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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Wigtownshire => Topic started by: PlayaCofi on Saturday 21 July 12 11:07 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find the parents and siblings of James McKerlie, b. 1808 at Campbell's Croft, Old Luce, Wigtownshire. James married Annie Reid and my husband decends from their son James, b. 1839.
Other sites list his father as George McKerlie, b. 1762 - d.1845 but they do not provide any citations.
The Wigtown Press cites this:
M'KERLIE, George - D2/9/1844 - At Whithorn, on the 2d inst., George M'Kerlie, Esq., for 52 years resident in Jamaica, aged 82 years. Born 1762.
St. Ninions cites:
Stone lying against the south dyke...in poor condition...Erected by Barbara SHARI in Whithorn in memory of George McKERLIE her Uncle who died in 1841 aged 82yrs.
The only George McKerlie I can find in a scottish census is 1841, age 79 living with 2 much younger people (20 & 35) no relation.
Jamacian records also indicate that George McKerlie and Peter McKie were partners in a small plantation in St. Catherine's Parish in the 1820's to 1830's.
This could also be inaccurate information and George and Agnes may not be James's parents after all. Some people also say he was born in Old Luce, other say Ireland.
My problem is that I cannot find anything (citations) linking them together.
I also would like information on George's family, that is if it is available.
Any and all help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Karen
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Hi Karen
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Were there two George McKerlies who died early 1840s? You mention:
St. Ninions cites:
Stone lying against the south dyke...in poor condition...Erected by Barbara SHARI in Whithorn in memory of George McKERLIE her Uncle who died in 1841 aged 82yrs.
There also looks to be the second George McKerlie that you have found, who resided for a long time in Jamaica; mention of his death in the Wigtownshire Press in 1844. There is also a Wills & Testament entry for this George from 1844 on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Given the locality and timings, maybe other researchers are getting confused between both George Mckerlies?
What details, if any, were included on James McKerlie's death registration?
Monica
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No.10 on this link gives a good summary of the life of James McKerlie www.btinternet.com/~fraser.hamilton2/fptn04.htm
Either his death in 1893 or his second marriage to Martha Love Horner in 1883 might provide more clues on his parents, as details of his parents' names should be recorded on both/either registration (I would go first for his re-marriage certificate as this will include info he himself gave):
Headstone in Glenluce Churchyard
Erected by James McKerlie,Whitecairn.
In memory of Anne Reid,his wife
who died 27May1882 age 75
Also his children Annie died 16Apr1854 age 17
Hugh died 17Oct1855 age 24
Also his grand-daughter Elizabeth McKerlie who died 3Jan1856 age 1 year
Also the above James McKerlie who died at Clashmaew,Inch 11Aug1893 age 86.
James McKerlie did not leave a will.His wife Martha registered his death.
www.btinternet.com/~fraser.hamilton2/fptn04.htm
See also from his census summary what the confusion is regarding a birth place (Ireland v. Wigtownshire).
Monica
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Monica,
I did notice a few days ago the inconsistancy of "place of birth" on the census. Thanks to your email I have found out that the George McKerlie that died Sept. 2, 1944 is NOT the George McKerlie that I have been looking for.
But the good news is that I can clear up the issue of the 2 George McKerlie's (thanks to Monica's suggestion of going to Scotlandspeople.
Let's start with the George McKerlie mentioned about. While thinking he was my husbands ancestor I started researching a 1841 census that showed he was then 79 years old.
I did find George McKerlie on a 1841 census. He was living with:
Barbara Sharp b. 1806 age 35
Mary McCubbin b. 1821 age 20
Yesterday, after hours of searching for a definitive conclusion whether George and Agnes were were indeed James's parents b. 1808 I decided to try another angle. I decided to look into the younger persons on the census.
This is where it gets a little confusing.
I decided to start with Mary McCubbin. It turns out that she was the daughter of John McCubbin b. 1799 and Elizabeth Beggs b. 1797. John McCubbin also had a son named William b. 1823. This William was married to Margaret McKie b. 1821 who was the daughter of Peter McKie, b. 1780 George's business partner in Jamaica. (I have the Jamaica files from St. Catherine's Parish in Jamaica to back that up.)
So I kinda now could connect George McKerlie b. 1762 via the McKie's to the George mentioned in the 1841 census.
But again this is not my George. In Scotlandspeople I also found the death notice for my George. He died on June 9th, 1944. One line in the parish book
I always also do a story search on who I am reseaching. While doing that I found a copy of the original Parish death record that someone posted for William McCubbin.
Low and behold, the name under it was our James McKerlie, b.1808 and the record shows his parents were indeed George McKerlie and Agnes McDowell. Not the George McKerlie that had the Jamaica connection.
The information in the Parish Book for James's death is as follows:
Death Notice of James McKerlie
1893 Deaths in the Parish if Inch in the County of Wigtown
James Mckerlie
Retired Farmer
Married to Martha Horner (previously to Annie Reid)
Died 11 Aug 1893, 7th Hour 15 min, PM
Place – Clashmahew
86 Years
Father – George McKerlie, Farmer, Retired
Mother – Agnes McKerlie, M.S. McDowall
Cause of Death – Hypertrophy to the Prostate Gland 10 years, Chronic Cystitis 10 years, exhaustion 4 months
As certified by John A. Anderson, MD
Present – Martha Horner
Registar
John Banks
August 14th, 1893
I will be posting the original on Ancestry when I upload the family tree.
So indeed I am still trying to find George and Agnes, James's parents
I still am trying to find George and Agnes's birthdates, parents etc.
This morning I downloaded the 1797 Horse Tax Rolls for Wigtownshire County. There are numerous different spellings for McKerlie's as well as McDowalls so that will be my goal for today.
Karen
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I forgot to mention a few things about George's will that may be helpful to people researching his family.
George died without issue. He left his estate to the following:
Nephews:
George McKerlie Sharp, residings in Ulls (?) County, Ireland
George McKerlie Elliott, Gardener at Ripley Castle, Yorkshire, England
Niece: Barbara Sharp (may be married to John Broadfoot Jr., it wasn't quite clear
He also mentions the daughters of John Broadfoot Sr Merchant of Whithorn:
Jane
Isabella
Agnes
Maryann
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Big progress for you by the sounds of it!
So there were two George's then?!
The George McKerlie, Independent, who shows with a Barbara Sharp and Mary McCubbin in 1841 is not your (husband's) ancenstor? This is the George with the Jamaican connenctions?
Have you seen the other George on the 1841 census? Age showing as 70, but 1841 census ages are always tricky:
Robert MCMASTER, 28, Ag Lab
Elizabeth MCMASTER, 27
George MCKERLY, 70, Ag Lab, Ireland
John MCKERLY, 15, Ag Lab
Agnes MURHEAD, 15, female servant
Agnes MATHEWS, 3
Address: Caldons, Stoneykirk
The death details are always great to confirm. By the way, these details are from the statutory registers (not parish registers). The 1883 marriage will also reconfirm his parents' details. Interesting to see the shock of the family's reaction from the Kirk Session minutes to his marriage from his son James to a 19 year old girl in 1883...
Monica :)
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Given how long the McKerlie are referenced as living at Campbell Croft, how great it must be that there is a photo of it from here www.btinternet.com/~fraser.hamilton2/indexfpf.htm
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I have that Monica, Thanks.
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Monica,
You may have found something! I have not seen this census yet but I have not gotten off the spelling "McKerlie" so until I did.....
That was my chore for today. Going through the name variations of McKerlie's on the 1797 Horse Taxes Roll.
I got waylaid. I live in the Spanish Virgin Islands on an island called Vieques and my downstairs is only 400 SF. I had files on the floor in certain piles, on the dining table, on the kitchen counter...Get my drift? It was time to organize, I was going crazy loosing-mispacing files.
That done now, I can hop onto this.
Thanks a bunch
Big progress for you by the sounds of it!
So there were two George's then?!
The George McKerlie, Independent, who shows with a Barbara Sharp and Mary McCubbin in 1841 is not your (husband's) ancenstor? This is the George with the Jamaican connenctions?
Have you seen the other George on the 1841 census? Age showing as 70, but 1841 census ages are always tricky:
Robert MCMASTER, 28, Ag Lab
Elizabeth MCMASTER, 27
George MCKERLY, 70, Ag Lab, Ireland
John MCKERLY, 15, Ag Lab
Agnes MURHEAD, 15, female servant
Agnes MATHEWS, 3
Address: Caldons, Stoneykirk
The death details are always great to confirm. By the way, these details are from the statutory registers (not parish registers). The 1883 marriage will also reconfirm his parents' details. Interesting to see the shock of the family's reaction from the Kirk Session minutes to his marriage from his son James to a 19 year old girl in 1883...
Monica :)
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Monica,
Yes, the independent is the "other" George. Interestingly I searched for "George McKerly" on Ancestry in the 1841 census and only came up with the "other" George.
I then went to Robert Mcmaster and found it.
What website did you use if you found it so easily?
Karen
Big progress for you by the sounds of it!
So there were two George's then?!
The George McKerlie, Independent, who shows with a Barbara Sharp and Mary McCubbin in 1841 is not your (husband's) ancenstor? This is the George with the Jamaican connenctions?
Have you seen the other George on the 1841 census? Age showing as 70, but 1841 census ages are always tricky:
Robert MCMASTER, 28, Ag Lab
Elizabeth MCMASTER, 27
George MCKERLY, 70, Ag Lab, Ireland
John MCKERLY, 15, Ag Lab
Agnes MURHEAD, 15, female servant
Agnes MATHEWS, 3
Address: Caldons, Stoneykirk
The death details are always great to confirm. By the way, these details are from the statutory registers (not parish registers). The 1883 marriage will also reconfirm his parents' details. Interesting to see the shock of the family's reaction from the Kirk Session minutes to his marriage from his son James to a 19 year old girl in 1883...
Monica :)
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I looked here www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl - particularly good for the earlier censuses and most accurate as manned by volunteers (in my opinion ::)).
Monica
PS: Anywhere you can, use wildcard symbols to pick up on spelling variations. SP, A/try and FreeCen all use the '*' symbol to replace letters.
Monica
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Agnes McKerlie (born on 27 Nov 1804 in Dundinnie, Leswalt Parish?) who married an Andrew Matthews in 1823, Inch Wigtownshire is possibly a sister to your James - see www.btinternet.com/~fraser.hamilton2/afsg21.htm See also http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.wig.general/792/mb.ashx
If you look on FreeCen, you will see Agnes McCarlie, wife of Andrew Marshall showing in Church Street, Old Luce for 1841. Your James and wife Ann also show as McCarlie in 1841 (the joy of spelling variations!).
Monica
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As for Agnes.
I did run across her in someone's family tree the other day and it says that my George and Agnes are her parents. As you said, born in Leswalt.
The tree says that she was born 27 Nov. 1804. It also cites 2 citations for that and neither match what they entered in the tree (birthdate above) The first citation is a 1851 census for Burton Parish, Cheshire, Englad where she lives with her husband Andrew and children. All it says for where she was born was Scotland (no leswalt) in about 1805 and her age was 46. To me that is not a valid citation.
The second citation attached is from a 1881 Scotland Census from Sorbie Parish. It states that she was born in Sorbie and at the age of the census she was 70 and they estimated birth year was about 1811. Again that is not a valid citation in my mind. BUT, it seems everyone on Ancestry is. By the way I have no clue where they came up with the birthdate. There was no citation.
BUT...on the 1841 census that George is in does mention a 3 year old and low and behold that fits Agnes's daugter Anges to the T.
Also on the census are 2 other names of interest. The first is McMaster. I have run across McMaster's marring into both the McDowells and McKerlies in the past but I cannot put my fingers on it right now.
The second is John McKerley age 15.
Another family tree has posted on Ancestry saying that George and Agnes had a son John McCarlie b. about 1802 born in Leswalt. He married Janet Reid on 26 Aug 1823 (no citation) and the tree said they had 9 children. The 1941 census says he was 39 and his year of birth was about 1802. The 1861 census says he was 49 again his birth year about 1802. The tree says he died in 1863. The only citations in the wholw tree are these 2 census's. BUT if I can piece it together that would seem conducive with the 15 year old John McKerley on the census possibly being the oldest son of this John.
BUT yet again, I am not the sort of person that takes others words without legitimate citations. So this is another thing on my list. I may go into Scotlandspeople.uk and see what I can find there.
My problem is what to tackle first. George, Agnes, James b. 1802, Agnes b. 1804 or what I wanted to do the first thing this morning at about 5:30 am when I sat down at this computer, the 1797 Horse tax roll. It is 5:42 pm now and I can tell you after 12 hours at this computer, I am DONE for the day.
Sorry for any spelling or mistakes. I am tired.
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Does anyone know if there was a 1831 Scotland census?
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Trotter, in "Galloway Gossip" 1901, gives this name as MacArley, pronounced MaKerlie and spelled Kerlie, "once they got the gentility".
This book is a must for folk with Galloway connections, very entertaining.
Skoosh.
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I now have close to 45 different spellings for mcKerlie.
I went to all of my online booksellers and one of them had this:
Galloway Gossip Sixty Years Ago; Being a Series of Articles Illustrative of the Manners, Customs, and Peculiarities of the Aboriginal Picts of Galloway
by Maria Trotter
But that does not seem to to be the same. Maybe his wife's or daughter?
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Hi Karen
Your earlier question about a possible 1831 census...unfortunately, the earliest census for genealogical purposes is the 1841 census. There are a few local censuses in the UK pre 1841 where you may find a little bit of info, but in the main, the earlier censuses, introduced purely for statistical purposes, are not much help with genealogy research.
I think you will find many people here on RC in complete agreement about the need to verify your research/sources every step of the way as it is so easy to go off track at various key points of research ;) Having said that, I do think if you are fortunate enough to find online family trees on your lines (boo for me, I feel like a lonely soul, never having found anything on my lot online :'( ;D) they can provide a good starting point when looking for further info. Out of interest, have you ever liaised with other researchers on these lines to ask how they have got their info or made their connections?
In respect of confirmation of possible siblings for James. We have Agnes married to an Andrew Mathews and also John married to a Janet Reid? Is there any mention on trees as to when/where Agnes may have died? Similarly with John? Scottish death certs, as you have found, are very informative (also quick and easy, and economical to get to view for this period, through SP).
Monica
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Good afternoon Monica,
Something tells me that if I could find a census prior to the 1841 I may be able to solve my problems, but alas.....
This morning I worked for 4-5 hours strictly on agnes. I started with Scotspeople and concentrated fom 1760- 1804 for births and marriage's. The reason I started with 1760 is because a few trees state that both of their birthdays were 1762 even though I knew there was little chance that Agnes would have a 3 children in her 50's. Or at least I did not think so.
So I found 3 possible birth records for an Agnes in that time period.
30 April 1772, Father Patrick McDowall, Stranraer Parish
04 April 1778, Father James McDowell, Mother Helen McCoskrie, Stranaer Parish
15 Oct 1784, Father William McDowell, Mother Agnes McClurg, Kirkmaiden, Wig.
Those birthdates to me make more sense for the age of a mother from 1800-1808.
There were 4 marriages for an Agnes McDowell during that period but none to a George McDowell.
As far as death goes I checked on Scotspeople and hit a dead end. So my only option is to start looking into Ireland since John had that as his place of birth on the 1841 census. I think since I do not have a county though, I will only concentrate on the coastal counties across the sea from Wigtownshire.
I will take your advice on checking with other researchers, thanks for the tip.
My next move is going to try to piece together this James b. 1802 and Agnes b. 1802. I will try Scotspeople first.
I was lucky with the McKerlies tree. My husbands cousin Ellen traveled from California to Old Luce back in the early 70's. She passed away in 2001 and when my husband started a webpage for the Vyborny-McKerlie family her kids passed it on to him. She researched everything prior to the internet and handtyped it.
My husbands grandfather (and hers) was Alexander who was the son of James b. 1839 who was the son of James 1808.
Alexander married Roxie Doran in 1903. That was a little tricker to figure out but I have it back to 1825 in Franklin County, Va. and a lead possibly taking it back to the further generation in 1690 but I need to contact the Library of Virginia to ask them to please, please pull the file and send me a copy. At least I have the box number and file number.
Ah and then the Vyborny's. My husband already had them back to 1790 but try building a tree on Ancestry and typing all of those Czech names in, not fun. There is a Czech Vyborny site online that I can continue to link our family to but I am not in a rush to start typing those names again :(
So as to MY family? One was easy, there was already a book written on my mothers family (Duffields from England who immigrated to the US in 1682) so I have not bothered to build a tree since it is all over Ancestry.
My fathers is another story. I have made it back to my great grandfather who arrived in the US from Italy, Giovanni Senise in 1888 and hit a brick wall. So I totally understand.
What is the family information that you hit a brick wall on. Maybe someone else looking at it fresh may help. Trust me, I am getting burnt out on George and Agnes and want to pull my hair out.
Are you in Scotland?
Karen
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"Galloway Gossip" ? that appears to be the book. My copy has the title page as being The Southern Albanach 80 Years Ago, by R. De Bruce Trotter, printer the Courier & Herald, Dumfries, with an intro' by Crocket.
I read it every Winter, a tonic against the dark days.
Skoosh.
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The 60 years threw me off. I will order a copy, thanks.
Karen
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I went ahead and ordered the 60 year (with shipping $30). I did find a hardback 80 year but they wanted $73.85 + shipping.
By the way I found out that the publisher, Nabu Press, is going to have an iPad app later this summer where you can download the book. When their app site is up and running it will be called Biblioboard.
K
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You'll enjoy it!
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Update and I need some advice please.
I confirmed through Scotspeople that indeed Both John and Agnes are the children of George and Martha but the spelling was McCarlie. Interestingly enough though the orginal McKerlie son that started all of this James b. 1808 was not in the birth records but I do have his death record.
I ordered both records and then went off and running trying to find more information on Agnes. I just assumed when I went back to Scotspeople it would be in my cart and I could check out. Nope, nothing there.
They are in my timeline and I do have them saved to my favorites. Does anyone know how I can re-order them without having to pay the 5 credits to pull them up again?
Secondly, I think it is time for me to hit the Ireland boards for George and Agnes, Can anyone put me in the right direction?
Thanks.
PS I hit a brick wall for Agnes McCarlie after the 1851 British Census. I guess the next step is looking at her kids to see if she may be mentioned there :-\
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Hi Karen
Once you have viewed a search results page or an actual image, this is saved for you to view again at any time. If you look at the very top of the page, you have a number of buttons:
Viewed Images - Previous Searches - Timeline - Shopping Basket - My Details - Logout
If you have viewed an actual image, you will always find it indexed under 'Viewed Images'. Click on that link for the index, then for each entry in this section, just click on 'View' to bring up the image again on your screen. (You might also want to save key images elsewhere on your computer, I think you mention that have already done this?).
As above, to view previous search pages that you have already paid 1 unit to carry out and view, just click on the 'Previous Searches' button.
Regarding Agnes McKerlie/Matthew, I couldn't find a death entry on Scotlands People post 1855. She may not have died in Scotland (they were in England from what you have found in 1851) or she may have died before the start of official registration, pre 1855. I did the search for her as M*c*rl* for the maiden name to try and pick up on variants.
Monica
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Hi i see you are researching McKerlie its interesting you came across a George McKerlie ELLIOTT a gardener at ripley castle he is my x 2 great uncle, i have an extract from the elliott family bible from my x2 g grandfather Alexander Elliott , Georges brother, there was i think by memory 16 children ,George and William the 2 eldest had a different mother than the rest a Barbra McKie ? this name is written down in the extract. i will check georges b/date ..All the Elliotts where gardeners Georges father Robert Elliott was head gardener at castle craig peebleshire scotland to the Carmicheal /Gibson family robert was born Crailing Parish roxburghshire scottish borders 1776, second wife was isabella dickson.Thomas Carmichael Elliott another brother to george was head gardener to the Earl of illchester Melbury osmond/sampford. hes buried there in front of the church door...any info on barbra Mckie wouyld be good if i get a reply i can post marriage dates for barbra and robert from extract im not at home right now ..I hope i helped a little with the mystery as it continues ..good luck in your research Brett .J.Elliott
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Hi how's it going I believe I can help u its my grandfather's dad
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Who was your Grandfather?
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James