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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Trevbet on Thursday 30 June 11 19:54 BST (UK)
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My G G Grandfather Samuel Kerr married Margaret Ann Millar in Joymount Pres Church Carrickfergus on the 24 June 1858.
His father William Kerr, Labourer
Her father John Millar
Witnessed by William Laughans and Margaret Nevin
Children of Samuel and Margaret:
Elizabeth Kerr 1.11.1858
James Kerr 24.9.1860
Margaret Kerr 3.10.1862
John Kerr 4.1.1865 married Margaret McNinch Hays 23.12.1892, she died between 1905 - 1911,
William Kerr 4.3.1867
Ellen Kerr 14.3.1873
Samuel Kerr 23.9.1875
I would be grateful if anyone had any information on the above and in particular Samuel Kerrs father William and when Margaret McNinch Kerr (Hays) died.
Many thanks...
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I found 3 of Samuel and Margarets children in 1901 census:
250 Middle Division, Carrickfergus
William Kerr (HOF) 30 General labourer
Maggie Kerr (Sis) 34 Weaver
Ellen Kerr (Sis) 25
Also at 5 Irish Quarter West, Carrickfergus, my Great Grandfather John Kerr with his wife Margaret, father in law William Hay, Children, Sarah (7) Elizabeth (4) Ellen (3) and Wilhilmina (1)
By1911 census I found John Kerr living with his brother and sister William and Maggie and his 7 children, living in Matchett Street, Belfast. Any info would be great regarding any of the Kerr family, many thanks..
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Hi,
Also living in Middle Division is a James Kerr and his wife Eliza. This may be Eliza Ramsey who married James in Joymount Presbyterian Church, Carrickfergus on 3 Sept 1886. His father was also Samuel. The only odd thing is that this family is given as Church of Ireland.
Regards
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Thanks, I spent a day at PRONI in Belfast and was able to get some information on the Kerrs from the records of Joymount Pres Church and found James, again I'm not sure, there appears to be lots of Kerrs.
I'm not sure how to look for deaths...very cheerful, but thanks for your help, Betty
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Hi
If you don't know the date of death for a relative, how do you go about looking for it, thanks. Betty
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Hi Betty
who is it your looking for? if you post the name and details someone on here might be able to help
regards
jim
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Is it to do with this thread (which I've now unlocked)?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=541653.0
The online civil registration index is a good place to start (goes up to 1921 for Northern Ireland counties). There are also some Irish deaths 1864-1870 on the link below-
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084
PRONI Will Extracts is often helpful as exact date of death is listed (some of the Wills are also available- www.proni/gov.uk
Belfast City Cemetery database includes several cemeteries and will list details such as date of death, date of burial, residence, plot number.
http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialrecords/
More recent (post 1921 deaths) for Northern Ireland are more difficult to find but sometimes you can find a gravestone inscription or details from a family member. Newpaper death notices and obituaries are not likely to be found online post 1900 but there are places in Northern Ireland where they can be viewed.
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Thankyou for all the information...I'm trying to get a date of death for Margaret McNinch Kerr nee Hays. She was on the 1901 census in Carrickfergus, her last child was born around 1905/6 but she didn't show on the 1911 census, her husband and children were in Belfast for that. I will just keep looking, many thanks..
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Since the date of death seems to be 1905/1911 try the civil registration index- the details there will allow you to order the death certificate.
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Hi
do you know if they were living in the Shankill area?
jim
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It was Carrickfergus in 1901- see earlier posts from other thread (I've merged the two threads now).
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Her husband John Kerr and children show on the 1911 census in Matchett Street, Belfast living with his brother and sister, William and Maggie. I'm not sure when they moved to Belfast. I'm not even sure when John Kerr died.
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Hi Betty
Matchet street is on the Shankill Road
UHF have the following death record
KERR MARGARET 1901 Shankill Belfast City, Co. Antrim
but its a pay to view site
regards
jim
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Thanks Jim, I'll check it out, Betty
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Betty i just checked City cemetery burial records thats not your Margaret, that one was 4yo
DONT PAY FOR THE RECORD ON UHF
JIM
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Thank you, I appreciate your help, Betty
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Spent a lovely afternoon at PRONI and was able to find the marriage certificate of Margaret McNinch Kerr nee Hay's parents, so I'm looking for any further information on this connection.
William Hay of Bella Hill (Carrickfergus) father Alexander Hay (labourer), married Jane Wisnom of Loughmourne (outside Carrickfergus) father John Wisnom (Farmer).
Hope someone can help me.....
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I forgot the date!
9 March 1860 at Carrickfergus First Presbyterian Church.
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The marriage is also on LDS website. Children also listed there:
Sarah Hay born 9 January 1866 Ballycarry, Co. Antrim (page 618 in civil register)
Mary Hay born 27 June 1868 Carrickfergus
Elizabeth Jane Hay born 12 April 1873 Co. Antrim
Sarah Jane Hay born 19 June 1875 Co. Antrim
Put 'wisnom' in surname box and there are quite a few possible relations-
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
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John Wisnom farmer of Carrickfergus died 11.1.1890 and left his estate to his 2 daughters Nancy & Mary Ann. Then another John Wisnom, farmer, of Carrickfergus died 22.1.1904. His will mentions sons Francis, & William, daughter Mary Ellen Auld, and his widowed sister in law. The wills can be seen on:
www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars.htm
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Many thanks.....my Dads middle name is Wisnom, and he has a real obscure story as to where it came from...at the age of 83, he will finally know the truth...he will be so disappointed as his story is more exciting!
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Family stories are always interesting- perhaps there's a grain of truth in his but it's just a bit further back in the family tree :)
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How can I find out the wherabouts of a farm in North East Division, Carrickfergus.
The area is Loughmourne, possibly 168 North East Division, and where is Lydons Park, Loughmourne.
As always, thanks to everyone for their help on this thread so far,
Betty
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Lyndons Park is beside Loughmourne. It is to the east of the modern Loughmourne Rd. You can see it on the Griffiths Valuation maps:
www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
Search on place name, Carrickfergus and then pick North East division from the options. It'll take you to an 1860s map of the area. You can overlay a modern map using the slider in the top RH corner.
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Thank you very much Elwyn!
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Looking for any information on 3 children of Samuel Kerr and Margaret Ann Millar
Elizabeth Kerr born 1.11.1858 Carrickfergus, I can't find her on 1901 census, had she married or perhaps died.
Margaret Kerr born 3.10.1862 Carrickfergus, on 1911 census @ 54 Matchett Street, living with brothers John and William and Johns children. Did she marry or does anyone know date she died.
William Kerr born 4.3.1867 Carrickfergus, @54 Matchett Street, Belfast on 1911 census. Again, did he marry or does anyone date of death.
I would appreciate any information, Betty
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I would love to hear your father's story about how he received his middle name! It may help me identify John Wisnom's (father of Jane Wisnom) father. My maiden name is Wisnom. My ancestor immigrated from Ballycarry in 1868 to San Mateo, California, USA.
This is what I have on John Wisnom: John Wisnom (b. 1807) leased land in the NE Division in 1862 at the time of the first Griffith’s Valuation. He held that property until in 1900 the property was renamed to his granddaughter, Mary McNeilly. The property was next door to John McDowell. The Will of John Wisnom late of NE DIVISION, Carrickfergus Farmer who died 5 November 1890 at same place was proved at Belfast by John M'Dowell (Junior) - son-in-law, of Loughmorne Carrickfergus Farmer the surviving Executor. Estate equally divided between daughters Nancy and Mary Ann. Nancy Wisnom and John McDowell were named Executors in original will signed on Nov 15, 1887.At the time of John's death, Nancy had passed. Unable to determine who John McDowell was married to at the time of John’s death.
Also in the NE Division during the Griffith Valuation are: Isaac Wisnom (Wisnam) (#90). b. 1810 in Duffs Hill; William Wisnom (b. 1791) leased land in the NE Division (#86) from 1862 to 1879 (In 1879, son Joseph Wisnom (b. 1829) took over the lease); John Wisnom (b 1816) leased land in the NE Division (#140) from 1862 to 1900 (. In 1900, son Frank W. Wisnom (b 1852) took over the lease on the 15 acres and managed it through 1920.); and Sarah Wisnom (?) leased land in the NE Division (#59) from 1862 to 1872. I am not sure where your ancestors property was located at this time, however, John Wisnom's #140 property is the closest to Lyndon's Park.
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Hello Wisnom 1813
I have many family members in my tree that come from the same districts outside Carrickfergus as the Kerrs and Wisnoms.
One of the branches of my tree in the area had a daughter, Sarah Jane Moore McConkey, who left her home and travelled to San Mateo to marry Hugh Ridges in 1905. Their first daughter was named Jane Wisnom Ridges. I have no knowledge of where the name Wisnom came from but it could possibly be a maiden name connected to Hugh’s family. There was at least one Ridges family living outside Carrickfergus.
I have had a look through the information I have collected and found the following that you possibly already have.
In 1856 there was a Will and Grant listed for an Alexander Wisnom of Duff’s Hill, Carrickfergus. It may have been destroyed in the 1922 fire in Dublin.
In the Kilroot graveyard there are two Wisnom headstones. One for a James Wisnom who died 23 Aug. 1831 aged 53 years and the other headstone was erected by a Capt. Samuel Wisnom in memory of his children who died in childhood from 1867 – 1887.
There is a set of books of gravestone inscription for the parishes around Carrickfergus and Larne that I found very helpful in my research.
I hope these Wisnom clues will be of some use to you and eventually lead you to information that enable you to find the names of John Wisnom’s (b. 1807) parents.
Regards
KiwiRose
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Hi,
On 3 Apr 1879 Hugh Ridges married Jane Wisnom in Glenarm Non-subscribing Presbyterian Church.
Regards
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Hi,
On 3 Apr 1879 Hugh Ridges married Jane Wisnom in Glenarm Non-subscribing Presbyterian Church.
Jane Wisnom's father was William and Hugh Ridge's father was John.
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I have record of Jane Wisnom and Hugh Ridges having three children: William Wisnom (Oct. 15, 1879 - Templecorran); John (FEb 20, 1881 - Chicago, IL); and Hugh (Aug 11, 1883). Jane passed in 1885 in Chicago, IL. It seems as though Hugh had many other wives, but had an affection for the Wisnom family as he spends the end of his life in San Mateo. I believe that someone in the family holds a photo of Hugh and Jane in the front of their Ireland home. Jane Wisnom would be a first cousin to Robert who moved to San Mateo in 1868.
Thank you aghadowey and Kingskerswell for the marriage information.
I know that James' 1813 and William's 1818 (Jane's father) father's name is James. The headstone you have identified for James d. 1831 is possibly that man. I have been unable to confirm this. This James was born in 1778. I believe he also had a son John b. abt. 1815.
Capt. Samuel (b. abt 1835, d. 1888 in Swansea, England) may be a descendant of John Wisnom a mariner identified in a Belfast News article in 1760. I believe Samuel is the son of Capt William b. 1791 - d. 1879. Nothing to definitively confirm that yet.
Do you have the name of the book that holds the gravestone inscriptions. I may be able to retrieve it in an interlibrary exchange her in the states?
Thanks KiwiRose!
Wisnom1813
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Do you have the name of the book that holds the gravestone inscriptions. I may be able to retrieve it in an interlibrary exchange her in the states?
Possibly this book- Old Families of Carrickfergus & Ballynure
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Hello Wisnom 1813
Thank you for getting in touch..
The John Wisnom you mentioned born in 1807 is my Great great Great Grandfather.
His daughter Jane married William Hay (Hays or Hayes)
Their youngest daughter Margaret McNinch Hay married John Kerr
Their son Charles Kerr married Mary McArthur
Their son John Wisnom Kerr was my father
My brother was also John Wisnom Kerr.
Betty
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Hello Wisnom1813,
The Kilroot graveyard Wisnom headstone inscriptions just happened to be among notes I had made for my own family research from the book, “Gravestones Inscriptions: Parishes of Glynn,Kilroot, Raloo & Templecorran.” It was published by the Ulster Historical Foundation.
The book mentioned by aghadowey is one of the books in the gravestone inscription series.
In case you can’t locate copies of the books, there is an alternative. I have just had a look at the Ulster Historical Foundation website. It seems that UHF has the inscriptions on their website and I found ten Wisnom results.
There were the two Wisnom’s from Kilroot, four from Old Templecorran in Forthill, three from Carrickfergus CI and one from Glynn Old. Try the link below - I hope it works. The search is free but you need to pay to view.
www.ancestryireland.com/family-records/gravestone-inscriptions/
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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My G G Grandfather Samuel Kerr married Margaret Ann Millar in Joymount Pres Church Carrickfergus on the 24 June 1858.
His father William Kerr, Labourer
Her father John Millar
Witnessed by William Laughans and Margaret Nevin
Children of Samuel and Margaret:
Elizabeth Kerr 1.11.1858
James Kerr 24.9.1860
Margaret Kerr 3.10.1862
John Kerr 4.1.1865 married Margaret McNinch Hays 23.12.1892, she died between 1905 - 1911,
William Kerr 4.3.1867
Ellen Kerr 14.3.1873
Samuel Kerr 23.9.1875
I would be grateful if anyone had any information on the above and in particular Samuel Kerrs father William and when Margaret McNinch Kerr (Hays) died.
Many thanks...
This is a bit of a long shot, but I have John Millar who married Sarah Devlin in Joymount Presbyterian church on 01 Nov 1845. They had two children Isabella b 6 Dec 1863 and Patrick b 1861. Could your Margaret Ann and my John be related?
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This is a bit of a long shot, but I have John Millar who married Sarah Devlin in Joymount Presbyterian church on 01 Nov 1845. They had two children Isabella b 6 Dec 1863 and Patrick b 1861. Could your Margaret Ann and my John be related?
John Millar's father was Thomas according to extract of marriage-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGYQ-PXJX
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"This is a bit of a long shot, but I have John Millar who married Sarah Devlin in Joymount Presbyterian church on 01 Nov 1845. They had two children Isabella b 6 Dec 1863 and Patrick b 1861. Could your Margaret Ann and my John be related?"
Both of these families are in my tree, but the Millars are not related to each other. Margaret Ann is my Great Great Grandmother.
Isabella Millar had a daughter Wilhelmina. I'm distantly related to her husband Samuel Brennan.
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Thank you aghadowey for passing on information regarding John Millar.
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"This is a bit of a long shot, but I have John Millar who married Sarah Devlin in Joymount Presbyterian church on 01 Nov 1845.
Aghadowey you may be able to clarify from Congregational Histories but Joymount Bank Reformed Presbyterian was located in the green area right of Carrickfergus Library & in front of Joymount Presbyterian (formed 1852, built 1856), with both marked on the Griffiths map available from the drop down selection. https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/ANT/Carrickfergus/JoymountPresbyterian
Did the congregations merge officially or did Joymount Bank Unitarian peter out & close??
Joymount Bank Remonstrant Presbyterian Meeting House aka Joymount Bank Unitarian [Non-Subscribing] Presbyterian Church was founded 1836.
eg your https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1845/09294/5364661.pdf by James Nixon Porter.
Belfast Street Directories (Provincial section) on PRONI and Findmypast show it with Rev Thos Smith, incumbent 1895 then vacant 1896-1900 but with ministers again 1904 under Carrickfergus & Places of Worship. Not listed 1923 and becomes unlabelled on OS 6” maps then demolished.
Joymount Presbyterian Church on the other hand still exists being built & opened 1856, with Rev. James Warwick incumbent the 1st marriage in the new building 3 Oct 1856. Apparently based on a congregation founded 1852 and under his care with first marriage 24 Dec 1853 last marriage 20 Sep 1856 at ‘North gate Street Presby Church’ all performed by him. http://www.joymount.org/joymount_history.html
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1853/09452/5424707.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1856/09512/5447645.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1856/09512/5447646.pdf
The North Gate was at the northern end of North Street, and there is a Presbyterian Church marked just west of it on the 1860 based map within the Irish Historic Towns Atlas for Carrickfergus, presume that was it.
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/assets.ria.ie/ihta/ihta-digital/anglo-norman-towns/carrickfergus/IHTA_02_Carrickfergus_Text.pdf also section 11 churches.
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Went downstairs for the book and came back upstairs with a mug of coffee ::)
From A History of Congregations in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland 1610-1982
The Presbytery appointed Mr. James Warwick (lic. Carrickfergus 1848) to initiate a new congregation in 1851. He was ordained 2 Mar.1852 "and on a site provided by Lord Donegall, the foundation stone of a new church was laid on 14 June 1855 and the building opened for worship on 21 Sept.1856."
Nothing is mentioned about merging with another church.
Under 1st Carrickfergus it says "... in 1834 and the new church was built at that time."
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Thanks Aghadowey
PRONI do not list Joymount Bank Remonstrant Presbyterian at all under Carrickfergus or any N.S.P., just the subscribing Joymount with Baptisms 1852-1907; marriages 1853-1908; various minutes 1852 onwards; building committee minutes 1853-56.
Just searched the eCat for 'Joymount' and apart from the above records only identifiable result is a 1854 lease for land for the new church.
D652/1475. Date: 27 November 1854.
Description: Counterpart Lease for 81 years. Rent £1. 0. 0. Marquis of Donegal to Samuel Davys Stuart, George Forsyth Esquires & Rev. James Warwick Carrickfergus, Co. Antrim. Land in the North side of Joymount Bank called the Deerpark, containing in breadth in fontal Joymount Bank 23'6" and in depth to Parkwall 108'9" and extending in breadth at said Parkwall 90' and northwards 391' in breadth in the rere, 98' in Town and Liberties of Carrickfergus also Map.
The eCat entry for MIC1P/332/1 also mentions North Gate:
1852-1907: Baptism register of Joymount Presbyterian Church or 2nd Carrickfergus, Carrickfergus. 1853-8: Marriage register of Joymount Presbyterian Church or 2nd Carrickfergus, Carrickfergus (sometimes referred to as North Gate Street). etc
Joymount Bank Remonstrant/Unitarian must have closed c.1922, is listed in 1912 Province of Ulster Directory as 'Unitarian Church, Joymount Bank, Rev. John M'Cleery. 1920 listed but no minister's name. 1923 Unlisted.
1912: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=ire%2fbelfastdirectories%2fd200--068%2f0831
1920: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=ire%2fbelfastdirectories%2fd200--004%2f0865
1923: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=ire%2fbelfastdirectories%2fd200--005%2f0777
That is supported by the PRONI Valuation Revision Books is scored out with a 1923 date VAL/12/B/7/7C (1916-29)
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_Val12b/Large%20JPeg/IRELBEL1D_014R/IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-7-7C/IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-7-7C_M_00110.jpg
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_Val12b/Large%20JPeg/IRELBEL1D_014R/IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-7-7C/IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-7-7C_M_00227.jpg
and the previous book VAL/12/B/7/7B (1908-15) the Earl of Shaftsbury was sub-leasing part of it for Torrens Sons & Bristor Imports from 1909/10.
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_Val12b/Large%20JPeg/IRELBEL1D_014R/IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-7-7B/IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-7-7B_M_00112.jpg
John
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Hi, I'm new to this site and this is my first post. I believe I'm the great-grandson of Jane Wisnom who had 3 sons: Hugh, John, and William. I was told them my grandfather's name was John Winston Ridges, but after search FamilySearch.org and reading some of these posts, I'm thinking his name may have been: John Wisnom Ridges. I'm appreciate any feedback. Also I have a photo of a Hugh Ridges could be his brother.
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Hello ChicagoJax,
Welcome to Rootschat.
I believe that you are correct in the names of Jane Wisnom’s 3 sons.
It is common amongst Irish families to include the mother’s surname as a middle name for at least one of the children so your grandfather may well have been called John Wisnom Ridges. They also commonly name their sons after the father and both grandfathers.
Hugh Ridges and Jane Wisnom married on 3 April 1879 in Glenarm, Antrim. The marriage was registered in Larne.
The image of the marriage record has Hugh as a farmer as was his father, John Ridges. You can view the marriage image at the free site irishgenealogy.ie
After the birth of their first son William, they emigrated to Illinois, USA.
My connection with this family is through Sarah Jane the wife of their Illinois born son, also a Hugh. Sarah Jane and Hugh married in San Mateo, California in 1905. They brought their family up in the San Mateo area.
I hope the above information helps you with your research.
Regards,
KiwiRose.
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Hugh Ridges and Jane Wisnom married on 3 April 1879 in Glenarm, Antrim. The marriage was registered in Larne.
The image of the marriage record has Hugh as a farmer as was his father, John Ridges. You can view the marriage image at the free site irishgenealogy.ie
After the birth of their first son William, they emigrated to Illinois, USA.
Linking the marriage and birth-
At Glenarm Presbyterian Church (3 April 1879).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11065/8048279.pdf
Hugh living at North West Ballycarry, Jane living at Carnbrock. Note one witness was a John Wisnom.
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/belfast-lower/templecorran/templecorran/ballycarry-north-west/
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/belfast-lower/templecorran/templecorran/carnbrock/
Son William Wisnom Ridges born 15 October 1879.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02900/2062480.pdf