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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: djpegg on Friday 06 July 12 18:14 BST (UK)
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I would appreciate any comments or suggestions in my quest to find out what happened to Emma Pascoe and her father, Samuel Pascoe. Emma was born in 1856. I think it was in Breage but the baptism is not listed in the Breage parish records. Her parents were Samuel and Ann Johns. Both were born in 1818, he in Sithney and her in Breage. They were married in Breage in 1839. All three appeared on the 1861 census. Samuel was a copper miner who emigrated to Calumet, Mich, USA in 1866 or 67 with his family. Emma was on the passenger list. Samuel and Ann appeared on the 1870 US census. Emma, however, was missing. She re-appeared again in Cornwall when she married a William Pascoe (same surname) in Helston in 1873. William died in 1904 in Helston but i couldn't find a death/burial record for Emma. I would also like to know when Emma returned to Cornwall and if her parents died in the US or did they return to Cornwall later. I did see an Ann Pascoe on the 1891 census of Canada. She was listed as a 73 year old widow living in Hastings West, ONT. I wonder if Samuel died in US or Canada. Like to hear from anybody that could help solve this mystery. David
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strange that 3 of the first four children are baptised but not the later ones?
Bye
Althea
1901 Emma and William are in Sithney
1911 with daughter Phoebe living with sister Mary B Pascoe..either Emma has died in Sithney 1901 t0 1911 or she has remarried??
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Thanks Althea. Yes, it is strange that Emma seems to have been left out. I checked the Breage parish record but couldn't find her, although later information shows she was born in 1856. Her father, Samuel, was typical of the time. He was a copper miner who emigrated to the upper Michigan peninsula in the US. He did not appear to return to England but I haven't so far found a burial record. David
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There is a possible death for Samuel here: http://www.mfhn.com/houghton/rosscoll/rosshodeaths-pg2.html His son William also appears to be on there.
There is an Ann Pasco who died in Hastings, Ontario on 26 Nov 1902 at age 84. It looks like she was a widow and the information was William Pasco.
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sheeleyesq and Althea: Thanks for the information. Another source recently sent me the thread on the Houghton Cty, MI deaths. I am sure this Samuel and his son. Their ages were consistent with their birth dates. Samuel's parents had the correct names also. I don't know the cause of death but it could well be an accident in both father and son were involved. Mining has always been a dangerous occupation. I did see the death of an Ann Pasco in Canada and wondered if it was Ann Pascoe (nee Johns). The age relative to birth date is close. I guess the informant, William Pasco, was a grandson, the child of one of her daughters, maybe. Her son, William was not married at the time of his death.
I found Emma Pascoe on a New York passenger list in 1867. She traveled with her mother, and two siblings, Alfred and Jane. Emma was listed at 9 years old. That would put her birth date at 1858 instead of the 1856 that I had estimated from her later censuses. It appears the Emma returned to Cornwall after her father's death. She married a widower in Helston in 1873. He was 28 and she was only 15-17, depending on her birth date, 1856-1858. Her birth record is still a mystery. I found an Emma Jane Pascoe born in the Helston registration district in 1858 (I think Breage would have been in this district). I have no other indication her middle name was Jane but she did have a sister called Jane. This might be her. I have no record of her death. I know from local people that she lived quite a long time. Her husband died in 1904. She would have been only about 45 then. She might have remarried. i couldn't find an Emma Pascoe in the 1911 census. Once again, any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards David
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These give Samuel & William's cause of death as fever - http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/gendisx/scripts/individual.asp?UniqueID=137534
http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/gendisx/scripts/individual.asp?UniqueID=137533
So maybe it was an illness that was going around, like the flu.
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Just something odd about the births of the children in the 1881 household.
Sophia Pascoe is shown as aged 4, and Emma as aged 5.
Sophia's birth seems to have been registered in Dec quarter 1855 in Helston reg dist (which did cover Breage). So her age was somewhat out in the 1861: she would have been 5, not 4.
Alfred also seems to have his age understated by a year: he was aged 8, and so likely the birth registered in Mar quarter 1862 in Redruth reg dist (which covered Camborne), which would mean he had turned 9.
If Emma were one of the Emmas registered in Helston in Sep quarter 1858 (there were two: Emma J and Emma Jane), that would make her younger than Sophia by 3 years, and aged 2 in 1861, not older by a year and aged 5. Really the only way to sort out whether one of those births is your Emma is to see one or both certificates.
For the Pascoes in Hastings County, Ontario, in 1901, Anne Pascoe, widowed, born in England on 15 August 1818, had immigrated to Canada in 1842. She was the mother of William P Pascoe, born in 1851 in Ontario.
So these are not your Pascoes, I'm afraid.
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=54542&highlight=25
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Thanks Janey. I agree, Emma Pascoe is a bit of a mystery. I do know that she lived to an old age probably in Ashton, Cornwall, but don't know when. Her husband, William Pascoe, died in 1904 in Sithney (nr Helston). She might have re-married since she was quite a bit younger than William. In the 1911 census i see an Emma Watters living in the farm in Ashton with Burt Watters and wife Lillie. He age of 56 corresponds to a birth date of 1855. Another daughter, Nora Watters also lived in Ashton with her husband Ernest Watters. Ernest and Burt were brothers. Lillie and Nora were both daughters of Emma Pascoe. I don't understand why Emma is listed as a Watters in the 1911 census. I can't think of another Watters she could have married. Maybe it was a mistake in the census? Where would be the best place to find our when Emma died? I'd appreciate any help trying to solve the life of mysterious Emma Pascoe. By the way, her maiden name was also Pascoe and she married a Pascoe. Lots of Pascoes in Cornwall! Regards David
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David - if you can access the image for "Emma Watters" on 1911 and look at it carefully, I would do so
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Thanks Mabel. Unfortunately, I don't understand what you mean by accessing the "image" of Emma Watters. I accessed the 1911 censuses on Ancestry.com. By the way, Emma Pascoe was rumoured to be a "Bal Maiden" sometime in her life. Not surprising really, since her father was a miner. Her nickname was "Bobo". David
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Ha - not a mistake in the census, just more bumbling idiocy by Ancestry.
djpegg, you have to look at the image, not the transcription. There is a link on the record page to do that.
I was going to suggest doing the free search here instead:
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
by searching for given name Emma living in Helston with Burt Watters, but unbelievably, her surname is mistranscribed (albeit differently) there too!
There's only one remotely matching death in Helston district: Emma E Pascoe in 1930, with an approx year of birth of 1849, which is pretty far out.
Just an aside -- I've recently been dabbling in genetic genealogy, and hoping to find a match for my Cornwall family in a project that has gazillions of members with the same common surname, almost all in the US, of course. But I theorized that given the propensity of the Cornish to emigrate ("a mine is a hole anywhere in the world with a Cornishman at the bottom of it"), there was a good chance of a match there. Well, I got a match in the US, but the surname isn't the same -- but the pedigree goes back to the same location in Cornwall, and the migration trajectory went from there to the copper mining region of Michigan!
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First I would like to apologize to all of you. I have been assuming Emma Pascoe's maiden name was the same as her married name. Last week my sister found an oll scrap of paper indicating that Emma's maiden name was Meager. I was able to find a record of her birth in 1853 in Breage and her death in 1950 in Ashton/Breage. These were registration records from nearby Helston. I was unable, however, to find a baptism record for her birth in the Breage parish record. This is Church of England so I suspect the family might have been Methodists. Any idea how I could access non-conformist records?
I found her parents listed on Family Tree. They are John Meager and Elizabeth (?). Again, I couldn't find John's baptism record. The census records indicate he was born in Breage in c1825. The 1871 census shows Emma in the family headed by John and Elizabeth. There were quite a few Meagers (Magor, Meagor) in Breage at this time. A John appears in the 1841 census in two households. In one the father was Richard Meager and in the other Sidney Meager. Without parish records it is hard to tell which family John belonged to. Both Richard and Sidney appear to have been born in Breage around 1790. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Again, sorry for leading you up the wrong path earlier. Regards David
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Just to be absolutely clear -- all of the preceding proceedings about the Pascoe family that travelled to the US are completely irrelevant to the Emma you are interested in?
These things happen. Just want to be clear.
I thought you had a marriage for her as Pascoe to Pascoe ... "She married a widower in Helston in 1873. He was 28 and she was only 15-17, depending on her birth date, 1856-1858"; "She re-appeared again in Cornwall when she married a William Pascoe (same surname) in Helston in 1873."
I guess one ought to have checked that info. There's no such Pascoe-Pascoe marriage. The Emma Pascoe marriage in Helston in 1873 was to either Peter Eustace/Eustice or John Eudey. Where on earth did the Emma Pascoe + William Pascoe 1873 marriage notion come from??
Is the Emma in the 1911 household with the Watters family the one you are actually interested in?
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Marriage September quarter 1877, Helston
Emma Meager + William Pascoe
(Conveniently, the two grooms on that page are both named William Pascoe.)
That marriage certificate will give you her age and father's name.
*If* you are certain this is the person you are interested in, then you have got to start with that marriage certificate. Otherwise, you risk just following another red herring.
What is this "Family Tree" where you found her parents' names?
If this a tree someone has posted on line, then it would be a good idea to approach the tree owner and ask whether they would share their documentation for that info.
Actually, it would probably be best to start with the birth certificate of one of her children whose identity and birth details you are certain of. That will give you her birth surname for a certainty. Otherwise, again, you risk following a false trail.
That is the golden rule: always start from what you know and work backwards. Your query is unfortunately an excellent case in point of the risks of doing otherwise!
(edited to fix typo)
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Janey: Once again I apologize for my mistake in misidentifying the maiden name of Emma Pascoe. I thought it was my duty to let people know of the correction. After all, this is a forum and the information might be of interest in future searches. I was, however, quite surprised at the rather unforgiving reaction. Maybe i should have just ignored the fact. It was an honest mistake. There are many Pascoes in the Breage area and two Emmas in Breage at the about the same time. What changed my mind was the identification of Emma Pascoe (thanks to people on this forum) in the recently published 1911 census. My sister then remembered someone living in the same household in Ashton (now deceased) giving her a note with Emma's maiden name of Meager on it. Anyway, I still would appreciate anyone telling me if it is possible to access non-conformist (Methodist, in this case) parish records. The registration in Helston (covering Breage) give information on the BMD of Emma Pascoe (nee Meager) but the Breage parish record (C of E) doesn't mention the family. There is also the same BMD info from Family Search. I have seen a marriage between Emma's parents, John Meager and Elizabeth in 1849 which fits well with the birth of their first child, John, in 1850. Emma came 3 years later. I don't know the maiden name of Elizabeth (it could be Johns?) I have two candidates for the grandparents. Richard and Elizabeth/ Sidney and Grace. Richard and Elizabeth were married in 1821. Richard and Sidney were born about the same time (c1790) and both had a son called John, born c 1825. As you suggested, I should try to get hold of the 1849 marriage certificate of John and Elizabeth. Can this be obtained in the records office in Truro or Helston? I am now living in the US but my sister still lives in Cornwall. Thanks again. David
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David -- I did say "These things happen. Just want to be clear"! And yes, certainly you corrected the misinformation (which you kind of needed to if you wanted more information/help!), and true, somebody might google some day and find this thread with info about *their* Pascoes. ;) (And yes, that certainly does happen.) Slightly put out, yes, but hardly unforgiving! And I still don't understand where the info about the non-existent 1873 marriage came from.
Our fault too for not checking that info straight off, which could have raised the right questions earlier. It sounded, to me at least, like you actually *knew* things like the family's emigration to the US and so on.
Note that I didn't suggest getting the 1849 marriage certificate -- I said you need Emma's own marriage certificate to be sure of her father's name and her age. But I qualified that by saying that you really need a birth certificate for one of her children to be absolutely sure of her birth surname and her husband's name.
It helps us to know your connection with the person you are researching. If you are descended from one of her children, and that line is known for sure (the child's marriage, that child's child and his/her marriage ...), then we have a better idea of what to advise. If that is the case, and you don't have the birth certificate of the child of Emma you descend from, that really is where you need to start.
The info about Emma's birth surname sounds reliable (since it matches up with census and birth records for someone by that name), but you need confirmation in the form of certificates, and the birth certificate of a known child is where to start. (Sometimes parish baptism records can serve the purpose, but they will seldom give the mother's full name, and they don't seem to be available here for anything to do with Emma herself.)
Assumptions are never a good place to start. For instance, we don't even know that John Meager married Elizabeth Pollard in 1849; he could have married Sarah Goldsworthy, Rosina Johns or Mary Thomas. ;) This is from a search at FreeBMD which is always the best starting point:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Search for a marriage between John Meager and Elizabeth, then click on the page number of the result to see the list of brides and grooms on the page -- before 1911, the GRO index doesn't say who on the page married whom, and that particular page has four brides and four grooms. Searching later censuses for couples can indicate who married whom, but only the certificate will say for sure.
Without Emma's birth certificate, you can't be sure that she wasn't really a niece of John Meager whom the couple took in and reared as their own, just for instance. (In a case like that, the person might well have then named the 'adoptive' father as their father on their marriage certificate, so the marriage certificate alone isn't strictly adequate.)
Once you have
- a birth certificate for Emma's child showing Emma's birth surname and her husband's name
- Emma's marriage certificate showing her age and father's name
- Emma's birth certificate showing her mother's full name
then you can go back to her parents' marriage and beyond.
Yes, it's a bit of an expensive business, but it's what we all need to do to be sure we're on the right track.
There are some non-conformist baptisms at the Cornwall OPC site:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/baptisms-non-conformist/
but none for children of John Meager.
Hm, I'm still not sure where you're getting the parents' names from. The only thing I see at FamilySearch is the census record showing an Emma Meager with parents John and Rosina ... who would be the Rosina Johns in the list of brides in 1849 ... who also have son John, two years older than Emma ... This baptism for Rosina Adelaide Johns, 1831 Helston, daughter of Samuel and Sarah (probably Sarah Petherick, married 1828 Helston), fits Rosina Johns, but again, you would need the marriage certificate to be sure of her age and father's name (after confirming Emma's parents' names as outlined above):
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=1746507
It really would be best if you told us where the info you are relying on has come from, since I, at least, can't seem to replicate any of it.
edit to add: I'm in Canada so I'm not familiar with the process of getting certificates from local register offices. It's easy and convenient to order them by mail here:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
It takes a good couple of weeks to get the certificates that way, of course. Also, never ever order from third parties (like Ancestry), as you will pay double the cost for no added value.
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And another note: as you saw in 1911, it's always good to look at the original census images. In 1871, for instance, the John and Rosina Meager household is surrounded by other Meagers on a couple of pages: preceded by Richard and Honor Meager, 48 and 45, and Elizabeth Meager, 65, and unmarried daughter Elizabeth, 48, and followed by William Meager, 35. One might suspect these were John's mother and siblings.
The 1841 census has John Meager aged 13 living in Breage with parents Richard and Elizabeth and siblings who include Richard and Elizabeth, as above, although no William.
However, if you search for Meager baptisms in Breage with mother Elizabeth:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/baptisms/
none of them appears, suggesting again that they were non-conformist.
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My father remembers meeting a very elderly lady at the farm in Ashton when he visit his great uncle Burt Watters in the late 1940s. This might have been Emma
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I am related to Emma Pascoe nee Meagor . how can I help you?