ordinance maps it has seemingly been assimilated into the much longer Gladstone Terrace.
My regards
huw
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Possibly.In the same series on the 1977 map I think it is designated as "Rhes Grugan" which is an approximate translation?(Grugan Row?).
I can't see that name currently so perhaps it is now a part of a greater Gladstone Terrace as you say.
Regards
Roger