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Dear All
You have done so staggeringly well, helping me with the mysterious Avica that I feel compelled to put my other big mystery family into your hands for help and advice.
Joseph Dyson Lister was born in 1815 and baptised in 1822 as an independent zionist in Wakefield, Yorkshire, the son of Richard Lister and Betty.
I have found JDL in the 1881 census. He was living at 90 Grafton Street in Bradford, Yorks with daughter and 2 grand-daughters. RG11/4461/16/24
He is described as married but his wife is not there.
I would like to know whether JDL was in Grafton Street in 1871, 1861 or 1851 and wonder if anyone has access to any of these returns please.
Thanks very much
Louise
PS Background notes to follow - I can't fit it all in one post
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Hi
For ease of reading these are the posts contained in the attachment Re Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist
23 August 05
Dear All You have done so staggeringly well, helping me with the mysterious Avica that I feel compelled to put my other big mystery family into your hands for help and advice.
Joseph Dyson Lister was born in 1815 and baptised in 1822 as an independent zionist in Wakefield, Yorkshire, the son of Richard Lister and Betty.
I have found JDL in the 1881 census. He was living at 90 Grafton Street in Bradford, Yorks with daughter and 2 grand-daughters. RG11/4461/16/24
He is described as married but his wife is not there.
I would like to know whether JDL was in Grafton Street in 1871, 1861 or 1851 and wonder if anyone has access to any of these returns please.
Thanks very much
Louise
PS Background notes to follow - I can't fit it all in one post
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23 August 05
BACKGROUND NOTES
Some of this story appears in the thread "The Wilson family of Scarborough".
JDL is the father of Eliza Lister. My earliest record of her is when she married Thomas Vipond in 1872.They had a daughter, Ellen Vipond in 1873. Eliza then had a son, Walter Doughty Vipond born in 1879 3rd qrt in Bradford and died in 1882 1st qrt in Bradford. (The father's name is blank on the birth certificate. I assume Thomas Vipond had died because she is described as Eliza Vipond, a widow at the time of her second marriage. I don’t know whether Thomas Vipond was Walter's father.) Eliza, Ellen and Walter are to be found on the 1881 census at 26 Bank, Eccleshill, Bradford with Samuel Benn (the enumerator has written Been) and her third child, John W Vipond. RG11/4477/19/32Samuel and Eliza were not married and interestingly Samuel is described on the census as "Master" rather than "Head" of the house. You won’t see this on the IGI because they have decided the household is two separate ones. John W Vipond was just a baby and registered a week later, born Feb. I ordered and received a copy of his birth certificate in the 1980s but it was a transcription of the entry and not a photocopy. It is written as "John William Benn " but I am sure the original will have said Wilson. On his birth certificate his mother has given her name as Eliza Benn nee Lister but I am afraid that was a bit of a fantasy on her part as they were never married. Some time soon after the 1881 census baby John W Benn left the family home. It may have happened at the same time as the death of his older brother Walter in 1882 1st qrt in Bradford. In 1884, Eliza married John Long a furniture carrier and haulier, at Bolton Parish Church, Bradford, Yorks on Nov 9th 1884, aged now 30, they are both described as widowed. Eliza's father is given as Joseph Dyson Lister, I think deceased from memory. (Samuel Benn must have either died or fallen out of favour. I have not been able to discover what happened to him although there is an 1891 census in Windhill, Shipley that just might have been him, living just yards from Eliza's grocer shop. I shall want to find him though because he is my GGGGrandfather.) Eliza and John Long then had a son named Joseph who appears with them on the 1891 census at 9 Seal Street Bradford, along with Ellen Vipond who at 18 is a hat-maker however ten year old John Wilson Benn has now disappeared. I turned up in local Bradford Directories, mention of Eliza Long running a grocers shop for many years on Hall Lane in Windhill and have even had old photographs sent to me of the shop. Researchers think her son Joe took the shop over and was certainly there in the 1930s. I don’t know what happened to her after that. I don’t know if she ever saw baby John Wilson Benn again. John Wilson Benn would never talk about it he described himself as a foundling when asked. John W Benn does not appear again on any census that I have been able to find, however, by 1903 he was living in Scarborough as a soldier where he married Daisy Kate Hilton, they are my great-grandparents. John gives his father as Samuel Benn, weaving overlocker, deceased. I don’t really need to know any more about John Wilson Benn but do want to discover where he was in 1891 and 1901 on the census (the latter in the army somewhere presumably) and to find out who it was that took him in. I can tell you that he and Daisy Kate went off soldiering after they got married and had several children in various exotic places round the world, Africa, Singapore, Dublin and even Aldershot! .I do however want to get to the bottom of Eliza Lister. When did she die? When was she born? Who was her mother? What happened to her? I have not been able to find Eliza's birth anywhere, nor a christening for her. Her age fluctuates, she was married in 1872, six months pregnant and claiming to be 21 but I think she may have been more like 16. On subsequent censuses and events her age is inconsistent so I don’t know for sure when she was born but it was between 1850 and 1856, all records say she was born in Bradford. However, if her father was born in Wakefield then it is possible she was born there too but moved so young that they didn’t subsequently recall. It is also possible that she too was a Independent Zionist so her baptism might not have been picked up on the IGI, but I have to say she married twice in a church of England church. My hope is that by finding JDL in earlier census returns I might find his wife who I don’t currently know or Eliza with him. I really want to start pushing backwards into time, having spent about twenty years piecing together the vagaries thus far. So, if you can help with any census lookups for Joseph Dyson Lister I will be delighted
Regards and best wishes
Louise
23 August 05
1871 census RG10 4468 folio 4040 (not sure of street name I'll go back and look again) Horton Yorkshire,
Joseph D Lister 56, Wakefield, Yorkshire, Head Married Wool warp dealer
Elizabeth Lister 59 Scotland Wife Married
William Lister 21 Bradford, Yorkshire, Son Wool sorter
Alcae Lister 19 Bradford, Yorkshire Daughter Worsted weaver
Eliza Lister 15 Bradford Yorkshire Daughter
Mary Lister 10 Bingley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Regards
Valda
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23 August 05
Still don't think I've cracked the name of the street it looks like Edmbro but I can't see how that is right - anyway in the process of going to other pages to try and decipher the writing I noticed at the top of the page in front at 32 in this street, same folio number
David Lister 25 Timble Great Head Married Wholesale grocer
Margaret C Lister 25 Palnackie? Wife Married
Matilda F Lister 17 Timble Great Sister
Alice D C Lister 2 mth Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
However I think they are a red herring as they are back in Great Timble with different parents in 1861, so I've only included them in case someone else spots them.
1861 census RG9 3219 folio 134
New Houses Bingley Yorkshire Joseph Dyson Lister 47 Bradford, Yorkshire, Head Married Wool sorter
Elizabeth Lister 49 Scotland Wife Married
Kezia Lister 17 Bradford, Scotland Daughter Worsted weaver
Henery Lister 16 Bradford, Scotland Son Worsted mechanic
William Lister 11 Bradford, Scotland Son
Alice Lister 9 Bradford, Scotland Daughter
Eliza Lister 5 Bradford, Scotland Daughter
which solves Alcae of 1871
Regards
Valda
23 August 05
This may be Elizabeth's death
LISTER, Elizabeth Record Type Deaths Age at death 63 Quarter June Year 1874 District Bradford County West Riding of Yorkshire Volume 9b Page 161
I can't find her in 1881 or 1891, though of course she could be in Scotland in 1881. I presume their marriage may be in Scotland? By the look of the censuses Eliza just made 16 (if that) at the time of her marriage. As a girl it was legal for her to marry from the age of 12 onwards, but under 21, if she admitted it she would need parental consent.
Regards
Valda
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23 August 05 1739
The Samuel Benn in Horton, a plumber with a large family in 1871, is not yours though he is the right age. He and his family are still together in 1881.Despite the age difference this Samuel has the right place of birth but he has initially the wrong occupation
1871 RG10 4428 folio 40 Northowram Yorkshire
Sam Benn 35 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Stone miner
Ruth Benn 35 Clayton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted Weaver
Sharp Benn 11 Northowram, Yorkshire, Son Bobbin carrier
William Benn 5 Northowram, Yorkshire, Son
next door
John Green Head Widower 70 Farmer of 8 acres and worsted weaver Northowram Yorkshire
He also has the added advantage of being missing from the 1881 census
RG12 4425 folio 74Hill Top, Shelf, Yorkshire
Ruth Benn 43 Northowram, Yorkshire, Head Widow mill hand
William Benn 17 Northowram, Yorkshire,Son Mill hand
Grace Benn 7 Northowram, Yorkshire, Daughter
John Green 80 Northowram, Yorkshire, Father Widower retired farmer
Well she would say she was a widow! But I can't find a death registration for Samuel on FreeBMD in Northowram district or in Yorkshire but you will need to check this.
1861 census RG9 3310 folio 15 North Bierley Yorkshire
Samuel Benn 25 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Worsted weaver
Elizabeth Benn 29 Horton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted weaver
Ruth Benn 6 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Margaret Benn 4 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter
Ann Benn 2 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter
Right occupation and this ties him into the 1891 census through Brierley
RG12 3653 folio 7320 Lane Bottom Idle Yorkshire
Benn, Samuel 50 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Cloth weaver
This Samuel not having appeared on previous censuses.
Regards
Valda
23 August 05
I can't see Samuel on the 1901 census this may or may not (there were other Samuels in the area) be his death registration
Benn, Samuel Record Type Deaths Age at death 53 Quarter September Year 1891 District Bradford County West Riding of Yorkshire Volume 9b Page 134
Regards
Valda
23 August 05
And to finish Ruth on the censuses
1891 census RG12 3607 folio 46 Northowram Yorkshire
Benn, Ruth 53 Northowram, Yorkshire, Head Widow Housekeeper crossed through
Benn, Grace 17 Northowram, Yorkshire, Daughter Plush Piece mender
1901 census RG13 4142 folio 79 Ford Hill Farm Queensbury Yorkshire
Ruth Benn 66 Queensbury, Yorkshire, Head Widow
William Benn 36 Northowram, Yorkshire, Son Married Iron furness
Lewin Benn 11 Halifax, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harold Benn 8 Halifax, Yorkshire, Grandson
Regards
Valda
23 August 05
Young men like John Benn are notoriously difficult to find on censuses. My advice would be to access his army record at The National Archives at Kew first which would give details of when he attested (he could have attested well under age, the army was a great one for the finer details, such as volunteers ages) and his army record will tell you where he was on probably at least the 1901 census.
Regards
Valda
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24 August 05
Valda, Once again I am amazed and thrilled with the work you have done and the family you have found. Thank you so very much. Before I go onto to look at what you have found, I must ask you where you go for all this information. Do you have CDs? Are you a member of a fee paying website? How do you get to see all the censuses just like that? I wish you would let me into your secret. I feel like I started my family tree twenty years too soon. I have been scraping round in libraries and archives for years trying to find things. I have sat in Bradford reference library many times slowly winding a micofilm of a Bradford census with one hand and searching an index of surnames with the other. There were hundreds and hundreds of Lister entries each year (a family name which was very thick on the ground there, the big park in Bradford is Lister Park, although I am sure unrelated). I never found what I wanted alas. And you get dispirited after a while. But you come along in an afternoon with your wonderful technology and have made massive inroads. I feel like I must have a piece of that! So let me see where I am and where I need to go now. First of all Eliza has lots more brothers and sisters I never knew about, extra to Elizabeth born circa 1840 who is not on earlier censuses having presumably left home but has come back to dear old dad with yet more illegitimate children by 1881. I note the census for 1861 says the children were born in Bradford, Scotland. I presume we think the enumerator had been on the sherry and meant to say Yorkshire? I also note that they lived at New Houses, Bingley, I was only there in early May. I always have a feel for my Listers and Benns when I am in that part of West Yorkshire and recall telling my companion on the visit (which was unrelated to genealogy) that I had ancestors from there. I was probably standing outside (one of) their homes at the time without realising it. Spooky. So my first task is to look for a marriage between JDL and Elizabeth in Scotland or Bradford or Wakefield around 1840 in time for baby Elizabeth's birth. However, if I get a birth certificate for Elizabeth, or the more interestingly named and less likely to be muddled up with anyone else, Kezia, first I can find out what her mother's maiden name was and make it a bit easier for myself. I think it likely Elizabeth snr did died early otherwise baby John Wilson Benn might have found a home with her. She would have been born circa 1812 so your death entry in 1874 aged 63 looks pretty good. I think Alice Lister, Eliza's sister, is her witness at her marriage to John Long in 1884.1871 could be Edinbro Street perhaps? I will get onto the birth certificate and search for the marriage straight away. Next we come to Samuel Benn. As I understand your findings he is either the runaway husband of Ruth Benn (and their children) (although five years too old cf 1881) or he is the husband of Elizabeth Benn (and their children) (and again five years too old cf 1881) who he might also have run away from, or who might have died. I also picked up Samuel Benn the lodger in 1891, having been to the area and scouted around I can tell you that Lane Bottom is only yards from where Eliza kept her shop in Hall Lane, Windhill. I am sure in my bones that this is him, now all on his own. The mention of North Bierley in 1891 as place of birth and as the homestead in 1871 makes the second Samuel marginally more likely I think. I would be uncomfortable for a start with Samuel and Eliza having a baby called John if John was the name of his wife's father that he had recently run away from. I think he would have wanted her to choose a different name. I find Samuel rather messy and don’t feel sure where to go with him. I wrote to Halifax superintendent registrar twenty years ago looking for a Samuel Benn born Shelf circa 1841 but they didn’t have one, I think they managed 1837 in Holywell which wasn't quite the same thing. North Bierley though would be Bradford Superintendent Registrar. The two places are in roughly the same area but you wouldn’t muddle them up - unless someone else recorded Samuel's entries on his behalf on occasion? I am pretty sure he would have been another methodist/zionist/prims/chapel baptism, they were the norm on the Yorkshire "tops". What's your take Valda? Given the paltry amount of information available on my Samuel, who would you plump for? Or what more would you do to find him? Incidentally I would imagine the two alternatives are related to each other in any case, wouldn't you? Re John Wilson Benn, as you know I am due at Kew on September 20th to look at the records of Charles Hilton his father-in-law, so I might be able to look at his at the same time. He was in the 7th fusiliers when he got married but moved around and joined other regiments over time, including the Singapore volunteers. I would welcome advice on how one goes about finding the first regiment he joined, or would one search on the last? Which would I need to find his attestation papers? My head is still reeling at having Scottish ancestors. Up to now I have had 15 out of 16 great great grandparents as English with one Irish. But when I go to 32s I shall find a bit more of a spread. Thanks again, I will let you know when I have birth certificates and wedding certificates etc.
Regards
Louise
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24 August 05
Hi Louise, I think I'll have to post one of my own brickwalls and hope that I can inveigle Valda on to my case! What fantastic work. You have such great brickwalls - first a Mysterious Avica and now Joseph The Independent Zionist! I'm going to have to Google about Independent Zionism - were the Bradford LISTERs big in this movement and why? You are not the first to think you started your family history research too soon - sounds like a topic for The Lighter Side. What a change it is sitting in comfort at home in front of the computer when and if one chooses - compared with booking times and being squashed up in some horrid little dark room full of people coughing their germs onto one while one wound through a film reader which jumped in and out of focus (I always picked the worst one in the room!). Better not go on ...The street looks like Edinbro to me but I couldn't find an Edinburgh, Edinbro or Edinboro St in Bradford on multimap or streetmap ... And I guess that the enumerator hadn't really been on the happy juice in 1861 (his writing is quite neat and almost elegant) - just a bit careless with how he entered his "Do" i.e. dittos for the family. No doubt you've now seen on FreeBMD Kezia LISTER, Jun qtr 1843, Vol 23, page 203, in Bradford YR. And perhaps this Kezia's marriage in 1866, Vol 9b, page 25 in Bradford Yk (males on the page are William HOLDSWORTH and Ashton TEMPEST). I'll read the next instalment with interest. JAPPS To save Valda a lookup, it seems that it was the wonderfully named Mr TEMPEST (also a worsted weaver) who married the Kezia of the marriage record - and isn't Kezia TEMPEST a great name. They are together in 1871 with daughter Sarah A, aged 3 Kezia a widow in 1881 in Lincolnshire with daughters Sarah A 13 and Clara 3 (Ashton presumably the one who died in 1880 aged 45 in Bradford).
Wednesday 24 August 05
Well Valda, you did suggest that I have a look at Louise's exciting new mystery! Is this Ruth BENN, daughter of Samuel and Ruth (that should say Elizabeth) and aged 6 in 1861, in 1871.North Bierley and all born there
BENN Abram, Head, 63, Coal Miner Do
Ruth, Wife, 62 Do
Joshua, Son, unm, 29, Dyer Wool Do
Ellen, Daur, unm, 29(?), Weaver Worsted Do
Ruth, Granddaughter, unm, 16, Spinner Worsted
From the IGI (no mention of Shelf) Samuel BENN, bap 20 Apr 1835, Bradford, parents Abraham BENN and Ruth. And to the same parents in Bradford Hannah BENN bap 7 Oct 1833 and (both baptized on the same day as Samuel)
Benjamin BENN bap 20 Apr 1835
John BENN bap 20 Apr 1835
And a marriage
Abraham BENN m Ruth BASTOW, 14 Aug 1826 in Bradford.
Cheers,
JAPPS
There's a possibility for Benjamin of the above family (transcribed as Benjamen) BENN, a Worsted Weaver, at Revy Hall, North Bierley, in 1871 - age 34 and born Shelf
24 August 05
I'm going to have to Google about Independent Zionism - were the Bradford LISTERs big in this movement and why?
Hi JAP, welcome to my new puzzle, now rapidly being sorted out, glad you could join us! Thanks for your contributions which I cannot go through just now, I am meant to be working, but here are two tiny points for you. First of all I did try to pick another interesting title for my thread, having learnt from you how much it helps to attract the eye. Unfortunately I made a very small error, JDL was an Independent Zionist, I missed that little word out before in error. I thought you would be mildly amused to learn that you could study the History of Nonconformity at Bradford University had you but space and time (and residency). I attach the link for your interest. can see another few busy evenings coming up for me. I have sent off my £7 for Kezia's certificate already, I am so keen
Regards
Louise
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24 August 05
Louise I will need to send this message in two parts as it exceeds the size allowed.PM me if you want me to talk about sources - fee paying or otherwise. I left in the Bradford Scotland bit because technically the transcriber was correct. You get a group of people born Bradford Yorkshire, with the enumerator dittoing Yorkshire, then you get Elizabeth born Scotland and then he continues underneath writing Bardford but dittoing Elizabeth's Scotland - he doesn't write Scotland. If the JDL marriage was in Scotland then it was pre Scottish civil registration (1856) Edinbro works for me. Not sure about elder sister Elizabeth and illegitimate children. She's obviously before my time - the 1861 census, and after I stopped looking at Dyson 1871, because I figured you had the last census Joseph was on. If she and her flock are an issue, then we will need to know more about her to look for her. OK the 1861 census inconsistency you've spotted Louise, has highlighted for me 'the deliberate mistake' (I wish), see JAP I told you you needed to run a careful eye through this - there were a lot of different censuses to tie through all of this and I was obviously getting tired by the time I got to that last 1861 census, which i just copied and sent. If I had looked at it more carefully I would have started all over again, but I just looked at Samuel and Bierley and his date of birth and thought this ties in well and just sent it. I would probably have been to tired by then to start again anyway. So basically the 1861 census doesn't match with the other censuses. It is a different Samuel who has not appeared on any census before. The age date for the Samuel who married Ruth (see below his actual 1861 census return) gives me even more trouble. He is even older and he has still got the wrong occupation. So now the only thing this Samuel has got going for him is he missing after the 1871 census, which as his wife Ruth said on the following censuses could very well be because he had died.
RG9 3302 folio 94 Green Head Northowram Yorkshire Samuel Benn 31 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal miner Ruth Benn 22 Clayton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Cotton and worsted weaver Sharp Benn 2 Northowram, Yorkshire, Son
Pity because I really liked the name Sharp Benn. So let’s start again with all the potential candidates from 1861 minus Samuel and Ruth above, since you've got all the information on them. The known and correct Samuel of the 1881 census gives Shelf as his birthplace, a birth circa 1840 and an occupation as a weaver. So the remaining Samuel Benn (no Beens) candidates in Yorkshire, within a 10 year age possibility from 1861 are
1. Samuel Benn abt 1840 Bradford, Yorkshire, England Head Bradford, a plumber, glazier & gas fitter, married to Maria aged 18 born Bradford, 1 child Not really a candidate, other than changing his birthplace to Horton he is identical on all censuses (plus growing family 1861-1881
2. Samuel Benn abt 1837 Morley, Yorkshire, England Head Holbeck, Wollen mill worker, wife Hagar aged 21 born Holbeck, 1 child. Not a candidate. Missing 1871 census but in 1881 still with wife, with distinctive name in Holbeck.
3. Samuel Benn abt 1843 Halifax, Yorkshire, England Lodger Huddersfield, unmarried lodger, hawker. Not a candidate married and in Spotland Lancashire 1871 and 1881
4. Samuel Benn abt 1843 Hunslet, Yorkshire, England Son Leeds, unmarried with family, cloth dresser. In 1871 born Leeds in Leeds still with family and unmarried. occupation musician. Missing 1881 but on occupation alone seems exceedingly unlikely candidate.
5. Samuel Benn abt 1836 Shelf, Yorkshire, England Head North Bierley, Worsted weaver, married to Elizabeth aged 29 born Horton, 3 children Ruth 1855 N. Brierley, Margaret 1857 Horton, Ann 1859 Horton. Missing 1871 census (can find no death registrations FreeBMD - Bradford registration district) daughter Ruth looks to be with her Benn grandparents in North Brierley. No sign of Margaret and Ann (see later 1871 census reference on this) or her parents.
6. Samuel Benn abt 1831 Wibsey, Yorkshire, England Head Farnley Yorkshire, coalminer, married to mary aged 28 born Wibsey, 3 children. Samuel and family missing after 1861 but not a likely candidate, too old and wrong job. Just to irritate me I think he turns up again on the 1891 census, having been missing for 20 years The places obviously mean something to you Louise, they don't mean much to me and that makes this a lot harder for me. Two extra candidates on the 1871 census who don't appear to appear on the 1861 census
7. Samuel Benn abt 1844 Wiseford, Ireland Head Brightside Bierlow , blacksmith's striker, wife Eliza aged 26 born Ireland, 3 children. Not a candidate in Sheffield 1881, now a labourer and more children but the essentials are the same
8. Samuel Benn abt 1831 North Bierley, Yorkshire, England Head North Bierley , a singer? at dyehouse (wool has been added) wife Susannah aged 35 born North Brierley, 2 children. Not a candidate still with same wife and doing something to do with singer still, but in Bowling on the 1881 census
Regards
Valda
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24 August 05
My Phillimore's Atlas and index of parishes does not acknowledge Shelf as a parish, so up to 1848 (it might be a parish in its own right after that), does it come under Northowram or Bradford? Northowram has no coverage on the IGI. I can't see North Bierley either. JAP has given you almost certainly the baptism from the IGI of the second and only other Samuel candidate - parents Abraham and Ruth (the grandparents with Ruth, the granddaughter in 1871) who was born Shelf. Would someone born Shelf be baptised in Bradford? If their family then moved by 1840 to North Bierley would the baptisms move from Bradford (IGI coverage up to 1845) to Northowram? Given that I've now covered all the Samuel Benns, I think as comprehensively as I can, (and should have done in the first place - it never does to rush things, and I knew I was playing with a lot of variables in places I didn't have geographical knowledge of, so I should have slowed down - but this exercise of taking all candidates and eliminating them is time consuming and you don't need to be tired when trying it and you do need pieces of paper to scribble on and cross things off from). You have two potential Samuel Benn candidates. The first seems less likely by the minute, but it would help to eliminate him completely by killing him off before 1881. so it would help if you could do that. The second Samuel candidate you need to work through the relevant parish records with, and see what happens to his wife and just in case he isn't your candidate, him as well. The relevant censuses 1861 and 1871 for Samuel 2's parents are.
RG9 3310 folio 54Harborn North Bierley Yorkshire
Abraham Benn 54 Horton, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal miner
Ruth Benn 52 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Martha Benn 21 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted steam weaver
Joshua Benn 20 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Coal minerSarah Benn 18 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Cotton weaver
George Benn 14 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Coalminer
Ellen Benn 9 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Can't find Benjamin and his family on this census - even with the information from 1871 of his family. Can't find John and Hannah but then there are a lot of Benns in this area consistently changing their minds on their ages and where they were born. if I have had this amount of difficulty hacking it with Samuels, I'm not even going to begin to try with a John. JAP has given you Abraham and his family with Ruth on the 1871 census. reference RG10 4440 folio 51Hunningway? House North Bierley Yorkshire And mentioned Benjamin in 1871
RG10 4442 folio 23 Revy Hall North Bierley Yorkshire
Benjamen Benn 34 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Worsted weaver
Elizabeth Benn 39 Braceland, Yorkshire, Wife Married Housewife
Margret Benn 13 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted spinner
Ann Benn 11 Horton, Yorkshire, England Daughter Worsted spinner
Zillah Benn 9 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted spinner
William Benn 7 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son
Mary Benn 3 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Martha Benn 2 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Joshua Benn 7 mths North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son
The eldest two children compare in names and ages with the children of Samuel and his wife. That may be a coincidence or it may explain why I can't find Benjamin and his 'family' on the 1861 census. I can't find a marriage for Benjamin (the 1860 Halifax one is someone else I think also marrying an Elizabeth) on FreeBMD
1881 RG12 4457 folio 5677 Kingswood St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire
Elizabeth Benn 49 Bursland, Yorkshire, Head Married
Zilliah Benn 19 North Birley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted weaver
William Benn 17 North Birley, Yorkshire, Son Jobber in spinning room
Mary Benn 15 North Birley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted spinner
Martha Benn 12 North Birley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted spinner
Joshua Benn 18 North Birley, Yorkshire, Son
Ellen Benn 8 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Martha A. Sugden abt 4 Bradford, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Can't find Benjamin. Despite Elizabeth's married status he may be dead (haven't looked on FreeBMD). I can't see him on the 1891 census. Elizabeth is still married in 1891, but again Benjamin less. I suggest Louise you might request on the West Yorkshire board a lookup for North Bierley in 1851 for Samuel, Abraham and family. Right that really is my best shot. It’s now for you Louise, and JAP if your willing, to check through all this and see if you can spot any flaws?? Louise the attestation papers should not be a problem for John's army record. After the early 1880's attestation papers were filed alphabetically by surname and not by the man's regiment.
Regards
Valda
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25 August 05
Hi again, When I left the computer yesterday, I had trawled through all the Samuels and had left myself a note for today - to persevere with trying to find Samuel (#5 to use Valda's numbering) in 1871 as he seemed a likely one but ... I was hoping that, with a refreshed mind, I might be able to find some positive information today but it seems not. Incidentally, I wondered about the Stuff Singer - seems it wasn't one who sings but one who singes! As far as I can make out, loose nap was removed from cloth by singeing it ...Just to tie up an end, the Samuel (#2) married to Hagar is transcribed as BERON in 1871.From Genuki I learn that North Bierley is in the parish of Bradford. And both Northowram and Shelf are in the parish of Halifax. However Shelf is very close to the boundary between the parish of Bradford and the parish of Halifax. This could well explain why Benjamin, for instance, gives his birthplace as Shelf though the baptism which we think might be the same person is recorded in the IGI as Bradford.As well as the Samuel BENN bap 1835 Bradford, with parents Abraham and Ruth (and, just to make him perhaps less likely, there's an LDS submission showing his birthas 1831), there's another Bradford Samuel in the IGI round the same time. This is Samuel BENN bap 1 Jun 1836 in Bradford to Benjamin BENN and Mary. And a Benjamin BENN (b ca 1797 in Shelf) and a Mary are in the 1861 census in North Bierley with their family (no Samuel with them).FreeBMD has a Samuel BENN b Bradford in the Mar qtr 1840 - LDS submitters seem to think this is the Samuel who married Maria (that would be the plumber) and they have him dying in 1902. FreeBMD also has a Samuel BENN b Halifax in the Mar qtr 1838. FreeBMD of course is incomplete so perhaps there are more Samuel BENNs around in the complete index - both births and deaths. Continued in my next.
JAP
25 August 05
(Continuing)It does seem that trying to tie the Samuel BENN (BEEN) who is with Eliza VIPOND in 1881 either forwards or backwards with confidence is not possible at this stage. The only positive sighting of Samuel is in 1881 in Eccleshill (part of Bradford) aged 41, Married, a Weaving Overlocker (out of employ), born Shelf. And how much reliance can be placed on anything in that record given that his name is clearly written as BEEN, he is described as Master(!) rather than Head, Eliza is described as his wife despite having a different surname (VIPOND), and three children with the surname VIPOND are described as Samuel's sons/daughters. So can any reliance be placed on his age or birthplace? On the information currently to hand, going backwards there seem to be two serious candidates for this Samuel but both are older - Samuel BENN the miner (coal in 1861, stone in 1871 wife a widow in 1881) and Samuel BENN the worsted weaver (found in 1861 but not in 1871).Perhaps the ages are not important as they seem to be very flexible with Sharp's father, Samuel BENN the miner, aging only 4 years between 1861 and 1871 while his mother aged 13 years (31 and 22 in 1861 both 35 in 1871) incidentally Sharp's death is on FreeBMD - Mar qtr 1873, Halifax, aged 14. And if the age of Samuel the miner in 1861 is correct (31) then the death of Samuel BENN, age 51, Mar qtr 1880, Halifax could well be him especially noting that wife Ruth is recorded as a widow in 1881. And remember that this family was in Northowram in both 1861 and 1871 - and Northowram was in Halifax. Perhaps Samuel the miner is not really a candidate? What about Samuel the worsted weaver? Well, he has one major drawback - he can't be found in 1871.Going forward, the Samuel who is a lodger in 1891 is OK for age (50) and occupation vis-à-vis the Samuel who was with Eliza VIPOND in 1881 - but his birthplace has changed to North Bierley which seems strange. And of course the 1893 death of a Samuel in Bradford, Sep qtr 1891, age 53 could well be him. John William/Wilson VIPOND/BENN has completely defeated me! Yes, an 1851 lookup request for Samuel BENN in the West Riding would be great - though it may not help with the main problem of trying to tie the 1881 Samuel back into 1871 and 1861
JAP
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25 August 05
No JAP I think you are right I don't think an 1851 census look up will help with that but it just helps connect that Samuel's family together and perhaps helps with the Benjamin and Mary baptism of the other Samuel in Bradford in 1836 that you have found. My only other thought is to get the death certificate of this second Samuel candidate on the chance whoever registers his death ties him in with Samuel pre 1871 or more unlikely Eliza. With the absence of a marriage to Eliza I think that all that can be done (unless she took a maintenance case against him in the quarter sessions and that would quite a trawl looking for that) is to eliminate any other possible suspect. If Samuel's wife had just died by the time of the 1871 census and his children were with relatives, then he becomes one of those lone men whose main occupation on censuses is to avoid being enumerated! Either that or he needs a death registration by 1871 (unless he just disappears, and or reappears as Samuel Been sic in 1881)? If the death is his in 1893 and ties him to the earlier Samuel, that will surmount the issue of the missing 1871 census return. It still doesn't prove it was him, but in the absence of any other possible candidate and his presence in the vicinity in 1891 it helps make him a very strong favourite. Unless any family member left a will which doesn't seem particularly likely but you never know, the unlikeliest people do sometimes leave wills, I'm not sure the evidence will ever be sufficient to make it 100%.As usual a very good eye for detail JAP
Regards
Valda
25 August 05
I have removed the link because it made the page too wide, being a long link. Sorry! This is a test link to see if I can get a map to come up that shows you, for interest, where Shelf, Northowram, Bierley and Bradford are. I was going to phone Calderdale FHS reading room this morning (they are open on Thursday mornings by happy chance) to confirm that Shelf was in the parish of Halifax, but JAP seems confident in any case. It is very close to the border with the now city of Bradford. I was given to understand some years ago from a Bradford FHS member that back in the 1850s if you said you were from "Bradford" you meant a very particular central part, again a parish of its own, you didn’t mean one of the villages on the outskirts. Of course it has all grown and expanded and now Bradford is a city incorporating the villages into a larger mass. Northowram would be fine as an alternative to Shelf, they are both in Halifax Parish as was and in Calderdale council area. North Bierley is a few miles away to the north-east and is now part of Bradford in terms of local government. I don’t know where it would have been then, I think they would have been in the Bradford registration district though, not the Halifax one. I will ask for the 1851 look up on the board as you suggest. I should remind you perhaps that the whole of this area was knee deep in chapel folk rather than CofE and I suspect that any baptising would have been done in chapel. I don’t think this is well covered on the IGI. I have always suspected that Samuel wasn't going to be found, but I do like your suggestion of ruling out the ones that cannot be him to see who we are left with. Let's see what the board throws up - I cannot work through your census theories just now, but will put them into a spreadsheet tonight and see how they work out. Thanks very much - you two could set up in business together if you had a mind! Best wishes as always Louise
PS also adding another thought I had concerning the 1891 census for Lane Bottom showing a 50 year old Samuel Benn from North Bierley - he was a lodger so may not have been the one that gave the information to the enumerator.
25 August 05
Hello Louise,
There are instructions somewhere for inserting a long link. I'll try to explain - but will use { } when what you really have to use are square brackets.{url=longlink} Click Here{/url} Hope that's meaningful. So the result (using square brackets and inserting the actual long url where I've typed 'longlink') would then be something like the following. To see a Map (from Multimap) which shows Shelf, Northowram, Bierley and Bradford
Click Here
(http//www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=420000.717033319&Y=430000.379314416&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=0&scale=100000&left.x=6&left.y=93)
Good thought about Samuel being a Lodger so details possibly not reliable. It will be great to see whether the 1893 death certificate gives any clues - fingers crossed.
JAP
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25 August 05
JAP Thanks for showing me how to do a long link, I note that your example is actually the one I wanted, of the map to the area, it might be worth making that more clear, perhaps you could edit your post to say you have done it for me? That's really helpful. I have just found what looks like Eliza's birth on freebmd. Lister Eliza Bradford Y. 9b 92 1856I will order that today to go with Kezia's that I ordered yesterday and will also order Samuel's death certificate today. - I might have to take out shares in the GRO.
Best wishes
Louise
25 August 05
Dear Both I want you to think over the next week or so if there is anything I can do to help you with your own researches. Perhaps there is something I can do, or arrange to have done, for you here in the UK that you cannot do yourself. Do you want a photograph taken of somewhere for instance? Is there a book in a library somewhere that you would like me to look in? I am pretty resourceful although you wouldn’t know it to see me on here. Even if you think of something that I might not be able to do personally, I might be able to find someone else who can - a friend or relative.
I am going on holiday tomorrow for a week so you will have lots of time to think of something (and lots of time to wait on those old tenterhooks for the next instalments in the Avica and Lister/Benn sagas).You deserve so much
Best wishes
Louise
26 August 05
Valda Re 1881 RG12 4457 folio 5677 Kingswood St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire Please can you have another look at this as you have said that Joshua is 18 when by my reckoning he should be 10.Thanks.I have had a look at the information you have found and I put it into a spreadsheet to see how it stacked up. I think we agreed that Samuel Benn no 5 was our best bet so far. He was baptised in 1835 although we don’t know how old he was that day, his siblings were baptised with him so at least some of them had to be older than babies. This means that in 1881 he was actually 46, rather than the 40 he declared, and in 1891 (if the lodger is also our Samuel) he was actually 56 rather than the 50 he declared. On the other hand, he could be the Samuel Benn who died in September that year, in which case he was 53 on his death certificate against 56 compared to his baptismal age which is a bit better. Perhaps the death certificate will help by identifying the place of death and the informant etc. We might be able to prove that the Samuel who died in Sept 1891 is not my ancestor even if we cannot prove he is. (Confused now, JAP repeats "1893" but I am positive I ordered the certificate based on 1891)I am not entirely happy with this Samuel because of these age discrepancies but as you say, the job is right and the place of birth is right which makes him otherwise pretty good. Am I to understand that although delicacy prevents you both from pointing to yet another case of moral turpitude in my family, you and JAP think it looks as though Samuel left home and brother Benjamin stepped into the breach? I can quite see that it would be easy to believe they were one and the same family other than the change of head. I wonder if they were twins, having been baptised together and appearing to be the same age as far as I can tell. Alternatively we have a brand new Samuel enter into the fray, son of Benjamin and Mary. I feel like the broth has been spoiled by too many Benns. I have some papers at home that were trancribed for me about 18 years ago by a Bradford genealogist of some non-conformist baptisms on "the tops" (that is Yorkshire speak for those moorland areas high above sea level where the wind blows and the rain falls almost horizontally and the cobwebs never stand a chance.) Haworth (and Wuthering Heights) are not a million miles away from Shelf to put it into context. I will have a look at the papers when I come back from holiday and see if they mean anything now that we have this new information from the census.
Best wishes
Louise
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August 05
Part 1 From the 1881 census in case I confused any of the other children Zilliah 19 William 17 Mary 15 Martha 12 Joshua 10 Ellen 8 Marth A. Sugden 4
On FreeBMD these are the only Samuel Benn deaths I can see within 5 years either side of 1892 Benn, Samuel 1890 June Deaths Salford Benn, Samuel 1891 September Bradford Benn, Samuel 1895 March Deaths Rochdale Benn, Samuel Joseph 1891 September Leeds JAP says in her message
'And of course the 1893 death of a Samuel in Bradford, Sep qtr 1891, age 53 could well be him.'
So I didn't read carefully enough and just latched onto the 1893 bit I only said of Benjamin's two children that they had the same ages as Samuel's which could be a coincidence (you say they were baptised together - the 1871 and 1861 census puts their ages apart - if they were baptised together were they baptised as Samuel and Elizabeth's children?). If they were Samuel's children and not Benjamin's on the 1871 census (and of course both could have had children at the same time and named them the same – it’s just I can't find Benjamin and his family in 1861 and then Samuel's children in 1871) then I'm not really going quite as far as moral turpitude - more man loses wife and is unable to cope with the loss and three children under the age of (since I don't quite know when she died or in what circumstances I can't say under what age). In the interim the women of the family gather round to look after the children while Samuel who may be quite close by fails to get enumerated. Samuel does not remarry immediately (presumably) allowing him to work fulltime and have someone care for his children, and as time passes it is considered a better option for the children to stay in the families they have settled in, particularly the two youngest who may have gone to Benjamin and his new wife as very young children. Or Samuel does take them back after 1871 and they are out on their own by 1881. There are 5 marriages in the Bradford area on FreeBMD in the 1870s of Ruth Benns, 1 for a Margaret, and 1 for Ann. These are the potentials.
Regards
Valda
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27 August 05
Part 2 BENN, Margaret 1877 December Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire COTTERILL, Joseph 1877 December Marriages Bradford Volume 9b page 124
RG12 4458 folio 8653 Royd St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire
James Stephenson 24 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head Married Wool combing overlooker
Margaret Stephenson 23 Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Stuff weaver
Ruth Stephenson 2 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Zillah Stephenson 8 mths Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
BENN, Ann 1876 December Marriages Bradford ORMONDROYD, Leonard 1876 December Marriages Bradford
RG12 4434 folio 55 Upper George, North Bierley, Yorkshire
Leonard Ormandroyd 23 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Woolen comber
Ann Ormandroyd 21 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Samuel Ormandroyd 3 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son
Mary Ormandroyd 2 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
James Ormandroyd 1 mth North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son
Ruth of course is more tricky. I think I've got it down to 2 possibilities (another marriage was to a Charles Ormandroyd but I can't find evidence of a Ruth Ormandroyd on the 1881 census or Charles, so there could be three possibilities) BENN, Ruth 1875 March Marriages Bradford Wardman, Randolph 1875 March Marriages Bradford Volume 9b page 55
RG12 4435 folio 58 Slack Side, North Bierley, Yorkshire
Randolph Wardman 28 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Card cleaner combining (stuff)
Ruth Wardman 28 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted piece prover
Edith Wardman 2 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
and if you wait long enough, in comes another Sharp - great name, he is the only Sharp Fox in the whole country in 1881 Benn, Ruth 1873 December Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire Fox, Sharp 1873 December Marriages Bradford Volume 9d page 189
RG12 4435 folio 10 Hardy St, North Bierley, Yorkshire
Sharp Fox 25 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Painter
Ruth Fox 26 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Charles Fox 4 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Son
Mary Annie Fox 1 N Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Sadly since I'm obviously going to be doomed as far as Sharps in the family are concerned, he looks the less likely, and for the more ignorant amongst us - what precisely is stuff? The brand new Samuel Benn son of Benjamin and Mary Christening 01 JUN 1836 Bradford, Yorkshire And not forgetting SAMUEL BENN Birth 24 JAN 1834 Queenshead General Baptist, Clayton By Bradford, Yorkshire, Father ISAAC SHARP Family Mother MARTHA BENN OR FIRTH And these are only the IGI candidates. I just squeezed the second one in because he would obviously be hugely problematically. Neither of these quite make it as candidates because they don’t appear on either the 1861 or 1871 censuses (of course they could be the army) but just as easily they could be dead or emigrated or in the case of the second one could be called by another surname. Working on the principle of possibilities since anything is possible, it could be a Samuel Benn born outside of Yorkshire, since all you have to go on is the 1881 census information, which of course could be incorrect. I think you have to eliminate the candidate(s) you have at present in your hand before you tramp off into the bush to find some more, who even if they do have baptisms not covered by the IGI, still don’t appear on those two earlier censuses at least in Yorkshire.
Regards
Valda
05 September 05
Valda - thanks for the latest posts, I shall have to come back to them later. I have been composing offline and need to upload my contribution first. Update on Joseph Dyson Lister and his complicated family.I have now received the birth certificate for Kezia Lister, daughter of JDL and Eliza Lister, direct ancestor and another daughter of JDL.I can now confirm the following. Kezia Lister born 3rd May 1843. Father Joseph Lister, wool sorter, mother Betty Lister formerly Widdop. Born Daisy Hill Lane, Manningham, Bradford.Eliza Lister born 28th March 1856Father Joseph Lister, wool sorter, mother Betty Lister formerly Widdop. Born Jowett Street, Bradford (making her 16 years 7 months when she married Thomas Vipond). I have had a look on the IGI and can see that Joseph Lister married Betty Widdop in 1833 in Haworth, West Yorkshire. I am trying not to get too excited, obviously I need to do some research but wouldn’t it be lovely if they were married by the Reverend Bronte himself. I have not yet been able to identify a Betty/Elizabeth Widdop born in Scotland as the census suggests. The family name hails from the Haworth area, there is a reservoir named Widdup just by Hebden Bridge so one would have expected her to be local but the census is quite clear on this point. I have made contact with someone who is researching the name and had a birth of another female Widdup in Peebles, Scotland in 1805 so I have asked to see her tree to see if I can make a match with it. Perhaps her parents were from the local area but went to Scotland for some reason, she was born and then they came home?
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05 September 05
Samuel Benn I have received the death certificate I ordered, details as follows. Death 29th August 1891, Lane Bottom, Windhill, Idle, Bradford Samuel Benn aged 53, powerloom woollen cloth weaver, cause of death pernicious something beginning with “a”, informant was Hannah Illingworth, occupier of the same address (which I imagine means she was the landlady, we know he was the lodger on the census taken only a few months earlier). She was present at the death evidently. This new piece of information if reliable gives him a year of birth of 1837/1838 which is a few years before the age given on the 1891 census for the same man. I would imagine that where you might be a tad cavalier with the census, if it was your job to report a death you would make sure you had the person’s papers and knew their proper age. I don’t know if this Samuel is my Samuel but I have always thought he could be, given that Eliza’s shop was so near. However, I understand that there is another death of a Samuel Benn in 1902 in Bradford, aged 62 (Vol 9b, p87) which would make him born in 1840 which would be right for my Samuel in 1881 in Eccleshill and right for the death required by 1903 in order to be deceased at his son’s wedding. I have also now acquired the CD for Bradford for 1851 from the Bradford Family History Society. Ironically it arrived just after Ju1 kindly looked some entries for me. I have searched all the districts for any mention at all of any age of Samuel Benn, this is what I found.
1851 Buttershaw, North Bierley Folio 1 24 162 1
Benn Benjamin Head Mar M 54 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf
Benn Mar y Wife Mar F 48 Coal Miner's Wife Yorks., Shelf
Benn Samuel Son Unm M 26 Weaver Yorks., Shelf – born circa 1825
Benn Sarah Daur Unm F 22 Weaver Yorks., Shelf
Benn William Son Unm M 20 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf
Benn Thos. Son Unm M 16 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf
Benn Easter Daur - F 13 Weaver Yorks., Shelf
Benn Harriet Daur - F 10 Scholar Yorks., Shelf
Harbour, North Bierley (I cannot think what the Harbour is)Folio 4 116 242 7
Benn Abraham Head Mar M 43 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Ruth Wife Mar F 42 - Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Samuel Son Unm M 20 Labourer Yorks., Wibsey - born circa 1831
Benn Martha Dau - F 11 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Joshua Son - M 9 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Sarah Dau - F 8 - Yorks., Wibsey
Benn George Son - M 4 - Yorks., Wibsey
173 Dudley Hill, Bowling, Bradford Folio 8 299 38 1
Benn Joseph Head Mar M 30 Coal Miner Yorks., North Bierley
Benn Rachel Wife Mar F 27 Weaver Yorks., Wike
Benn Abigal Daur - F 9 - Yorks., Halifax
Benn Sarah Daur - F 6 - Yorks., Halifax
Benn Benjamin Son - M 4 - Yorks., Bowling
Benn Sam Son - M 6 M - Yorks., Bowling – born circa 1845
Thorp Martha Cousin Unm F 14 Weaver Yorks.,
Shelf Field Head Cottages, Horton Folio 1x 61 168 1 6
Benn Henry Head Mar M 37 Jobber in Mill Yorks., Horton
Sarah Wife Mar F 38 - Yorks., Horton
Benn Hannah Daur - F 15 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Horton
Benn Martha Daur - F 13 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Horton
Benn Samuel Son - M 11 Scholar Yorks., Horton – born circa 1840
Benn John Son - M 5 Scholar Yorks., Horton
Canada, Thornton, Bradford 1c 61 85 1
Benn Samuel Head Mar M 50 Weaver Worsted Yorks., Thornton – born circa 1801
Benn Hannah Wife Mar F 52 Weaver Worsted Yorks., Thornton
Benn Emma Daur - F 12 At Home Yorks., Thornton
Benn Samuel Son - M 4 - Yorks., Thornton – born circa 1847
New House Fold, Clayton, Thornton, Bradford 2b 305 36 1
Benn Samuel Head Unm M 52 Hand Loom Weaver Yorks., Northowram – born circa 1799
2d 356 125 1 Chapel Lane, Thornton, Bradford
Benn Samuel Head Mar M 40 Warp Dresser Yorks., Clayton born circa 1811
Benn Grace Wife Mar F 39 Domestic Yorks., Clayton
Benn James Son Unm M 16 Joiner Yorks., Clayton
Benn Asa Son - M 13 Spinner Yorks., Clayton
Benn Iain Son - M 8 Spinner {Scholar deleted} Yorks., Clayton
Benn Mary Daur - F 5 - Yorks., Clayton
Benn Jonathan Son - M 3 - Yorks., Clayton
I don’t know what to make of them yet, I have not been able to check them out on my database of possible Samuel’s yet. What are your thoughts?
Regards and best wishes
Louise
06 September 05
Hi Louise, I'll have to refresh my memory about the BENNs (not to mention Avica!) but just a trivial point - I suspect that the cause of death would be 'pernicious anaemia'.
Cheers,
JAP
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06 September 05
Replying to the easier of the two messages as like JAP I'll have to go back on the finer points of all the Benns (though from memory I think the 1902 death is probably the plumber?).As far as the Listers are concerned - you win some and you lose some and here I'm the bearer of bad tidings concerning your Bronte hopes.
1861 census RG9 3228 folio 60 Well Lane Haworth
Joseph Lister 48 outdoor labourer born Haworth
Betty Lister 48 born Haworth
plus 3 daughters.
The 1805 Scottish baptism also sounds too early as the censuses and her possible death registration all indicate a birth circa 1811/1812 with no obvious reason why she would adjusted her age by 10 years, unless it was to get it nearer her husband's. Evidenced against this age adjustment is the birth of her youngest child Mary. With a circa birth in 1805 she would be about 56 on Mary's birth and 51 on the birth of her known penultimate child. Have you checked the 1851 Bradford CD for Joseph and Elizabeth Lister as that would probably be your last chance for a specific birthplace in Scotland given on a census for Elizabeth and if there are any older children still unknown, it would show birthplaces for them with ages, which might help in a search for Elizabeth and Joseph's marriage date?
Regards
Valda
06 September
There were 6 Hannah Illingworth's in Idle on the 1891 census. The correct one turned out to be the 5th I tried, a widow with children and Samuel's landlady in 1891.Illingworth, Hannah abt 1849 Windhill, Yorkshire, Head Idle Yorkshire
Regards
Valda
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08 September 05
Dear Valda Following your advice I had another look at the CD I purchased from the Bradford FHS which contains the census data for 1851 (I assume that if I keep giving them a plug it will satisfy the copyright people.) The disc says I am not allowed to use the information commercially but only for amateur genealogy, or words to that effect. I found a really good entry for our JDL and his family which I have copied out again here below. (I don’t seem to be able to line it up properly, so hope it reads okay)
1851 Census Under School, Manningham, Horton, Bradford 2310/2k/538/121
Lister Joseph Head Married 40 Wool sorter Wakefield
Lister Betty Wife Married 40 Scotland
Lister Mary Daughter unm 18 At home Bradford
Lister John R Son unm 15 Piecer at worsted mill Bradfd
Lister Joseph Sonunm 13 Jobber in wool warehouse
Lister Elizabeth Daughter 11 Scholar Manningham
Lister Keziah Daughter 8 Scholar Manningham
Lister Henry Son 6 Scholar Manningham
Lister Ann Daughter 4 Manningham
Lister William Son N/K Manningham
Widdop John Father in law Married 65 Wool comber Steeton, Yorks
Lister William brother in law (sic) Married 45 Wool sorte rWakefield
This shows that although Betty was born in Scotland, she does belong to a local West Yorkshire family as her father was born in Steeton which is just north of Keighley and these days forms part of Bradford city council. It again puts her birth circa 1810/11.It also reveals some children we did not previously know about. I assume John R Lister is John Richard Lister, the names of his two grandfathers. My next task will be to find any baptisms of a Betty Widdup with a father John born Steeton. But failing that if I can find only one suitable John Widdup born Steeton circa 1785/6 then I might be able to manage without Betty's baptism. When I mentioned the Widdup baby baptised in 1805 in Peebles. I wasn’t meaning that it was Betty just that it might be connected in some way, it might offer an explanation as to what they were doing up there. I have now received a copy of her family tree from the Widdup researcher I found through the IGI. It doesn't help with my research unfortunately, her family moved away from West Yorkshire to Derbyshire a generation before John was born in Steeton. However it might tie in one day. Lydia Widdup identified Peebles, Scotland as her place of birth on a census, all her siblings were baptised in Nottinghamshire. So she is a bit of a mystery like our Betty six years later. I am still trying to get my head round the fact that there must have been two marriages between a Betty Widdup and a Joseph Lister in around 1833 in the Bradford area and wondering how I will ever find mine if the one in Howarth isn't it.
Dear Jap
Thanks for letting me know about pernicious anaemia, it sounds horrible
Best wishes to both
Louise Regards and thanks Louise
08 September 05
Hi, I'm new to this site but I have read through this thread with great interest. I have Benns, Sharps, Illingworths, a Lister and an Ormandroyd in my tree, however they don't fit in with the ones you are discussing. My Benns are from Halifax and were Weslyans at one time. They seem to favour biblical names Abraham m Grace Holmes 18C sons Isaac, David and dau. Betty Isaac b. 1789 m. Grace Sharpe 1816 Children Mark, Harriet, William, Hannah Mark b. 1822 Shelf m. Sarah Priestley in Wibsey children Mary, Isaac, Walter, Medley, Grace. So some of the names are consistent but I don't think there is a connection. I have spent much of my life in and around Braford. So may I help with some place names? Edingburgh Street is or was in the Listerhills area near to the town center. Harbour is in Wibsey - Cold Harbour, Harbour Road and Harbour Crescent all still exist. Slack, Slack Top, Slack Bottom and Slack side are all in Wibsey. The old Wibsey pronunciation of Benn sounds like beeann Upper George is in Wibsey (and there is a pub of the same name frequented by my grandfather).Horton, Wibsey, Buttershaw, Shelf, Queensbury (Queenshead), North Bierley and Northowram are all within a 2 hour walk of each other. Hope this helps and I look forward to reading more
Regards Dave
PS I have the name P Bronte on some of my family burials in Haworth.
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09 September 05
Steeton appears to be in the parish of Kildwick, which supposedly has IGI coverage up to 1843 - I can't see a baptism for John Widdop though (but Widdops are present earlier).1861 census RG9 3335 folio 38Duckworth Lane Manningham Yorkshire John Widdop 75 Kildwick, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Gardenerin the house of widowed laundress Harriet Ackroyd aged 33 born Merfield? I can't see a possible death registration for him on FreeBMD. On the same census there is an Abram Widdop born circa 1788 in Kildwick, a blacksmith living in Bingley, John Widdop born circa 1816 a wool comber living in Keighley and Jane born circa 1828 living with her widowed mother also in Keighley. Nobody born Steeton. Widdop is a surname listed as being researched by a member of the Guild of One Name Studies
I will return to the Benns at the weekend when I have the time to get my head around the possibilities.
Regards
Valda
09 September 05
It is interesting that John WIDDOP (assuming they are the same John) is recorded as "married" in each census but is not living with a wife. If she is still alive, I wonder where she is (perhaps she came from Scotland and might have returned there).The free surname search on ScotlandsPeople shows that WIDDOP (and variants) is quite rare in Scotland. For instance, from 1855 (start of statutory registration) until 1900 there are only 2 WIDDOP deaths - one in 1868 and one in 1895. But that is just grasping at straws as the wife, if alive, might be anywhere. At the very beginning we had Joseph D LISTER in 1881 - married but his wife was not with him. Did we have Betty (WIDDOP) LISTER in 1881?7
Lillycroft Lane, Manningham, YorkshireRG11/4464 Fol 119 Piece 29
Bessy (sic) LISTER, Head, Married, 69, b Scotland
William LISTER, Son, Unmarried, 31, a Wool Sorter (Stuff), b Bradford, Yorkshire
There are some possible deaths for Betty on FreeBMD (though admittedly it is incomplete) Betty LISTER, age 76, Dec qtr 1887 Bradford Betty LISTER, age 78, Sep qtr 1888 Keighley Elizabeth LISTER, age 79, Dec qtr 1888 Bradford Manningham was in the Bradford registration district according to Genuki.
JAP
09 September 05
Dave, thanks for joining us. I shall try to find some old material about the Benns on the Halifax tops that I had sent to me 18 years ago - transcripts from non-conformist records. I will put it up here for you, I am sure some of the names are from your tree. The father of the Bronte girls was the vicar in Haworth and if my memory does not escape me, he was called Patrick. So I assume he is the man who buried your ancestors. That is quite a claim to fame! Have you been to the museum in the parsonage? I have been twice it is a really interesting place to visit.
Dear All I will back to study your comments and findings later - am on lunch hour at work so cannot do much now, but will make time over the weekend. It continues to excite and mystify - why wasn't Betty living with Joseph in 1881? He had one child and her children staying with him so he wasn’t an outcast, and she had one child staying with her, so she wasn’t an outcast either. What a funny family I have
Best wishes for a happy weekend
Louise
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09 September 05
A collection of Benn references in Halifax and Bradford were gathered together and sent to me in 1987 by a Bradford genealogist. I will recreate the information here exactly as it was sent to me. Some of it might be relevant to Dave and one day some of it might be relevant to me, in the meantime if I post it all here it will one day be accessible on GOOGLE and might help some other enthusiast.1870 Whites clothing directory Benjamin Benn, furniture remover, Greens Yard, Foundry Street, Halifax John Benn, furniture and wool remover, Portland Street Mrs Matilda Benn, shopkeeper, Stone Street, Halifax No Benns in Shelf directory “Shelf is a pleasant village and township 3.5miles NNE of Halifax and contains 1350 acres and 3312 inhabitants. The church St Michael built in 1850. Three chapels – Wesleyans, Wesleyan Reformers and Primitive Methodists. ”1866 Directory No Benns in Halifax or Shelf lists Northowram (in Clayton parish, Bradford)Mary Benn, beerhouse1853 Directory Joseph Benn, beerhouse, Upper Wichfield, Shelf 1837 Directory No Benns in Shelf 1903 Bradford Directory includes John Benn, grocer, 487 Little Horton Lane, Listerhills John Benn, warehouseman, 1 Hollings Mount, Manningham John Benn, dyer, 45 Runswick Terrace, West Bowling 1909 Bradford Directory includes John Benn, grocer, 487 Little Horton Lane John Benn, warehouseman, 1 Hollins Mount Walter Benn, telegraphist, 22 Nearcliffe Road, Toller Lane, Heaton 1912 Bradford Directory includes John Benn, grocer as above John Benn warehouseman as above Neither of the above John Benns in the 1921 directory
09 September 05
Blackburn Register no 86 Shelf Parish Church(I do not know what the Blackburn Register is, but these all look like graves or internment records? The names that appear unrelated to Benns are obviously relatives through marriage – daughter and sons in law LB)108 Samuel son of Benjamin and Mary Benn of Buttershaw died 5th October 1857 aged 26Benjamin (above) died 7th January 1864 aged 67Mary (wife of above) died 9th July 1894 aged 9227 Mary Ann Benn of Beck Hill died 4th January 1906 aged 79104 Levi Benn of Buttershaw died 12th October 1873 aged 28 Emily, his wife, died 23rd January 1874 aged 23Annie Louise, beloved wife of Edward Richard Brett Binns who died at Grimsthorpe 19th February aged 40Blackburn Register no 79 Ambler Thorn Chapel, Queensbury87 Benjamin Benn of Ford Hill died 4th September 1887 aged 41Jane, widow of the above, died 30th April 1909 aged 71Blackburn Register no 78 Queensbury Parish Church Nancy, wife of William Benn of Lidgett Green formerly of Queensbury, born 5th February 1816 died 6th December 1887Mary Elizabeth daughter of John and Eliza Lancaster died 26th March 1899 in her 19th year William Benn, above died 12th January 1900 in his 88th year John Lancaster, above, of Lidgett Green died 15th August 1912 aged 57Sarah Jane Benn daughter of Thomas and Sarah Benn of Queensbury died 12th March 1981 aged 52Thomas Benn, above, died 12th June 1913 aged 75Clara, daughter of the above died 8th June 1917 aged 47Blackburn Register no 99 Kipping Cemetery Thornton66. Ann wife of John Benn of Thornton died 18 December 1894 in her 73rd year Rebecca daughter of Craven and Sarah Benn of Idle died 28 Feb 1903 in her 34th year Mary (their daughter) died 4th February 1884 in her 8th year67. John Craven Benn of Idle who died 13th may 1922 aged 73.Blackburn Register no 87 Shelf Bethel Chapel6. John Benn – owner186. Tom beloved son of John and Mary Ann Benn died 16th August 1880 aged 6 years216. Isaac Ben of Shelf died….Grace wife of the above died ….Ruth daughter of William and Selina Terry died 4th April 1862 aged 1
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09 September 05
Blackburn Register no 47 Great Horton Wesleyan Cemetery151. Leah Shepherd died 30 May 1859 Rachel Benn (sister of the above) died 4 Feb 1860 aged 70. Martha widow the late John Benn of Great Horton died 25 December 1873 in 73rd year. John Benn of Great Horton died 15 January 1864 in 61st year Ellen Benn wife of the above died 8 August 1871 in 60th year Blackburn Register no 25 Coley Parish Church. Martha wife of William Sutcliffe of Northowram and daughter of Samuel Benn of Shelf died 14 June 1832 aged 28 Frances Benn daughter of above Samuel died 23 October 1846 aged 20 Samuel Benn above died 5 Feb 1847 age 68 Samuel Benn son of the above died 5 August 1848 aged 27 Blackburn Register Great Horton Wesleyan Chapel. John Benn of Horton Bank Top schoolmaster, died 29 March 1842 aged 46 David Holdsworth Benn son of the above John and Martha Benn died 30th April 1842 aged 15 years and 10 months Samuel Benn son of John and Martha (above) died 27 November 1837 age 8 and was buried at Dolphin Chapel but at the request of his late father was removed to this place Hannah Holdsworth Wade daughter of John and Martha Benn and wife of Aaron Wade died 10th Feb 1854 age 19 and a stillborn infant Blackburn Register Queensbury Baptist Chapel. Emma wife of Jeptha H Benn died 11 Feb 1923 aged 71 Frederick their son died in infancy Jeptha Henry Benn (above) died 18 June 1928 aged 76. The next two are particularly sad. Isabella daughter of Asa and Fanny Benn of Queensbury died 19 January 1861 aged 6 months. Sam their son died 22 April 1869 aged 2 years 4 months William their son died 15 January 1874 aged 16 Ernest their son died 12 February 1878 aged 14 Alice their daughter died 8 July 1916 aged 52 Asa Benn (above) died 22 Feb 1915 aged 78 Fanny Benn (above) died 16 September 1902 aged 64. Emma Benn daughter of John and Ann Benn of Wyke formerly of Queensbury died 15 November 1843 age 7 Sarah their daughter died 7 June 1850 aged 7 Joseph their son died 5 February 1855 aged 20 Eliza Ann their daughter died 15 September 1865 aged 14 and three children who died in infancy Ann Benn (above) died 22 October 1889 age 73 John Benn (above) born 7 June 1814 died 2 April 1893
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09 September 05
Sam Benn born 15 Feb 1843 died 27 July 1921 Hannah (wife of above) born 16 April 1843 died 16 April 1920 Edgar son of the above born 24 February 1869 died 25 September 1872. Grace wife of Samuel Benn of Queensbury died 11 February 1885 aged 73 Samuel Benn above died 6 July 1886 age 76 Mary their daughter died 7 March 1843 age 3 Hannah their daughter died 24 Jan 1846 age 11 Mary their daughter died 30 Jan 1862 aged 17 Martha Ann and Maria daughters who died in infancy. David son of Jonathan and Hannah Benn of Queensbury died in infancy Jonathan Benn above died….Jonas their son died….Jonathan their son died….Hannah (above) died 27 December 1861 age 78140. Lee grave includes Martha Benn daughter of Smith and Mary Lee of Queensbury born 1 June 1826 died 19 Sept 1884 Mercy daughter of Martha Benn born 2 October 1865 died 7 June 1886. Drake grave includes Ellen wife of John Benn and daughter of Joshua Drake of Queensbury died 20 May 1822 age 25 Northowram Registers contain various non-conformist registers for Northowram and Coley chapels. 1644-1752 Christenings August 1644 John son of Jo Benn 19th Nov 1647 John Benn 28th Nov 1675 John son of John Benne, Shelf 4th Dec 1678 Joshua son of John Bend, Northowram Marriages 13th May 1721 John Benn and Deborah Denton of Northowram 24th Nov 1735 Johnathan Benn of Northowram and Susan Hemingway Burials John Benn in Shelf died 13th July 1706 John Ben of High Bentley buried at Coley 5th Jan 1706/7 Mary Benn of Shelf died 7th April 1709 poor Benjamin Benn of Shelf buried 20th September 1712 Joshua Benn of Northourum died 25th May 1714 aged about 60 Widow Martha Benn of Northouram Green died 9 April buried 11 April 1719 Squire Benn of Northouram Green died 5 November 1727 Mary Benn of Northourum died 26 March 1732 Ephraim Benn of High Bentley buried 7 November 1736 Halifax Parish Church Baptisms 1538-1593 Sibella filia bastida Rici Benne de Hypom* et Margrete Sowood de Northo bapt fuit XXV die mens eiusdm 1538/9 Johana fil bastd Rici Bene and Alicee Bentley de Hypo viij 1539 Johana fil Rici Benne de Schelff viij January 1542 Ysabella fil Rici Benne, Schelff xiiij January 1545/6Ric (crossed out) Willm fili Richardi Ben de Shelff April 1550 Marye fil Willm Benne and Margaret Longbotho xxvj October 1578Robt fili Richard Benn de Hypor xxx August 1579 Willm fili Rici Benn de Northour xxviij May 1581 Agnes fil Willm Benn de Shelff xxvj August 1582 Susa fil Willm Benn de Shelff vj December 1584 Samuell fil Willm Benn de Shelffe xxvij November 1586 Johne fil Willm Benn de Shelffe xv February 1589Agnes fil Robert Benne de Northour 13 August 1592* I am assuming this is Hipperholme in Halifax Marriages 1538 – 1593 Ricus Benne and Johane Rayn June 1542 Itm Robtus Beuley and margarete Benne xxiii ? 1545 Richarde Barowcloughe and Genet Bene ix July 1549 Robert Sharppe and Sibbella Bene iiii May 1561William Myler and Isabel Benne 20th June 1568 Johanes Crowedre de Eland and Jeneta Benne 9th April 1570 Richard Benn et Sebell Sawood xxx May 1579 Ric Sowde et Agnes Bene xxvi July 1585 Richard Benne et Jane Mortimer 21 May 1592 Burials 1538 – 1593 Johana fil bastd Rici Bene de Shelffe sext die October 1541 Jane wife Ric Ben de North vlti die June 1548 Richard Benn de Shelff oedem die April 1582 Vx Richard Benne de Shelff xvii June 1584 Jennet Benne de Hiporu xiiii August 1587 Vx Richi Benn de Shelf 28 February 1590/1
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10 September 05
Harbour, North Bierley (I cannot think what the Harbour is )Folio 4 116 242 7
Benn Abraham Head Mar M 43 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibse y
Benn Ruth Wife Mar F 42 - Yorks., WibseyBenn Samuel Son Unm M 20 Labourer Yorks., Wibsey - born circa 1831
Benn Martha Dau - F 11 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Joshua Son - M 9 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey
Benn Sarah Dau - F 8 - Yorks., Wibsey
Benn George Son - M 4 - Yorks., Wibsey
The above Samuel looks to be #6 - Samuel the coalminer b ca 1831 in Wibsey, who was in Farnley in 1861 with wife and 3 children (names? - did they have a Ruth?).But remember #5 - Samuel the worsted weaver b ca 1836 Shelf who married Elizabeth and had Ruth, Margaret and Ann. The family was in the 1861 but not the 1871. We had wondered whether Ruth (6 in 1861, b North Bierley) was the 16yo Ruth (b North Bierley) with grandparents Abram and Ruth BENN in 1871 in North Bierley. (And we wondered whether Elizabeth might have died, Ruth gone to the grandparents in North Bierley, and Margaret and Ann perhaps have been 'adopted' by Benjamin and Mary in North Bierley - as they had daughters Margaret and Ann of appropriate age and birthplace in 1871. And #5 missed in the census.)But Ruth going to the grandparents doesn't fit if Abram and Ruth in 1871 in North Bierley are the same as Abram and Ruth listed above in 1851 in North Bierley with son Samuel b Wibsey in 1831 i.e. not Samuel #5 who was b ca 1836 in Shelf. The 1871 lot who had a granddaughter Ruth were in North Bierley and all born there
BENN Abram, Head, 63, Coal Miner Do
Ruth, Wife, 62 Do
Joshua, Son, unm, 29, Dyer Wool Do Ellen, Daur, unm, 29(?), Weaver Worsted Do
Ruth, Granddaughter, unm, 16, Spinner Worsted
Very puzzling. Are they the same Abram and Ruth? Lots of similarities but also discrepancies. All are born North Bierley with no mention of Wibsey. Abram - Iron Miner Coal Miner. Joshua - Iron Miner Dyer Wool. No daughter Ellen in 1851. All too puzzling. If only #5 could be found in 1871. In 1861 in North Bierley, the #5 family was Samuel the Worsted Weaver b ca 1836 Shelf, Elizabeth the wife b ca 1832 Horton, and daughters Ruth b ca 1855 North Bierley, Margaret b ca 1857 Horton, and Ann b ca 1859 Horton.
JAP
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10 September 05
Part 1 According to my original list there are 9 potential Samuel's around at the time of the relevant events and censuses (more probably born at the right time) - the ninth being the first candidate I gave not included in the list of 8.The 1851 census index for Bradford is an incomplete list of these 9 Samuels since it is only an index of Bradford not Yorkshire (and anyway one of the 9 was born in Ireland).Louise has listed every Samuel in 1851 of whatever age. So from the Samuels found in 1851 who fall into the potential age group I think number 6 is probably at Harbour North Bierley, son of Abraham and Ruth. This Samuel in 1861 in Farnley had a daughter Ruth born circa 1855 in Wibsey who would be the right age for the granddaughter staying with her grandparents in 1871. The 1871 and 1851 entries seem consistent with Abraham and Ruth as far as I can see with their entry in 1861 in North Bierley, accepting of course that it seems standard that different places of birth are given (and not just by this one family)Abraham Benn abt 1807 Horton, Yorkshire, Head Ruth Benn abt 1809 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Martha Benn abt 1840 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Joshua Benn abt 1841 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Sarah Benn abt 1843 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter George Benn abt 1847 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Ellen Benn abt 1852 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter and Farnley Yorkshire Samuel Benn abt 1831 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Mary Benn abt 1833 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Wife Ruth Benn abt 1855 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Daughter John Benn abt 1859 Farnley, Yorkshire, Son Leah Benn abt 1861 Farnley, Yorkshire, Daughter I had thought this man disappeared after the 1861 census but on checking again I think he is actually candidate number 8 who appears for the first time on the 1871 census and has a complete run of censuses there after in Bowling including giving Wibsey as his place of birth in 18911871 census North Bierley Yorkshire Samuel Benn abt 1831 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Susannah Benn abt 1836 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife John Benn abt 1859 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Leah Benn abt 1861 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Joshua Benn abt 1852 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Boarder (plus brother)So the list collapses back down to 8 candidates with 6 and 8 amalgamating-sorry for the confusion but it’s a bit tricky. From the 1851 census Samuels of the right age I think candidate number 1 the Bradford plumber at Field Head Cottages Horton. Right age and he does give a birthplace of Horton on subsequent censuses. That leaves you the Bowling Samuel Benn who is given as aged 6 (birth circa 1845) but having looked at the 1861 census where his birth is circa 1850 I think his age on the 1851 census was 6 months not 6 years (also consistent with his age in 1871) so not a candidate. So to reiterate I think there are now 8 known potential candidates of Samuel Benns around at the right time and in the right area, two of whom are found on the 1851 census for Bradford and still only one fitting the possible profile.
Regards
Valda
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September 05
Part 2 The Dysons being in two separate households for one night in 1881 does not mean necessarily they were living apart, all it means is they were in two separate households for that night. I could just as easily surmise that their son William was not well and Elizabeth had gone to look after him and consequently was on the door for the census enumerator giving the information and the said enumerator decided she was the head of household. Or she had gone to visit William (out working) and again the mix up on who precisely was head of household. You need more proof than a census entry to find anything unusual or even mysterious in the couples' housing arrangements. I have found people giving married as their status on censuses when I know they are widowed. Admittedly this is much more common for women then men (widowhood perhaps being seen as a lesser status than married woman and only just up from being a spinster?) It might also be that as far as these people were concerned marriage was not just for the life of either partner. If the status mix up only occurs on one census you can't tell whether it was the enumerator's mistake, but I have found examples where it occurs on each subsequent census long after the death of the other partner. So I would not take the evidence of marital status from either census (including whether the 1861 census is the same man - it looks a good match) as evidence that Elizabeth's mother was still living and somewhere else. On the 1861 census I can find a potential match to two of Joseph Dyson Lister's siblings, William Lister 52 (born circa 1809) Wakefield in Bradford a wool sorter and Thomas Lister 58 (born circa 1803) born Wakefield in Bowling a wool sorter (with a son and grandson called Horatio). So it may be worth looking on the 1851 census to see if either of these are in the Bradford area (with an elderly parent - always the optimist). Or whether any potential candidates are there for Joseph's parents Richard and Betty, living either on their own or with a married daughter for instance. Both men are in the same place in 1871 with Thomas listing himself as Thomas D. Lister. William has disappeared by 1881 but Thomas D. is still in Bowling. From FreeBMD LISTER, Thomas Dyson Record Type Deaths Age at death 80 Quarter September Year 1883 District Bradford County West Riding of Yorkshire Volume 9b Page 20 There are 3 other Thomas Dyson Lister vital events on FreeBMD including a birth and death in Wakefield in 1859. Horatio Dyson Lister also figures. In all there are 23 Dyson Lister vital events on FreeBMD.
Regards
Valda
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September 05
Referring to the 1851 census entry for the household of Abram and Ruth BENN, I said The above Samuel looks to be #6 - Samuel the coalminer b ca 1831 in Wibsey, who was in Farnley in 1861 with wife and 3 children (names? - did they have a Ruth. So, the answer (noting that Samuel #6 and Samuel #8 are now combined) is 'yes', they did have a daughter Ruth. And she is of the right age (b ca 1855) - though birthplace varies (but this seems to be a commonplace) - to be the 16yo granddaughter who is with Abram and Ruth in 1871. So that puts paid to earlier thoughts that the Ruth with Abram & Ruth might be the daughter of Samuel #5 - and it leaves us still looking for this Ruth. A couple of other things - (a) Abram & Ruth's daughter Ellen's age in 1871 apparently should be 19, and (b) Abram & Ruth's son Joshua was an Iron Miner in 1851 but a Dyer Wool in 1871.Seeing that career change made me take another look at Samuel #0 (i.e. the unnumbered one, living in Northowram, a coal miner, husband of Ruth GREEN and father of Sharp, William and Grace) given that we didn't like his occupation. We also didn't like his age in 1861 (31 b Shelf) though his age in 1871 (35 b Shelf) was OK (well, as good as that of Samuel #5). However, as mentioned earlier, there is on FreeBMD the death of a Samuel BENN, age 51, in Halifax, Mar qtr 1880 - and Northowram was in Halifax. This death would be appropriate for Samuel #0 if we take his 1861 age - 31. And, given that Ruth describes herself as a widow in 1881, I think Samuel #0 is pretty thoroughly disposed of. So that would just leave Samuel #5 who appeared in 1861 as follows
1861 census RG9 3310 folio 15 North Bierley Yorkshire
Samuel Benn 25 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Worsted weaver
Elizabeth Benn 29 Horton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted weaver
Ruth Benn 6 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Margaret Benn 4 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter
Ann Benn 2 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter
The main trouble with Samuel #5 seems to me to be that the whole family disappears after 1861 (now that we know that this Ruth is not the one with grandparents Abram and Ruth).Perhaps they emigrated '(Or are they just hiding under a very creative transcription in 1871?
JAP
11 September 05
Part 1The other potential Ruth Benn on the 1871 census with her grandparents isis in Horton Yorkshire with her Jowlett grandparents Ruth Benn 15 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Granddaughter Mill hand That Ruth leads you on the 1861 census to a Ruth Benn with her grandparents again (though naturally born not Wibsey but Horton and the Wibsey born Ruth with her parents in Farnley and then in 1871 with her grandfather Abraham but born North Bierley - good luck to anyone still trying to follow this - perhaps it's just a West Yorkshire thing that everyone never seems to put the same birthplace on any census).There are two other potentials on the 1871 census neither quite the right age Ruth Benn abt 1853 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Niece Horton Yorkshire Ruth Ann Benn abt 1858 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Granddaughter North Bierley Yorkshire The only candidate for the second on the 1861 census seems to be Ruth A. born circa 1860 and therefore a move in age of two years. The first I think is Ruth Benns on 1861 with her family in North Bierley. So now no candidates for Ruth on the 1871 census. Ruth could of course be misenumerated or just a missed a singleton somewhere, or potentially married very young, or possibly dead, and before I agree with JAP that the family could have emigrated (which of course they could have and is the easy way out of this maze of Benns and the brain ache it causes) can I ask the question - who was Benjamin?
Regards
Valda
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11 September 05
Part 2 The Benjamin who may or may not have adopted Margaret and Ann, but certainly had children of the right age and was in North Bierley in 1871 with a birthplace of Shelf circa 1837. The 1851 census does not place him as a son of Abraham and Ruth (though at age 14 he could be working away though Samuel their son aged 20 is at home) so at this point he doesn't seem (or is at least proven by the 1851 census) to be connected to the Samuel candidate 6 + 8 who also had a daughter Ruth of the same age and now seems to be the son of Abraham and Ruth. The 1861 census has no Benjamin married with two daughters (in fact it doesn't give you a Benjamin, just as the 1871 census doesn't give you Samuel).Now as I type that statement it suddenly occurs to me both men were of roughly the same age and both born Shelf. Benjamin's wife on the 1871 census was Elizabeth born circa 1832 Braceland Yorkshire (wherever that is, but may be Bursland misread wherever that is, see later census) and Samuel's wife on the 1861 census was Elizabeth born circa 1832 Horton. Perhaps I should have seen the similarities sooner but I had a lot of Samuels to juggle let alone Samuels who might change their name or get misenumerated in another name not even close to Samuel. To remind you this was Benjamin Benn's family in 1871 at Revy Hall North Bierley Yorkshire. Definitely Benjamin on the census page a worsted weaver. Benjamen Benn abt 1837 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Elizabeth Benn abt 1832 Braceland, Yorkshire, Wife Margret Benn abt 1858 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Ann Benn abt 1860 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Zillah Benn abt 1862 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter William Benn abt 1864 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Mary Benn abt 1868 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Martha Benn abt 1869 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter and this was Samuel's in 1861Revey Hall North Bierley Yorkshire - Samuel was a worsted weaver Samuel Benn abt 1836 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Elizabeth Benn abt 1832 Horton, Yorkshire, Wife Ruth Benn abt 1855 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Margaret Benn abt 1857 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Ann Benn abt 1859 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter
Regards
Valda
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11 September 05
Part 3 The hypothesis that both these census entries are of the same man and his family, opens up further possibilities. Looking for the 1871 census family (just in case you don't accept the 1861 census is the same family) in 1881 here they are.
RG10 4457 folio 5677 Kingswood St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire
Elizabeth Benn 49 Bursland, Yorkshire, Head Married
Zilliah Benn 19 North Birley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted weaver
William Benn 17 North Birley, Yorkshire, Son jobber in spinning room
Mary Benn 15 North Birley, Yorkshire, Daughter worsted spinner
Martha Benn 12 North Birley, Yorkshire, Daughter worsted spinner
Joshua Benn 10 North Birley, Yorkshire, Son Ellen Benn 8 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Martha A. Sugden 4 Bradford, Yorkshire, grandaughter and 1891RG12 36 39 folio 2910 Watmough Street Horton Yorkshire
Benn, Elizabeth 59 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married
Benn, Martha 22 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted drawer
Benn, Ellen 18 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted drawer
and in 1901 widowhood!
RG13 4166 folio 11710 Watmough Street Bradford Yorkshire
Thomas Henry Wood 28 Bradford, Yorkshire, Head Married ? Dyers labourer
Ellen Wood 28 Bradford, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Lily Wood 6 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Gladys Wood 5 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Eveline Wood 2 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Percy Llewlyn Wood 1 month Bradford, Yorkshire, Son
Elizabeth Benn 69 Halifax, Yorkshire, Mother-in-law Widow
Now that doesn't stop the possibility that sometime between the birth of the last child Joshua circa 1871 and the 1881 census that Elizabeth's husband Benjamin (or Samuel) died, but she clung to the idea of her married status, which she might do if she really was married but living apart from her husband. It also doesn't completely prove the Elizabeth of 1861 is the Elizabeth of 1871 but a later child's birth certificate or the baptisms of the children in North Bierley would prove it one way or the other, because those records would give the father's name which I think is probably Samuel, proving the census entry of 1871 is a mistake or Samuel was sometimes known as Benjamin (perhaps his father was a Benjamin - there is one in North Bierley in 1861 with a wife called Mary)From the IGISAMUEL BENN Christening 01 JUN 1836 Bradford Father BENJAMIN BENN Mother MARY There are no potential Samuel deaths on the incomplete FreeBMD between 1871 and 1881There is one Benjamin death Benn, Benjamin Record Type Deaths Age at death 41 Quarter September Year 1877 District Halifax County West Riding of Yorkshire West Yorkshire Volume 9a Page 330 Besides Benjamin born Shelf circa 1837 on the 1871 census there are two other Benjamins of the same age in the area Benjamin Benn abt 1838 Northowram Halifax Head Halifax Benjamin Benn abt 1836 Northowram, Yorkshire, Head Northowram On the 1881 census there is only one Benjamin Benn abt 1838 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head 2 Lister St, Halifax, Yorkshire I cannot see a potential Samuel or Benjamin Benn husband to Elizabeth on the 1881 or 1891 censuses or a potential death between 1891 and 1901 from the incomplete FreeBMD index. So at this point I think Samuel candidate number 5 still remains the front runner with the added bonus of the problem of the missing 1871 census potentially resolved. And as a final addition I'm returning to Ruth from FreeBMD Marriages Sep 1873 Benn Ruth Bradford, Y. 9b 42 one of the men was SUGDEN Adam Bradford Y. 9b 42 On the 1881 census Adam is a widower of 26 living alone in Horton (remember there is a Martha A. Sugden aged 4 born Bradford living with her grandmother Elizabeth on the same census)On the 1891 census Adam still a widower is in Horton with his 14 year old daughter Martha E. born Horton. It doesn't completely prove anything - I can't find Ruth Sugden's death registration on FreeBMD to help with an age and help prove it was Ruth Benn who probably married Adam Sugden, but on the 1871 census Adam Sugden was in North Bierley staying with his grandparents, so even though Ruth Benn can't be found on the 1871 census, which is where I came in, Adam is in the right place at the right time to be her potential spouse in 1873.Regards
Valda
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11 September 05
Good heavens I have come on line with a pen and a pencil ready to fight and tussle with Samuel numbers 1 to 8 and to follow your workings to see if I could work out which one was "my" one. And it would appear that you have both been tussling yourself this weekend and the emerging consensus is that Samuel is candidate number 5, husband of Elizabeth and father of Ruth, Margaret, Ann, and possibly Zillah, William, Mary Martha, Joshua and Ellen. This being the case he left the family home after 1873 when Ellen was born and ultimately went off to live in Eccleshill where he took up with Eliza, and had a further child John Wilson Benn in 1881 at the time of the census. This relationship was short lived as Eliza married John Long in late 1884.He then moved to Windhill in time for the 1891 census where he is a lodger living alone and where he died in September of pernicious anaemia. It is rather hard for me to think of him leaving 9 children but perhaps he went off where the work was and perhaps he and Eliza, herself having been recently widowed and with two small children, found themselves living in shared accommodation where the inevitable happened. Maybe that is why they were recorded as Master and wife instead of Head and wife because they were lodgers together in some way. And maybe it was only when John Wilson Benn was born that Elizabeth severed her relationship with Samuel, perhaps she didn't know he was doing anything other than looking for work when he went - I cant think she ever had him back because he died a lodger and his landlady registered the death, not his wife. He was unemployed in 1881 on the census, still looking for work or had a job and lost it? My family are rather unsalubrious I feel. This scenario if correct brings me to a closer understanding of how it was that my great grandfather was sent away as a baby and brought up elsewhere, never to know his birth family. I have to think it was because of the scandal and the poverty of being a single mother with a child whose father was in no position to recognise him and who she may not even have cared for very much. So he went off to live with persons unknown to me but who were presumably close enough to Eliza to witness her marriage to John Long. I am going to read it all through and make notes anyway so that I can follow all your twists and turns and then perhaps it is time to make a decision! Thank you for spending such a long time and so much effort on someone else's family, I do hope though that you have enjoyed the thrill of the chase!
Best wishes Louise
PS I will order any birth certificates you suggest - Ellen the youngest? her marriage to Thomas Henry Wood?
11 September 05
And in answer to my very first queries Eliza Lister was born in 1856, daughter of JDL and Elizabeth (Betty) Widdup. Betty Widdup's father is John Widdup and he comes from what looks to me like a reasonably clear line going back a few generations in Kildwick. We don’t know why, where or exactly when Betty was born in Scotland but I may have to live with that. Eliza now has lots of brothers and sisters and I know about some of their own families now too. So she is pretty much sorted out. John Wilson Benn's attestation papers may make mention of the family that cared for him, or have a home address that might help with where he was in 1891. It occurs to me that he may have had a different surname until he enlisted when perhaps he found out his own father's name. So he might be hiding on the census and I might be able to find him after I have seen his army records. I am delighted at these major breakthroughs and truly thank you for your hard work.
Louise
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11 September 05
Just to tidy up Elizabeth. I think this is probably her. From FreeBMD Benn, Elizabeth Record Type Deaths Age at death 69 Quarter June Year 1901 District Bradford County West Riding of Yorkshire Volume 9b Page 97 Very convenient just holding out for the 1901 census like that. Her death certificate might say widow of Samuel but then again it might not. The hypothsis once JAP has combed through it, only gives you a candidate for your Samuel, it doesn't prove it is him, though what it does also prove is that all the others found so far aren't him, which again helps to make it more likely that he is the one. I can't think of any record left other than a maintenance claim for John Wilson Benn in the quarter sessions that would help you prove that it is him. I suppose you could check Samuel's burial, which I would expect to be in the nearest cemetery in a common grave, but just in case a member of his family buried him in a family plot (not necessarily his direct family) it might be worth searching for. You could check poor law records to see if through illness he passed through the system at anytime after the 1871 census. The symptoms for pernicious anaemia are breathlessness, tiredness, dizziness, rapid weak pulse rate, palpitations – irregular or strong heartbeats, headaches, pale skin As well as the symptoms of anaemia, vitamin B12 deficiency may cause neurological symptoms such as inflammation of the nerves (neuritis) which can affect movement and sensation, tinnitus (ringing in the ears), colour blindness, lightheadedness, confusion, depression, poor concentration and forgetfulness. There may also be loss of appetite, diarrhoea and weight loss. Any of which over the years could have increasingly brought Samuel in contact with the workhouse infirmary. You also still have why John Benn had the middle name of Wilson (or was it William and he changed it to Wilson?) to explain just in case it might prove helpful. Plus as an aside and just because he represents a loose end, no proof that Thomas Vipond actually died but didn't leave the marriage fairly soon after Ellen's birth in 1873 if not before - Eliza was very young to be married and it might have been the equivalent of a shotgun affair (December 1872 quarter marriage, birth June quarter 1873).Finally does Doughty in the child Walter Vipond's middle name, while we are in middle names - the child with no father named on his birth certificate in 1879 - quite a gap 1873 to 1879 for Thomas Vipond to have lingered, give some indication of his parentage. In which case does this make the use of Wilson significant in anyway for Samuel or is it just a more common name use in Yorkshire to use Wilson as a Christian name? It is possible that John Wilson Benn was in the family home in 1891 but missed off the census, or he was staying somewhere else that night and missed off the census there because it was presumed he would be counted at home. I don't think you actually have any proof other than he is missing from the 1891 census and his refusal to talk about his childhood to state that he had left home by 1891 or earlier. His step father may have been more than happy to exclude him from the information he gave to the enumerator. There is one John Benn born Bradford circa 1881 who is a boarder on the 1901 census and doesn't appear on the 1891 census (but then that might be the usual change of birthplace common in West Yorkshire to any one called Benn)!!
Regards
Valda
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11 September 05
Valda, thanks for Elizabeth's death record and the description of Samuel's illness. A couple of thoughts before bedtime Re Thomas' death - when Eliza married John Long in 1884 they were both described as widowed. One has to hope he did die, otherwise she was a bigamist on top of everything else! I will have a look for his death certificate. He was a slater so I always imagined that he fell off a roof. Re John Wilson Benn's middle name. I can ask for the certificate again, this time as a photocopy rather than a recreation although am loathe to pay twice for the same thing. Perhaps if I sent a copy of the certificate to Bradford Superintendent Registrar and asked them to check it, they could tell me if it said Wilson or William. I fancy it was Wilson if only because they all had middle names that were surnames and also because Eliza had a Wilson witness at her wedding to John Long. I have already wandered round the graveyard in Windhill to no avail I am afraid. I was hoping that Eliza's family history would contain a Doughty but we have not found one so far. As to where my GGrandfather John Wilson Benn was in 1891, I can only reiterate the family story that he was a foundling brought up by a family close to the Hiltons whose daughter he married and we know they lived in Scarborough. I had an abortive attempt at finding them in another link on the North Riding pages a few months ago. I cannot believe that he was still at home at age 10 yet still happy to call himself a foundling. I should also tell you that I have been in contact with the grandson of Ellen Vipond his older sister and they had never heard of John Wilson Benn, because Ellen never mentioned him to them. Anyway, if Ellen never mentioned him, even in passing, then I don’t see how he was still around when she was 18 - which she would have been in 1891.I accept that I have no proof, but still believe he is going to turn up in Scarborough in the end. The poor law records sound like a great option, where would I look for them?
Best wishes and goodnight
Louise
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12 September 05
Hi Louise, I'll think about Valda's great discoveries and thoughts about Samuel/Benjamin later but I've been back to the beginning and your reference to the thread re WILSONs and HILTONs of Scarborough at
http//www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,69234.0.html
But before moving on to that, I was thinking about Thomas Doughty VIPOND. As no father was named on his birth cert, it suggests (though of course does not prove) that (a) Thomas VIPOND was not his father, and (b) Thomas VIPOND was dead (I thought that a living husband was automatically assumed to be the father). I suppose you have been through the full index (not just FreeBMD) for appropriate deaths for Thomas? Incidentally, are Ellen's descendants aware of Thomas Doughty )It also occurs to me that the death certificate of Thomas Doughty VIPOND in the Mar qtr 1882 might be of interest (of course it might not!) - who was the informant, what was the address. Also his burial. It has crossed my mind that perhaps the boot was on the other foot i.e. Eliza did not tire of Samuel but vice versa, he rejected her, and she had no choice but to give up baby John in order to survive. Or even if he did not, remember that Samuel BENN was unemployed in 1881 - and perhaps already unwell. And yes, definitely a good idea to follow up on John's birth cert to see whether it actually said Wilson rather than William. Back to the WILSON/HILTON connexion. Perhaps following it up may help the whole search? On the other thread, you said that family folklore was that John Wilson/William BENN, as a baby, had been taken in by a WILSON family and that John had grown up as a WILSON but had come to believe by the time of his marriage that he was a BENN, son of Samuel - his name being given as John Wilson BENN and father as Samuel BENN deceased. The marriage was in 1903 in Scarborough to Daisy Kate HILTON John was a soldier with the Northumberland Fusiliers and was resident in Lotts Yard, Scarborough (might be worth a look at who was living in Lotts Yard in 1901- drawing a long bow, I know!).Their children were named Wilson BENN. Another version of the folklore was that John changed his middle name to Wilson in recognition of the parent(s) who had brought him up. You said that family folklore was that the WILSON family had connexions with the HILTON family that John eventually married into in 1903 and an Ethel WILSON aged 1 was with the HILTON family in Throxenbury Barracks, Scarborough in 1891 - Ethel May WILSON was the daughter of Charles WILSON, a soldier at nearby Throxenbury Barracks, and wife Annie FLYNN. This might or might not be the relevant WILSON family (it's not an uncommon name). A family of a Charles WILSON, wife Annie has been found in 1891 (no John with them) but this Charles is a publican (might have left the army after Ethel's birth). You also said that the witnesses at Eliza's 1884 marriage to John LONG were ladies named HILTON (initial possibly R/N/A) and E WILSON (how did you know they were females). Perhaps they can be traced. Also, in 1891, at 105 Church St, Manningham (part of the Bradford registration district) there was a Nellie WILSON head wid 48 silk weaver b.Kirkheaton with a son Jno Wm 10 b.Bradford and boarder Nellie SENTONE 20 b Lincolnshire. Nellie had been at the same address in 1881 with 38yo husband Robert, a 13yo son Tiras (Thomas?) and Robert's mother Jane 65 b Idle. Could Nellie WILSON (Nellie often a pet name for Ellen) be the E WILSON of Eliza's 1884 marriage certificate? There's a possible Bradford death for Robert on FreeBMD - Robert Rawnsley WILSON, 45, Jun qtr 1888. Jno Wm was not in the 1881 census with them - of course he might have been born after the date of the census. Have you found the birth of a possible John William WILSON to Robert and Nellie? Do you have Nellie in 1901?Let's hope John's army papers can be found and are helpful. Not to mention any Poor Law papers relating to Samuel or to Eliza.
JAP
Here's a fascinating snippet. There are only 7 HILTONs in Bradford in 1881. And one is Ann HILTON Might be no connexion (just sheer coincidence) but fascinating.
RG11/4446, Folio 12, Page 18
GAUKROGER Abraham, Head, 43, Dyer, b Sowerby Bridge Do
Eliza Ann, Wife, 50, Housekeeper, b do
HILTON Ann Step Daur, 22, Unemployed, b do
Do Mary, Step Daur, 17, Rover in Factory, b do
Do Betsy, Step Daur, 14, Spinner in Factory, b do
The marriage of Ann Dyson HILTON in Bradford in 1889 is on FreeBMD - but is no help. Males on the page are Joseph CROSSLAND and Alfred Ernest TAYLOR Ann Dyson HILTON is probably a red herring. There's the marriage of an Eliza Ann DYSON on FreeBMD - Halifax, 1852 - and with an Irwell HILTON on the same page
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12 September 05
Hi Valda, Brilliant idea that Samuel might have been listed as Benjamin on the 1871. Looking back, I think that you just about came to that back on page 1!Both being at Revy/Revey Hall - Samuel the head in 1861, Benjamin the head in 1871 - is very telling. I think that Revy Hall was mentioned in earlier postings for Benjamin in 1871 but not for Samuel in 1861. And Elizabeth still being married in 1891 but a widow in 1901 is helpful. Martha A SUGDEN, age 4 in 1881 I had completely forgotten about. That's a good link. I looked through all the possible marriages for Ruth BENN yesterday and tried her in the 1881 census with each male on the same page without success. But I was looking for Ruth SUGDEN in the household of Adam SUGDEN but it seems as though poor Ruth had died given the 26yo widower Adam SUGDEN living alone in 1881.Braceland and Bursland defeat me - nothing on Genuki and Old Maps is down for maintenance. Perhaps 'dave the tyke' can help? Perhaps the enumerator got Samuel mixed up with the older Benjamin BENN (b ca 1797 Shelf) who, with wife Mary, was also living in North Bierley? If LDS submissions about births to a Benjamin BENN and a Mary are correct, the Samuel recorded to parents of these names isn't #5 (although they might have had a second unrecorded child of the same name). There are two Benjamin/Mary marriages unfortunately. Benjamin BENN m Mary HARRISON 1820 Halifax and Benjamin BENN m Mary WHITE 1834 Bradford (possibly two marriages of the same man?).Children in the IGI to a Benjamin BENN and a Mary are*Jane BEN bap Sep 1820, Methodist New Connexion, Amblerthorn*David BENN b Jun, bap Aug 1820, Whichfield Wesleyan Methodist, Shelf*Hannah BENN b May, bap Jul 1823, Whichfield Wesleyan Methodist, Shelf*Sarah BENN bap 15 Oct 1834, Bradford (also an LDS submission for the birth of a Sarah to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford as 1826) *Thomas BENN bap 15 Oct 1834, Bradford*Samuel BENN bap 1 Jun 1836, Bradford (also an LDS submission for the birth of a Samuel to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford as 1828)*William BENN bap 1 Jun 1836, Bradford (also an LDS submission for the birth of a William to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford as 1830)*LDS also has the birth of an Esther to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford in 1837*LDS also has the birth of a Joseph in 1839 (year only given) to a Benjamin and Mary in Clayton - which was also in Bradford.
Cheers,
JAP
14 September 05
Hi Listers, (and Dyson Listers?)I was away for 2 days so I've missed 2 pages of postings. First thank you Louise for the information that you posted. I recognise one or two names in there so I will have to study it closely later. Braceland - could that be Barkisland? a suburb of Halifax that is on the far side of Halifax from Shelf etc. and would be aprox 12 miles from Wibsey. Place names - Getting it into perspective If you imagine Bradford center as the center of a clock then coming outwards at 7 o'clock we have Little Horton, Wibsey (part of North Bierley), Buttershaw, Shelf. and over the watershed into Halifax (Northowram side and not far from Coley) Coming out at 8 o'clock we have Horton (also known as Great Horton to differentiate from Little Horton) Clayton (Clayton-by-Bradford) and Queensbury (Queenshead) again over the watershed to Halifax (Boothtown side). Parish boundaries that have existed since the Middle ages, are fairly clear in their definition, many of them are still walked by the church elders once a year to 'mark their territory' as it were. 'Political' boundaries on the other hand vary from administration to administration. So a place that was in Shelf for one census could theoretically, find itself in North Bierley for the next. Indeed Shelf and Queensbury are now both administered by Bradford. In the first half of the 19th C most of the places mentioned earlier were villages (hence Clayton-by-Bradford) but later in the Century weaving had developed from a cottage industry to factory production the coal industry and Iron and Steel works at Low Moor (again just a stones throw away from Wibsey) were found alongside the traditional weaving but many of the old pits were being worked out. Wibsey in 1870 was criss-crossed by railway lines that took the iron ore and coal from the mines and quarries to Low Moor - Coming from Bradford at 6 o'clock we have West Bowling, Low Moor and then Wyke. Gradually the villages became joined to one-another by housing and again this makes it difficult to differentiate the enumeration district boundaries. Lastly Revy/Revey Hall There is a road in Wibsey called Reevy Road I feel sure that this is the same place I hope that these little snippets may be of use.
Dave
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14 September 05
Dave (pun is excused!) and all, Sometimes I fear I get so caught up in other people's genealogical puzzles that I forget about my own! A couple of certificates have just arrived for deaths of my Gggmother, Mary (TRIPPIT) WOODCOCK and her father, my Ggggfather, George TRIPPIT - both in Barrow in Furness. But as I was entering them into my genealogical program I was reminded that(a) Gggma Mary's brother Joseph TRIPPIT was born 1838 in Low Moor (b) Gggma Mary's husband, Joseph WOODCOCK, was born in Shelf ca 1834 (1861 census his birthplace is Shelf, and 1871, 1881 and 1891 it is Halifax). (Perhaps the chap in the IGI, bap 1833 in Wibsey, son of Thomas and Elizabeth?) My Ggfather, Samuel TRIPPIT, was Mary's illegitimate son born in Hunslet nr Leeds in 1848. In 1851 he appears in Hunslet with his grandparents (George b Attercliffe nr Sheffield, and Jane/Mary b Hunslet), his mother Mary (b Rawmarsh), and Mary's brother and sister Joseph b Low Moor and Elizabeth b Hunslet.Gggma Mary (aged about 23) married Joseph WOODCOCK (aged about 18 from age in 1861-1891 censuses) in 1852 in Leeds. Joseph WOODCOCK and Gggma Mary had Elizabeth A b Leeds 1854, Thomas b Low Moor1857, and George E b Low Moor1859. In 1861 they are together in Chadderton Lancashire plus my Ggpa Samuel who is recorded as Samuel WOODCOCK(sic), b Leeds, age 12, Joseph's son(sic).Joseph, Mary, Thomas, George, and daughter Anne b Farnley ca 1861 are together in Barrow in Furness in 1871. My Ggpa Samuel TRIPPIT has married Ggma Anne Elizabeth BROWNELL in 1868 in Sheffield. They haven't been found in 1871 - and they emigrated to New Zealand in 1875 with their children including my Gma Ada TRIPPIT who was born in Barrow in Furness (just recently found that - she knew she was born in Sheffield!).I am now looking at Shelfand Low Moorthrough different eyes!
JAP
15 September 05
Judy, I cannot believe you have not mentioned this before. So we had family in the same place. Joseph Woodcock, the second husband of your Great Great Grandma was born in the same village as my Samuel Benn only a couple of years before. Obviously they knew each other, probably ran round the streets together in a big group at some point. How fabulous. Can I utilise my new Bradford 1851 census cd for you in any way?T hey moved about a bit didn't they, the Woodcock family, I find that rather strange really. You don't say what Joseph and Samuel did for a living, I would imagine the answer lies there. Chadderton in Lancashire isn't quite such a big move from Low Moor, Bradford. Chadderton (now part of a greater Manchester sprawl and close to Oldham) is only just in Lancashire from Yorkshire but they would have had to face a certain amount of leg-pulling from their friends, there is an ancient rivalry between the two counties, and it is possible that they weren't welcomed very warmly either. Perhaps that is why they made the next move, a really big distance to Barrow in Furness. Barrow is one of the least lovely towns on the Cumbrian coast, an industrial town that is quite hard to get to. I don't think they would have been so unfriendly though. Was Joseph a ship-builder? And then Samuel met a Sheffield lass, again this is a big long way away. I cannot imagine what he was doing so far from Barrow, unless of course he was a steel worker. Barrow and Sheffield were the two biggest steel areas in England I should think. http//www.visitcumbria.com/sl/barrow.htmThis link is quite good looking at the history of the town as it would have been before Ada and her parents emigrated. Let me know if I can look anything up for you, or take a trip to take photographs. Chadderton is very near where my bloke's mum lives for instance and I can be in Low Moor and Shelf this weekend, I will be passing very close on my way home to see my parents.
Best wishes
Louise
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15 September 05
Please could one of you look up Ellen Benn's birth reference in circa 1872and her marriage reference circa 1891 - 1895ish, married to Thomas Henry Wood Also the birth reference for Joshua Benn circa 1871.I shall send off for these to find out who their father was recorded as, Samuel or Benjamin. The more I think about the 1871 census, the more I really like the idea of the enumerator asking "and who is the father? who is the senior Mr Benn?" and someone, Elizabeth perhaps saying "Benjamin", because he was the father she thought of, just not the father the enumerator had in mind. Lots more information from you all for me to take in, but I feel we need to sort out the Benjamin/Samuel thing first before I move forward with anything else. Incidentally I note that there was a Samuel, son of Benjamin and Mary, in my notes from non-conformist records displayed earlier, who "died in Shelf 1857 aged 26.Benjamin (above) died 7th January 1864 aged 67Mary (wife of above) died 9th July 1894 aged 92"This would have made him born 1831. This could have been candidate 6 who was not on the 1861 census or subsequent ones. However, that being the case, who was the Samuel son of Abraham and Ruth that we already thought was candidate 6 and had merged with candidate 8 who was still alive in 1881. Unfortunately the Benjamin above who died in 1864 was born in 1797, as was the man on the 1871 census. So not only were the sons born very close together in age but the fathers were too. This is a toughie at every level. I am muddying the waters, I will stop now. I might print all these pages off and take them on the train to London with me next week, then I can have another go at understanding it all as I travel.
Best wishes and thanks
Louise
15 September 05
Dear Louise, Very very simple answer to why I hadn't mentioned it before - I hadn't twigged!!I'd totally forgotten that poor Mary TRIPPIT's first and only husband Joseph WOODCOCK was born in Shelf! Let's not mince words Joseph WOODCOCK was her first husband but, presumably - especially given Joe's age (only 18 when he married Mary in 1852) - not the father of my illegitimate Ggpa Samuel TRIPPIT. Samuel TRIPPIT, b 1848, was Mary TRIPPIT's first child - Joseph WOODCOCK would only have been 14 then!!Only when I went to enter the newly-arrived certificates in my genie program did the penny drop. And obviously this was too much for my desktop because it has played silly b****rs and has gone back to some sort of square one this morning. I'm sure I did nothing to cause this. So I'm now on the resuscitated laptop. But it died months ago (not the hard disk but the computer) and the hard disk wasn't resuscitated into another laptop until recently (visit of one of my two overseas resident computer boffin sons). So, unless I can find some miracle re the desktop (with no in-house expertise) I'm going to have a BIG GAP. Stupid me! You would have to know that, last night (truly it was only last night), I thought that I must transfer everything across from the desktop to the laptop - but decided to wait until today... I swear, these computers can read one's mind. I think I can hear the cackling ...As the pundits say - back up, back up, back up ...One certainly pays the price for not doing so. I do like the idea of your Sam and my Mary's Joe terrorizing Shelf in the local gang of kids! Samuel TRIPPIT was a forgeman like his father George, and Joseph WOODCOCK was also a forgeman.
All the best,JAP/Judy
PS
When my Samuel married in Sheffield in 1868 his father was listed as Joseph TRIPPIT boilermaker. In NZ his wife Anne Elizabeth BROWNELL listed Samuel as illegitimate.
15 September 05
Well as it happens I have a postcard of the furnace at Shelf taken Cir. 1908 so it is quite possible that that was where your ancestors worked. Is it possible to attach it to this site? Answers in very simple computer jargon please!! Most of my ancestors from around 1850-80 and from this area were putting X's on their marriage certificates. So the enumerator would have filled out the form himself. If he infact put the father’s name - and I support this theory - no one would have been any the wiser. It is possible that he wrote Benjamin as Ben superscript m and that could easily be mistaken for Benn or visa versa. Have you looked at the actual census return? My Mark(e) Benn was born in Witchfield, Shelf 1822. A Quarryman. Witchfield is at one end of Cooper Lane, the other end is in Horton (Horton Bank Top to be precise). Do you have more precise locations for your ancestors within Shelf? A bit of info for our more distant cousins. Shelf is/was a sparsely populated but sprawling community in a general sort of way, whereas Wibsey is small and densely populated. Wibsey still retains a bit of village atmosphere (As do Queensbury and Clayton). There is a thin strip of green that is almost continuous between these places and Bradford and all of them lie outside the Bradford Ring Road, further isolating them from the ever growing immigrant communities and industrial Bradford itself.
Dave
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16 September 05
JAP Have you had a look for a boilermaker named Joseph Trippit? Or have you assumed that this was a reference to Joseph Woodcock? I don't see why a 14 year old boy could not have fathered a child but I do think that if he had they would not have waited 4 further years to get married when 2 (or fewer?) would have done. So I agree with you that JW is probably not Sam's father, but maybe there really was a Joseph Trippit, and by the time Sam was old enough to be married, JT had become a boiler maker if he wasn't already (I'm thinking he was a teenage father).I'm really sorry to hear about your PC problems. Do you keep your records on paper too so that you can transfer information? I am shuddering on your behalf.
Best wishes
Louise
PS I shall pop to Shelf on Saturday
16 September 05
Well as it happens I have a postcard of the furnace at Shelf taken Cir. 1908 so it is quite possible that that was where your ancestors worked. Is it possible to attach it to this site? Answers in very simple computer jargon please!! Dave, personally I don’t know where in Shelf my Samuel Benn came from, if at all, JAP might know more on her side. To attach the postcard of the furnace you would need to scan it and then save it as a JPEG. You would need to make sure that the opened image was not more than about 5" square otherwise it won’t fit on the screen or in the box provided. To get it to this size you open it after scanning it and saving it and look for any button or tool called "re-size" .When you have it small enough it will also consist of a correspondingly smaller number of kbs. Often when people first scan and send photos they are huge and if fully opened would be a metre square, they consist of 1 megabyte and are far too big and take ages to send or receive, it is a common mistake. They are that big because they are intensely detailed but it is not necessary in this kind of forum to see every hair on the chin. You don’t really want anything bigger than about 300kbOnce resized you can attach your image by replying to a message and then going to the second button along on the bottom row of the colourful grey boxes above the place you type. It is a tiny picture of a tiny picture. Once you have clicked this you will be asked to browse your hard drive to find the place where you saved your scanned postcard and then click to attach it and send it. I don’t know the precise instructions but it will be pretty straightforward. Have a go, good luck
Louise
PS there are tips on how to do this on the techie pages in the common room
17 September 05
Hi Louise, Nice of you to try to give Samuel a named father! I suspect the name of Joseph TRIPPIT (dec), Boilermaker was just Samuel trying to make things look better at the time of his marriage. Perhaps his wife Annie didn't know at the time that he was illegitimate. Or perhaps she did, but they didn't want to tell her parents. And I'd like to think that that there was nothing sinister about him picking the name of his uncle (his mother's brother!). When Samuel died of Phthisis in New Zealand at the age of 29 (leaving his wife with 6 children aged under 10 and another on the way), his wife was the informant (she signed her name). The section on parents of the deceased lists(1) Illegitimate(2) Mary Trippit (3) (blank)The certificate says that he had been in NZ for 3 years, and gives his birthplace as Oldham Lancashire. Actually it was Hunslet nr Leeds - but in the 1861 census Samuel was in Chadderton nr Oldham (with his mother, stepfather Joseph WOODCOCK, and half-siblings) so either Annie didn't know that Samuel hadn't been born there, or she was confused.
J
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20 September 05
Hi,this is my 99th and last attempt to attach a photo. I am not sure who has the copyright to this postcard, I got it from a web site so no comercial useage please.
20 September 05
Apparently we are not allowed to post photos onto the look-up board so I wasted a lot of time for nothing. Does anyone have any Benn BMD certs or photos or any articles of interest that they can pass on? or other likely ancestors from the Shelf / Wibsey region? I think we may have to open a forum on a different board to make use of them. I have the following interests in the area and bits and bats of info on each of them Bland, Greenwood Bland, Ellis, Benn, Woodhead, Priestley, Illingworth, Brear, Bateman, Crossley, Hepworth, Holdsworth, Stocks, Tordoff, Flathers, Pearson, Yeadon, Dewhirst, Ormandroyd, Wilman, Tate and Sharp. What do you guys think? I don't want to Hijack your board.
Regards
Dave
21 September 05
Dear Dave I am not worried about your hijacking my thread and what you suggest sounds like a good idea. However, I don’t think this is the right place for you to post your information as it might be missed. You should go to the general pages for the West Riding and set up your own thread, put it all in there with a catchy title. I will be happy to contribute to it for a start Dear Valda and Judy I went to the Records Office in Kew yesterday, although had less time there than I had hoped. I found some papers relating to John Wilson Benn but was not able to copy them in the time permitting. I have made a note so that I can arrange for their staff to take copies for me at some point. WO364 showed John Wilson Benn's pensioning out papers in 1914 - he must not have fancied being in the war I think, too old perhaps by then? I know he carried on as a volunteer in Singapore, I think that is like the TA more or less. Anyway, the important thing is that he joined up as John Wilson. The Benn was added later by hand. He did not join up as John W Wilson, just John Wilson. This is very exciting as apart from anything else it shows he did not know that he was "adopted" or if he did, he did not know his father's name. As I say I was not able to copy out the papers but he seemed to have started his army activities in Jan 1899 when he was 17 years and 11 months - I expect his "parents" told him the truth when he was 18, or 21, I will know more when I get the copies and can work out when it was that his name changed. It might back up that part of the family story - that he was called Wilson because of his adopted parents, rather than because it was his actual name - but I won’t know until I (remember to) get in touch with the Superintendent Registrar to confirm what it does say on his birth certificate. As promised I spent a few hours on the train going through all the papers from this thread. I was excited to re-read the information about Nellie Wilson and her child - I will be having a look on FreeBMD and 1837online to see if I can find any registrations for any John W Wilsons - although I am now wondering again. If he signed up as John Wilson (no middle name) then perhaps he did not know he had a middle name and did not use it - we know he did have one from his birth certificate, although not what it was as yet. But if he didn’t use it in the army then would his "mother" have used it on the census? Who knows, I like the feel of her though, of that family unit. (Does anyone else allow gut feeling and instinct to help them out with their genealogy?)I also re-examined Samuel Benn and have decided that in all probability, even if he is the husband of Elizabeth and father of all those children, I am pretty sure he is not the son of Benjamin and Mary - those on a nearby farm. They definitely feature in my regurgitated "old" notes as the Buttershaw people whose son Samuel died in 1857.So my Sam is someone else's child. Not exactly back to square one but not greatI was not able to go to Shelf in the end, but will go soon-ish
Best wishes
Louise
PS I wonder if it is at all possible that you are able to look up the references I asked about before. I know you are busy and I do thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you have been able to do for me before. If you cannot look them up then I will put up a separate request. Please could one of you look up Ellen Benn's birth reference in circa 1872and her marriage reference circa 1891 - 1895ish, married to Thomas Henry Wood Also the birth reference for Joshua Benn circa 1871.Then I can find out whether their father is Benjamin or Samuel.PPS I was thinking yesterday about why Samuel became Benjamin, if he did. I wondered if the enumerator asked "What is the name of the head of house" to be told "Benn", "Ben?" says he, "Benn" confirms the resident. "Ben what?" says the enumerator, "Oh, just Benn" says the resident. Hence "Ben Benn" Just an idea
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21 September 05
Apparently we are not allowed to post photos onto the look-up board so I wasted a lot of time for nothing. Dave
I am really sorry about that, I did not know - all the more reason to put it on the general board, forgive me
21 September 05
Louise, I was kicking myself for time wasting, as I get older I seem to have less and less to spare. I notice now there is a part of this site somewhere for listing interests. Middle names - My ancestors were called Greenwood Bland - someone forgot to get married back in Haworth early 1800's, anyway on many of the census returns the family is listed as Greenwood and not as Bland, could the same be true for Wilson? just a thought Valda, America via Canada?
Best regards
Dave
21 September 05
I have had a look on FreeBMD for the birth of a John Wilson (any or no middle initial) in Bradford from March quarter 1880 to Dec quarter 1881, hoping to identify anyone who could be John W Wilson aged 10 on the census in Manningham with Nellie. There are only two - because 1881 has not been entered onto FreeBMD yet. Sept Quarter 1880 Bradford 9b 82John William Wilson Dec Quarter 1880 Bradford 9b 166John Francis W Wilson I think the first one is probably the son of Nellie, although I don’t much want to spend £7.50 proving it. So, I don’t think he is my John. Perhaps I need to find a John Wilson in 1891 with no middle initial? I made a note on the train to reply concerning how I knew that Eliza's witnesses were women. I thought about it and concluded that I don't know, for some reason I just assumed, which is not good enough, especially as generally witnesses are one of each!
Best wishes
Louise
22 September 05
Hi Louise, But Nellie remains in contention as a possibility for the adoptive mother of your John. Whether or not John William WILSON b Sep qtr 1880 in Bradford is a son of Robert and Nellie WILSON we can't even begin to guess. But, if he were, one would surely expect him to be with them in the 1881 census - and he is NOT. Also note that a John William WILSON died Mar qtr 1881 aged 0 in Bradford. The important thing is that there is no baby John with Robert and Nellie WILSON in the 1881 census (3/4 Apr), but there is a 10yo John W WILSON with the widowed Nellie in 1891 (5/6 Apr). Yes, it's entirely possible (perhaps very likely) that 10yo John in the 1891 census isa biological son of Nellie's with age a bit out (to explain why he doesn't appear in 1881) - but there's also a possibility that he is adopted and is your John. Just a reminder 1881, 105 Church St, Manningham, York WILSON Robt. R WILSON, Head, 38, b Idle, Sewing Machine Repairer Do Nelly, Wife, 38, b Kirkheaton, Silk Weaver Do Tiras (sic), Son, 15, b Bradford, employed by father Do Jane, Mother, 65, b Idle (and occupation listed as 'Nothing'!) 1888 - a Robert Rawnsley WILSON, 45, d Jun qtr in Bradford (possibly/probably Nellie's husband )1891, 105 Church St, Manningham WILSON Nellie, Head, Widow, 48, b Kirkheaton, Silk Weaver Do Jno Wm, Son, 10, b Bradford and a boarder, Nellie SENTONE, unmarried, 20, b Lincolnshire, a Silk weaver I don't think we've found Nellie WILSON in 1901 yet? Valda, would you be able to find her? It would be good to have that information (especially if, say, she'd moved to Scarborough!). JAPPS Louise, I think you were going to get a birth cert for one of the younger children listed with 'Benjamin' BENN and Elizabeth in 1871 to check out the forename of the father (i.e. was 'Benjamin' really Benjamin or was he Samuel).
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22 September 05
I'd looked at Nellie briefly and was going to come back to her when I had more time. I'd try to see whether either going back or forward I could connect her in anyway. Naturally if you go back she does the usual thing and presents herself as born somewhere completely different. In 1871 Lincoln's Arms 52 North Wing? Bradford Yorkshire Robert R Wilson 29 Idle, Yorkshire, Head Beerseller and lamplighter Ellen Wilson 29 Yeadon, Yorkshire, Wife The interesting thing about the 1871 census is no son as in the 1881 census. I'd first thought their son's name must be Siras but it is actually Tiras. WILSON, Tiras 1888 June Marriages Bradford Walker, Cora 1888 June Marriages Bradford or BENTHAM, Maud Marian 1888 June Marriages Bradford On FreeBMD these are the only Tiras events for Bradford - all Wilsons Wilson, Tiras 1857 June Deaths Bradford WILSON, Tiras 1888 June Marriages Bradford Wilson, Tiras 1891 September Births Bradford You would think finding Tiras, as a Wilson or anything else would be a piece of cake on the 1891 or 1901 censuses but it isn't. He could of course just been missed off the 1871 census - I can't find a Tiras on that either. His age could be wrong on the 1881 census (its actually given as 13 not 15) but can't be out to far as he is down as employed by father. No problem finding Robert on the 1861 census in Wapping Road Bradford - wirer, with widowed mother Jane (maybe husband was Tiras?) and sister Harriet. Can't of course find Ellen/Nelly/Nellie or even Helen born Kirkheaton/Yeadon or somewhere else because I can't find a marriage for her, so I don't know who she is. It also makes finding her on the 1901 census, presuming she hasn't remarried or died as Nelly/Nellie/Ellen etc more tricky. However I can't see her under any surname variation and that's where I stopped previously. However I've made a new stab at Tiras and found him and wife Cora on the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Connecticut U.S. with an emigration date of circa 1890/1, with son Fred R. born England not quite sure of age. I also found what looks to be them on the 1900 census, son Frederick aged 11. Which deadends Tiras for Scarborough and opens up the possibility (I can't find any emigration records for the family) that he took Nellie and John with him to America. On the plus side Tiras remains a possibility as an adopted child.
Regards
Valda
22 September 05
As soon as I'd shut down the machine I thought I'm just rushing this I haven't closed the circle tightenly enough to make that last statement and I haven't checked through what I'm rushing. The obvious thing was to check for Jane Wilson on the 1871 census to see whether she had any grandchildren staying with her and she does, not unsurprisingly transcribed as Siras but Tiras on the actual page itself. Jane is also with her husband Joseph, so I checked back to the 1861 census and though she is head of house it clearly says married. - so another rush. Next time I'll wait to reply when I've really got the time to do this properly.
Regards
Valda
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22 September 05
A few changes and updates in blue Good morning ladies JAP, thanks for sweeping the cobwebs out of my head. I knew there was something about John W Wilson that I had to get my head round in terms of time scales but I failed I am afraid. As you point out, if JWW was Nellie's own son then he only had about a day to be born in (assuming he wasn't in actual fact "9 and nearly 10, so you might as well put 10 down").Unfortunately 1881 birth registrations do not appear on FreeBMD yet so I cannot look to see if there are any other possibilities. So, if only because JWW was not on the 1881 census but was on the 1891 census, he is a good bet. Also I note the Wilsons lived in Manningham which is where John Wilson Benn told his children he came from. Perhaps I will have to wait until FreeBMD have caught up before I can satisfy myself (and you) that there are no other contenders for JWW.I do want to order certificates for Samuel/Benjamin's younger children to see who their father is named as. I have had a look on FreeBMD for registration references for Ellen in particular, who was born circa 1872 and have found only one - Bradford Sept 1872 9b 142.Then I had a look for her marriage certificate reference - she married Thomas Henry Wood. If you remember Valda found the married couple on the 1901 census and Elizabeth Benn widow living with them. I have only found one reference for that marriage which is March 1894 9b 124.Would you be able to check these on your own source to see if there are any other possibilities for these events before I send off for them? Thanks very much Valda (your post just came in while I was composing this) - good work with Tiras. I note on Google that Tiras was the son of Japheth and the grandson of Noah. I accept that all my family were compulsive liars about where they were born but Kirkheaton really is nowhere near Yeadon, by any stretch of the imagination. I also wonder about someone who sold beer and lit lamps becoming a sewing machine repairer ten years later. This made me wonder if they were the same couple. However, on reflection, I shouldn't think there were many Robert R Wilsons with a wife called Ellen/Nellie of the same age in Bradford. I shouldn't think there were many Robert R Wilsons full stop. It is an unusual combination of initials. Let's hope you are never able to find records showing Nellie and JWW going to America to join Tiras, that would rather mess up this great progress! I have just been on familysearch.org and had a look for Tiras Wilson entries. Baby Tiras junior was baptised in July 1891 in Manningham, Bradford, the son of Tiras and Cora, so they did not emigrate until after the census, so we ought to be able to find them really, perhaps Cora would be easier to find than her mistranscribable husband - unless they just came back to England for the christening, or would that be too far to come? Fred Rawnsley Wilson was baptised in Manningham on 28th April 1889 according to the same source What I really need, and am still hoping for, is an address in Bradford, or Scarborough, from where John Wilson enlisted/attested. I will ask for the printing of the records I found by the staff at Kew later and then comb through those. You might be interested to learn that John Wilson/Benn had a glowing report on all the paperwork I saw and in case it matters later, he gave his trade as "turner". I also noticed on Google this week that he is now showing up in a list of Singapore Jurors from 1916 where he was smelter. This was during the period when he was in the Singapore Engineers Volunteer Regiment and when my Great Uncle Jim (whose name was actually Frederick James was born.)
Regards and best wishes
Louise
22 September 05
An extremely helpful woman in the Register Office in Bradford has just confirmed, unequivocally, that John W Benn's middle name, as registered, was William. John William Benn, definitely. So it looks as though one of the family myths - that Wilson was not his actual name but an adopted one - is true Other information that might prove important - Lotts Yard was off St Thomas Street, Scarborough, near the Theatre Royal. Lotts Yard is not there now, I have seen old maps and been to the place where it was, it is now a carpark round the back of a supermarket. It would have been very tiny, probably not more than two rooms, maybe only one, in a very narrow and dark passage is my guess. I have tried to find it using the free 1901 census offer from "ancestors" but that only lets me search by individuals. I then had a look for the property on the pay to view search on the official national archives website (the search before you pay) but it kept saying my search was taking too long. I searched for Lotts Yard, St Thomas Street, Scarborough and various versions thereof to no avail.
Louise
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22 September 05
Ah Louise, The story gets more and more convoluted ) And why, I ask myself, didn't Eliza name her baby Samuel BENN (or similar) to give a clearer pointer to us as to who was the father!!I did look earlier today on FreeBMD for possible entries for the younger children of 'Benjamin'/Samuel BENN (the possible 'deserter'). There were some possible entries around the right time in Bradford including a Joshua of the right date - but who knows given that BENN is not an uncommon name and that they went for the same forenames ...Nellie WILSON of Manningham really does appeal to me - but (to mix metaphors) perhaps she's just some sort of red herring out there in the ether trying to latch on to any possible descendants and thus spooking anybody who is looking for someone of her name oDAll
The best,
JAP
22 September 05
I'd already looked for Cora on the 1891 census. When you see someone marrying either a Cora or a Maud on FreeBMD you obviously have your fingers crossed for Cora. There are only 4 Cora Wilsons in the whole of the country on the 1891 census, so as a name not quite as rare as Tiras but getting on for it. There is a Nellie Wilson in Scarborough on the 1901 census in some sort of home - not quite sure what it actually is, at 38 Ramshill RoadRG13 4532 folio 78Nellie Wilson 56 Manchester, Higher Broughton Visitor Scarborough Yorkshire She is the only Nellie Wilson of about the right age in Yorkshire. I can't find another Nellie born Higher Broughton on the 1891 census. It could be an error on the 1901 census but it is rather a distinct error and her age is off by a couple of years, but she probably wasn't giving the information. Still Manchester in Lancashire is getting even further away. Now I know I ought to remember which regiment John Wilson attested for but I can't - was it the 11th Hussars? - because there is a John Wilson on the 1901 census RG13 794 folio 121 at The Barracks Canterbury Kent John Wilson 21 St Johns Scarboro, Yorkshire Single Private He looks the best bet from potential candidates born circa 1881 Yorkshire. The 1891 census says there are a few John Wilsons born circa 1881 (but all a couple of years either side - however the army was always a bit vague when it came to getting men's ages right and their places of birth and someone attesting in Scarborough is probably near enough for them). On the 1901 census there is also a John Benn born Bradford of the right age, a boarder in Wray (actually 'Wray with Bottom' - great name) a quarryman. I suspect that is as good as it gets from the 1901 census.
Regards
Valda
23 September 05
Good morning Thanks very much for the latest lookups, much appreciated. John W Wilson/Benn joined up, so far as I can tell, with the Northumberland Fusiliers but transferred to the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. He was still in the Northumberland Fusiliers when he married though in 1903 so the transfer must have come after that. He joined one of those two in Hull, I don't know which until I see the papers, but the word Hull did jump out. I will know more when the papers have come from Kew - I wrote yesterday and asked them how they would handle the request for printing - he might have been on an overseas posting in 1901 of course, and then come back again. I am hoping that a scrutiny of that set of scruffy writings will shed some light. Perhaps the address where a Nellie Wilson was staying was a hotel? Scarborough is full of hotels. She could have been on a bus trip? Maybe our Nellie was dead by then if you cannot find her on the census, or gone to Connecticut with Tiras as you suggested, or married to someone else? One sorts out one avenue of research only to find another half a dozen springing up!
Best wishes
Louise
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23 September 05
The Northumberland Fusiliers definitely fought in the Boer War. However if he had enlisted he could equally be in Ireland or India or any 'far flung' part of the British Empire. There are around 122 Nellie Wilsons in Yorkshire in 1901 but Nellie in Scarborough is the only one born in the first half of the C19th. Probably the usual interesting coincidence. The other Nellies all have birth dates from the 1870s onwards. Working class widow and hotel don't really go together until the second half of the C20th and probably the Nellie you are interested doesn't go with the Scarborough 'home'. I'm not quite sure what sort of a place it was but these are all the people who were there census night. All single unless specified (including Nellie)Julia S Mackarness 64 Clapham, Middlesex, Head Hon. Lady Supt of Home Katherine E Haverfield 38 Shipton on Stour, Worcestershire, Niece Deputy Lady Supt of Home Caroline L C B Molineux 32 Kennington, London, Visitor Lady Nurse Henrietta Croghan 71 Maynoots, Ireland Visitor Widow Arabella G Berry 61 Market Bosworth, Leicestershire, Visitor Eleanor Beddows 45 Macclesfield, Cheshire, Visitor District nurse Annie V Turner 69 Brampton, Huntingdonshire, Visitor Nellie Wilson 56 Manchester, Higher Broughton Visitor Clara Hinton 45 Brighton, Sussex, Visitor Teaching Sarah Duncombe 68 Marston, Bedfordshire, Visitor Matron at Girls Home Annie Aubin 40 Jersey, Channel Islands Visitor Teaching Louisa Retallaile 44 Manchester, Lancashire, Visitor Companion with lady Hannah Walker 58 Tynemouth, Northumberland, Visitor Bessie M Aldersay 28 Paddington, London, Visitor School mistress Amy Batt 60 Shrewsbury, Shropshire, Servant Housekeeper Annie Moore 26 Manchester Rushbline Servant Parlour maid Emily Markham 26 Moulton, Lincolnshire, Servant Housemaid Rachel Bedale 21 Robin Hoods Bay, Yorkshire, Servant Kitchen maid Mary Forman 17 Hatton Holegate, Lincolnshire, Servant Nurse housemaid If Nellie emigrated with Tiras in 1891 you would expect her to take 10 year John Wilson with her.
Regards
Valda
30 September 05
Hello all, I have been away for a week, did you miss me? Or did you use the opportunity to get some work done on your own families rather than mine! Great news, I have today received the wedding certificate of young Ellen Benn, who married Thomas Henry Wood in 1894.You might remember she was the youngest child of Samuel or maybe Benjamin Benn who was married to Elizabeth Quote from JAP as a reminder" Both being at Revy/Revey Hall - Samuel the head in 1861, Benjamin the head in 1871 - is very telling. I think that Revy Hall was mentioned in earlier postings for Benjamin in 1871 but not for Samuel in 1861. And Elizabeth still being married in 1891 but a widow in 1901 is helpful and her father is given as SAMUEL BENN, "overlooker of weavers", deceased. Hurrah and twice again hurrah. So Benjamin in 1871 was clearly an accident of enumeration. And furthermore, Ellen's dad's occupation is exactly the same as that of Samuel Benn, the only one we actually know is MY ancestor, on the 1881 census in Bradford. Granted he was "weaving overlooker, out of employ" back in 1881 but I think the sense of the words are clear. Dare I say "By george, I think we've got him" (to paraphrase Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady)So, we have moved on a step to my satisfaction, my GGGrandfather was the father of nine children ex of Revy Hall, North Bierley. Furthermore this brings me to the belief that he is also the man in 1891 who was a lodger in Windhill, born North Bierley rather than Shelf (but a good guess if you were filling the papers in for someone else) and the man who died in 1891 of something horrible and pernicious. The next step is to decide who his parents were, and as I said earlier, I don’t fancy Benjamin and Mary, their Samuel having died years before. We didn't find him in Bradford in 1851 in my view, so perhaps he was still in Shelf, Halifax back then. I must go back and look at the entries the helpful rootschatter found for me in Halifax on another thread Very exciting stuff
Louise
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01 October 05
Part 1 Using the limitations of only the IGI index, if you are not keen on the 1836 baptism in Bradford for Samuel - parents Benjamin and Mary Then in 1835 there is SAMUEL BENN Christening 20 APR 1835 Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH and of course the more complex 1834 non-conformist baptism, still awaits in the wings (However the parents are Isaac Sharp and Martha Benn or Firth - the other Samuel Benn born Shelf circa 1830 on the 1861 census is the one with the son called Sharp - my interest in the name at last coming in useful perhaps) and other baptisms submitted by LDS members. 'Your' Samuel was in North Bierley in 1861 as was
RG9 3310 folio 54 HarbourAbraham Benn 54? Horton, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal Miner
Ruth Benn 52 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Martha Benn 21 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Steam weaver
Joshua Benn 20 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Coal Miner
Sarah Benn 18 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Cotton Weaver
George Benn 14 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Coal Miner
Ellen Benn 9 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter
Next door are a family called Lister (all born North Bierley) Also in North Bierley are
RG9 3310 folio 5 Buttershaw Road
Benjamin Benn 64 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal Miner
Mary Benn 58 Shelf, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Thomas Benn 20 Shelf, Yorkshire, Son Coal Miner
Esther Benn 23 Shelf, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver
Harriet Benn 20 Shelf, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver
Samuel Benn is at folio 15 Actually North Bierley in 1861 even has a Lister Benn at folio 48 aged 4 months. So the place has Benns and Listers coming out of its ears - ignoring the red herring Listers, there are 71 Benns in North Bierley and back in Shelf only 15 - 27 Benns in all born Shelf scattered about West Yorkshire. 'Your' Samuel has a wife born Horton, Elizabeth circa 1832 and three children Ruth born North Bierley circa 1855Margaret born Horton circa 1857Ann born Horton circa 1859 The only marriage on the incomplete FreeBMD I can see that might fit but is a risk with other Samuel Benn's around (though their children are slightly younger on the 1861 census) is Marriages Mar 1854 Benn Samuel Bradford Yorks 9b 91 Kellett Maria Bradford 9b 91 Rushworth Michael Bradford 9b 91 with the missing second woman's name. Following just Abraham's family and not Benjamin's onto the 1871 census. On the 1871 census naturally Abraham has changed his mind about being born in Horton but he does have a granddaughter Ruth living with him as well as the conveniently named son Joshua who may have had Samuel's son named after him.RG10 4440 folio 51 Not sure of address looks like Hemming something houses North Bierley Yorkshire Abram Benn 63 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal Miner Ruth Benn 62 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Joshua Benn 29 North Bielrey, Yorkshire, Son Dyer Wool Ellen Benn 19 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Weaver Worsted Ruth Benn 16 North Bieley, Yorkshire, Granddaughter Spinner Worsted1881 census RG11 4433 folio 61Truncliffe, North Bierley, Yorkshire Ruth Benn 72 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Widow Joshua Benn 39 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Stuff finisher Ellen Benn 21 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver On the 1891 census there is a Joshua Benn of about the right age in Bowling a stuff finisher, but naturally born Wibsey so I rather lost patience at this point, especially since he could be the retired stuff finisher in Shelf in 1901 born Bradford!!! From FreeBMD Benn, Abraham Record Type Deaths Age at death 73 Quarter September Year 1880 District Bradford County West Riding of Yorkshire Volume 9b Page 24
Regards
Valda
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01 October 05
Part 2 So if you are going with Abraham Benn and Ruth as Samuel's possible parents I would search the 1851 census in North Bierley for them and Samuel and not Shelf and probably the same place again in 1841 (as much as one can take the word of anyone on these censuses as to where they are born - this is where Samuel's potential younger siblings claim they were born in 1861, 71 and 81 - admittedly as soon as Joshua moves from the place he changes his mind.......)The IGI gives a potential marriage for Abraham and Ruth ABRAHAM BENN RUTH BASTOW Marriage 14 AUG 1826 Bradford, Yorkshire though Ruth would only be about 17 (which would be great because of consent of parents) and Abraham 19 (which should also require consent of parents if he admitted to his age and this actually was the right marriage and not an older couple - if it was by banns it might also be worth checking there for any parents' mentioned not just in the marriage register).The children on the IGI in the same batch number as Samuel are HANNAH BENN Christening 07 OCT 1833 Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH and then two baptised on the same day as Samuel so likely to be late baptisms in the unlikely event triplets run in the family - hoping Samuel isn't a late baptism as well. BENJAMIN BENN Christening 20 APR 1835 Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH JOHN BENN Christening 20 APR 1835 Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH No potential Benjamin Benns but there is a John Benn born circa 1829 in Shelf and a John born circa 1832 in North Bierley on the 1861 census, but then there are a lot of Benns all in a 'confined' space so you would expect to find several named John.
Regards
Valda
02 October 05
What would really be useful would be to be able to look at the 1841 census for the whole of the Halifax and Bradford areas (I think that all the places in which we are interested should be included in those two larger areas?). The problem is that "our" Samuel's parents may very well not be in the IGI but would, we hope, be in the 1841 census...BENN seems to have been a fairly common name so there may well be more than one couple comprising an Abraham BENN with wife Ruth, and more than one couple comprising a Benjamin BENN with wife Mary (there are two Benjamin and Mary marriages in IGI though it could be the same man Benjamin BENN to Mary HARRISON, Halifax 1820 and Benjamin BENN to Mary WHITE Bradford 1834). I wonder whether any RootsChatter has access to indexes (if such exist) for 1841 for Bradford and for Halifax? Abraham BENN and Ruth- I thought we had pretty much settled on an Abraham and a Ruth being the parents of Samuel the miner who married Ruth of Northowram (daughter of John GREEN) and had a son Sharp. The family of an Abraham BENN and a Ruth from the IGI (all Bradford - LDS signifies a patron submission, IGI an extracted entry) are Father Abraham Mother Ruth Samuel b 1831 (LDS), Samuel bap 1835 (IGI)Hannah b 1833 (LDS), bap 1833 (IGI)Benjamin b 1835 (LDS), bap 1835 (IGI)John b 1836(sic) (LDS), bap 1835 (IGI)Mary b 1837 (LDS)The following family in North Bierley in 1851 (see page 3) may or may not be the same Abraham and Ruth. Benn Abraham Head Mar M 43 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey Benn Ruth Wife Mar F 42 - Yorks., Wibsey Benn Samuel Son Unm M 20 Labourer Yorks., Wibsey - born circa 1831Benn Martha Dau - F 11 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Wibsey Benn Joshua Son - M 9 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey Benn Sarah Dau - F 8 - Yorks., Wibsey Benn George Son - M 4 - Yorks., Wibsey The age of this Samuel (20 in 1851) would be too old for "our" Samuel. If we accept that "our" Samuel is the one who married Elizabeth, then he was listed as 25 in 1861, 34 in 1871, 41 in 1881, possibly the one listed as 50 in the 1891 census, and possibly the one listed as 53 at death in 1891, etc. However, an age of 20 in 1851 fits with the age of Samuel, b Shelf (and we don't seem to be able to place any reliance on birthplaces!) who is in the 1861 census in Northowram aged 31 with wife Ruth, and children Sharp, William and Grace. Unfortunately this Samuel BENN, the miner in Northowram, aged only 4 years between 1861 and 1871 while his wife aged 13 years (31 and 22 in 1861 both 35 in 1871). If the age of Samuel the miner in 1861 is correct (31) then the death of Samuel BENN, age 51, Mar qtr 1880, in Halifax (Northowram was in Halifax) seems likely especially noting that wife Ruth is recorded as a widow in 1881 (age now 43).If Abraham and Ruth in North Bierley aren't the parents of Samuel the miner of Northowram, then that Samuel is left without any parents ...FreeBMD not providing enough information for marriages of Samuel BENN and Ruth GREEN, or of Samuel BENN and Elizabeth, I guess it would need a search on 1837online, and ordering of the marriage certificate of the Samuel who married Elizabeth to find out the name of his father ...
JAP
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02 October 05
Thank you for reminding me of the 1851 census for North Bierley (who said I lost patience with Joshua Benn in 1891 when he gave a birthplace of Wibsey)! You have a perfect match of names to the 1861 census except for Samuel who by then was I hope the Samuel with Elizabeth in the same village. To prove it is the same man on the 1861 and 1871 censuses and the 'older' man of the earlier and later censuses you are right a marriage is needed (and we have to hope there was one). The 1854 marriage is a risky bet but I don't see how you can cross check it on 1837online, without knowing Elizabeth's maiden name. As I said the other Samuels have children who are younger than Samuel and Elizabeth who have daughter Ruth born circa 1855.At this point we now know Abraham and Ruth were in the same village with Samuel who married Elizabeth (potentially 1851) through to 1871 and not with Samuel of Northowram, and that Ruth, the grandchild and daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth, was with her grandparents on the 1871 census - if not her then who, and where was she? That all makes them the more likely family unit, despite Samuel of North Bierley's age shifts. As there would seem to be plenty of Benns around and not all are on the IGI I'm not too unhappy about never knowing who Samuel Benn of Northowram's parents are, if it can be proved definitely who Samuel's of North Bierley's are. If not then we are back to the drawing board of elimination with both these men. BVRI for instance has this baptism BENN, David Birth Date 3 May 1832 Christening Date 23 Jun 1838 Shelf Primitive Methodist Father Abram BENN Mother Grace No sign of them by 1861. I haven't a clue who they are, so obviously there are Benns in Shelf we don't really know much or anything about.
Regards
Valda
02 October 05
Well ladies, despite your best endeavours, I feel it is still as clear as mud! I think my next course of action is to find the birth certificate of Ellen Benn who my gut tells me is John William/Wilson Benn's sister and find out her mother's maiden name. Or I could look for Margaret, Ruth or Ann's birth certificate - I seem to remember, without checking, that they were the older children of Samuel and Elizabeth. Then we have a maiden name and the chance to find a wedding - and then the name of Samuel's father! I should just throw in for total confusion that the birth certificate I got for a Samuel born in I think 1837ish, some 20 years ago, born in Holywell Green (south of Brighouse) was the son, from memory, of William Benn. I don’t know if I still have the certificate but do know that we have not had a single William Benn mentioned anywhere before, which means there are lots of Benns - including him - that we are not even aware of. So our man could be the child of someone we have not even seen yet - perish the thought.
Please advise
Louise
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03 October 05
I wish I had entered these people as a data set in my genealogical program D I would have, had I realized how confusing it was going to get! At this stage it does seem that some more information is needed.1. Marriage certificate for Samuel BENN and Elizabeth</strong> (a) Even if this is obtained and the name and occupation of Samuel's father is revealed, it won't necessarily prove which family he belongs to (as there could be more than one person of the father's name and occupation). But it would be a good step forward! And names of witnesses might help. (b) Re1837online - I should have spelled out more clearly the way I was thinking. I've never used that site (my searches were back in the days of trawling through endless quarterly rolls of film) but presumably it would have all marriage entries for people called Samuel BENN in the right area around the right time? I'm not really experienced in purchase of certificates in recent times but my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that one could then order all such certificates BUT with the proviso that one only wants the certificate if the bride's forename is Elizabeth? (c) Alternatively one could purchase the birth certificate of one of the children of Samuel and Elizabeth in order to find out Elizabeth's maiden name - and then, knowing her maiden name, search on 1837online for a marriage of a Samuel BENN and a marriage of an Elizabeth X in the same place and quarter, and only then order the marriage certificate. A possible birth certificate seems to be on FreeBMD - for Joshua (7 months old in 1871) BENN Joshua, Dec qtr 1870, Bradford, Yk, Vol 9b, page 23.2. Some other suggestions?</strong>(a) Louise, you have the complete 1851 Bradford census CD so places included in Bradford have been covered. According to lists of Civil Registration districts on Genuki Bradford Created 1st July 1837.Sub-districts Bowling Bradford Central Bradford East End Bradford West End Calverley Cleckheaton Drighlington Horton Idle Manningham North Bierley Pudsey Shipley Thornton Wilsden GRO volumes XXIII (1837-51) 9b (1852-1930). Allerton (except 1892-98), Bolton, Bowling, Bradford, Calverley (except 1892-98), Clayton (1837-91), Cleckheaton (1837-91), Drighlington (1837-91), Eccleshill (1837-91), Farsley (except 1892-98), Heaton (except 1892-98), Hunsworth (1837-91), Idle (1837-91), Manningham, North Bierley (1837-91), Pudsey (except 1892-98), Shipley (1837-91), Thornton (1837-91), Tong (1837-91), Wilsden (1837-91), Wyke (1837-91) But do we have allthe Halifax1851 entries for an appropriate Samuel BENN?According to GenukiHalifaxCreated 1st July 1837.Sub-districts Brighouse Elland Halifax Halifax North Halifax South Luddenden Northowram Ovenden Rastrick Ripponden Southowram Sowerby GRO volumes XXII (1837-51) 9a (1852-1930). Barkisland, Brighouse, Clifton, Elland, Fixny, Greetland, Halifax, Hartshead, Hipperholme, Luddenden Foot, Midgley, Norland, Northowram, Norwood Green and Coley, Ovenden, Queensbury, Rastrick, Rishworth, Shelf, Skircoat, Southowram, Sowerby, Sowerby Bridge, Soyland, Stainland with Old Lindley, Upper Greetland, Warley. You did post a lookup request and received information re a couple of Samuel BENNs but the answer said that the information was not complete. I wonder if any RootsChatter has access to a complete1851 Halifax index (if such exists)?(b) I wonder whether any RootsChatter has access to 1841 Bradford and Halifax indexes (if such exist)? Would a lookup request be worthwhile?3. Re Ruth the 16yo granddaughter of Abraham and Ruth in the 1871.</strong>I suggested (page 1) that she was Ruth (6 in 1861), daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth. However, Valda, I think that (page 3) you suggested that she could be Ruth, daughter of Samuel #6/#8 who was with her parents Samuel and Mary in Farnley in 1861 i.e. that the Farnley Samuel was actually Samuel, son of Abraham and Ruth ... And you suggested some other possibilities for Ruth, daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth (including, of course, that she might have died between 1861 and 1871).
JAP
03 October 05
Hi, Just back from a short break and catching up on the Benns. Abraham and Grace Holmes are my lot I think. Married Bradford 1st Oct 1786 children all christened South Parade Wesleyan Halifax - (if you can find its location let me know) -Isaac 1789 - my line David 1791 m Hannah Ashworth 1811Betty 1794Hannah 1809Isaac m Grace Sharpe, their children all christened Whitchfield Wesleyan Methodist, Shelf, were -William 1817Hannah 1819Marke 1822 - my line Hariot 1823The above William would by age, be a contender for the cert. Louise bought for the Samuel b. 1837 ish. Unfortunately I only have the IGI details and didn't pursue him further. Queensbury (Qeenshead) is also in the equation because of its proximity and I think that some of the census details are missing from that area. (can't remember which ones) also I read that some of the other Bradford census details are incomplete (lost?). The transcribers used by IGI (Mormons) are as fallible as any other transcribers and although I have the greatest respect for the work that they have done I always bear this in mind.
Dave
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03 October 05
Part 1 Purchasing a birth certificate to get Elizabeth's maiden name to cross check against the marriage index in 1837online I don't think is ultimately going to help for the March quarter 1854 marriage (which though risky I still consider a strong possibility).If you look at FreeBMD statistical information for marriages
http//freebmd.rootsweb.com/progressM.shtml
you will see the graph for the March quarter of 1854 is indicating 100% coverage and yet obviously the second woman's name is missing from the index. This is my summary of the research of Michael Whitfield Foster who published his research in a book entitled ‘A Comedy of Errors or The Marriage Records of England and Wales 1837-1899’ pub 1998. He was given access to the General Register Office collection of certificates and the civil registration index at Southport He concludes that the whole system as it was designed did not allow for the checking of accuracy and that there are many errors such as fathers indexed instead of sons, brides indexed with new names etc. Many of the quarterly returns from local registrars were of poor quality or never arrived and when original handwritten index books were replaced, the typing done by the temps involved was not checked exacerbating further a growing catalogue of potential errors and omissions. He estimates that a million errors in the marriage indexes 1837-1899 are very probable. The conclusion is that the only records that come anywhere near to 100% in their accuracy are those held by local registrars. Which means that the 2nd woman's name on the index for the 1854 marriage may just not be in the civil registration index (which is what 1837online has got) - unless of course FreeBMD itself has made an omission error in the transcription of the civil registration index. The argument also follows that 1837online might not necessarily have all the marriages of Samuel Benns if Michael Whitfield Foster is correct since someone has got to be amongst the proposed million missing names. However as the civil registration index is our only source for the time being, I think we need to bury that thought when considering how to obtain the correct Samuel marriage. Which leaves the checking facility for ordering certificates - and a need for a Samuel Benn marriage with a wife named Elizabeth (in either the first or second name??? - just in case, and hope none of the other wives had Elizabeth as their second name? - two Mary Elizabeths/Elizabeth Marys and you're scuppered) - still seems a good suggestion to me to go with. On FreeBMD in the decade 1850-1860 there are only two Samuel Benn marriages in the West Riding of Yorkshire, the other being Samuel Joseph Noble in 1854 in Hunslet. Ruth, Samuel and Elizabeth's eldest child, was born circa 1855. The marriage graph for FreeBMD does show some weak coverage pre this date in 1851 and 1853 in particular.
The 1861 census has 11 Samuel Benns in Yorkshire as possible candidates for the 1854 or yet undiscovered early 1850s marriage Saml Josh Noble Benn abt 1825 Hunslet, Yorkshire, Head Leeds - wife Susannah born circa 1825, distinctive name of Samuel, children born circa 1851 and 1853 so second marriage ignore Samuel Benn abt 1840 Bradford, Yorkshire, Head Bradford wife Maria born circa 1840, only child born aged 1 month therefore likely to be later marriage as his wife is to young, so my feeling is to ignore Samuel Benn abt 1794 Northowram, Yorkshire, Lodger unmarried elderly lodger - ignore Samuel Benn abt 1811 Clayton, Yorkshire, Head Clayton wife Grace born circa 1812, five children with the couple born between 1843 and 1857, there is a gap between 1848 and 1855 births, so a possibility of a second marriage, but I don't think it is likely - ignore? Samuel Benn abt 1837 Morley, Yorkshire, Head Holbeck wife Hagar born circa 1840 so too young and born in Holbeck, only child born circa 1860 and wrong registration district so ignore Samuel Benn abt 1843 Halifax, Yorkshire, Lodger Huddersfield to young and unmarried ignore Samuel Benn abt 1843 Hunslet, Yorkshire, Son Leeds to young unmarried ignore Samuel Benn abt 1857 Shipbury Moor, Yorkshire, Son Northowram to young ignore Samuel Benn abt 1831 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Farnley wife Mary Benn born circa 1833 Wibsey with two children born circa 1855 (daughter Ruth) and 1859, first child born Wibsey, second Farnley so good candidate Samuel Benn abt 1836 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head North Bierley wife Elizabeth born circa 1832 Horton, three children born 1855 (daughter Ruth) to 1859 North Bierley and two in Horton Samuel Benn abt 1830 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Northowram wife Ruth born circa 1839 Clayton, one child born circa 1859 Northowran - possibility but not perhaps as strong as the previous two as wife is probably to young, so can we ignore this one as well. Of course there is also a possibility of a Samuel marrying and emigrating/dying before the 1861 census, or not being found on the 1861 census. However with what we know the 1854 marriage might be close to a 50/50 chance with no loss if the request is for a marriage with a bride called Elizabeth. If it proves to be the'right' marriage you also save on the look up money for 1837online and save on the purchase of another birth certificate.
Regards
Valda
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03 October 05
Part 2 My present view re the grandchild Ruth and her whereabouts on the 1871 census is now based on the fact that Benjamin in the same village as Abraham and Ruth is now known to be Samuel (I'm also slightly better on West Yorkshire village geography) so my present hypothesis, waiting to be shot down, is the most likely interpretation is this is the same Ruth staying with her grandparents in the same village as her parents (I also didn't have access to the 1851 census for Samuel in the same village with Abraham and Ruth in 1851, if it is the same man as 1861 and 1871 - we still have the age issue, whereas the Wibsey born Samuel in 1861 gives a birth year of circa 1831 consistently). I think I also at least initially I couldn't find Samuel born Wibsey on the 1871 and 1881 censuses, but I have tracked him back since from the 1891 census, once I worked out he remarried1891 in Bowling born circa 1831 Wibsey with second wife Susannah born circa 1836 Wibsey and daughter Harriet born circa 1872 Wibsey 1881 in Bowling born circa 1831 North Bierley with second wife Susannah born circa 1836 North Bierley and daughter Harriet born circa 1871 North Bierley1871 in North Bierley Samuel born circa 1831 North Bierley, second wife Susannah born 1836 North Bierley, children John and Leah born circa 1859 and 1861 North Bierley. Boarder Joshua Benn born North Bierley circa 1852 (no Ruth daughter from 1861)1861 in Farnley Samuel born circa 1831 Wibsey, wife Mary born circa 1833 Wibsey and children Ruth born circa 1855 Wibsey, John born circa 1859 Farnley and Leah born circa 1861 Farnley. Which makes him a strong candidate particularly because of his age, which is why I suggested the grandchild Ruth might be his. However if we take Joshua Benn who was boarding with the family in 1871 and look for him in 1861 there is only one candidate who is in Farnley with this family (wherever Farnley is - my geography doesn't stretch that far as I don't think we've really had Farnley before) Henry Benn abt 1828 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Mary Benn abt 1828 Pudsey, Yorkshire, Wife Joshua Benn abt 1851 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Son Martha E Benn abt 1854 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Daughter Miranda Benn abt 1858 Pudsey, Yorkshire, Daughter Adelaide Benn abt 1860 Farnley, Yorkshire, Daughter There are 4 Ruth Benns all born within 5 years of a birth year circa 1855 on the 1871 census. Three incredibly irritatingly are with their grandparents, while the other to really get me fed up is a niece!!One is born circa 1858 and called Ruth Ann (in 1861 she is born circa 1860 and is with her parents so we can ignore her)One born Wibsey circa 1855 is in Horton and is still with her maternal grandparents in North Bierley in 1861, now born Horton, so she can also be ignored. One born Wibsey circa 1853, a niece with the Hilletts (who were born in Wibsey and Horton) in Horton (if she is the daughter of the other Samuel and his wife Mary then the marriage may be earlier than 1854)and the Ruth born circa 1855 in North Bierley with Abraham and Ruth in North Bierley, who at this point I still think is more likely to be the daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth rather than the doppleganger couple of Samuel and Mary, who though they put in a scarily strong challenge, with more information seem just a little less likely - even though they do hang around North Bierley, but doesn't everyone or at least everyone with the surname Benn. OK what does everyone think? How does it stand up?
Regards
Valda
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04 October 05
Hi This excellent Webb site gives tons of info on Calverley, Farnley, Pudsey areas. Just type Benn in the search, click, then choose one of the census returns, news items or wills or whatever the returns are. It is usually easier to then search the census returns using Ctrl F.(http//www.calverley.info/calverley.htm)Have a look at the enumeration district information. It gives an insight into the type of industry in the area. Going by the street names the area where Samuel is in 1861 looks like it is next to Low Moor. Farnley however, is in Leeds, North of Bradford 12 o clock and almost at the opposite side of Bradford to Shelf. We also have a Farsley so I will have to go back and have another look at that census. Had a look at my A to Z Farnley is now known as New Farnley and is near Pudsey. Some distance from Shelf but still less than half a day’s walk and if you were chasing work (or trying to confuse your descendents) it would be a worthwhile move.Pudsey is further round and is on the border between Bradford and Leeds. At about 3 o clock on the view we used earlier. Perhaps I did not make it clear enough earlier but Wibsey and North Bierley are one and the same or rather Wibsey is a part of North Bierley. Horton is next to Wibsey but is a place on it's own. All of them can be termed Bradford for enumeration purposes and indeed were in the later censuses. This is particularly relevent when there are 'strays'. In a similar context 'born Halifax' can mean born Northowram or Shelf or Queensbury and also born Farnley or Pudsey can mean the same as born Leeds Without being patronizing, it might be easier if you are unfamiliar with the areas involved to just draw the clock and put in the place names.
Regards
Dave
04 October 05
The 1861 Farnley Samuel is in Hunslet registration district, Sub-registration district Wortley [Near Leeds] which didn't help me much as the only Farnley I could find was north of Otley (north of Bradford) - however Dave, from your information I now see New Farnley south of Pudsey between Leeds and Bradford, but closer to Leeds, so I'm presuming this is the place. I'll have to take you word for the half a day walk bit. On my map it looks further than that.
Regards
Valda
04 October 05
Hi Valda, Do a 'find in page' for Farnley on Genuki at
http//www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/wry.htm
It seems that Farnley was very much a moveable feast. But it was even worse than that - there seem to have been two places called Farnley and they don't distinguish between them on the Genuki page! One north of Otley, and one between Pudsey and Leeds near Wortley. And now there's also a New Farnley. If one squints at the small print, one can see all these places in the one view on Multimap atClick here for view including two places called Farnley and also a New Farnley also Hunslet appears immediately below and to the left of the word Leeds
(http//www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=430000.399874512&Y=440000.829243871&width=700&height=400&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=0&scale=100000&out.x=1&out.y=6)
As far as I can make out ...(a) The story for the Farnley which was initially in Hunslet seems to be1837-1862Farnley is listed as being in Hunslet (1837-1862) 1862-1869Farnley is listed as being in Kirkstall (Kirkstall had been created in 1862 out of Hunslet, and was abolished in 1869)1869-1925Farnley is listed as being in Bramley (Bramley had been created in 1863 out of Hunslet and Otley it was abolished and renamed Leeds North on 1 Jan 1925)1925-?Farnley is listed as being in Leeds North (Bramley having been renamed Leeds North)(b) The story for the Farnley which was initially in Otley seems to be1837-1861Farnley is listed as being in Otley.1861-?Farnley is listed as being in Wharfedale (Wharfedale was created out of Otley in 1861)Well, why should they make it easy for us!
JAPPS
And Wikipedia indicates that there's a Farnley Hall (a stately home) in each of these two places called Farnley ....
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04 October 05
I think the Farnley N. of Otley is out of the frame. It is a small village close to where I live (in Guiseley) and has a Leeds post code even though it is in Wharfedale (Valley of the river Wharfe) This is the one at 12 o clock on the Bradford map.Farnley near Wortley adjoins New Farnley - which still has some of the place names associated with the enumeration district of the Farnley where Samuel was living in 1861 eg. Low Moor Lane, Low Moor Side and Forge Lane. Names that initially I associated with Low Moor, Bradford.On a lighter note I think all this name changing is to confuse the Lancastrians if they ever try to invade. We have a Bolton Abbey in Wharfedale, that is nowhere near Bolton and is actually not an abbey but a priory, even though everyone calls it an abbey!!
Regards
Dave
October 05
OK, good to know we are making so much progress in the obviously easier section of the task - researching the line in the second half of the C19th!We don't really seem to be inching forward much. Do I sense a touch of hysteria seeping in? To reinterate we have a Samuel with Abraham and Ruth on the 1851 census who is either the Samuel or the doppleganger Samuel. The Samuel marries Elizabeth, the doppleganger marries Mary. The Samuel is born Shelf (and may move his birth year around) and place of birth. The other Samuel is born Wibsey/North Bierley and is consistent with the birth year 1831. Both rather conveniently have daughters called Ruth born circa 1855 (but one may be older) in the same place. The doppleganger Samuel possibly has a relative called Joshua Benn born circa 1851/2 the son of Henry Benn born circa 1828 Wibsey and his Pudsey born wife Mary born circa 1828 (some disaster having struck this family by 1871 as Miranda their daughter is adopted and living in West Ardsley) - may be Joshua was a nephew, staying with Samuel in 1871? One Ruth in 1871 born circa 1855 was with her grandparents Abraham and Ruth. The other born circa 1853 could possibly have been a niece with the Hilletts (not totally convinced this is their surname but entire family disappears anyway whatever their name is) - may not be the other Ruth who after all could just have died or been missed off the census. So if there is a Samuel with Abraham and Ruth on the Bradford 1851 census, is there another Samuel born circa 1831 Wibsey/North Bierley preferably with an older brother called Henry (or in reality is he an older child for Abraham and Ruth and the doppleganger is really their son despite wandering off to Farnley and no Henry on the IGI)?
I lost the plot on the 1851 Bradford census sometime ago and I agree a census lookup for the 1851 census for Halifax district and any Samuel's in Shelf in particular would be useful. And we're all agreed we need a marriage certificate for Samuel. Dave I don't think Yorkshire ever needed to worry about being attacked from Lancashire with the 'Bradford triangle' as the first line of defence (who ever thought it was the Pennines). The Lancasterians obviously could not have got ten miles without getting completely confused!!
Regards
Valda
05 October 05
Hi I have a Cold Harbour, Northowram as a birth place for some of my rellies, so today I thought that I would try Genuki. I didn't find what I wanted but I did find this site that explains the where-a-bouts of everything more yonderly than
http//www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Where/QuickGuide.html
Dave
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05 October 05
I am more than happy to put my hand up to hysteriaI am now officially hysterical- and you know there is another Farnley which I automatically thought you meant, not having heard of the other ones in Bradford. This is Farnley Tyas, in south Huddersfield - next to its big landmark, Castle Hill. But now I have learnt about the Bradford Farnley near Wortley that sounds so much better. Although I was confused for a bit with Wortley, thinking of the one north of Sheffield.....hence the hysteria. Right, I have ordered the marriage certificate for 1854 and specified that the bride has to have Elizabeth amongst her first names. I will now post some extra requests for help on this board - for lookups or help with finding lookups in Halifax in 1841 and 1851.I will also search all 13 parts of the 1851 census for Bradford - you have to do them one at a time as each is a separate PDF - for a Henry Benn If I have missed something, please can you let me know. And is it or is not worth my getting a birth certificate for young Joshua or young Ellen to find out their mother's maiden name? Or have I already done that? Confused? I thought Avica the mysterious lady was a tough nut but that was easy in comparison to this family. Thanks to the three of you for keeping on keeping on
Very best wishes
Louise
05 October 05
Louise,I think the Farnleys are Leeds not Bradford, Wortley definitely is.
Dave
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05 October 05
In fairness to all the census enumerators who enumerated all the Benns so far, they have given real places in Yorkshire correctly speltPlan a) was the 1854 marriage. Plan b) was to get one of the children's birth certificates and then try to trace Elizabeth's marriage on 1837online from the known maiden name if plan a) failedHowever according to this message on a Genealogy forum in 2002 - Louise you already know Elizabeth's maiden name
http//genforum.genealogy.com/benn/messages/298.html
Thanks for your message. I cannot see a connection with your Samuel to my Ellen at this stage, but I do have a Samuel Benn in another branch of my tree who was perhaps born around the time you are talking about. I'm afraid I don't know very much about him, but he was married to Elizabeth JOWETT and they had a daughter called Ann BENN, who was born about 1860 in North Bierley. Ann married Leonard Ormondroyd in 1876 and at that time she was from Wibsey and her father, Samuel, was a worsted weaver. Does this fit with anything? and another person on another forum who nobody responded to emailed this in 1999 About my BENN family (and if I've already sent this - sorry)The farthest that I've gone back is to William and Mary Benn (I don't have a maiden name for Mary or birthdates or anything). However, I'm guessing that William & Mary were born around the late 1700's - or very early 1800's,because of their children's birthdates Elizabeth Benn(b. 1818) married James Isherwood Zillah Benn(b. 1820) married Charles Worsnop Mary Benn (b. 1825) married John Hartley Margaret Benn(b. 1832)Samuel Benn(b. 1833) - my gg grandfather - married Elizabeth Jowett (b. 1832 - Horton). They were married in Bradford, England Joshua Benn(b. 1837) If any of you have a connection, I'd love to hear from you.
http//archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BENN/1999-03/0921551273
Whether she is right or not I'm just impressed she got back that far considering the heavy weather we are making of it! If she's correct this completely throws out Abraham and Ruth and puts them as the parents of the doppleganger I did once think one of the two Samuel's might be married to a Jowett because in the 1871 census one of the potential granddaughters Ruth was with her Jowett grandparents. However she was the granddaughter who was still with her Jowett grandparents in 1861, so unless she was enumerated twice in 1861 (which on reflection I wouldn't put passed the Benns - since they are using every other trick in the book to totally confuse) she was out of the frame, because both the two Ruths we were looking for were with their parents in 1861. This Ruth's Jowett grandparents were George and Ruth, just for information if George's name comes up on the marriage certificate. These are two of the marriage references that go with the Benn siblings mentioned in the second forum message Benn, Elizabeth 1851 March Marriages Bradford Isherwood, James 1851 March Marriages Bradford BENN, Zilla 1841 September Marriages Bradford WORSNOP, Charles 1841 September Marriages Bradford Nothing on the IGI for the children's baptisms except an LDS member's insertion. Zillah Worsnop on the 1861 census is I think in Manningham Bradford Charles Worsnop abt 1822 Horton, Yorkshire, Head Zillah Worsnop abt 1820 Chatt Hill, Yorkshire, Wife Charles has remarried by 1871.I cannot see Elizabeth Isherwood on the 1861 census and trying to find Mary Hartley's marriage and census is difficult with so many Hartleys. Where precisely is Chatt Hill? Putting in Chatt Hill in Google I discovered there is a Jowett one name study
http//www.jowitt1.org.uk/wry1830.htmandhttp//www.Blimey/cgibin/surname.cgi?find=jowett&Go=Search
but I didn't discover where Chatt Hill actually was. I also then checked Benn with the Guild of One Studies to rather belatedly discover it is registered
http//www.Blimey/cgibin/surname.cgi?find=benn&Go=Search
Now that's what I call real dedication! Louise you may want to email the 'one namer' this thread to see what he makes of it and try to contact the people on the other two old forums. Now we are probably also looking on the 1851 census for a William and Mary with a Samuel, if not on the 1851 census index for Bradford, then in the Halifax census index (fascinating as the detour to Farnleys of West Yorkshire has been for all of us).
Regards
Valda
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06 October 05
If you put Chat Hill Road, Bradford in Multimap (just one 't'), it brings up a Chat Hill Road near Thornton. And, changing the scale a couple of steps, shows a Chat Hill to the right of the road.
JAP
06 October 05
Chat Hill as JAP says is at the Bradford end of Thornton. 9 o’ clock on our map. It is short (400 yards)and has farmland either side and features on the Bronte trail. I don't remember any other industry except an old corn mill on Pinch Beck. Nearby Thornton had lots of Mining and Textiles. At the end of Chat Hill, in the valley, there is Low lane that goes up to Clayton and Cockin Lane (I'm not kidding) that goes up to Queensbury. Chat Hill is a rather pleasent area typical of unspoilt farmlands on the outskirts of East Bradford with a few scattered late 17C farmsteads.
Dave
06 October 05
Oh dear! It seems I have been a rather poor genealogist Valda. What you seem to have found in those two sets of messages from years gone by, is that my gggrandfather is possibly Samuel Benn, son of William Benn - which would mean perhaps that the birth certificate I bought twenty years ago and discounted, might in fact be the right one. So my first black mark. It would also mean that I potentially already knew all this I note my flippant remark in the post you show where I say "Your Samuel could be my Samuel if he was a wayward husband or a widow." That will come back to haunt me. Another black mark. I am now going to email the three people who seem to have some information, Bob Chapple, Martin Bentley and Val Kanch is and see if any of the email addresses are still in working order. I have been in touch with Bob Chapple a few times over the years I think, mostly helping him tie up my more recent Benn family members for his one name study. I am looking forward to seeing what the marriage certificate throws up now - and to finding some new family members! I will keep you posted
Best wishes
Louise
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06 October 05
Martin Bentley is no slouch, he has emailed me back already, hope you are ready for all this! (answer probably will have to come in parts)Hello Louise! Thank you for contacting me and pointing me in the direction of your "problem thread".I have had a very quick scan through and see you have all sorts of problems. I certainly aren't going to solve any of them, but I will forward you the following information I have on the few BENNS that appear in my tree. Please feel free to pass it on to your fellow researchers and I would be glad to hear from anyone with any firm links. I would also like to make contact with "Dave the Tyke" on your thread – He seems to have every surname that I am researching! If you could put me in touch, I would be grateful. I do not have a direct connection with the BENN family, just some distant links via marriages into my various Ormondroyd lines, so I have not done any serious research into the BENNS. Anyway, here is the info I have. Hope it helps!
St. Peter's, Bradford – Marriages Ref 40D90/1/3/42P224 No44828 Mar 1853 David ORMONDROYD, 21, Bach, Miner, Wibsey, Joseph Ormondroyd, Boiler?? Ellen BENN, 20, Spin, Weaver, Wibsey, David Benn, Miner Witnesses William Holmes & Ephraim Smith Believed Ellen BENN was illegitimate and made up the father's name when she married. In view of this there is an entry which may suit her baptism St. Peter's, Bradford – Baptisms Ref 40D90/1/2/9P196 No28820 Apr 1835Ellen BENN, daughter of Mary, Wibsey, Spinster (b. 8 Jan 1833)
Here are Ellen's Census entries through the years (Interestingly with a grandson called "Lister" Ormondroyd in the later years)1861 Census P3347 ED10 F5 SN22 Dwelling Littlemoor Lane, Pudsey David HORMANROYD Head M 29 Coal miner Wibsey Ellen HORMANROYD Wife M 28 Wibsey Sergeant HORMANROYD Son 4 Pudsey Melisa HORMANROYD Dau 2 Pudsey1871 CensusP4540 ED30 F32 SN94Dwelling 8 Play Ground, Farnley David ORMONDROYD Head M 39 Coal miner North Bierley Ellen ORMONDROYD Wife M 38 North Bierley Sargent ORMONDROYD Son 14 Stuff warehouse boy Pudsey Melissa ORMONDROYD Dau 12 Cotton factory hand Pudsey Ben ORMONDROYD Son 9 Scholar Pudsey Ann ORMONDROYD Dau 6 Scholar Pudsey1881 Census Dwelling Mill Field Census Place North Bierley, Yorkshire, York, England Source FHL Film 1342060 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 4435 Folio 50 Page1Marr Age Sex Birthplace David ORMONDROYD M 49 M North Bierley, Yorkshire, York, England Rel Head Occ Coal Miner Ellen ORMONDROYD M 48 F North Bierley, Yorkshire, York, England Rel Wife Sargent ORMONDROYD U 24 M Pudsey, York, England Rel Son Occ Stuff Maker Up Melissia ORMONDROYD U 22 F Pudsey, York, England Rel Daur Occ Cotton Winder Ben ORMONDROYD U 19 M Pudsey, York, England Rel Son Occ Woolsorter Ann ORMONDROYD U 16 F Pudsey, York, England Rel Daur Occ Cotton Winder Ruth ORMONDROYD 7 F Horton, York, England Rel Daur Occ Scholar1891 Census Dwelling Mill Field, North Bierley David ORMAND Head M 59 General Labourer North Bierley Ellen ORMAND Wife M 58 North Bierley Ben ORMANDROYD Son W 29 Woolsorter Pudsey Ruth ORMANDROYD Dau S 17 French drawer Horton Lister ORMANDROYD GrSon 6 Scholar North Bierley1901 CensusP4177 ED17 F5 SN1Dwelling 1 & 3 Windmill Hill, North Bierley David ORMONDROYD Head M 69 Retired coal miner Bradford Ellen ORMONDROYD Wife M 68 Bradford Sarjent ORMONDROYD Son S 44 (Paralysed 6 years) Pudsey Ruth ORMONDROYD Dau S 27 Worsted weaver Bradford Lister ORMONDROYD GrSon S 16 Worsted yarn washer Bradford Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Wibsey - Burials LDS film 165740229 May 1907Ellen ORMONDROYD, mother of Benjamin, 3 Windmill Hill, Wibsey, aged 74.Grave ref 14M?Going on from the Lister connection. David O and Ellen BENN did actually have their own child called Lister
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06 October 05
St. Peter's, Bradford – Baptisms Ref 40D90/1/2/13P602 No38630 Apr 1854Lister ORMONDROYD, son of David & Ellen, Wibsey, Miner (b. 29 Sep 1853)(Born only 6 months after their marriage - a good ole' shotgun wedding!) YorkshireBMD Yorkshire Death indexes for the years 1859 Surname Forename(s) Age District Region Reference ORMONDROYD Lister - Pudsey Leeds PUDSEY/12/427 Another Ormondroyd / BENN connection I have is St. Peter's, Bradford – Marriages Ref 40D90/1/3/42P26 No 5119 Dec 1852 William BENN, 22, Bach, Miner, Bowling, Benjamin Benn, Miner Matty ORMONDROYD, 19, Spin, Weaver, Bowling, James Ormondroyd, Labourer Witnesses William Holmes and Ephraim Smith
And the census entries for William St. Peter's, Bradford – Baptisms Ref 40D90/1/2/10P11 No861 Jun 1836 William BENN, son of Benjamin & Mary, Shelf, Miner (b. 25 Sep 1830)1851 CensusED1 F24 SN162Dwelling Buttershaw, North Bierley Benjamin BENN Head M 54 Coal miner Shelf Mary BENN Wife M 48 Coal miner's wife Shelf Samuel BENN Son U 26 Weaver Shelf Sarah BENN Dau U 22 Weaver Shelf William BENN Son U 20 Coal miner Shelf Thos. BENN Son U 16 Coal miner Shelf Easter BENN Dau 13 Weaver Shelf Harriet BENN Dau 10 Scholar North Bierley1861 CensusP3315 ED20 F87 SN130 Dwelling 522 Galloway Hill, Bowling William BENN Head M 30 Carter Bireley Martha BENN Wife M 27 Bireley Margret BENN Dau 2 Bireley Wibsey
Wesleyan Methodist Chapel - Burials No208 23 Mar 1868 William BENN, husband of Matty, Bowling, age 36. Grave ref 20 Blackburn Registers Wibsey Reform Chapel - MI's No. 60 In memory of William BENN of Bowling Lane Top, who died March 19th 1868 aged 37/9. Also Adam, son of the above, who died on 23rd January 1865, aged 2 years 9 months. Also of Matty Gardener, wife of the above, born September 14th 1831, died July 19th 1899.When William died, Matty remarried Thomas GARDENER St. Peter's, Bradford – Marriages Ref 40D90/1/3/81P236 No47113 Sep 1869Thomas GARDNER, 43, Bach, Draper, Bowling, John Gardner, Farmer Matty BENN, 36, Wid, Bowling, James Ormondroyd, Carter Witnesses William Holmes & Christopher Gibson
Yet another Ormondroyd / BENN connection is FreeBMD Marriages Jun 1872 BENN Ruth Bradford Y 9b 334 ORMONDROYD Charles Bradford, Y. 9b 334
1881 Census Dwelling Brown Royd Hill Census Place North Bierley, York, England Source FHL Film 1342060 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 4435 Folio 40 Page26Marr Age Sex Birthplace Ruth ORMONDROYD M 35 F North Bierley, York, England Rel Head Occ Formerly Worsted Weaver Eliz. ORMONDROYD 7 F North Bierley, York, England Rel Dau Occ Scholar Clara ORMONDROYD 5 F North Bierley, York, England Rel Dau Occ Scholar Emily ORMONDROYD 3 F North Bierley, York, England Rel Dau Ada THORTON W 38 F North Bierley, York, England Rel Visitor Occ Worsted Weaver
1891 Census P3618 ED24 F31 SN130 Dwelling 303 Bowling Old Lane, Bowling Charles ORMONDROYD Head M 41 Fruiterer Bradford Ruth ORMONDROYD Wife M 41 Bradford Elizabeth ORMONDROYD Dau U 17 Dress maker Bradford Clara ORMONDROYD Dau U 15 Fruiterer's assistant Bradford Emily ORMONDROYD Dau 13 Bradford Carrie ORMONDROYD Dau 2 Bradford Helena ORMONDROYD Dau 11m Bradford
1901 Census P4147 ED35 F13 SN111 Dwelling 17 Parsonage Road, West Bowling, Bradford Charles ORMONDROYD Head M 50 Greengrocer shopkeeper Bradford Ruth ORMONDROYD Wife M 53 Bradford Emily ORMONDRYD Dau S 23 Dressmaker Bradford Carrie ORMONDROYD Dau S 12 Bradford Helena ORMONDROYD Dau 10 Bradford Ada THORNTON Aunt W 56 Cotton weaver Bradford Percy MAYBURY Visitor S 25 Commercial traveller Barton, Lancs
Death Certificate Bradford, Bowling34614 Apr 191517 Parsonage Road, Ruth ORMONDROYD, aged 68, Wife of Charles, Drysalter's traveller, Cancer of liver Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Wibsey - Burials LDS film 165740216 Apr 1915Ruth ORMONDROYD, wife of Charles, 17 Parsonage Road, aged 68.
The Blackburn Registers Wibsey Wesleyan Reform Chapel - MI'sNo.87In memory of Ruth ORMONDROYD, the beloved wife of Charles Ormondroyd who died April 14 1915 in her 69th year. Also of the above named Charles Ormondroyd who died January 2? 1922 in his 72nd year. ENDS
I have not had time to read all this yet, but will save it all up for later, it looks very interesting stuff. Martin has now joined the site having seen how great it is while looking at this thread. Welcome!
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06 October 05
I have found a website where you can pay to search a whole heap of databases simultaneously, including Yorkshire burials, Kirklees census', all sorts, including the census for Halifax for 1851.www.familyhistoryonline.netWhat follows is all taken from their site - so respect for their copyright and all that! I have spent my full five pounds getting into all sorts of records, most of which I won’t put here just now because I don’t know what is relevant and what isn't it. But there are only two Samuel Benn's in Halifax in 1851 as Jap said.
They are, to remind you, 1851 census in Halifax. Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Charlotte Status M Rel Wife gender Female Age 63 Occupation – Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 3922. Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Samuel Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 60 Occupation Hand Loom weaver (Worsted) Place of Birth Northowram County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 3923. Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Job Status – Rel Gson gender Male Age 10 Occupation Spinner of Worsted (at Mill) Place of Birth Northowram County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 392 (poor kid having to work in the mill at aged 10). Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Margaret Status U Rel Dau gender Female Age 30 Occupation Worsted weaver (By power) Place of Birth Clayton County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 392 (I don’t think they are all deaf, I think that is a mistake)
And the second family. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Mark Status M Rel Son gender Male Age 28 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6382. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Mary Hannah Status – Rel (Dau) gender Female Age 2m Occupation – Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6383. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Roda Status U Rel Dau gender Female Age 19 Occupation Power Loom Weaver Worsted Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6384. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Samuel Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 21 Occupation Crabber Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6385. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Isaac Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 64 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6386. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Sarha Status M Rel Dau-in-L gender Female Age 22 Occupation Power Loom Weaver Worsted Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6387. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Grace Status M Rel Wife gender Female Age 59 Occupation – Place of Birth Shelf County Yks deaf
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6388. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Selena Status U Rel Dau gender Female Age 15 Occupation Worsted Spinner Place of Birth Shelf County Yks deaf
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 638 Then I looked at Kirklees in 1841 and found this family which I am sure is relevant, but cannot just work it all out at the moment. Kirklees is the borough for the area around Huddersfield which is no real distance away. Kirklees 1841 census Address Brick Bank Head - Name Mary Jane Sugden Age 4 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 482. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Elizabeth Sugden Age 43 Occupation
- Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 483. Address Brick Bank Head Name Edwin Sugden Age 25 Occupation Blacksmith Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 484. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Joshua Benn Age 22 Occupation Cropper Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 485. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Samuel Benn Age 7 Occupation
- Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 48I cannot stop just now to think what this all means as I am meant to be working.
Best wishes
Louise
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06 October 05
Louise, The second second family is mine. I only had them back to 1861 so had missed some of the earlier ones Isaac b. 1789 and his wife Grace Sharpe b. 1792 are my 3x ggrandparents, their son Mark is my gggrandfather. If the son Samuel is your elusive rellie then here is the long sought connection. Martin is now on my address list and I have sent an email to Robert Chappel so I too am now making some progress
Thanks
Dave
06 October 05
Hello folks, Have just joined this site after being contacted by Louise. I have sent her the information which she has posted to this thread, so thought I'd better "show my face", so to speak, and if anyone has any queries they can contact me direct. Good luck in solving your issues.
Regards
Martin
06 October 05
I'm not sure any of that took us any further forward on the direct line for Samuel, though I am beginning to suspect as yet more historical Benns pile in, that this may be the first Rootschat thread that has attempted a localised one name study. We need JAP's eyes to check the detail of all of that to see whether Samuel, possibly the son of William and Mary (still unproven) and/or siblings is anywhere amongst it all. If its any consolation Louise I didn't actually check until yesterday that anyone was doing a one name study of the surname Benn. I am actually a member of the Guild of One Name Study's myself!!!
Regards
Valda
06 October 05
Hi Louise, Received your email. Yes, I am sure we are related to the same Samuel Benn. I must apologize, I'm on my third computer and lost my computerized data base of the family tree. I do have a hard copy that I'll have to pull out. I originally received census data from Bob Chapple. Also, my cousin Lewis Benn is very involved in our family history. I've not done much with my research as of late. What can I do to help? Or what information can I provide you with?
Sincerely,
Valerie Konchis
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07 October 05
Welcome Valerie and also Martin. Valerie in your message of 1999 you stated these were the children of William and Mary Benn Elizabeth Benn(b. 1818) married James Isherwood(married 1851)Zillah Benn(b. 1820) married Charles Worsnop (married 1841) Mary Benn (b. 1825) married John Hartley Margaret Benn (b. 1832) Samuel Benn (b. 1833) - my gg grandfather - married Elizabeth Jowett (b. 1832 - Horton). They were married in Bradford, England Joshua Benn (b. 1837) I presume you have the baptisms of these children from somewhere and or a census entry for the family. We'd like to know the details (the census reference as well if you have it) You say this Samuel married Elizabeth Jowett - do you have their marriage details including the information on both their fathers? What details do you have of Samuel and Elizabeth's children? Which child of Samuel and Elizabeth do you descend from? Did your research show what eventually happened to Samuel and Elizabeth? We'd all like to know the details you hold on Samuel's early life to see if we can finally prove which Samuel Benn, Louise is probably descended from.
Regards
Valda
07 October 05
Hello everyone, welcome Valerie J and Martin Two new rootschatters, always good news Following Valda's tips yesterday about looking at those old and at the time seemingly unrelated posts on other sites, I contacted various people as you know. As well as Martin replying and Valerie posting in here, I have also heard today from Brenda whose husband is descended from another one of the 9 children - Ruth who married Adam Sugden (I knew that name was familiar somehow when I saw it on the Huddersfield census).She says I have a copy of the marriage certificate for Samuel BENN and Elizabeth JOWETT, which I assume is the one that you have sent for.23rd August 1853 at The Parish Church in the Parish of Bradford – I understand that this is St.Peter CE Church, Bradford, Yorks , and is now the Cathedral. Samuel BENN, 20, Bachelor, Mechanic, residence Horton, Father William BENN, a weaver Elizabeth JOWETT, 20, Spinster, Weaver, residence Horton, Father George JOWETT, a comber Married after Banns by W F Black curate .witnesses William Holmes and John Mitchell Their daughter Ruth was living with her grandparents in 1871. Bob Chapple originally had a bit of a mix up with the two Ruth BENNs born about the sametime. He had linked the wrong one to the above family. I had searched in the census and managed to sort it out. Samuel and Elizabeth BENN had a large family Ruth, Margaret, Ann, Zillah, William, Mary, Martha, Joshua and Ellen - I received the information from Bob Chapple about most of them. Ruth BENN was my husband's greatgrandmother. She was born Sep.1855 at North Bierley, married Adam SUGDEN in1873 and died 1880. She was the oldest of their many children, Ann one of her younger sisters married Leonard Ormondroyd. I think Val Konchis is descended from their son William who emigrated to America. Is this the same family that you are researching. If so, who are you descended from? I did some preliminary searching on the IGI on line and have a speculative family tree going back to 1764, but I have yet to search the parish registers to prove that they are the correct ones. The father of Samuel BENN was William BENN - according to his marriage certificate. From the IGI I have speculated that William BENN was married to Mary FOSTER in 1816William BENN was the son of Joshua BENN and Ann BLAMIERS who were married in1793Joshua BENN was the son of Joshua BENN and Mary Wilkinson who were married in 1764.I have said, this is information from the IGI and has not been checked out. Perhaps Valerie J can confirm those details? If we can prove to our mutual satisfactions that I am descended from Samuel Benn who married Elizabeth Jowett, and I am certainly moving that way, then I am related to Valerie J and to Brenda's husband as a third cousin but "on the wrong side of the blanket". I am interested to see which marriage certificate, if any, turns up as it won’t be the right date for the entry Brenda discussesB est wishes to all- I am feeling so very lucky to have so many people on my side on this one
Louise
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07 October 05
Also, my cousin Lewis Benn is very involved in our family history
Oh dear, my third black mark, I knew another one was on its way. I was in written correspondence with Lew Benn some years ago but we did not make the connection. All I can say in my defence is that the man I was looking for was meant to be born in Shelf in 1840 and was living, at least for a while, in a different family unit. Whereas the man I was being offered was a married man with 9 children born in around 1833 with no suggestion of him having absconded. So forgive me for not spotting the connection straight away. I am now in a fever of speculation about where to go next and what to do next. I feel fairly confident that my Samuel is the man that married Elizabeth and then presumably left his family, but need your advice on what to try next. Perhaps Bob the one-name study man might be able to help. He could perhaps tell us for sure which of the other Samuels are which? I have been trying to sort this out for twenty years, it feels very close to resolution now
Very best wishes
Louise
07 October 05
Hi Louise, Not sure if you have this info, but I have been trawling through my Bradford Parish church records and have come up with the following BENN entries that I scribbled down a few years back. Don't know if they will help or hinder! St. Peter's, Bradford - Marriages 24 Dec 1866 Henry BARRACLOUGH, 23, Bach, Foundryman, Low Moor, Joseph, Foundryman Mary Ann BENN, 21, Spin, Low Moor, William, Bricklayer St. Peter's, Bradford - Baptisms1 Jun 1836 Samuel BENN s/o Benjamin & Mary, Shelf, Miner (born 26 Jan 1826) William BENN s/o Benjamin and Mary, Shelf, Miner (born 25 Sep 1830)
Regards
Martin
07 October 05
For this to be the correct Ruth Benn in 1871 she has to have been enumerated twice in 1861, once with her Jowlett grandparents and once with her parents.
1871 census RG10 4472 folio 66125 Old Road Horton Yorkshire George Jowett 64 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head Married farmer occupying 10 and a half acres Ruth Jowett 63 Halifax, Yorkshire, Wife Married Ruth Benn 15 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Granddaughter Mill Hand William Jowett 6 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson
1861 census RG9 3310 folio 3 0Beacon Road North Bierley Yorkshire George Jowett 53 Norland, Yorkshire, Head Married farmer of 5 acres Ruth Jowett 52 King Cross, Yorkshire, Wife Married Martha Jowett 19 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Power loom weaver stuff Mary Jowett 19 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Milliner Ellen Jowett 17 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Power loom weaver stuff George Jowett 15 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Jobber at a factory James Jowett 13 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Bobbin doffer Ruth Benn 5 Horton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
1861 census RG9 3310 folio 15Revey Hall North Bierley Yorkshire Samuel Benn 25 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Worsted weaver Elizabeth Benn 29 Horton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted weaver Ruth Benn 6 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Margaret Benn 4 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Ann Benn 2 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter
On the 1853 marriage George Jowlett's occupation is different from the 1861 and 1871 censuses as is Samuel's. Elizabeth is 20 on her marriage in 1853 (and therefore underage - the banns should give by consent of parents) - her age in 1861 is close enough. Samuel again with an age of 20 on marriage, signifying he is under age with a birth date of circa 1833 should have been 28 on the 1861 census. The marriage is nearer the later censuses birth date which are all nearer the necessary circa 1832 potential birth. Louise you could do with obtaining a copy of the Samuel and Elizabeth marriage and a birth certificate of Ruth and her marriage if Brenda has it - any certificates around in fact.
FreeBMD has almost nil coverage of marriages in 1853. You could also do with asking all these descendants what they think happened to Samuel and Elizabeth before you get too bogged down with all the descent lines from Samuel and Elizabeth.Whether they have baptisms for Samuel and his siblings
Whether they have Samuel and his parents a)on the 1851 census b)on the 1841 census. You need to have William and Mary on a census for their approximate age and to look for their deaths, before you speculate with the IGI on their marriage and baptisms. With so many Benns around and the fact that Samuel and his siblings’ baptisms are not on the IGI I think it would be dangerous to speculate further about the line before you try to tighten up ages and places as much as possible from the censuses. Can you find a William and Mary Benn on the 1851 census for Bradford? I know Samuel can't be with them, because you have already done a search for Samuel Benns and not found the right one. So can you find a William and Mary with any of their supposed younger children - ones not married e.g. Margaret (born circa 1832), Joshua (born circa 1837) or Elizabeth (born circa 1818) but didn't marry until later in 1851, or possibly Mary (born circa 1825) whose marriage date we don't yet know.
Regards
Valda
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07 October 05
Louise...Don't know if the possible double census entry is throwing you, but to put your mind at rest I have found numerous instances of double and even triple entries in the census records throughout the years.
Martin
07 October 05
Not sure of the relevance but King Cross is in Halifax near the town center. Revy (Reevy) Hall was very near what is now Beacon Road, Wibsey. Beacon road leads to Beacon Hill and Horton Bank Top passing over and to the right of Wibsey Slack with Harbour to the left (going away from Bradford). Old Road runs parrallel and perhaps 200 yards to the right. Even though officialdom proclaims new place names and boundaries the old ones are kept alive by the people. With an Harbour so close why shouldn't my Sam be a Crabber? sorry I couldn't resist that one.
Dave
08 October 05
Hi Valda, I received my info from 1999 from Bob Chapple who provided me with information from a census. I apologize with my crashed computer and data base, I'll have to look up the details from the hard copy records that I kept. Also, I do have a copy of the certified copy of an entry of birth for William Benn, which is difficult to read but looks as though date of birth is July 8, 1863. The birth certificate indicates the father is Samuel Benn and the mother is Elizabeth Benn formerly Jowett. I descend from their son, William Benn. I'll go back through the items that I have and see what else I have on file. I don't have the details on Samuel's early life or the details of Samuel and Elizabeth's life, just the info from the census and William's birth certificate. Hope this helps for starters.
Valerie Konchis
08 October 05
Hi Louise, I agree that Bob Chapple may be able to help to sort out the Samuels. I emailed Lewis to let him know of your interest.
Valerie Konchis
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08 October 05
The idea that Ruth (aged 5 or 6) was enumerated twice in the 1861 census sounds very likely. Perhaps she popped back and forth between her home and her JOWETT grandparents' place. One could just imagine Samuel BENN and wife Elizabeth carefully enumerating all their children (Ruth, Margaret and Ann) on the census schedule - thinking they were doing the right thing. And, at the same time, also trying to do the right thing, George JOWETT and wife Ruth carefully include granddaughter Ruth on their schedule because she actually slept at their place on census night ... With all the BENNs around, the enumerator was hardly going to notice the duplication ...Incidentally Revey/Revy Hall (as Reevy Hall) and Beacon Road (as Lane) can be seen on the Old Maps site at
http//www.old-maps.co.uk
Enter coordinates 413552,430247
For my own benefit I'm going to summarize on the basis that all of the Samuels below are one and the same person - this will also highlight inconsistencies of age, birthplace, etc.Ca 1833Possible birthdate of Samuel BENN (from age of 20 at marriage in 1853), possible father being William BENN (from Samuel's 1853 marriage cert).This might?? be William BENN who married Mary FOSTER in 1816 in Bradford (extracted entry from IGI).Possible children*Elizabeth b 19 Mar, bap Jun 1818, Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton by Bradford (extracted entry from the IGI, parents William and Mary) - said to be an Elizabeth BENN who married a James ISHERWOOD in 1851 a possible child Zillah b ca 1820 Chatt Hill said to be a Zilla BENN who married a Charles WORSNOP in 1841 Mary b ca 1825 and said to have married John HARTLEY Margaret b ca 1833 and said to be a Margaret BENN who married an Isaac KELLETT 1849*Samuel b ca 1834 and said to be the Samuel who married Elizabeth JOWETT 1853 Joshua, b ca 1837 from age of 4 in 1841 (possibly the same as LDS submission for a John b 1835)1841 census From Louise's post, 2 Nov, on page 11This seems likely to be Samuel. Census 1841 HO.107/12922/2 p12 Brown Royd Hill, North Bierley Mary Benn 45 Elizabeth Benn 20 Stuff weaver Mary Benn 15 Stuff weaver Margaret Benn 8 Samuel Benn 7 Joshua Benn 4
1851 census We don't have Samuel yet in 1851. His residence was given as Horton when he married in 1853. 23 Aug 1853 Samuel BENN, 20, a mechanic, residence Horton, father William BENN a weaver married Elizabeth JOWETT, 20, a weaver, residence Horton, father George JOWETT a comber
(note in the 1861 census George is a farmer of 5 acres, and in 1871 a farmer of 10 1/2 acres)1861 census Samuel BENN, 25, born Shelf, a worsted weaver is at Revey Hall, North Bierley. Wife Elizabeth, 29, born Horton. Children are Ruth ca 6 (enumerated twice - once with her JOWETT grandparents in Beacon Rd, North Bierley, as age 5 b Horton, once with parents as age 6 b North Bierley) Margaret 4 b Horton Ann 2 b Horton
1871 census Benjamen BENN (we believe that Benjamen is an enumeration error for Samuel), 34, born Shelf, is still at Revy Hall, North Bierley Wife Elizabeth, 39, born Braceland. Children are now Ruth 15 (a mill hand, b Wibsey, living with her JOWETT grandparents at 125 Old Rd, Horton) Margret 13 b Horton Ann 11 b Horton Zillah 9 b North Bierley William 7 b North Bierley Mary 5 b North Bierley Martha 2 b North Bierley Joshua 7 months b North Bierley.
Continued in Part 2
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08 October 05
Part 2 So far it has been fairly straightforward – apart from Samuel growing steadily younger, Samuel being wrongly enumerated as Benjamen, Elizabeth’s birthplace changing, and their daughter Ruth being enumerated twice in a census. But now the plot thickens. It seems that Samuel BENN and his wife Elizabeth JOWETT separated - sometime between ca 1873 when Ellen, the youngest of the 9 children, was born (Ellen’s marriage certificate to Thomas WOOD lists her father as Samuel BENN, overlooker of weavers) and the time of the 1881 census. We have looked at all the Samuel BENNs in the censuses and what seems to be the inescapable conclusion is that Samuel BENN, husband of Elizabeth JOWETT, fathered Louise’s ancestor John William/Wilson BENN, b Feb 1881. Feb 1881 John William BENN is born in Bradford. John's father is listed as Samuel BENN. His mother is listed as Eliza BENN maiden surname LISTER. Eliza had married Thomas VIPOND in 1872. They had a daughter Ellen VIPOND in 1873. We do not know the fate of Thomas VIPOND. Eliza also had a son Walter Doughty VIPOND b 1879 Bradford (he d 1882 Bradford) but his father's name is blank on his birth cert. In 1881, Eliza’s son John William BENN was born. In 1884, Eliza, described as Eliza VIPOND, a widow, married John LONG. Ellen VIPOND was still with Eliza and her LONG husband and LONG son Joshua in 1891 but John William BENN was not. It is believed that John grew up as John WILSON he joined the army in 1899 as John WILSON. However, he married Daisy Kate HILTON in Scarborough in 1903 as John Wilson BENN and his father’s name was listed as Samuel BENN, weaving overlooker.
The puzzle of just what happened to John is yet to be resolved. Interestingly the witnesses at Eliza’s marriage to John LONG in Bradford in 1884 were a HILTON and a WILSON.1881 census Samuel BENN is at 26 Bank, Eccleshill. Samuel BEEN (sic), Master (sic), married, 40, b Shelf, Weaving Overlooker (Out of Employ) Eliza VIPOND, Wife (sic), married, 25, b Bradford, Worsted Weaver Ellen VIPOND, Daur (sic), 8, b Bradford, ScholarWalter D VIPOND, Son (sic), 1, b Bradford John W VIPOND (sic), Son, 1 month, b Eccleshill Elizabeth (JOWETT) BENN is at 77 Kingswood St, Horton in Bradford Elizabeth BENN, Head, married, 49, b Bursland With her are children Zilliah (sic) 19, William 17, Mary 15, Martha 13, Joshua 10 all b North Birley (sic) and Ellen 8 b Bradford also granddaughter Martha A SUGDEN 4 b Bradford.1891 census Samuel BENN, married, age 50, born North Bierley, a cloth weaver, is a Lodger at 20 Lane Bottom, Idle (Later edit the Head of household was Hannah ILLINGWORTH, a widow with children - she was b ca 1849 in Idle) Elizabeth BENN is at 10 Watmough St, Bradford Elizabeth BENN, married, age 59, b North Bierley With her are children Martha 22 b North Bierley, and Ellen 18 b Bradford.29 Aug 1891Samuel BENN dies at Lane Bottom, Windhill, Idle, age 53, powerloom woollen cloth weaver, informant is a Hannah ILLINGWORTH occupier of the same address.1901 census Elizabeth BENN, now a widow, is still at 10 Watmough St, Bradford but the head of household is her son-in-law, Thomas WOOD (Thomas had married Elizabeth’s youngest child, Ellen) Elizabeth BENN, Mother-in-law, widow, age 69, b HalifaxJun qtr 1901? Death of Elizabeth BENN, 69, in Bradford. Corrections, additions, alternative explanations?
JAP
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08 October 05
Thanks JAP. I can save that section and work from that instead of continually going back to try and find information on the thread. The 1861 census does have a widow Mary in North Bierley which is another reason for requesting a search of the 1851 census for William and Mary. Having tracked this Mary to the 1871 census, I think she probably isn't Samuel's mother and it is just yet another Benn line (she might be the widow of a Joseph Benn instead who also married in 1818 in Bradford to Mary Lightowlers which I only mention because I think her surname is so wonderful - tough on probably getting Mary Foster instead Louise). With so many Benns in such a 'confined' area Benn speculation is frustrating and far too dangerous. From the 1861 census it seems both William and Mary had probably died pre this census.
Regards
Valda
08 October 05
From the 1851 census of Bradford this looks like the only Samuel who is a possible candidate from the area we have been looking at.1 24 162 1 Buttershaw Benn Benjamin Head Mar M 54 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 2 Buttershaw Benn Mary Wife Mar F 48 Coal Miner's Wife Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 3 Buttershaw Benn Samuel Son Unm M 26 Weaver Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 4 Buttershaw Benn Sarah Daur Unm F 22 Weaver Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 5 Buttershaw Benn William Son Unm M 20 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 6 Buttershaw Benn Thos. Son Unm M 16 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 7 Buttershaw Benn Easter Daur - F 13 Weaver Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 8 Buttershaw Benn Harriet Daur - F 10 Scholar Yorks., Shelf Now could Mary have married twice into the Benn family ?Could children have been 'borrowed' from relatives to assist the family economy or to 'nurse' younger children? Don't forget that at this time children as young as 8 were working sometimes illegally full time and very often as half timers in the factories (Lydia Lightowlers age 8 was one of the victims of the Newlands Mill disaster 28th Dec 1883) incidently Manorley Lane is next door to Witchfield Shelf. A branch of the Lightowlers who are thought to originate from Blackstone Edge near Littlemoor, settled in that area and the name is still most abundant around there .It was not economically viable to take a mother or an older child out of work to nurse a baby so the younger children were often given the nurse task. Sorry if this throws more spanners into the works.
Dave
09 October 05
Hi Dave, Not too big a spanner! Louise posted the records of each Samuel BENN in the 1851 Bradford census (page 2) and an effort was made to eliminate those which could be ruled out. One of these was Samuel, son of Benjamin and Mary of Buttershaw - he is believed to be the Samuel who died in 1857 (there is a discrepancy in age at death vis-a-visage in the 1851 census but it looks like the right Samuel).The death entry was among several posts (page 3) of miscellaneous information which Louise had received from another BENN researcher. The information included the following Blackburn Register no 86 Shelf Parish Church...108 Samuel son of Benjamin and Mary Benn of Buttershaw died 5th October 1857 aged 26 Benjamin (above) died 7th January 1864 aged 67 Mary (wife of above) died 9th July 1894 aged 92 Google tells me that, ca 1930, an Arthur Blackburn transcribed tombstone and monumental inscriptions, covering about 120 churches, chapels, graveyards and cemeteries in the Bradford area. What would be good to find would be William BENN, father of the Samuel BENN who married Elizabeth JOWETT, in the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
Cheers,
JAP
Just to summarize entries in the IGI for Benjamin and Mary and the census family (IGI indicating an extracted entry, LDS a submission by a member of the LDS all events Bradford).Possible marriage Benjamin BENN m Mary WHITE 24 Feb 1834 (IGI) Yes, this marriage is later than the birthdates of the first three children perhaps Benjamin married two ladies called Mary with only the second marriage being in the IGI - there's the marriage of a Benjamin BENN and a Mary HARRISON in Halifax in 1820. Or perhaps the couple didn't marry until they'd had several children (note that all the baptisms postdate the marriage date). That's just speculation. Census children of Benjamin and Mary Samuel b 26 Jan 1826 (LDS), bap 1 Jun 1836 (IGI) - died 1857 (page 3) Sarah b 28 Aug 1828 (LDS), bap 15 Oct 1834 (IGI) William b 25 Sep 1830 (LDS), bap 1 Jun 1836 (IGI) - both those dates confirmed per Martin from Parish Register (page 7) Thomas bap 15 Oct 1834 (IGI) Easter/Esther b 15 Jun 1837 (LDS) Harriet - no record in the IGI In the 1881 census on FamilySearch, what must be the widowed Mary is in Orlean St, North Bierley in the household of her son-in-law George PETTY (husband of her daughter Esther)Mary BENN, Mother in Law, Widow, 78, born Shelf
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09 October 05
I can't find Samuel either as Samuel or Benjamin and I can't see William or Mary. I've found Elizabeth who has married her husband and is giving her birthplace as Horton (perhaps her late marriage indicates the death of the last parent) and Zillah who also says born Horton. I can't find Mary as a Hartley or Margaret or Joshua who I presume died young, or in the case of Margaret married somebody. The Jowett family is more ameniable
HO 107 2310 folio 24633 M? Pond Horton Yorkshire George Jowett 44 Norland, Yorkshire, Head Married Woolcomber Ruth Jowett 43 Norland, Yorkshire, Wife Married Elizth Jowett 19 Barkisland, Yorkshire, Daughter P Loom Wool Worsted Jonas Jowett 16 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Mill Hand Margaret Jowett 14 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Mill Hand Willm Jowett 12 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Woolcomber Mary Jowett 9 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Ellen Jowett 7 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Martha Jowett 9 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter George Jowett 6 Horton, Yorkshire, Son James Jowett 3 Horton, Yorkshire, Son
Regards
Valda
09 October 05
Well, I guess it's some small consolation to see that Elizabeth's Braceland or Bursland birthplace was actually Barkisland as Dave suggested)
JAP
09 October 05
Sorry, failing memory and too lazy to look back at all the ground that has been covered. JAP you must have a great filing / indexing system. 'Married in 1853 calc age 20' I looked at all the Samuels in South and South West Bradford with mother Mary and the one I mentioned was the only one of anywhere near the right age. How did we get to Mary? If we now assume that Samuel was not at home in 1851 and that William had died or had not yet married the widow Mary then this could be the right family
Again Bradford 1851 N. Bierley2 40 75 1 Slack Side # Benn Mary Head Wid F 53 - Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 2 Slack Side # Benn Hannah Daur Unm F 24 Power Loom Weaver Stuff Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 3 Slack Side # Benn James Son Unm M 22 Coal Miner Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 4 Slack Side # Benn Rose Daur Unm F 19 Power Loom Weaver Stuff Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 5 Slack Side # Benn Mary Daur - F 13 Worsted Spinner Yorks., North Bierley 2 40 75 6 Slack Side Benn Sarah ann G Daur - F 5 Schoolar Yorks., North Bierley 2 40 75 7 Slack Side # Benn Amos Son - M 2 Schoolar Yorks., North Bierley 2 40 75 8 Slack Side Speight Ruth Niece Unm F 24 Power Loom Weaver Stuff Yorks.
North Bierley Illegitimacy carried much more stigma then than now and Samuels mother would have wanted to put a father's name on the birth certificate - even if it was not the right one - Also Samuel would have wanted a fathers name on his wedding certificate even if that was not the right one. I have a grandparent down as the father on one of my ancestors wedding certs. Of course a copy of Yorkshire 1851 on CD would be the best way to go about this exercise or wait until Ancestry finally get 1851 on their site. Either way expensive. Note that Arthur Blackburns registers are a great source of research but only cover tombstone inscriptions. Most poor families could not afford a tombstone.
Dave
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09 October 05
JAP you must have a great filing / indexing system.
Well, yes I do! It's called TMG - The Master Genealogist. BUT, unfortunately, I haven't entered Louise's people into it '( So I've been reduced to (and still am) two other filing/indexing systems - (a) the one we all have called the human brain, and (b) the one all of us RootsChatters have namely previous posts!! And, as I said earlier, after dredging back through my memory and all the pages of this thread time and time again, I only wished I'd entered the information into TMG! That's why I summarized the pertinent Samuel stuff a few posts back - as an aide-memoire to myself ) 'Married in 1853 calc age 20' I looked at all the Samuels in South and South West Bradford with mother Mary and the one I mentioned was the only one of anywhere near the right age. How did we get to Mary? We arrived at William from the father's name on the quoted marriage cert of Samuel BENN to Elizabeth JOWETT in 1853. Arriving at Mary is a different matter. I think that this was from a recently quoted post from a mailing list of ages ago, and from the baptisms a couple of posts back
Of course a copy of Yorkshire 1851 on CD would be the best way to go about this exercise or wait until Ancestry finally get 1851 on their site. Either way expensive
Well, Louise has the Bradford 1851 CD and, now that 1851 has come online on Ancestry, Valda has checked it out (see a post or two above) but no luck so far it seems ... Perhaps we have to consider various other possibilities - Samuel was mistrancribed (certainly we have seen BENN mistranscribed previously) Samuel was missed by the census (deliberately on his part or otherwise) Samuel was somewhere we would not have expected him to be and with his birthplace not what we would have expected or his age was wildly astray or his name wasn't really Samuel or wasn't really BENN etc, etc.1841 is still a possibility??Samuel was RELATIVELY straightforward from 1853-1871 but led us a merry dance thereafter. I'd hoped he'd be pretty straightforward before 1853 but it seems I was kidding myself
Cheers,
JAP
09 October 05
The widow Mary Benn is who I followed through the 1861 and 1871 censuses and who I'm fairly sure (she was with her son James who I checked against his IGI baptism) is the widow of Joseph Benn. The 1851 census tends to confirm I had the right baptism for James and the right father - a check on a more unusually named sibling from the 1851 census gives you From the IGI Rose Benn Birth 25 MAY 1831 Bradford, Yorkshire Father Joseph Benn Mother Mary
At this point we are running with the possibility of this marriage for Samuel's parents WILLIAM BENN MARY FOSTER Marriage 11 AUG 1816 Bradford, Yorkshire The first child Elizabeth's non-conformist baptism in 1818 (there could be no non-conformist marriages pre 1837 - all marriages taking place in Anglican churches or at least with Anglican rites, except Quakers, Foreign churches and illegal Catholic ceremonies) and then nothing on the IGI and therefore one presumes the other information about the remaining children plus the older Elizabeth came from the 1841 census - hence the gap between Elizabeth and the younger children (with any other children between either dead or left home and no information on them).The 1851 census would seem to show both William and Mary have died between censuses, unless Mary had remarried. There is a possibility that Margaret Benn may have married Isaac Kellett in 1849. She and her husband are in Horton with their young son on the 1851 census. Margaret born Horton circa 1832.
The whole family is missing from the 1861 and 1871 censuses. This would just leave (of the known children) Samuel and Joshua (who may have died young) missing from the 1851 census. Samuel may have had a brief excursion into the army as that's pretty common and could be abroad, or he could have just avoided getting enumerated - also a common young singleton male activity. I can't see a mistranscription for him (unless it really is a totally off the wall one).
I've checked all Sam* born Yorkshire within 5 years of his proposed birthdate in the whole country with a surname something like Benn (there are over 2,000 Samuels of any surname, in Yorkshire alone within a five year radius of a birth year circa 1830, going up to over 4,500 if you do the search for 5 years either side of 1835 on born Yorkshire.At this point I can't see any reason for speculating about Samuel's parentage and siblings further and making it more complicated than it necessarily need be. Bob Chapple should have the family on the 1841 census, as well as further parish records on them - if only burials. As a one namer myself I can supply this basic level of information as 'standard'.
Regards
Valda
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09 October 05
You see what happens, you go away for the weekend and another page gets filled in. So now I don’t need to check the 1851 census again, as I had sat down to do, because it is online and Valda has done it, thanks, that is great! Sorry it didn’t help though. I notice in a late post that we were wondering where Samuel and Joshua might have been in 1851. Where they the Samuel and Joshua in Huddersfield with the Sugdens that I found last week? A very dear friend of mine from Cleckheaton - next to all the places we are talking about - is called Lightowler. A small world.JAP - that was a great summary and I could not find fault with a word of it. In fact, if truth be told, I was almost tearful to think about how much you are all investing in this puzzle. That is probably only something you can experience if you have been the beneficiary of such help and hard work from others. I do hope you and Valda and Dave and everyone else who has helped, do put up their own puzzles so that I too can find a way of helping in return. I know I read a post earlier that gave me my next instructions, but cannot see it now, please can you (JAP? Valda?) PM me with them. I have emailed Bob Chapple, so far to no avail, will try again.
Best wishes
Louise
09 October 05
Here is some random information that I looked up as part of my five pounds worth on the site I named before and have now forgotten, but for which I recognised copyright. I hope that if you find any of the information potentially useful, you will tell me which bits to pay more to get, if anyBurials1. Name Samuel? BENN Date 7 Dec 1834 Aged 1 Place Leeds Description Hunslet St Mary Denomination Anglican County code WRY2. Name Samuel BENN Date 19 May 1814 Aged 5w Place Leeds Description St Peter Denomination Anglican County code WRY Kirklees 1851
Address Leeds Road Name Ann Benn Relationship to Head Dau Marital Status - Age 7 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Huddersfield Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 52. Address Leeds Road Name Lucy Benn Relationship to Head Dau Marital Status - Age 1 Occupation - Birthplace Huddersfield Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 53. Address Leeds Road Name Hannah Benn Relationship to Head Wife Marital Status M Age 27 Occupation - Birthplace Longwood Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 54. Address Leeds Road Name Joshua Benn Relationship to Head Head Marital Status M Age 31 Occupation Cart Driver Birthplace Elland Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 55. Address Leeds Road Name John R. Benn Relationship to Head Son Marital Status - Age 4 Occupation - Birthplace Huddersfield Township Huddersfield Parish – Piece 2295 Folio 111 Schedule 64 Enum. Dist. 5 Halifax
1851 census for Joshua Benn have not accessed details of each family as money ran out, this is only incidences of a Joshua in the index.1. Township Northowram Address Ellen Royd, Range Bank Name Benn Joshua Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 70 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Halifax County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1h Schedule 31 Folio 1512. Township Southowram Address Siddal Hall Name Benn Joshua Status Wr Rel Head gender Male Age 49 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Southowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 7 Schedule 12 Folio 5903. Township Elland cum Greetland Address Waterloo Name Benn Joshua Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 46 Occupation Coal miner Place of Birth Thornton County Yks deaf – Piece 2299 ED 1e Schedule 7 Folio 107 Halifax
1851 census for William Benn Township Northowram Address Hitchen Lane Name Benn William Status Wr Rel Lodg gender Male Age 38 Occupation Worsted weaver (by hand) Place of Birth Shelf County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 12 Folio 3862. Township Northowram Address Causeway end Name Benn William Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 38 Occupation Worsted weaver (by hand) Place of Birth Clayton County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 23 Folio 3873. Township Northowram Address Causeway end Name Benn William Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 14 Occupation Worsted spinner (at mill) Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 26 Folio 3874. Township Ovenden Address Bradshaw Lane Name Benn William Status U Rel Bro-in-L gender Male Age 25 Occupation Wool Comber Place of Birth Ovenden County Yks deaf – Piece 2301 ED 21 Schedule 23 Folio 3775. Township Southowram Address Swan Banks Name Benn William Status – Rel Son gender Male Age 14 Occupation Worsted Power Loom Weaver Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 2 Schedule 128 Folio 463
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09 October 05
Marriages in Halifax St Johns of women called Elizabeth Jowett On 11/05/1806 Groom James SPEAK Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 208 Groom Abode Ovenden Bride Abode Northowram.
On 11/10/1806 Groom John FIRTH Occupation Mason of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status W of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 378. Groom Abode Ovenden Bride Abode Ovenden3.
On 15/08/1807 Groom William SIMPSON Occupation Mason of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 736. Groom Abode Halifax Bride Abode Halifax4.
On 11/11/1821 Groom Matthew SHEARD Occupation Comber of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 115. Groom Abode Ovenden Bride Abode Ovenden.
On 29/07/1822 Groom Edward HOLDSWORTH Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 520. Groom Abode Northowram Bride Abode Northowram.
On 17/11/1828 Groom James HESSLEDEN Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 610. Groom Abode Northowram Bride Abode Northowram.
On 23/03/1818 Groom Thomas Carleton Occupation Dyer of OTP Bride Elizabeth Jowett Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 877. Groom Abode Halifax Bride Abode Southowram.
On 19/03/1837 Groom Samuel WILDE Occupation Comber of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 671. Groom Abode Sowerby Bride Abode Sowerby.
On 12/12/1835 Groom Jonas SUNDERLAND Occupation Weaver of OTP Bride Elizabeth JOWETT Status – of OTP by Banns/Licence B Register No. 633. Groom Abode Warley Bride Abode Warley
Entries in 1851 for George Jowett in Halifax census (ran out of money at this point) Township Halifax Address No 8 Square Road Name Jowett George Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 17 Occupation Tailor Place of Birth Halifax County Yks deaf – Piece 2298 ED 1bb Schedule 40 Folio 6212. Township Halifax Address 8 Lower Crib Lane Name Jowett George Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 11 Occupation Scholar Place of Birth Greetland County Yks deaf – Piece 2298 ED 1o Schedule 26 Folio 3303. Township Northowram Address Lidgett Name Jowett George Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 24 Occupation Stuff Dresser Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1ab Schedule 15 Folio 4654. Township Northowram Address 42 Doby Hall Name Jowett George Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 18 Occupation Jobber at Factory Place of Birth Sowerby County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1f Schedule 121 Folio 1135. Township Northowram Address 42 Doby Hall Name Jowett George Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 53 Occupation Wool Comber Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1f Schedule 121 Folio 1136. Township Ovenden Address Moorside Name Jowett George Status – Rel Son gender Male Age 2 Occupation – Place of Birth Ashton under Lyne County Lan deaf – Piece 2301 ED 11 Schedule 118 Folio 2057. Township Southowram Address Wakefield Bank Name Jowett George Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 40 Occupation Wool Comber Place of Birth Southowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2297 ED 4 Schedule 125 Folio 531- with same concerns about the unlikely number of deaf people Let me know which to expand upon
Louise
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09 October 05
"I notice in a late post that we were wondering where Samuel and Joshua might have been in 1851. Were they the Samuel and Joshua in Huddersfield with the Sugdens that I found last week?"
Now that's an interesting remark from Louise. Did I lose this information somewhere in amongst all the rest? I can't find a Samuel or a Joshua in Huddersfield on the 1851 census that looks hopeful, however there are 60 Sugdens in Huddersfield, so I could do with having the search narrowed down a bit. Can you please send me the exact reference so I can check the page itself. Which email are you using for Bob Chapple, Louise? Is it the one you can find here on the Guild of One Name Studies' website?
http//www.Blimey/cgibin/surname.cgi?find=benn&Go=Search
Strange that someone is doing a one name study of Benn and no-one is registered for Lightowler. If you go to the National Statistics database at
http//www.taliesin-arlein.net/names/search.php
you can check how rare having a friend with the surname Lightowler is, in comparison to knowing a Benn. Excluding people with surnames under 5 in total, Lightowler is the 6,667 most common surname in the country - so it’s reasonably rare. The 1851 census had 382 Lightowlers, 366 of whom were in Yorkshire which probably accounts for why I've never met one - it is rare and locative. Congratulations on passing the magic 1,000 hits!!!
Regards
Valda
10 October 05
The widow Mary Benn is who I followed through the 1861 and 1871 censuses and who I'm fairly sure (she was with her son James who I checked against his IGI baptism) is the widow of Joseph Benn. ...
Hi Valda, Are you saying that widow Mary BENN in the George PETTY household in the 1881 census is not Mary, the widow of Benjamin BENN of Buttershaw? I was pretty confident that she was as(a) George's wife is Esther, age 43, born Shelf this is exactly the right age and birthplace for Benjamin and Mary's daughter Esther (she was 13 in 1851, 23 in 1861).(b) George's mother-in-law Mary (78, born Shelf) is exactly the right age and birthplace for Benjamin's widow (she was 48 in 1851, 58 in 1861).(c) We know that Mary was a widow by 1881 (Benjamin of Buttershaw having died in 1864) and we know she was still alive in 1881 (she died in 1894)This is not important but just for completeness ...
Cheers,
JAPPS
Valda, I've just realized that you were no doubt referring to the widow Mary (53 in 1851, and the widow of Joseph) posted by Dave - not the widow Mary (78 in 1881, and the widow of Benjamin) I posted. Duh
10 October 05
This is the census I found with a Joshua Benn and a Samuel Benn staying with the Sugdens. It is 1841 though I see, not 1851 so might not be relevant, an amazing coincidence though if it is not. Then I looked at Kirklees in 1841 and found this family which I am sure is relevant, but cannot just work it all out at the moment. Kirklees is the borough for the area around Huddersfield which is no real distance away. Kirklees 1841 census1. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Mary Jane Sugden Age 4 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 482. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Elizabeth Sugden Age 43 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 483. Address Brick Bank Head Y Name Edwin Sugden Age 25 Occupation Blacksmith Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 484. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Joshua Benn Age 22 Occupation Cropper Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 485. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Samuel Benn Age 7 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 48
I emailed Bob on the email from the one name link yes, and the email was not returned undelivered, so ought to have arrived. Of course he could be on holiday or anything. I am a bit concerned though as I cannot find sight of him on message boards for three years. I will let you know as soon as I have anything - don’t forget to let me know which certificates I now need to buy
Regards
Louise
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10 October 05
By a twist of fate my birth father never knew of my existence. I was adopted within a few weeks of my birth and my search for my real parents has led me to this interest in family history. My birth fathers name - LIGHTOWLER. Incidentally the name is interpreted from the earlier LIGHTOLRES as meaning Light Alders. A place close to the family seat on Blackstone Edge has the name Light Hazels. A Llightowlers was the first mate on the Titanic, he survived to give evidence and in retirement took his yacht 'Sundowner' to Dunkirk to rescue soldiers from the beaches. Miriam Lightowlers (My ggGran) was the first Lady Mayor of Halifax and had a fire engine, a clock and a street named after her. It makes a full circle of my fan chart and the occupations look much better than weavers and woolsorters. I used the Bob Chapple email address from the Guild of One Name Studies and have had no reply but having said that I have not had an undelivered note either, perhaps he is on holiday.
Dave
PS Louise the 1841 census above doesn't look like 1841...Ages not rounded and too much info ?
14 October 05
I can't find Samuel either as Samuel or Benjamin and I can't see William or Mary. I've found Elizabeth who has married her husband and is giving her birthplace as Horton (perhaps her late marriage indicates the death of the last parent) and Zillah who also says born Horton. I can't find Mary as a Hartley or Margaret or Joshua who I presume died young, or in the case of Margaret married somebody.
Regards
Valda
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Valda, I think JAP refers on the next page (I am still reading this one) that you have checked the 1851 census which by sod's law has now come online a week or two after I bought it on cd!! Is that what this message refers to? I can only assume you told her that in a private message because it does not appear in this thread. I don’t understand the bit about Elizabeth having married her husband - are you saying she is on the 1851 census but he is not? Are we talking about Eliz Jowett here, or another Elizabeth. Sorry to be so thick.
I have fetched out the birth certificate for Samuel Benn that I have had for twenty years. I don’t have it in my hand at the moment but can tell you it was 1837 from memory, his father William Benn, his mother Martha nee Sutcliffe, born Stainland which is the other side of Halifax and probably a bit far away. I have had a partial refund from the GRO because the 1854 wedding certificate I ordered did not show the bride as being named Elizabeth. We know that now anyway, as the marriage was in 1853 according to Brenda who has the certificate. I feel that as Bob has not replied to our emails and for all we know, never will, we will have to progress without him for the time being. What proof do we have that Samuel, son of William and husband of Elizabeth had a mother called Mary, other than the fact researchers found the Thornton baptisms? Might this be yet another Samuel and not mine - given Valda's oft repeated point about how you could not walk round some parts of the area without falling over a Samuel Benn.
Do we know who made the LDS submissions about the baptism of children to William and Mary? I wonder where they got their information from. Elizabeth, Margaret, Samuel and John are the children named on the IGI but we also have a Zillah, Mary and Joshua from Valerie J - although she did not have a John recorded. Valerie, where did you get the names from? From Bob? Another quote I cannot let go without chuckling at comes from JAP concerning the whereabouts of Samuel on the 1851 census. "Perhaps Samuel was somewhere we would not have expected him to be and with his birthplace not what we would have expected or his age was wildly astray or his name wasn't really Samuel or wasn't really BENN etc, etc. Indeedy! I can see the 1841 census is critical and although Valda thinks Bob must have a copy of it in order to have come up with the names of William and Mary's children, he isn't here to tell us about it, so I need to find it myself. I will redouble my efforts to find where I can access Halifax 1841 census, the look-up request hasn't generated any interest so I may have to go to Halifax sometime and look at it myself in the flesh so to speak.
Dave re the entry you queried in the prior post to this, the 1841 census for Kirklees, I will have to pay another £5 to check that I have not made a mistake, and whilst I don’t mind doing that, I would prefer to have some more research to look up, to make it worth my while. Does anyone need anything looking up to do with their own family that might be found in a database on
www.familyhistoryonline.net?
Dave, as a Lightowler by birth, I wonder if you are related to my friend in Cleckheaton. I don’t know if she has done any work on her family tree. I must ask her and also let her know about the Titanic, very interesting. I hope Lewis emails me, he might have more information that could help. He might have a copy of the 1841 census that Bob is not around to let us see. Valerie, please will you give him my email address so that we can correspond.
Thanks again everyone
Love Louise
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15 October 05
I can't find Samuel either as Samuel or Benjamin and I can't see William or Mary. I've found Elizabeth who has married her husband and is giving her birthplace as Horton (perhaps her late marriage indicates the death of the last parent) and Zillah who also says born Horton. I can't find Mary as a Hartley or Margaret or Joshua who I presume died young, or in the case of Margaret married somebody.
Regards
Valda
Valda, I think JAP refers on the next page (I am still reading this one) that you have checked the 1851 census which by sod's law has now come online a week or two after I bought it on cd!! Is that what this message refers to? I can only assume you told her that in a private message because it does not appear in this thread.
Hello Louise, No, no private messages I deduced it from Valda's post on page 8 (quoted in part above). I don’t understand the bit about Elizabeth having married her husband - are you saying she is on the 1851 census but he is not? Are we talking about Eliz Jowett here, or another Elizabeth. Sorry to be so thick. There are so many similar names that it is very easy to become confused (as I did with comments about a widow Mary). I take it that, in the quote above, Valda is referring to Elizabeth BENN, daughter of William BENN, who - we have been told - was born in 1818 and married a James ISHERWOOD. It might help to identify them as e.g. Joshua (William) cf Joshua (Samuel), etc? Valerie (1999 Rootsweb message quoted by Valda on page 7) gave the family as William BENN and Mary (maiden name not known)*BENN Elizabeth (William) b 1818 m James ISHERWOOD Valda has given a FreeBMD reference for the marriage of Elizabeth BENN and James ISHERWOOD in Mar qtr 1851 Bradford*BENN Zillah (William) b 1820 m Charles WORSNOP Valda has given a FreeBMD reference for the marriage of Zilla (sic) BENN and Charles WORSNOP in Sep qtr 1841 Bradford. She also indicated that Charles and Zillah (with Zillah's birthplace as Chatt Hill - which is near Thornton) were in Manningham in 1861, and that by 1871 Charles had remarried.*BENN Mary (William) b 1825 m John HARTLEY*BENN Margaret (William) b 1832 BENN Samuel (William) b 1833 m Elizabeth JOWETT b 1832 Probably/possibly 'your' Samuel. Samuel is Valerie's ancestor (my understanding is that she is descended from Samuel's daughter Ann's son, William ORMONDROYD) There's also the email you quoted - page 8 - from Brenda (my understanding is that her husband is descended from Samuel's daughter Ruth who married Adam SUGDEN).
Brenda gave details of the marriage certificate of Samuel (William) BENN and Elizabeth (George) JOWETT, both resident in Horton, on 23 August 1853 in the Parish Church, Bradford*BENN Joshua (William) b 1837My understanding is that Valda is saying that the only members of the above family she could find in the 1851 census were Elizabeth (William) BENN, birthplace given as Horton, who was by then married to ISHERWOOD and Zillah (William) BENN, birthplace given as Horton, who was presumably with her WORSNOP husband. However Valda did find the George JOWETT family in 1851 in Horton and listed them - including what must be the Elizabeth (daughter of George) JOWETT who married Samuel (son of William) BENN in Aug 1853 (according to the marriage cert quoted by Brenda).What we don't know is the primary source of the information about the name of William BENN's wife, and about the names and birthdates of their children.
To add to the confusion, there are entries for children of a William BENN and a Mary in the IGI - and these might or might not be the same family (most are LDS submissions, and the match is not the best). There's Elizabeth b and bap 1818 Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton by Bradford (extracted entry) Margaret b 1830 Great Horton Samuel b 1832 Great Horton (LDS) John b 1835 Great Horton (LDS). We don't know who made the LDS submissions. So, yes, it does seem that there are a couple of critical areas at the present stage - finding the William BENN family in the 1841 census, and the primary source (which might well be the 1841 census?) of the information about William BENN, wife Mary, and their children. Let's hope that all or any of Brenda, Lewis and Valerie can provide more information about this.
Regards,
JAPPS
I suspect that the Kirklees extract in your post on page 7 is1841. Compare it with the amount of information in the 1851 extracts in that post (especially that the 1851 extracts include relationships and details of birthplace). As 1841 was the first 'normal' census, naughty enumerators did not always read their instructions carefully - and thus many of them (earning the undying gratitude of genealogists) entered precise, rather than rounded, ages. Also, the reference number (1275/3) seems to be the 1841 ref no – refer
http//www.hdfhs.org.uk/hfldf.htm
Perhaps having BENNs in a SUGDEN household just reflects how common the name BENN was! Yes, Samuel aged 7 would fit for Samuel (William) said to have been born in 1833, but Joshua aged 22 is no match for Joshua (William) said to have been born in 1837. I'd be waiting for more 1841 census information before spending more money on this extract.
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15 October 05
One of my messages begins rather abruptedly and if you look at the bottom you will see that Rootschat edited out the beginning part of the email. Suffice to say JAP's deduction is correct on my census source. Elizabeth a potential sibling of Samuel's was married and living with her husband on the 1851 census - her age for the 1818 circa birth year/baptism is consistent. FreeBMD gives the marriage reference in the March quarter of 1851. Zillah was also with her husband - again a consistent age from the information on her circa birth year which I presume comes from the 1841 census. I am also presuming the information from the 1853 Samuel marriage as given is correct (however you need to see a copy of the certificate Louise to confirm it in your own mind). The details fit the known Jowett information, including the father's occupation on the 1851 census. He had moved into farming by 1861.The marriage confirms Samuel's father was called William and eliminates other Samuels because they are not married to an Elizabeth. The information that confirms the family as a unit I feel can only be taken from the 1841 census as it would seem to me that both parents were dead by 1851 (unless the mother had remarried but I would think because of her age that is remote chance - or unless two different 1851 census indexes are both hiding the family). Samuel is unfound on the 1851 census but unless he was living with a sibling finding him would not help a great deal since he would just be a singleton male. Finding any other Samuels of the same age living with fathers not called William gives further confirmation they are eliminated. Your Samuel was not with either of his presumed sisters Elizabeth or Zillah (or even Margaret Kellett who may or may not be a sister).If you want to prove in the interim that either of these two women (Elizabeth and Zillah) had a father called William then you have their marriage references. Zillah is the more useful since her marriage was earlier. She might give an indication of where the family was in 1841 as she married in the September quarter of that year. With her marriage you might be able to put up a request on Rootschat for a look up in the 1841 census. Having said all this 'sod's law' will dictate that a reply will then immediately come through from Bob Chapple re the 1841 census and in the worst case scenario Zillah's marriage certificate doesn't give a father's name of William (in which case I think we can all throw in the towel).I have not found the marriage for the third sister Mary to John Hartley, but it could be around the sametime Samuel married. The other siblings I could find no record of which might mean they died or in the case of Margaret married (still the possibility of the Isaac Kellett marriage for her - Bradford 1849). In this email of 1999 Valerie lists this marriage as correct for Margaret.
http//genforum.genealogy.com/benn/messages/34.html
The 1851 census had Margaret Kellett as birthplace Horton circa 1832 - so another Horton (two siblings birth circa 1818 and 1832 give Horton as a birthplace, 1 sibling gives Chatt Hill circa 1825 on the 1851 census)By other known siblings, excluding Margaret, I just mean the young Joshua (I think the LDS submission by a church member of the son John may turn out to be a confusion for Joshua). Though sadly I think it unlikely, there is just a slim chance that Joshua was born late enough to have his birth registered. Since no Benn in this line really makes it that easy I can't think Samuel's potential younger brother Joshua will prove an exception to the rule. Unless they all died young there are potential gaps between the possible birth years of the possible Samuel siblings.1821-1824 1826-1831 1834-1836 though here Joshua on the end may just be a late child who occurs after the regular potential pattern of the others. If you do got to a West Yorkshire record office/local studies library Louise you might check what non-conformist records there are for this area and whether all of them are on the IGI. In the end trawling the Bradford parish registers baptism, marriage and burials for all these Benns (while trying to ignore all the other Benns - who may later turn out to be related) may be worth your while.
Regards
Valda
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15 October 05
One of my messages begins rather abruptedly and if you look at the bottom you will see that Rootschat edited out the beginning part of the email. Yes, I did notice that there had been an edit (though there was no indication what it was) - and wondered but thought it prudent not to ask! If you do got to a West Yorkshire record office/local studies library Louise you might check what non-conformist records there are for this area and whether all of them are on the IGI. In the end trawling the Bradford parish registers baptism, marriage and burials for all these Benns (while trying to ignore all the other Benns - who may later turn out to be related) may be worth your while. ... Yes, I had a bit of a look at this. I was interested to see that there are fairly extensive records for Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton by Bradford (where the extracted entry for Elizabeth 1818, parents William and Mary comes from) but I trawled through the batches and, while there are plenty of BENNs (not to mention JOWETTs and SUGDENs) around, Elizabeth is the only one there with pa William. Of course, another possibility in church records relates to burial records as Valda mentions - and these (including those for Kipping of course) are not in the IGI. And we have to remember that 'our' Samuel (sorry Louise and others, but after all this I do feel some sort of proprietary interest!) is supposed to have been born in Shelf (I think!) so who knows where he might (or might not) have been baptized! I'd really like to see what (if anything) more Brenda, Lewis and Valerie might have - especially 1841 census records.
Cheers,
JAP
Sunday 16 October 05
Just a little snippet that could help Potential churches in Shelf early 1800's Primitive Methodist Chapel LM (Low Moor ?) Wesleyan ChapelSt Michael and all the Angels (Per. Curars) -not sure what that means above taken from the old-maps.co.uk site The centenary book of the Shelf Bethel Chapel 1853-1953 (see Google) gives some of the interesting goings on in Shelf during that time. Louise I'm going to take you up on your offer. I'm looking for Fanny Greenwood Bland b. Bradford 1847 supposed to be living in Mill Hey Haworth 1851 with John age c. 26 b. Haworth Susan (Susey or Susannah) age 23 b. Bradford - should be b. Elland Hariett age 2 b. Bradford ?Mary Ann age 1 b. Bradford ? - should be 3 months b. Haworth On the Haworth transcription that I have seen she is missing. I could not find her on Bradford 1851 perhaps she is on Keighley or Halifax. The family had lived in Bingley at one time and were living in Midgley, Luddenden in 1861.There are various combinations of the name but all the early census returns have listed the family as Greenwood. I have not searched for combinations of the forename Fanny perhaps it has been transcribed as Nanny or Franny who knows?
Thanks
Dave
PS I visited the Bethel Chapel on the strength of one of these postings ... Grace and Isaac Benn.... Burials Shelf. I found the headstone and confirmed that they are my ancestors from the dates. Also Bob Chapple has replied to my email and I have sent some of my Benn info to him.
17 October 05
Dave - good news about the graves, well doneI will have a look for your people this week Did Bob say if he had received my email or whether he was readying himself to contact us with some information?
Louise
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17 October 05
Thanks Louise, I hope you have more luck than I did but don't let it take up too much of your time. If the Mill Hey, Haworth family is at the bottom of the census page would you have a look on the next page for me please. Bob didn't mention any recent emails but he did say that he had many Benn contacts and even though I wasn't in his line he has had contacts who were. He wanted my snails mail address because he has 10 pages (500 names) of Benn material to post to me. If he doesn't make contact with you I can forward the info that he sends.
Dave
20 October 05
Thanks Louise, I hope you have more luck than I did but don't let it take up too much of your time. If the Mill Hey, Haworth family is at the bottom of the census page would you have a look on the next page for me please. Dave
Dave, I have searched Kirklees and Halifax 1851 for Blands and Greenwoods, for all four, to no avail. Haworth and Keighley are not on the site. There is a Keighley District Family History Society with census indexes for sale for only a few pounds I notice though. Perhaps you should contact them? I can confirm that the Benn/Sugden census I earlier reproduced is indeed the Kirklees 1841 census. Bob has now been in touch and will be getting back to me in due course
Hurrah
Louise
22 October 05
Thanks Louise, The Keighley Family History group sounds like a good idea, I'm going to google them now. The Info arrived from Bob Chapple, tons of stuff that I didn't have but my basic tree and his are virtually the same give or take a year or two on some of the dates. It's great to find that someone else has covered over 200 years of family history and arrived independently, at exactly the same conclusions. I hope that your Samuel can now be given his correct place in time and space and reunited with his parents.
Very best regards to you and all the Joseph Dyson Listers
Dave
22 October 05
Part 2 BENN, Margaret 1877 December Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire COTTERILL, Joseph 1877 December Marriages Bradford Volume 9b page 124RG12 4458 folio 8653 Royd St, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire James Stephenson 24 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head Married Wool combing overlooker Margaret Stephenson 23 Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Stuff weaver Ruth Stephenson 2 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Zillah Stephenson 8 mths Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter
Valda, I have got a new census database running on my new swanky laptop. When I came to enter this entry above I wondered if you had missed a bit. I am dead happy that Margaret who had two daughters named Ruth and Zillah, who are named after her sisters and her Aunties, is a daughter of Samuel. But not married to Joseph Cotterill, rather to a James Stephenson. Or are you saying that she clearly is married to James but he does not appear on the freebmd? You said you only found one entry for Margaret's marriage, so either you did not find her marriage to James, but found the census instead, or you did find it but didn't record it. Perhaps FreeBMD is not up to date yet for that period and they are the unmatched couple of four individuals from that page. There may be more queries as I go on to record the info. Thanks again for all your help with this (I know I sound like a worn record but that doesn't mean I have stopped meaning it.
Louise
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22 October 05
As far as the Listers are concerned - you win some and you lose some and here I'm the bearer of bad tidings concerning your Bronte hopes.1861 census RG9 3228 folio 60 Well Lane HaworthJoseph Lister 48 outdoor labourer born HaworthBetty Lister 48 born Haworthplus 3 daughters. Valda
Well there is good news and there is good news. According to the IGI, a Joseph Lister married a Betty Hartley on 14th Feb 1831 in Haworth, I suggest they are the couple above. So the record of Joseph Lister marrying Betty Widdop on 28th July 1833 in Haworth is back in the frame for being my couple. So.....that means Patrick Bronte is back on for the marrying vicar!http//www.haworth-village.org.uk/brontes/patrick/patrick.aspThe above link goes into a bit more information about him.
Best wishes Louise (Oooooh how lucky am I??)
22 October 05
Part 3 On the 1881 census there is only one Benjamin Benn abt 1838 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head 2 Lister St, Halifax, Yorkshire Valda
I just stuck this quote in to point out the home address, Lister Street. Bradford is knee deep in Listers, so much so that they name parks and roads after them. A Joseph Lister invented penicillin or anaesthetic or something like that and is all over Google. And while I am on the subject, I find searching for William Benn, father of Samuel a bit of a task too as it turns out that the father of Anthony Wedgewood Benn, known as Tony Benn is William Benn. And on a separate thread that you are familiar with, searching for Heritage + Oxfordshire is a nightmare too - it is all about our heritage and the heritage lottery fund......
Sigh Louise
22 October 05
Marriages Sep 1873Benn Ruth Bradford, Y. 9b 42 one of the men was SUGDEN Adam Bradford Y. 9b 42 On the 1881 census Adam is a widower of 26 living alone in Horton (remember there is a Martha A. Sugden aged 4 born Bradford living with her grandmother Elizabeth on the same census) On the 1891 census Adam still a widower is in Horton with his 14 year old daughter Martha E. born Horton. It doesn't completely prove anything - I can't find Ruth Sugden's death registration on FreeBMD to help with an age and help prove it was Ruth Benn who probably married Adam Sugden, but on the 1871 census Adam Sugden was in North Bierley staying with his grandparents, so even though Ruth Benn can't be found on the 1871 census, which is where I came in, Adam is in the right place at the right time to be her potential spouse in 1873.
Valda, now that we know that this is the right connection you have made here above, please may we have the details for my new Benn relative, I think it was David, Brenda's husband that was descended from this couple, from Martha herself in fact I assume.
Thanks
Louise
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23 October 05
Your opening statement re Listers and Haworth presumes the same Joseph Lister did not marry twice, though I can't find a burial for a Betty/Elizabeth in between the two dates in Haworth. There are 16 Joseph Listers on the 1861 census in Yorkshire (nearly 30 years later) of the correct age to have married in the early 1830s - so some work to go on this to prove it one way or the other. At moment I do not have access to the 1851 census. There is a Joseph Lister born Haworth circa 1832 in Keighley 1861-1881 censuses but he is not showing on the IGI for Listers born Haworth to a father Joseph or indeed to anyone, but then there were Baptists in Haworth. WILLIAM LISTER Christening 22 APR 1832 Haworth ANN LISTER Christening 09 FEB 1834 Haworth JAMES LISTER Christening 13 MAR 1836 Haworth JOHN LISTER Christening 15 APR 1838 Haworth Batch coverage 1813-1847 children of Joseph and Betty Lister This is the Lister family in Haworth in 1861Joseph Lister abt 1813 Haworth, Yorkshire, Head (on the 1871 census he gives a birth circa 1811 of Yeadon)Betty Lister abt 1813 Haworth, Yorkshire, Wife (born circa 1811 in 1871)Martha Lister abt 1841 Haworth, Yorkshire, Daughter Sarah A Lister abt 1843 Haworth, Yorkshire, Daughter Susey Lister abt 1849 Haworth, Yorkshire, Daughter On the 1861 census these are the other Listers born Haworth Thomas Lister abt 1806 Haworth, Yorkshire, Head Keighley Yorkshire William Lister abt 1807 Haworth, Yorkshire, Brother-in-law Haworth Yorkshire (sister Martha Sutcliffe born circa 1802 Haworth) William Lister abt 1828 Haworth, Yorkshire, Head Keighley Yorkshire (with brother James born circa 1839 Kirkstall)I've rather lost the thread of the Listers now - too many Benns.
Do we know what your Joseph Lister's wife's maiden name was? I remember she was born Scotland. Presumably one of their children was born after civil registration so to prove her maiden name you will have to get one of those certificates and then you will know whether Haworth is a possibility or not. Otherwise collecting Haworth Listers isn't necessarily getting you anywhere. Re Margaret Benns marriage I accidentally took out the wrong spouse BENN, Margaret 1877 December Marriages Bradford COTTERILL, Joseph 1877 December Marriages Bradford STEPHENSON, James 1877 December Marriages Bradford Sugdens1871 census RG10 4442 folio 11Slack Side North Bierley Yorkshire Mary Sugden 78 Horton, Yorkshire, Head Widow House Keeper Mary A Sugden 37 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver William Sugden 18 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson Worsted Weaver Adam Sugden 16 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson Worsted spinning overlooke rFred Sugden 11 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson Same in 1861 apart from they are in North Bierley and everyone except the grandmother who still claims Horton as her birthplace, is born North Bierley. My tendency from the 1861 census would be to think Mary Ann the daughter could be the mother of all 3 boys?1881 census RG11 4456 folio 15585 Old Road, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire Adam Sugden 26 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Widower Worsted Weaver Living next door - no 8381 Old Road, Horton In Bradford, Yorkshire Elizabeth Lister 59 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Married House Keeper (crossed through) - wife of James Lister born circa 1815 Clayton according to the 1871 census or Horton 1861Joseph Lister 26 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Single Dyer Martha Lister 20 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Single Worsted Weaver1891 census RG12 3639 folio 66204 Southfield Lane Horton Sugden, Adam 35 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Head Widower Wool Warehouseman Sugden, Martha E. 14 Horton, Yorkshire Worsted Spinner
1901 census RG13 4166 folio 1467 Copley Street Bradford Yorkshire Adam Sugden 46 Bradford, Yorkshire, Head Married Warehouseman Woolpacker Elizabeth Sugden 51 Bradford, Yorkshire, Wife Married Weaver Alpaca From FreeBMD Martin, Elizabeth
1891 December Marriages Bradford Sugden, Adam 1891 December Marriages Bradford On the same page Sarah Hannah Sugden married a Thomas Campbell
Regards
Valda
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23 October 05
Hi Louise and Valda, I guess it's possible that you've still got Patrick BRONTE in the frame, Louise. But how on earth to find out! As we know, there are the following two Haworth marriages*Joseph LISTER m Betty HARTLEY 14 Feb 1831*Joseph LISTER m Betty WIDDOP 28 Jul 1833In the 1861 census, we have seen two families of a Joseph LISTER and wife Betty/Elizabeth*Joseph LISTER (an outdoor labourer) and wife Betty in Haworth with three daughters*Louise's Joseph LISTER (a wool sorter) and wife Elizabeth m.s. WIDDOP (b Scotland) in Bradford with their children. We know that Elizabeth's ms was WIDDOP because Louise obtained the birth certs of daughters Kezia and (Louise's) Eliza and they gave Elizabeth's maiden name as WIDDOP. So it's tempting to think that Betty in Haworth in 1861 is Betty HARTLEY. What next? I suppose the birth cert of one of the three daughters of Joseph and Betty living with them in Haworth in 1861 would be helpful in order to show whether their mother is HARTLEY - Martha b ca 1841, Sarah b ca 1843, and Susey b ca 1849 all b Haworth. Haworth is in Keighley registration district. FreeBMD has a Martha LISTER Mar qtr 1842 in Keighley, a couple of Sarah Ann LISTERs in Keighley (one Jun qtr 1943 and one Dec qtr 1844), and a Susey LISTER in Keighley Sep qtr 1848.If the mother of any of these girls (born in the 1840s) is Betty HARTLEY, this would mean that Joseph LISTER who married Betty WIDDOP in 1833 couldn't be the same man as Joseph LISTER who married Betty HARTLEY in 1831. And we'd be free to consider that Louise's Joseph LISTER is quite likely to be the Joseph LISTER who married Betty WIDDOP in Haworth - though it would not be proven. Is there any other piece of information which might be useful? I guess that it would be worth seeing the full entry for the marriage of Joseph LISTER and Betty WIDDOP from the Haworth parish register - just in the hope that there might be some clue there (occupation, parents' names, anything at all) ...JAPPS I've just been going back through the thread and found something I'd forgotten. From the 1851 census, Elizabeth (WIDDOP) LISTER's father was John WIDDOP, married, 65, a Wool Comber born Steeton, and she had a brother William WIDDOP, married, 45, a Wool Sorter born Wakefield - they were both in the household of Louise's Joseph LISTER in Manningham. I wonder where their wives were!
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23 October 05
On the principle you can hardly expect a West Yorkshire man to give the same place of birth twice on consecutive censuses you would hardly be suprised to find that John and William Widdop do not show on the 1861 census. As I can't check the 1851 census I do not know just how many Widdops with the same age and name can be found on that census to try and eliminate the candidates of the same age but different birthplace found on the 1861 census (one each but different occupations).All Widdops born Haworth on the 1861 census (the others are probably just giving Keighley to muddy the water) are born at a more recent date. So I'm confined to producing a Widdop born Steeton on the 1861 census just in case he proves of use later. Bit young though.
1861 census RG9 3282 folio 413 Westgate Halifax Yorkshire Benjamin Widop 35 Steaton, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Wollen Carder Mary Widop 32 Haworth, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Power loom weaver of worsted pieces. On the principle that Benjamin still thinks he was born in Steeton on the 1871 census when he was in living in Wilsden, he is either the exception that proves the rule as far as one of Louise's Yorkshire relatives goes, or he can't possibly be related, or at the very most only distantly.
Also on the 1871 census in Keighley is Mary Widdop a widow born Westburn Sussex circa 1787 who suddenly has a daughter Jane born Steeton circa 1828 who was born blind. No surprise therefore that on the 1861 census in Keighley, Mary was born circa 1791 in Westburn Sussex and daughter Jane circa 1828 in Kildwick.
I'm afraid I am now stepping out of what is laughingly called my recently acquired comfort zone i.e. places between Bradford and Halifax. However my map says Haworth is to the south west of Keighley on the road crossing the moor to Hebden Bridge where Heptonstall is (as in IGI baptisms). Steeton is on the road north west of Keighley to Skipton. Slightly further on the same road is Kildwick. Bingley is between Keighley and Bradford to the south west. So at least we do seem to be establishing a West Yorkshire triangle where all Louise's relatives disappear into Keighley/Halifax/Bradford (or may be Skipton/ Hebden Bridge and Bradford) to be precise. Wakefield of course ruins the Bermuda analogy.
There are 30 Widdops on the 1861 census born Keighley including George born circa 1801 who is in Haworth. Including Jane already mentioned, there are 4 born Kildwick, one of whom is a gardener born circa 1786 called John lodging in Manningham. Another is Abraham born circa 1788 a blacksmith in Bingley with his wife also born Kildwick and finally John in Keighley born circa 1816 a wool comber. On the same page as John is Betty born Keighley circa 1788 a widow and baker of her own bread. And then there are all the Silsden Widdops (which seems pretty close to Kildwick and Steeton) and the Bingley Widdops, so there is easily as many of these as there were Benns to give a wide variety of birth permutations and dopplegangers.
Widdop as a surname is registered with the Guild of One Name Studies (no email address though) so I would suggest Louise that you might want to contact the person concerned. You must include a stamped addressed envelope. One namers to remain in the Guild must always reply to any enquiry but only if you include a SAE to be
sure.http//www.Blimey/cgibin/surname.cgi?find=widdop&Go=Search
Regards
Valda
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24 October 05
Hello friendsI see that the IGI has a baptism of a William Widdop to John Widdop and Susey in 1806 in Heptonstall at the Wesleyan Methodist, born August, baptised November. Heptonstall I can tell you is up the steepest hill I have ever climbed, even in a car, above Hebden Bridge. It is also the village/hamlet place where Sylvia Plath is buried. I am not keen to claim it though, even though it is not too far away, because Betty Widdop (our Eliza's mother) had hordes of kids, and not one of them a Susey. For John Widdop, Betty's father, I rather fancy John Widdop, baptised 05 AUG 1792 Kildwick, Yorkshire, England but born apparently on 05 AUG 1786 Son of Elizabeth and William. I think we established somewhere that John was born in Steeton which is in Kildwick, have I got the geography right? I like this particularly because the only known children of our John Widdop are William and Elizabeth!
Louise
25 October 05
Hi Louise, Nice to leave the BENNs for a while! As for Patrick Bronte and now Sylvia Plath ... Fascinating. Yes, living in Joseph Dyson Lister's household in Manningham in 1851 was Joseph's father-in-law John WIDDOP, a Wool Comber, age 65, married (but no wife with him), born Steeton. There was also Joseph's brother-in-law William LISTER(sic), a Wool Sorter, married, age 46, born Wakefield - perhaps LISTER should have read WIDDOP but we can't know that for sure. So I think that the only certain child we have for John WIDDOP is Elizabeth (Betty) WIDDOP later LISTER b ca 1811 in Scotland. And yes, Genuki lists Steeton as being in the parish of Kildwick. See
http//www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Kildwick/
On the supplementary page is the following"STEETON, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division and liberty of Staincliffe (Steeton Hall, the seat of William Sugden, Esq.) 2 miles NW. of Keighley, 7 from Skipton, 11 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. including Eastburn, 753 which being united, form a township. There are photos of the Steeton churches. So John WIDDOP's age of 65 in 1851 and birthplace of Steeton, certainly fits precisely with the IGI entry for John born 1786 (bap 1792) in Kildwick, parents William WIDDOP and Elizabeth. And as you said back on page 4"Eliza Lister was born in 1856, daughter of JDL and Elizabeth (Betty) Widdup. Betty Widdup's father is John Widdup and he comes from what looks to me like a reasonably clear line going back a few generations in Kildwick. We don’t know why, where or exactly when Betty was born in Scotland but I may have to live with that. Yes, a whole Kildwick line could be constructed from the IGI (no proof of course!).William WIDDOP m Ann LAYCOCK 1748. A William and Ann had Elizabeth bap 1749, Ann bap 1753, William bap 1755, John bap 1762.William WIDDOP (the one bap 1755?) m Elizabeth MOORHOUSE 1776. A William and Elizabeth had Mary 1779, Ann 1784 (bap 5 Aug 1792) and John 1786 (also bap 5 Aug 1792) - John possibly being the father of Elizabeth (WIDDOP) LISTER. Returning to John WIDDOP, Joseph LISTER's father-in-law, there was a possibility for him in 1861 - John WIDDOP, 75, married (again no wife with him), a gardener (hmm?), born Kildwick, a lodger in the household of 33yo widow Hannah ACKROYD in Manningham. This might or might not be the right John though it looks quite likely. What would be worthwhile now? Finding John WIDDOP in the 1841 census might be interesting - with luck he might even have a wife with him! Incidentally, has the Joseph Dyson LISTER household yet been found in the 1841?Perhaps the actual 1833 marriage entry in Haworth for Joseph LISTER and Betty WIDDOP might help - though probably not. And, especially, as Valda says, writing to the lady who is doing the One Name Study on WIDDOP (many variants). She may well have a wealth of information.
Cheers,
JAP
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31 October 05
What a fantastic (and interesting) thread! By now you may have solved "which Farnley is it?" But if not, the Farnley mentioned as in 1871 CensusP4540 ED30 F32 SN94 Dwelling 8 Play Ground, Farnley David ORMONDROYD Head M 39 Coal miner North Bierley Ellen ORMONDROYD Wife M 38 North Bierley Sargent ORMONDROYD Son 14 Stuff warehouse boy Pudsey Melissa ORMONDROYD Dau 12 Cotton factory hand Pudsey Ben ORMONDROYD Son 9 Scholar PudseyAnn ORMONDROYD Dau 6 Scholar Pudsey is definitely New Farnley, Leeds LS12. Play Ground was not far from the school which was on the corner of Lawns Lane. New Farnley itself was - actually still may be - accessed from Whitehall Road. Farnley Hall, near St Michaels Church, was owned by the Armitage family.
Regards,
Lindsay
31 October 05
Thanks very much Lindsay, and welcome I have heard from Bob and he is posting me some information this week, so fingers crossed. I have also heard from the family of Ellen Vipond who do not know either what happened to her father Thomas, the slater. I have said in this thread that I will sort that out at some point, and so I will. I will be back the very second I hear from Bob
Best wishes
Louise
31 October 05
Hi, I'm going off at a tangent again. I notice one or two Ormandroyds mentioned within this thread. I have the family of Samuel b. Cir 1844 and married to Ruth (Bastow). Their dau. Sarah married Henry Bland - my line. Also I have William Benn b. 1831 marrying Matty Ormandroyd in 1852. This union was recently acquired from Bob Chapple. Does anyone have a connection to these? Steeton, Kildwick and Crosshills as JAP says are all within a stones throw of each other. Before Dr Beechin's time Steeton and Kildwick were served by the same railway station. If you travel from Bradford along the Aire valley the boundary is such that you go from Bradford into Keighley then back into Bradford and then back again into Keighley .I mention all this because I was in Steeton last night. The Airedale Hospital is there and it was where Isobel Skye, my first grandchild was born at 1157 AM yesterday - 7lbs 3oz - mother and baby doing fine. See I'm learning the language already.
Best regards
Dave
31 October 05 2016
Congratulations Dave Welcome to Isobel Skye, nice to see you are pushing your family tree forward as well as back! Have you been in touch with Martin (treemaker) about your Ormandroyds? I would send him a PM if I were you, he seems to have a few of these in his tree
Regards
Louise
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01 November 05
Dave I have finally found your family in the 1851 census, except that Fanny is not with them! Perhaps she was staying with grandparents? Harriet Greenwood abt 1849 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Haworth Yorkshire John Greenwood abt 1825 Bradford, Yorkshire, Head Haworth Yorkshire Mary Ann Greenwood abt 1850 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Haworth Yorkshire Susannah Greenwood abt 1828 Bradford, Yorkshire, Wife Haworth Yorkshire Joseph Houldsworth abt 1829 Bradford, Yorkshire, Relative Haworth Yorkshire Robert Wright abt 1829 Ellel, Lancashire, Boarder Haworth Yorkshire HO107/2287824page 41Household 154
Regards
Louise
01 November 05
Hi, Thanks Louise, yes I think that must be the transcription that I saw earlier on the Haworth transcription that I have seen she is missing. I could not find her on Bradford 1851 perhaps she is on Keighley or Halifax.' The transcriber seems to have made a complete hash of this one. Susannah was born in Elland. Harriet was born in Haworth and Mary Ann was born in Haworth. Rachel Holdsworth (without the 'u') widowed Grandmother was living in Diamond Street, Bradford in 1851. (Her son Joseph is also there, like the Benns they manage to be in two places at once)The other Grandparents - Greenwoods of Bridge House, Haworth - may have recognised Fanny, they are supposed to have built an house for their illegitimate son and his wife. Also there were other Blands in Haworth and near-bye Stanbury in 1851 and I think Susan Bland b. 1786 was still alive. (John b. 1825 was the son of John Greenwood and Susan Bland). Anyway thanks again. Did you get your data from Bob Chapple?
Best wishes
Dave
01 November 05
Dear Al lI have heard from Bob today He has sent me the 1841 census entry that we have all been eagerly awaiting. Census 1841HO.107/12922/2 p12Brown Royd Hill, North Bierley Mary Benn 45Elizabeth Benn20 Stuff weaver Mary Benn15 Stuff weaver Margaret Benn 8 Samuel Benn 7 Joshua Benn 4 Also at Brown Royd Hill, but at another address was a Jonas Benn aged 40, also a stuff weaver. So, father William is either dead or elsewhere. He also identified another family, based in Slackside, father William Benn aged 30 a coalminer, mother Elizabeth aged 30, stuff weaver, children John 9 a coalminer (!!) Rose 6, Squire 2 and Joshua, 65. Same reference as above but page 9.He also identified an entry for Zillah Benn, aged 8, in Northowram with Thomas and Mary Holdsworth aged 70 and James Holdsworth aged 55. This entry raises more questions than it answers though. The other item in the mail was a “family group sheet” that shows the putative family and in there Zillah, as previously recorded in this thread, was born in 1820 in Chatt Hill and married Charles Worsnop in 1841. Therefore she could not have been 8 in 1841. This must mean that there were at least two women called Zillah Benn which rather throws the whole thing up in the air. There is no indication as to where the information has come from – it is the information that we have already seen - 6 children, father William Benn, mother Mary Unknown, and marriage details where appropriate.
I would imagine that a GOONer would perhaps order all certificates in the surname of their interest and then construct relationships that way, would they? I will ask him, but he might not remember. I wonder if he used the IGI entries we saw too? New detail According to the sheet Margaret married Isaac Kellett 19th Feb 1849 in St Peter's Bradford. She was living at 26 Beldon Hill, Horton in 1851 and Nursery Houses, Gildersome in 1881 Elizabeth and James Isherwood were living at 69 Southgate, Horton in 1851 apparently. I had wondered though if she was instead the wife of Edward Dean and living in Spotland, Rochdale in 1851 with brother Samuel Benn. Zillah Worsnop was apparently at 12 Arcadia Street, Manningham in 1861 (I would have turned down Charles rather than be named Zillah Worsnop!) Mary Benn married John Hartley but there are no addresses given so I think that must mean they have not been tracked on the census. Samuel is identified at the following addresses1841 Brown Royd Hill, Wibsey1853 Mechanic, Horton (marriage to Elizabeth Jowett)1855 Iron Works Labourer, Revo Hill Top, North Bierley (birth of a child I assume)1861 Stuff Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley1871, Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley Joshua Benn appears only in the 1841 census entry and we are given no other information about him. What do we make of any of this information?
Very best wishes
Louise
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01 November 05
I don't perceive any issue with there being more than one Zillah Benn and knowing West Yorkshire Benns even more likely, more than two.e.g.1851 HO107 2311 folio 348Slave Row Clayton Yorkshire Hannah Benn 66 Thornton, Yorkshire, Head Widow Washer David Benn 23 Clayton, Yorkshire, Son Power loom weaver Zilla Benn abt 1834 Clayton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter Clayton Rover At £7.50 a time for certificates I might expect a wealthy 'Gooner' who had no other interests such as holidays to purchase all the necessary Benn certificates (a one namer is not locative remember - to be a member of the Goons he must be willingly to research the surname on a worldwide basis) and construct family relationships. FreeBMD which of course is incomplete and only covers England and Wales and only at the most goes up to circa 1910 currently holds 6,480 Benn registrations. So how much he has purchased any certificates...? I would however have expected (depending on how long he had been a one namer) for him to have searched the most relevant parish registers - in this case probably at least Bradford's (don't know how many Anglican churches let alone non-conformist) marriage registers which might have picked up Elizabeth, Margaret and Zillah's marriages but not Mary's? In which case he would have dates and detail. He would be clear where his information came from. I personally do not make family charts based on submitted information to the IGI.
The only birth certificate which would be possible to get is one for Joshua who hangs rather tantalising just as a possibility for a late birth in 1837 (which even so still might not have been registered)and is probably more likely to have occurred in 1836.I thought you had decided your Samuel in Rochdale was the 1841 census not the 1851? Margaret Kellett shows on all the censuses except 1861, 1851-1891. She is also remarkably consistent for a Benn on her age, birth year circa 1832 and place of birth, Shelf twice Wibsey once, until the genes out in 1891 when she gives Denholme. Zillah gives her birthplace as Thorton on the 1851 census circa 1821I can't see any possible Mary Hartleys. The evidence for William being the missing head of household in 1841 I would surmise rests on Margaret's and Samuel's marriages and possibly Elizabeth's baptism, and I would hope the elimination of other family group possibilities? It might also be through the marriages of Elizabeth and Zillah but no definite reference is given for these marriages. From those marriages there should be details of William's occupation and whether there was mention on any that he was deceased to help narrow down the possibilities for his death/burial.
Regards
Valda
02 November 05
I've been looking at David Benns on IGI to try and put some bones into the file I got from Bob - not much in the way of source detail. There are 11 entries for Davids in Yorks. Not many so I had a look at all of them DB 1791 Halifax to Abraham + Grace – mine DB 1820 Shelf to Benjamin + Mary – mine DB 1831 Bradford to Ann Rawnsley DB 1811 Brighouse to George + Alice David Holdsworth Benn 1826 Thornton to John + Martha (is this the 1851 David from Valda's notes above? did his father marry twice?)DB 1804 Bradford to John DB 1804 Bradford to John + Betty (LDS)DB 1811 marriage to Hannah Ashworth – mine The others are repetitions for births or baptisms. Might help for elimination purposes. One other point from Louise's addresses for Samuel - I note that the occupations are mechanic, Iron works labourer, stuff worsted weaver, worsted weaver. I might be sticking my neck out here but I get the feeling that at least the last 2 are referring to a different Samuel!!
Dave
PS just had another thought, should have spotted it earlier. David Holdsworth Benn would have enumerated as David Holdsworth and likewise any other Holdsworth Benn's!!!!
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02 November 05
As Valda says, there could well have been several girls called Zillah BENN in the area. Re the Zillah BENN aged 8 in a HOLDSWORTH household in 1841, and the Zillah BENN b ca 1834, Clayton in a BENN household in 1851, they might well be the same person and could well be the following (extracted) record from the IGI Zillah BENN, b 1 May 1833, Queenshead General Baptist, Clayton by Bradford, parents Samuel BENN and Grace WHITE (there are quite a few BENN records in that church).Getting back to Samuel, and his parents and siblings, many more details about the evidence supporting the propositions are needed. At present it seems to be fairly slim insofar as we know it (and I think that's what Valda is saying). Basically, it seems to be that Samuel's father was a William (from his marriage certificate), that Samuel aged 7 in a Mary's household in the 1841 census is of the right age, and that Elizabeth in the same household in 1841 is of the right age to be the Elizabeth born 1818 to a William BENN and a Mary. How unfortunate that the father of the family with 7yo Samuel in 1841 was not in that census. It would have been very re-assuring had he been there and had he been William, a weaver! I wonder what (if anything) else the various researchers have and whether they could please share it.
For instance, assuming that the current hypothesis is correct (and I strongly suspect that it is!), I would like to see/know (some of these overlap) the full record from the Bradford parish register of the 1816 marriage of William BENN and Mary FOSTER the full record from the church register of Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton By Bradford for Elizabeth's baptism in 1818 whether any information exists to indicate that William had died by 1841 whether any possible unattached William has been found in the 1841 census whether Zillah has been found in the 1841 census. How/why did the researchers slot Zillah into the family? Zillah's 1841 marriage certificate (on FreeBMD as Zilla). Of interest - was her father William, a weaver. Was he listed as deceased. Names of witnesses. Margaret's 1849 marriage certificate - same matters of interest. Elizabeth's 1851 marriage certificate - same matters of interest. death certificate of Mary snr marriage cert of Mary jnr - of interest as above records after the 1841 census of Joshua Apologies if any of the above has already been answered.
JAP
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02 November 05
Having seen your generally relaxed air at having learnt of the two Zillah Benns, I wonder what odds you will give me on there being two Zillah Worsnops? Well according to the 1861 census there are two of those as well, I can feel that familiar sense of despair coming over me again. One born 1820 in Chatt Hill, living with Charles and no children in Manningham The other born in 1827 in Low Moor, Bradford with five children but no husband (Martha, Hannah, Samuel, Robert Edwin) living in Bradford GrrrrrrrrI don’t know the answer just now to any of the questions that JAP has posed. I have thought in some depth about Valda's comments. I will of course write and ask Bob where he got his information from. With regard to my throw away remark about Elizabeth Dean in Spotland, this is not the same reference to a Kirklees census of 1841, this is a 1851 census that I saw on the free service currently being offered on ancestry. comIt is something we have not see before on these pages. It is HO107/2245 / 459/ 5/ 18 Samuel Benn abt 1831 Halifax, Yorkshire, England Brother-in-law Spotland Lancashire Ann Dean abt 1842 Halifax, Yorkshire, England Daughter Spotland Lancashire Edward Dean abt 1817 Bradford, Yorkshire, England Head Spotland Lancashire Elizabeth Dean abt 1820 Halifax, Yorkshire, England Wife Spotland Lancashire Ellen Dean abt 1848 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Daughter Spotland Lancashire George Dean abt 1844 Haslingden, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire Joseph Dean abt 1846 Haslingden, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire Moses Dean abt 1850 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire Robert Dean abt 1851 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Son Spotland Lancashire
It may be a red herring, but I was just asking myself, in that earlier post, how we knew that Elizabeth married Mr Isherwood and not Mr Dean - especially given that we would have found a home for our Samuel in the missing 1851 census. I am a bit worried that the 1841 census says that our Samuel was 7 when we want him to be 9 or 10. I know that older people can be mixed up about their age, but surely a child of 7 is not likely to be confused with a boy 3 years older? Far be it from me to question people with much more wisdom, but there are so many things about the multitudinous Samuel Benns that confuse and complicate me. I don’t know how others have previously arrived at any of these certainties. My own family name has been traced back 500 years, down rutted tracks into farm yards, across fields into small churches, generation after generation living in hamlets where they tidily kept their children's names exclusive, just like we do now. There is no chance in the world that my sister and I would have children with the same names. But this lot - my paternal Grandmother's line, have been difficult in every branch. We are on our 11th page and there have been 1300 viewings of this thread, I am extremely loathe to throw the towel in, but I cannot help wondering if we are beating our collective heads against a brick wall that will never be demolished. Let's hope that Bob can offer some answers about where he got his information from! Sorry to be so despondent after such great work
Best wishes
Louise
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03 November 05
Hi again Louise,1. Two Zillah WORSNOPs I'd be as relaxed about two Zillah WORSNOPs as I am about two Zillah BENNs - obviously I can't speak for Valda but I suspect she would be too! WORSNOP was a far from uncommon surname, Zillah was a far from uncommon forename. Check it out in the IGI - enter just the surname WORSNOP and region British Isles and see how many it produces (including plenty in Yorkshire). Ditto with just the forename Zillah. The marriage of the second Zillah isn't in the IGI or on FreeBDM so we can't find out her surname but what are surely christenings for two of the children are in the IGI - Martha Ann in 1851 in Wibsey, and Hannah in 1854 in Wibsey, parents' names given as Abraham WORSNOP and Zillah.2. Which marriage of an Elizabeth BENN? Well, I guess we'd need to see both marriage certificates (Elizabeth BENN to Edward DEAN, and Elizabeth BENN to James ISHERWOOD) - and hope that only one of them has a father named William. An Elizabeth BENN married Sep qtr 1838 Halifax an Edward DEAN is on the same page. What was the occupation of the Samuel BENN, brother-in-law, in the 1851? Was he unmarried? A couple of points which suggest that Samuel of Spotland was not 'our' Samuel are- a Samuel BENN married in the Dec qtr 1852, Rochdale Rochdale includes Spotland.- the age of the Samuel BENN, brother-in-law was presumably given as 20 in the census on 30 Mar 1851) to produce a birth-date of 1831.
However, the Samuel BENN, residence Horton, who married Elizabeth JOWETT of Horton in Aug 1853 - nearly two and a half years later - was only 20 at the time of his marriage. 3. Census age of Samuel BENN Going back to my BENN aide-memoire on page 8 (I knew I'd find it useful some day!), I find that an age of 7 in the census on 6 Jun 1841 fits happily with Samuel's next known age of 20 at his marriage on 23 Aug 1853 (we haven't yet found him in the 1851).Am I missing something? Why would we have expected him to be 9 or 10 in the 1841??On the assumption that all of the Samuels in the summary are one and the same person (and that my arithmetic stands up - always doubtful)-from his marriage age of 20 in 1853, we'd expect him to be 7 or 8 in 1841.-from his census age of 25 in 1861, we'd expect him to be 4 or 5.-from his census age of 34 in 1871, we'd expect him to be 3 or 4.-from his census age of 40 in 1881, we'd expect him to be 0 or 1.-from his census age of 50 in 1891, we'd expect him to be 0 or 1.-from his death age of 53, also in 1891, we'd expect him to be 2 or 3. I'd be putting most faith on the 1853 marriage age for a comparison with the 1841 census age.4. My questions were essentially the same as asking where Bob (and others) got their information from. The listing I made was of possible sources that I could think of which might have helped to engender confidence in the hypothesis. Same names over and over Louise, you must have been very lucky in your research! All of the people I've researched use the same forenames over and over again both within and between generations.
Cheers,
JAP
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03 November 05
Samuel Benn born Halifax circa 1831 and living in Spotland is still there in 1861 and married to Jane. Still there with Jane in 1891 (1852 marriage has Jane Pilkington as the potential spouse). On the 1851 census there are 15 Sam* Benn(s) showing all in West Yorkshire. Of the Benns within a reasonably age range, none were new to the 'fray'. I also checked for Ben* Benn(s) just in case your Samuel was hiding amongst them and in general Benn(s) of North Bierley and finally Sam*(s) of North Bierley. What I learnt from this excise is thankfully we are not attempting the surname Barraclough. The place is saturated with Barracloughs. There is just a horrific number of them with a sizeable proportion called John. There were about 50 Samuels in North Bierley so basically if yours was enumerated or indexed in another surname I'm not likely to find him. I can afford to be laid back about Zillah Worsnop because Zillah Benn in her own right remains completely unconnected to the family anyway. The 1841 census entry should have been the evidence that placed her with them and she is not there. Even a marriage would only give the laughable evidence of a father called William Benn, possibly a weaver.
So at this point it is a bit of a side show whether she married Charles Worsnop or Abraham Worsnop (as on the 1871 census. Abraham is married but with his family on the 1851 census - no Zillah). Luckily we are not trying to establish your line through Zillah. Whenever anyone says this must be the marriage of ......to......., after all how many people with this seemingly unusual name can there be in this area at this time, I always work on the principle of at the very least two. Seemingly unusual names are often locative. More unusual first names can be locative and usually set in a period. The rise in popularity of Bibilical names like Zillah in early C19th West Yorkshire would undoubtedly be connected with the rise of non-conformism. Unless you are a thorough one namer you often can't see the 'whole picture' (dangerous to assume even then that you can) and can make assumptions with connections, though the national indexing of the censuses 1851-1901 begins to make it possible to do what a one namer should be doing as standard, which is proving each line through evidence and elimination. Most family historians once beyond family memories, 'prove' their lines with a 'heady mixture' of evidence and assumption. They also do not thoroughly question the veracity of their evidence. This is why I always check what I am told at source for myself. The speed of the Internet allows for us to run ahead of ourselves. We are still waiting for Samuel's marriage certificate. As far as I know the only evidence of Samuel being a mechanic comes from the marriage? On all other censuses (don't remember about his legitimate children's birth certificates - none of which we've actually seen) he is a weaver 1861-1891. I don't know where Dave's iron work labourer comes from? As I've yet to 'see' the marriage certificate, Samuel's age, occupation, father's name, occupation and whether deceased or not if given, I can remain relaxed about going off on tangents. At this point there is nothing which actually fixes the Samuel who married Elizabeth Jowett in 1853 to the 1841 census (other than elimination on later censuses, which is dangerous because I could say where's the proof the 1841 Samuel didn't die).
Because there is no William on that census, we are relying on Samuel's age on marriage and the possibility he was under age and therefore either through the banns or less likely by licence there is permission given for the marriage from his 'legal guardian'. If the marriage only gives us age and father's name we still would have to prove the connection to the disappointing 1841 census which lacks a William, if that's what Samuel's father's name was on his marriage. The difficulty would be proving that 1841 census family had a William in the first place and that it was your William. So one step at a time.
Regards
Valda
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03 November 05
Hi Valda (cc Louise),Firstly As I asked (and Valda re-affirms, I think) - how did the researchers slot Zillah who m Charles WORSNOP into the family! Secondly Two ladies called Zillah - just a confusion I think. I wasn't even beginning to suggest that 8yo Zillah BENN in 1841 who probably married Abraham WORSNOP (perhaps ca 1851) had anything at all to do with 'our' Samuel's family (which is said to have included a Zillah BENN who is said to have married Charles WORSNOP in 1841!) ... These are girls from different age groups. Surely 'our' Zillah (married to Charles WORSNOP) was not the wife of Abraham WORSNOP and mother of his children??We still have to find Zillah BENN or WORSNOP in 1841 (remembering that people of those names with husband probably Charles WORSNOP married in 1841). And also remembering that WORSNOP and BENN were common names.Thirdly Samuel of Spotland seems to be disposed of by Valda's census information added to the date of his marriage in the area. Fourthly as Valda says (as I read it) don't begin to worry about the same names recurring in the same area. It's not unusual - it's the norm! Which is certainly what I have found.
Cheers,
JAPPS
I am glad that my one-name studies (NOT registered with GOONS) are both rare and usually locative! Unfortunately there's not much interest in them! Though very recently, by pure chance, I came across a descendant - great fun.
03 November 05
Thanks for your messages, which have made me feel a bit better. Valda, I have not ordered the marriage certificate, having had a go at ordering one in 1854 which was the wrong one and getting half my money back, because Brenda had it and had said what it said. I show it below. I can order my own copy but had not thought there was any more to learn, please advise on that.23rd August 1853 at The Parish Church in the Parish of Bradford - I understand that this is St.Peter CE Church, Bradford, Yorks , and is now the Cathedral. Samuel BENN, 20, Bachelor, Mechanic, residence Horton, Father William BENN,a weaver Elizabeth JOWETT, 20, Spinster, Weaver, residence Horton, Father George JOWETT, a comber Married after Banns by W F Black curate .witnesses William Holmes and John MitchellI am happy to see my Spotland worry has been taken care of. I am happy too that Zillah Worsnop/Benn is not a problem. I thought Samuel should have been a bit older in the 1841 census because I was working on the premise that he was baptised in 1831 - this from Bob's family group which might or might not be extracted from the IGI. But of course, there is no proof that the family is "our" family and won’t be until we learn what evidence was used to substantiate the information. ("Our"s because I like to think that you all now have Samuel in your family tree, at least in spirit)JAP - I agree with you that I should be ordering a pile of certificates, I will have to find the references, presumably in FreeBMD. I am assuming I should be looking for some more birth certificates for children of Samuel/Elizabeth, those born in the 1850s this time, rather than the later ones, to see what job he had and where they were living. Also the marriage certificates of some of Samuel's putative siblings, Elizabeth, Mary, Margaret etc.
Best wishes to all and thanks again
Louise
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03 November 05
Dear Louise, I certainly love Samuel - even if he did apparently leave lots of kids behind! Well, who knows - perhaps it was all for a good reason and perhaps he kept sending money back home either voluntarily or by decree and perhaps this was why (unemployed and perhaps in poor health) he couldn't also support little John Wilson/William (and who would deny Samuel and Eliza a bit of comfort together - if, let's hope, such it was).And still we don't know for certain that Samuel in 1881 is the Samuel of earlier years o Though it is seemingly increasingly likely ...No Louise, I wasn't remotely suggesting that YOU order lots or certificates (and we've had the details of the Samuel BENN-Elizabeth JOWETT marriage already). If I were you, I'd actually like to see the parish registers first. But who knows. The important thing I want to know is what certificates the other researchers have. Don't even think of wasting your money when others might already have the certificates!!Take lots of care,
JAP
03 November 05
Hi, Valda the Iron works labourer came from a reply by Louise 1st Nov. Samuel is identified at the following addresses1841 Brown Royd Hill, Wibsey1853 Mechanic, Horton (marriage to Elizabeth Jowett)1855 Iron Works Labourer, Revo Hill Top, North Bierley (birth of a child I assume)1861 Stuff Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley1871, Worsted weaver, Reevy Hall, North Bierley Did the info come from Bob Chapple? No assumptions - where did he get it from? Is the child b. 1855 registered on BMD? (yorkshirebmd.org.uk have Bradford, N.Bierley for that year)Can the child be followed through on 1861 and 1871 census returns? and further? If these questions can be answered then a b. cert for the child will establish the continuity of Samuel's family. I agree with JAP that a pool of proven resources would be most useful. The only Benn cert. I have is the marriage of Mary Hannah to Joseph Greenwood Bland in 1876. I have various copies of census returns but they pertain to my own Benns and likewise headstone photos.
Very best regards
Dave
03 November 05
I'd forgotten we had the details of the marriage - too many messages and life goes on in between. I would check whether the marriage banns survive for St. Peter Bradford in 1853. They both married under age so it should be with somebody's permission. It isn't always shown, but its worth a try. This might also work for some of the other potential siblings' marriages - Margaret was only 16 or 17 in 1849 and Zillah probably about 20 in 1841 (Sept quarter - on the 1851 census she has a son called Sharp and a daughter called Amanda) Elizabeth Isherwood with husband James is in Horton on the 1851 census (James 24 years in the 96th Regiment). Two doors away is William Jowett a mechanic. Rather than order certificates for anything doing a search of St. Peter's (baptisms?), marriages(and burials?) would be the cheapest and quickest way to find members of the family - at least after 1837 (absolutely nothing at St Peter's up to 1837 on the national burial index, so they may only marry there - day out in Bradford).Employing a local researcher to do it for you would be cheaper than ordering certificates , but you would have to establish a strict criteria of which possible Benn extracts you might be interested between which period, otherwise it could be time consuming. The only birth certificate I would be interested in would be Joshua's. But I think it unlikely it exists.
Regards
Valda
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04 November 05
Hi again Louise, Genuki gives information about location of the parish records at Click Here
(http//www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/CBW/WRY/Bradford.html)
It states (in part) A parish and market town, in Morley division of Agbrigg and Morley, Liberty of Pontefract 6 miles from Bingley, 8 from Halifax, 10 from Leeds, Keighley and Otley, 14 from Huddersfield, 15 from Wakefield, 34 from York, 196 from London. Population 13,064. The Church is a vicarage, dedicated to St. Peter, in the deanery of Pontefract. Deposited Registers (WYAS, Bradford, microfiche copy only) Baptisms Registers with incumbent (Microfiche 1599-1951) Marriages Registers with incumbent (Microfiche 1599-1983) Burials Registers with incumbent (Microfiche 1599-1919)"WYAS stands for West Yorkshire Archive Service which is at
http//www.archives.wyjs.org.uk/
They have a research service. I was going to suggest that a cheaper option would be to order the relevant film in to your nearest LDS Family History Centre. However, looking at the Library Catalogue on FamilySearch it seems that they only have Bishops Transcripts (which I've found can sometimes have fewer details that the actual Parish Register) and only to 1851 i.e. this would not cover Samuel's marriage which was in 1853.But I guess the first thing is to wait for One-Namer Bob Chapple's advice on what source material he has.
JAP
04 November 05
Hello, I am in a very much better mood today I have just heard from Bob Chapple who is going to send me all sorts of material, copies of census returns, transcripts of parish records, details of marriage certificates etc to help in our quest. I will of course let you have this information the very moment it arrives
With very best wishes
Louise
05 November 05
Excellent A thorough one namer who has been researching for a few years should hold information like this as standard. It saves a lot of time and effort. I would be interested to see if he has checked the marriage banns though. I would only have checked that source if I needed to and if he has eliminated all the other possible family groups in the way we have tried to do with the Samuels he may have acquired sufficient evidence to place all the siblings and their respective parents together, though without a baptism I would have thought Zillah was a bit tricky. At least Samuel is with the family in 1841.
Regards
Valda
09 November 05
Hi, Try this site to search Farnley
http//www.calverley.info/
this list of Northowram Benns might or might not be of use Northowram Census 1851 RG107/2302F/
Dave
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09 November 05
Dave That's good stuff thanks very much! I have been away for a few days but have now returned home and was delighted to receive my package from Bob. He has sent me first of all the three census returns we have already gathered together - the 1861, 1871 and 1881 census. He has sent me a copy of the birth certificate of Zillah Benn, daughter of Samuel Benn and Elizabeth nee Jowett. He has also sent me transcripts of the marriages in Bradford St Peters - which give lots of detail thankfully. From these various sources I can now tell you the following Samuel and Elizabeth had nine children Ruth born circa 1855 who married Adam Sugden 13/7/1873 by banns, when she was 17, she was living in Horton, father Samuel Benn, Weaver Margaret born circa 1857/1858 who married James Stephenson 2/12/1877 when she was 20 by banns, she was living at 77 Kingswood Street, Horton father Samuel Benn, weaver. Ann born circa 1859/1860 who married Leonard Ormondroyd 11/11/1876 when she was 17, by banns, they were both living at Pot House Wibsey, father Samuel Benn, worsted weaver. Zillah born 13/12/1861 at Revy Hall, North Bierley, father Samuel Benn, stuff factory weaver, his mark, mother Elizabeth nee Jowett. She married Robert Gornall (spelling?) 10/4/1881 aged 19, living at 77 Kingswood Street, Horton, father Samuel Benn Weaving Overlooker. William Benn born c 1864 who married Margaret Esgate, 23/12/1883, aged 20, mule spinner, father Samuel Benn, Weaver's overlooker. Living 10 Whatmough Street, Thornton. Witnesses James Stephenson (who I believe was his brother in law) and Albert Ackroyd. Mary Benn born c 1866 (slightly less sure as she changes with the census) married to Harry Cordingley 23/11/1884 aged 19. Father Samuel Benn, Weaver's overlooker, she was living at 10 Whatmough Street, Horton. Martha Benn born c 1869 who married Hamlet Greenwood (wow!) on 3/8/1891 aged 22, father Samuel Benn, weaver's overlooker, she was living at 10 Marlborough Street (did they move from Whatmough Street or did the road change its name?). Joshua Benn born c 1870 who married Lavinia Muscroft on 19/10/1889, aged 19, living at 10 Marlborough Street, father Samuel Benn, Weaver's overlooker. Witnesses Martha Benn (sister above I assume) and Luke Muscroft.
Ellen Benn born 1873 who married Thomas Wood, I don’t remember when but we have recorded it elsewhere on this thread. From the census returns we have already seen we know that Elizabeth and her children lived as follows1861 Revy Hall, North Bierley1871 Reevy Hall, Wibsey1881 77 Kingswood Street1891 10 Marlborough Street (where Ellen and husband Thomas have moved in with Elizabeth and she has been supplanted as the head of the household)In 1883 and 1884 they were at 10 Whatmough Street which is either a different address or a renamed street. The only child not where s/he was supposed to be, now that we know their ages and marriages etc was Ruth in 1871 when we know she was staying with grandparents George and Ruth Jowett (her namesake).I am confident that in 1881 this Samuel was with a young woman the same age as his eldest child, and was the father of John William Benn, described according to the pattern above, as a weaving overlooker - either on the birth registration or the census, cannot remember which but they were taken only a week apart. I will post this and then come on to the evidence for the next generation back.
Regards
Louise
NB Most couples shared the same communal witnesses, presumably church wardens or similar, where they were family I have named them, otherwise not.
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09 November 05
Samuel Benn aged 20, a mechanic, from Horton, father William Benn a weaver, married Elizabeth Jowett aged 20, a weaver, from Horton, father George Benn, a comber, witnesses common. date 23/8/1853 by banns Elizabeth Benn, aged 33, from Horton, father William Benn, a weaver, married James Isherwood, 43, a comber, from Horton, father John Isherwood a weaver, witnesses common. date 7.1.1851 by banns (actually every single marriage I have detailed was by banns, in this generation and the next, although I have not always stated it.)John Benn, aged 21, a miner from Bierley ,father William Benn a miner(A different family? Bob thinks so, he is probably right) married Mary Seed, 20, a weaver, father William Seed, a labourerer, 19/5/1851 witnesses common. So Elizabeth and Samuel look like siblings but there are none of the others in the parish records 1851 - 1892 - other siblings could have been earlier? He has sent details of other Benns in the register but they don’t concern us so I have not recorded them. So where are we now and where do we want to go next?
Best wishes
Louise
09 November 05
Which marriage of an Elizabeth BENN? Well, I guess we'd need to see both marriage certificates (Elizabeth BENN to Edward DEAN, and Elizabeth BENN to James ISHERWOOD) - and hope that only one of them has a father named William. An Elizabeth BENN married Sep qtr 1838 Halifax an Edward DEAN is on the same page
Elizabeth Benn who married Edward Dean, I can now tell you, had a father named Joshua, sorry for the red herring - she married at St Peters and Bob had picked it up.
Louise
09 November 05
Samuel is identified at the following addresses1855 Iron Works Labourer, Revo Hill Top, North Bierley (birth of a child I assume)Did the info come from Bob Chapple? No assumptions - where did he get it from? Is the child b. 1855 registered on BMD? (yorkshirebmd.org.uk have Bradford, N.Bierley for that year)Can the child be followed through on 1861 and 1871 census returns? and further? Dave, given what I have now recorded above, I think the iron works labourer reference must have come from the birth certificate of Ruth Benn - which I have not seen but could now order if we thought it important. Perhaps Brenda has it, I think it is she whose husband is descended from Ruth.
Best wishes
Louise
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10 November 05
Hello again Louise, That is great information which Bob has provided! It certainly fleshes out details about the family of Samuel BENN and Elizabeth JOWETT. However, while the hypothesis that a) Mary in the 1841 census was the wife/widow of a William b) Samuel aged 7 in the 1841 census is the same as the Samuel who m Elizabeth JOWETT c) Samuel who was with Eliza VIPOND in 1881 is the same as the Samuel who m Elizabeth JOWETT (and had fathered nine children with her)is probably correct, we still don't seem to have - unless I have missed something - details which would further support that hypothesis. Sorry to harp on about this!
Getting back to Samuel, and his parents and siblings, many more details about the evidence supporting the propositions are needed. At present it seems to be fairly slim insofar as we know it (and I think that's what Valda is saying). Basically, it seems to be that Samuel's father was a William (from his marriage certificate), that Samuel aged 7 in a Mary's household in the 1841 census is of the right age, and that Elizabeth in the same household in 1841 is of the right age to be the Elizabeth born 1818 to a William BENN and a Mary.
How unfortunate that the father of the family with 7yo Samuel in 1841 was not in that census. It would have been very re-assuring had he been there and had he been William, a weaver! I wonder what (if anything) else the various researchers have and whether they could please share it. For instance, assuming that the current hypothesis is correct (and I strongly suspect that it is!), I would like to see/know (some of these overlap) the full record from the Bradford parish register of the 1816 marriage of William BENN and Mary FOSTER the full record from the church register of Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton By Bradford for Elizabeth's baptism in 1818 whether any information exists to indicate that William had died by 1841*whether any possible unattached William has been found in the 1841 census*whether Zillah has been found in the 1841 census. How/why did the researchers slot Zillah into the family?*Zillah's 1841 marriage certificate (on FreeBMD as Zilla). Of interest - was her father William, a weaver. Was he listed as deceased. Names of witnesses.*Margaret's 1849 marriage certificate - same matters of interest.*Elizabeth's 1851 marriage certificate - same matters of interest.*death certificate of Mary snr*marriage cert of Mary jnr - of interest as above*records after the 1841 census of Joshua And, of course, we still don't have*Samuel in the 1851 census.
I can't recall whether we have Mary snr in the 1851 or later? As I read the most recent correspondence, the only additional piece of information we now have is the parish register entry for Elizabeth BENN who married James ISHERWOOD in 1851. It a) indicates that the father of this Elizabeth was named William and was a weaver but not whether he was deceased b) that this Elizabeth was of an appropriate age (33) to be the Elizabeth, daughter of a William and a Mary, bap in 1818.But this doesn't even prove that this Elizabeth is the Elizabeth in the 1841 census with Mary etc (and her age in 1841 was a bit low - 20) and the witnesses don't help. The hypothesis that Samuel BENN in 1841 = Samuel BENN who married Elizabeth JOWETT and had 9 children = Samuel BENN who was with Eliza VIPOND in 1881, is very attractive but it would be good to find some proof to tie everything together.
JAP
10 November 05
Bob has given you a lot of information it would have been very costly to amass yourself. It is always worth checking to see what one namers actually hold and they are generous in sharing the information they have. However as JAP says other than Elizabeth's marriage we are no further forward on the earlier stuff. I concur with JAP, + no burials info at all, no banns (and other than Samuel we may not get them if the marriages were not at St. Peters). It is worth checking whether Bob has any of this earlier information.
Regards
Valda
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10 November 05
I'm going back to what I said earlier - a b. cert for the child b. 1855 (Ruth ?) gives continuity for as long as she is in the household, her parents and siblings can then be used as in census returns to come further forward. If Ruth Benn was with Jowett grandparents then Jowett has to be her mother's maiden name - unless there was an adoption. Ruth was the first born so that takes us back furthest. We now have the following addresses hypothetically for the same family 1841 Brownroyd - lower (Bradford) end of Wibsey near Southfield Lane, Horton1853 Horton (m to Jowett)1855 Revo Hill Top - I believe this to be Reevy Hill opposite end of Wibsey to Brownroyd 1861 Re(e)vy Hall - same as Reevy Hill 1871 Revy Hall 1873 Horton (where in Horton?) 1876 Pot House - off Reevy Road near Harbour1877 Kingswood Street - Horton 1881 x2 Kingswood Street - Horton 1883 W(h)atmough Street - Horton (not Thornton) 2 streets away from Kingswood Street1884 Watmough Street1889 Marlborough (Street? I have a Marlborough Road, Manningham) 1891 Marlborough Street. Combining this with the marriages we should then be back from 1891 to 1853 with proof. What do you think JAP?
Regards
Dave
10 November 05
I think we are all in agreement, this tidies up the second generation but does nothing for the earlier one. There is no proof that the 1841 census entry is our Samuel, the only thing we know about our Samuel is the moveable feast of his year of birth, his place of birth (Shelf) which is another moveable feast and the name and profession of his father at the time of Samuel's marriage. As the 1841 census does not involve any of this material, although could be right on age, we cannot know it is him. I will have to go back to Bob and ask him what he has extracted from the Bradford Parish Registers before 1851 which is when his entries sent to me begin. I find it hard to believe that this is so difficult, it is practically in living memory yet we are continually stumped. I know there is no proof that the Samuel who married Elizabeth is my Samuel, but I have decided to accept that he is, and so he shall be henceforth - you have to take the odd executive decision in this game! Dave, I will email Brenda and ask her if she has Ruth's birth certificate and could share the content with us
Best wishes to all
Louise
11 November 05
Brenda has kindly supplied me with the information from Ruth's birth certificate. There is no doubt that this is the same family - obviously Samuel had a few changes of career. 1855 Birth in the district of North Bierley in the County of York Entry No 283Where and when born 26th September 1855 Revo Hill Top. Name Ruth Sex Girl Name and Surname of Father Samuel BENN Name, surname and maiden name of mother Elizabeth BENN formerly JOWETT Occupation of father Labourer at Iron Works Signature, description and residence of informant X The mark of Samuel Benn, Father, Revo Hill Top, North Bierley When registered 31st October 1855
Regards
Louise
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11 November 05
Thank you Louise and Brenda! Yet another piece of the jigsaw falls into place. I hope that all of you descendants are enjoying this puzzle as much as those of us who are looking on - and interfering! - from the sidelines, are!
Best regards,
JAP
16 November 05
Hello everyone I have heard back from The Widdop one-name study woman who says she has blown up her PC and has not yet put all her paper records back on to a new one so cannot help just at the moment2. Bob the Benn one-name study man who says he linked the St Peters Bradford marriages and censuses of 1861 through to 1901 of Samuel Benn's family to the 1841 census in Brown Royd Hill (I think that is what it was called, from memory) that we have seen here before, by the incidence of names and dates etc. Presumably he is as sorry as we were that father William was not on the census himself. That being the case, he assumes children, including our Samuel, with a father named William Benn weaver and a mother named Mary. I think that is as far as he has gone with this line.
So we are on our own and able to decide whether we are prepared to accept the 1841 census for ourselves. I do hope you won’t all bail out on me now! I have also heard from the National Archives concerning John William Wilson/Benn enclosing lots and lots of his army records. You may remember I went to London and saw the records but did not have time to print them before my train was due. I can confirm that he joined 18/1/1899 initially as a militia man when he said he was 19 years and no months. By my reckoning he was actually 17 years and 11 months in reality. Perhaps he did not know how old he was, given that he joined as John WILSON - no middle name. He said he was born in the parish of Idle, Bradford. I am unclear about where this joining happened as the records I have seen actually start on 31st December 1901.On this date he moved from the militia to the regular army in the shape of the Northumberland Fusiliers. His number was 8360. On one paper he joined in Hull, in another he was physically examined in Newcastle - on the same date, 3rd January 1902 few days later. On 6th Jan 1902 he was transferred to the regular forces in Scarborough where he married Daisy Kate Hilton the following year. On the 10th Feb 1910 he transferred to the 1st batallion of the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in Aldershot. Within days he was in the 2nd batallion, or they made a mistake with their original paperwork. His number was 9656.In 1913 he signed up for a total 21 year service, but in March 1914 he asked to be let go after doing 12 years and 73 days. I don’t know when the First World War began so do not know if this was significant. He and his family were by now living in Singapore. He then joined the Singapore volunteer force, but that might have been later, after the war was over. They were still there in 1922 then they moved back to England.
The 1908 papers show a signature of John Wilson but these papers and earlier ones were subsequently altered to read "alias John Wilson Benn." Later papers are signed by John Wilson Benn, so he must have decided to take the name around then. Does that coincide with the death of Mrs Wilson, whoever she was? His discharge papers in March 1914 describe him as aged 33 years and x months where x is a figure that looks a bit like a capital Y. Presumably either 4 or 7 although if he was born in February 1881 he should have been 33 years and 1 month. This figure does not appear elsewhere in the document so I cannot be sure what it is. His trade in all these papers is given as a TURNER which ought to be helpful. I haven't bored you with all his postings because you don’t need to know, but they do match up with the births of my great aunts and uncles. I just cannot find it at the moment but on one document there was a reference to John William Benn. I hope you will be pleased to hear that he was variously described as of very good military character good, hardworking and reliable exemplary service jolly good! He was 5'7", size 7 shoe with fair hair and blue eyes. I do have a photo of him somewhere taken in the 1930s that I might post up here sometime if I can work out how to do it! I hope I have extracted out any clues that we might need.
Best wishes
Louise
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16 November 05
Just as a matter of interest did you also obtain his militia papers or just his regular army papers?
http//www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=26&j=1
The militia papers might give next of kin and an address when John enrolled in 1899, though I am unclear which militia he was actually in.
In the end the only connection to Scarborough from John's military records seems to be because the army sent him there??
My original comments about earlier useful Benn records still stand and I still don't quite see how by incidences of names and dates Zillah gets a presumed connection to the family...... though I can see why the others might.
Regards
Valda
17 November 05
Hello Louise and Valda, Good points Valda - especially that one would expect a record of next-of-kin. The fact that the BENN one-namer Bob hasn't consulted the parish records and, apparently, doesn't have all of the relevant certificates (two things I've been harping on painfully for the last couple of pages) means that both those possibilities remain open as a possible source of further information. Certainly trawling through parish records (CofE and non-conformist) might reveal something. And did we ever discover whether Poor Law records have survived. I think we also wondered about Wills.
Pity about the computer failure of the WIDDOP one-namer...Louise, one of the best things to come out of the Nat Arch papers seems to be that you have one and the same person identified as John WILSON, John William WILSON and John Wilson BENN. Which sends me back to thinking again about Robert R (presumably Rawnsley) and Ellen/Nellie WILSON of Manningham who didn't have a son John with them in the 1881 census but the widowed Nellie had a 10yo son John William WILSON in 1891. Which would fit the family folklore about John Wilson BENN having been brought up by a WILSON family, and having come from Manningham. I was also thinking again about the enigmatic HILTON and E WILSON witnesses at the wedding of Eliza LISTER/VIPOND to LONG. Incidentally, remember Tiras, 15yo son of Robert and Ellen/Nellie in 1881? He is surely the Tiras, transcribed as Siras, aged 3 with his grandparents Joseph WILSON and Jane (presumably RAWNSLEY - a Joseph WILSON and a Jane RAWNSLEY married in 1836) in the 1871. But where is he in 1891 ... Especially as in the IGI there's the baptism of a Fred Rawnsley WILSON in 1889, and of a little Tiras WILSON in 1891 (both in Manningham, parents Tiras and Cora), and the birth of little Tiras in Bradford is in FreeBMD.
Just one other thing - I wonder whether old newspapers might have anything? The marriage of John Wilson BENN? The death of Samuel BENN?
Cheers,
Judy
18 November 05
The library at Bradford have local newspapers on micro fiche Bradford Argus, Telegraph and Argus, Yorkshire Post, Shipley whatever etc. Personally I haven't found many of my pre 1900 BMD's recorded but you could get lucky. One thing that is very useful is the inclusion of a photo (where available) of all the local servicemen killed in WW1. So If you have a death and a date get on down there. The FHS also have details of servicemen on a card index file so even if you don't know the date it can easily be found. Digressing a little I have recently found the grave of some of my Lightowler ancestors in Halifax and my Great Grandfather Henry died on Armistice day 1918. There is a question there because his name is not on the Debt of Honour site, however, on the headstone there is the inscription 'Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends'. He was supposed to be a councillor at the time. That has to be the next death cert. I send for, If I can find the reference.
Regards for now
Dave
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28 November 05
Hello All I had stalled, but have got back on the trail today. I have had a look on the national archive site and it seems the records I want to check for John William Wilson's militia records are WO96, described as War Office Militia Attestation Papers - 1806-1915 These records are attestation forms from the War Office which were filled in at recruitment and, in most cases, annotated to the date of discharge to form a record of service. They include the date and place of birth. Re Samuel Benn A couple of weeks ago, I stopped off the M62 and went to the area in Bradford where Reevy Hall used to be, following Dave's directions. It is high up on the hill tops, still quite rural, just one road really with houses on. I did find a small cluster of old houses, otherwise they are all 20th century. I should think it was quite an isolated place back in the 1850s.I then went from there about a mile or so to 77 Kingswood Street. This road is still as it was, three storey back to back houses - numbers 61 and 65 on the front, 63 and 67 round the back, through a passage. Unfortunately the last few houses that would have included number 77 had been knocked down and new houses built there, probably in the last few years. Grrrr. But it was good to be there and to think that Margaret, Ruth, Ann etc would have lived there and walked out on the same street. I imagined them leaving to go off and get married from there. It too is high up in the hills but much more developed. I should think Elizabeth wanted to leave the remote Reevy Hall once Samuel had left her, to go somewhere a bit more civilised.
I have two options now, I can go over to Bradford sometime, to the reference library, which will not be until the new year as I have no leave left. Or I can write to the BodKin - the family history magazine of the Bradford FHS that I belong to, and see if any other reader can help. Or of course I can do both. I will definitely find out about the poor law in Bradford. Re Tiras WilsonValda wrote this on 22nd September WILSON, Tiras 1888 June Marriages Bradford Walker, Cora 1888 June Marriages Bradford or BENTHAM, Maud Marian 1888 June Marriages Bradford On FreeBMD these are the only Tiras events for Bradford - all Wilsons Wilson, Tiras 1857 June Deaths Bradford WILSON, Tiras 1888 June Marriages Bradford Wilson, Tiras 1891 September Births Bradford You would think finding Tiras, as a Wilson or anything else would be a piece of cake on the 1891 or 1901 censuses but it isn't. He could of course just been missed off the 1871 census - I can't find a Tiras on that either. His age could be wrong on the 1881 census (its actually given as 13 not 15) but can't be out to far as he is down as employed by father. No problem finding Robert on the 1861 census in Wapping Road Bradford - wirer, with widowed mother Jane (maybe husband was Tiras?) and sister Harriet. Can't of course find Ellen/Nelly/Nellie or even Helen born Kirkheaton/Yeadon or somewhere else because I can't find a marriage for her, so I don't know who she is. It also makes finding her on the 1901 census, presuming she hasn't remarried or died as Nelly/Nellie/Ellen etc more tricky. However I can't see her under any surname variation and that's where I stopped previously. However I've made a new stab at Tiras and found him and wife Cora on the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Connecticut U.S. with an emigration date of circa 1890/1, with son Fred R. born England not quite sure of age. I also found what looks to be them on the 1900 census, son Frederick aged 11. Which deadends Tiras for Scarborough and opens up the possibility (I can't find any emigration records for the family) that he took Nellie and John with him to America.
On the plus side Tiras remains a possibility as an adopted child. I like the idea of Nellie moving to Scarborough to a rest home, or whatever it is, to be near her John. The head on the census I note was a Lady Superintendent of Home. Incidentally Daisy Kate Hilton was working in a sanitorium when she married JWB. It was a spa town and lots of people went there for their health. Maybe Nellie was in a similar sort of place? Came to take the waters? I will try to find out where I can look at Scarborough newspapers - I can see some annual leave coming up in the new year
Best wishes
Louise
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29 November 05
Tiras is with his grandparents on the 1871 censusRG10 4459 folio 8081 Fulbest? Street Bradford Yorkshire Joseph Wilson 55 Bramley, Yorkshire, Head Married MasonJane Wilson 55 Idle, Yorkshire, Wife Married Amos Wilson 31 Idle, Yorkshire, Son Married Labourer Mary Wilson 21 Bolton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted weaver Tiras Wilson 3 Bradford, Yorkshire, Grandson Janes isn't widowed on the 1861 census - she gives her status as married - no idea where husband Joseph was. (In 1851 the family were at Providence Street Bradford).There is no reason to suspect Tiras was adopted. I suppose if you wanted Ellen's maiden name the easiest but more expensive way is to check 1837online for Tiras' birth and order the certificate. I checked the first three Militia Attestation papers I hold for the same period - late C19th. Two didn't give next of kin, one did. All gave addresses.
Regards
Valda
29 November 05
Hi Louise, It must have been great actually seeing all those places! Re Tiras all Census transcriptions are Crown Copyright) We did subsequently (17 Nov 2005) find Tiras or Siras (could be a 'T' or an 'S' - transcribed as Siras) WILSON in 1871 - with his grandparents Joseph and Jane in Bradford grandson, right age (3), and right birthplace (Bradford).However, Joseph & Jane's son Amos, 31, and wife Mary were also in the household so was Tiras their son, or was he the son of Robert R and Nelly? There is the death of an Amos WILSON, age 36, in Bradford in 1876 on FreeBMD also deaths of some Mary WILSONs of a possible age ...1836 Joseph WILSON m Jane RAWNSLEY, 7 Mar 1836, Bradford 1851 HO107/2307 Providence Street, Bradford WILSON Joseph, Head, 34, Stone Mason, b Bradford Do Jane, Wife, 34, b Idle Do Harriet, 17, Power Loom Weaver Worsted, b Idle Do Amos, 13, Working in ?, b IdleDo James, 11, Grocer Boy, b IdleDo Robert R, 8, Scholar, b Idle ILES John, Unm, 21, Wool Comber, b Oxfordshire ?1861 RG9/3320WILSON Jane, Head, Mar, 44, b Idle Do Harriet, Daur, Unm, 27, Worsted Weaver, b Idle Do Robert, Son, Unm, 18, Wirer, b Idle DAWSON William, Boarder, Unm, 18, Apprentice to appraiser, b Idle Where was Joseph? And Amos? And also James (if he survived)?1871 RG10/445981 Filbert St, Bradford WILSON Joseph, Head, 55, Mason, b Bramley Do Jane, Wife, 55, b Idle Do Amos, Son, 31, Laborer, b Idle Do Mary, Wife, 21, Worsted Weaver, b Bolton Do Tiras or Siras, Grandson, 3, b Bradford 1871 RG10/4460 Lincoln's Arms, 52 North Wing WILSON Robert R, Head, 29, Beerseller and Lamplighter, b Idle Do Ellen, Mar, 29, b Yeadon INMAN John, Boarder, Unm, 35, Labr, b Bradford? TURPIN James, Boarder, Unm, 21, Wherry Man, b ?HeatonI have puzzled over Ellen's birthplace and that of Boarder James - both seem to start with exactly the same letter which I see as a 'Y' but then Boarder James's one goes on with a further part which turns it into an 'H'1881 RG11/4464105 Church St, Manningham WILSON Robt. R WILSON, Head, 38, b Idle, Sewing Machine Repairer Do Nelly, Wife, 38, b Kirkheaton, Silk Weaver Do Tiras, Son, 13, b Bradford, employed by father Do Jane, Mother, 65, b Idle
Here's an Ellis Island record SS Campania sailed from Liverpool, Oct 1 1898, arrived New York Oct 7 1898.Cora WILSON, 30, Married, Housewife, American Citizen, b Bradford, in the US in 1898 in Connecticut, Going Home Fred WILSON, 10, American Citizen, b Bradford, Going Home Syrus WILSON, 7, American Citizen, b Bradford, Going Home I can't see their initial arrival but that might be because they arrived just before the records started i.e. between the baptism of Tiras (or whatever his name was!) in Jul 1891 in Manningham and 1892 when the Ellis Is records began. But where are they in the 1891 census!
JAP
Fred might be 4yo Fred WILSON, b Bradford, in 1891 in Bowling, Nephew of Harry FIELDHOUSE, Editor of the Bradford Mercury, and his Wife Mary (both aged 25). There's a marriage on FreeBMD in Dec 1887 in Huddersfield of a Harry FIELDHOUSE on the same page there's a Mary WILSON.
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29 November 05
1861 census RG9 3048 folio 28Rake Blatchinworth with Calderbrook Lancashire Joseph Wilson 44 Bromby, Yorkshire, Lodger Married Stone mason James Wilson 23 Bradford, Yorkshire, Lodger Stone mason no Amos but most likely marriage for him Amos Wilson December 1867Mary Ann Shepherd Volume 9b page 72The other Tiras Wilson who dies in 1857 is I think in Bramley in 1851 the son of James Wilson stone mason aged 42. Definitely this time written by the census enumerator as Siras. FreeBMD's marriage coverage
graphshttp//freebmd.rootsweb.com/progressM.shtml
give you a clear indication where Robert's marriage must be in the 1860s if he married 'Ellen' and used his distinctive middle name.
Regards
Valda
29 November 05
Hi all, Valda, good find of the likely Joseph and John - but Amos, as you say, still AWOL. Some of the following matters look quite peripheral but one never knows ...If they were my people, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be spending money on certificates but there are things that it would be nice to know! For instance1. the birth cert of Tiras WILSON b ca 1868 Bradford might be of interest. If he actually wasn't the son of Robert Rawnsley WILSON and Ellen/Nelly, perhaps they didn't ever have any children - just two 'adopted' sons, Tiras and John (we did find another John WILSON b & d before 1861 but we have no idea who his parents were as far as I can remember).2. the marriage cert of Robert Rawnsley WILSON and Ellen/Nelly (assuming they weren't the parents of Tiras - if they were, the maiden name of Ellen/Nelly would already have been revealed by 1 above) migh tbe of interest depending on her maiden surname! It is maddening that it costs so much to find out things which probably aren't worth finding out! As for not being able to find Tiras and Cora in 1891 (and little Fred unless he is the 4yo nephew which seems likely).
I could understand if Tiras had gone to 'suss' out the situation in the USA but Cora surely had to be in Yorkshire if the birthplace (Bradford) of both Fred and 'Syrus' on the 1898 Ellis Is record is correct, and if the baptismal records for them were correct (both in Manningham - Fred in Apr 1889, and Tiras in Jul 1891). Unless Cora was (before the start of the Ellis Is records) going back and forth like a yoyo between Bradford and the US ...However, there's one thing I think I would be doing Louise - given that Valda has found next of kin recorded on some Attestation Papers, I think I'd be following up on those for John W BENN (or however he was recorded). After all John Wilson BENN/John William BENN/John WILSON is the central character in this drama.
JAP
20 December 05
Hello All It is so frustrating that I cannot now do anything without a few trips round the country that I cannot take until the new year. However, in the meantime, I did notice this link on this site to another Siras Wilson, the one mentioned above by Valda I think, from Bramley in Leeds - not a very long way away. There are quite a few Cyrus Wilsons on Google, I never thought to spell it that way.
http//www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=0270736954914ae31e9c1f8fcd43b257&topic=64727.msg263506
I promise I won’t be going away and you will hear from me again, John W and Samuel, Eliza and JDL, they all need our input.
Best wishes for a happy Christmas
Louise
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23 December 05
What odds would you give me on the fact that the two years that FreeBMD have not yet covered for birth registrations are1. 1868 when Tiras/Siras/Cyrus was born and 2. 1881 when John William/Wilson Benn was born. So at the moment I cannot trace Tiras' certificate, even if I wanted to and cannot look for any other John (William) Wilson births with a mother Ellen/Nellie either. Still, I have waited 20 years, a bit longer won’t hurt - perhaps I can find some indexes to view when I go to Bradford library in the new year.
Best wishes
Louise
23 December 05
You could try requesting a look up on 1837 online or use the searchable database here
https//www.familyrelatives.org/treequest/jsp/customer/index.jsp
there is a charge though.
Regards
Valda
23 December 05
Louise, Just a quick thought - Even though the years you mention haven't been transcribed by FreeBMD, they do have images for all quarters available for 1868 births (but only the December quarter for 1881). Maybe worth a quick check?
http//images.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/choose.pl
Martin
30 December 05
Valda and Martin I took both of your advicee I searched the images, a very interesting pastime and I am very pleased to have learnt about the option, now when I have time I can crawl all over the Wilsons for 1881 and see if there are any John W Wilson births. I did not find Tiras/Siras so followed Valda's advice and asked for a lookup on 1837.com Amazingly within a very short time someone called Kev came up with a birth registration for Tiras Wilson in December quarter 1867 in Bradford which I have now ordered. I am a bit disappointed in one way, because it means he is probably the natural child of Robert and Ellen, where we had hoped he might be adopted, but then again if his mother turns out to be nee Lister or nee Widdop or some other useful family name of mine, he could still be a key to the mystery. I have not yet asked for the 1881 look up as I want to try to find John William Wilson/Benn myself - I feel so guilty when I ask someone else to spend their own money on my family.
Heartfelt best wishes as always
Louise
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January 06
Just when you thought it was safe to concentrate on your own family tree.....(Cue the music from Jaws.......)I have got the birth certificate of Tiras Wilson. He was born 24th September 1867 at 163 Wapping Road, Bradford. He was the son of Robert Rawnsley Wilson and Nelly Wilson formerly Beevers. Nelly set her mark on the certificate as the informant. There is nothing else to learn from this certificate. I have done a cursory search for Nelly Beevers to no effect. I do know that there is a Councillor in Slaithwaite today called Gordon Beever, so there is or there are shades of this name in the vicinity. I have continued to search for the birth of a John Wilson to these parents in 1881 to no avail. I continue to believe that these parents remain a good bet for the adopted parents of my JWB although there remains no proof. I remembered today that my Uncle Jim (technically my father's Uncle, not mine) had either the first name or the second name of Frederick, which is the name of Tiras' son. This may or may not be a coincidence.
I have tried to find an association between Beevers and Benn or Lister but so far to no avail. I will be very interested to learn what you make of this, you do know that I am never going to stop gnawing this bone until we have teased out all of the bone marrow that we can find.
Best wishes
Louise
29 January 06
Not sure whether this will help 1851 census HO107 2307 folio 4013 Craven Street Bradford Yorkshire Henry Beavers 36 Kirkheaton, Yorkshire, Head Married Weaver Fancy Sarah Beavers 32 Kirkheaton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Thomas Beavers 11 Kirkheaton, Yorkshire, Son Nelley Beavers 9 Kirkheaton, Yorkshire, Daughter Sam Beavers 7 Kirkheaton, Yorkshire, Son Joseph Beavers 6 Kirkheaton, Yorkshire, Son Adam Beavers 3 Kirkheaton, Yorkshire, Son Amas Beavers 1 Bradford, Yorkshire, Son 1861 census RG9 3321 folio 51367 Bolton Road Bradford Yorkshire Ellen Beavers 19 Kirkeaton, Yorkshire, Lodger Worsted spinner in mill Lodging aloneI can't find the rest of the family on the 1861 census.
1871 census RG10 4461 folio 56 Craven Street Bradford Yorkshire Sarah Beavers 52 Kirkheaton Head Widow Amos Beavers 21 Bradford, Yorkshire, Son At Dye works Albert Beavers 12 Bradford, Yorkshire, Son Factory Hand Mary Jane Beavers 8 Bradford, Yorkshire, Daughter Adam Beavers was married to a woman born in Hartlepool and Samuel Beavers was with wife Mary who was born in Bradford circa 1847. Both men living in the Craven Street area. There was a Joseph Beavers of about the right age claiming a birthplace of Huddersfield. He was married to Sarah (Elizabeth nee Smith) born Bradford circa 1847. I can't see Thomas. This might make it worse but if it was the right Nelly it might help explain why the marriage between Robert Wilson and Nelly is so elusive. I can't see another Ellen/Nelly in the Bradford area on the 1861 census and I can't find a Nelly Pearson or Webster in Bradford on the 1871 census (haven't looked for an Ellen).From FreeBMD Marriages Dec 1865Beavers Nelly Bradford, Yk 9b 116 Pearson Job Bradford Yk. 9b 116 or Webster Thomas Bradford, Yk. 9b 116
Regards
Valda
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10 March 06
NOW IM TOTALLY CONFUSED ! I have completely lost the convo so i thought i would put in what i have to confuse matters even more ! I have in my tree JOHN WIDDOP born Silsden 1836, married ARABELLA LONGBOTTOM and had 5 known children, BOOTH, WILLIE, LUCY, EDITH AND MINNIE. if you have a link please get in touch ?
Best wishes
Joanne
10 March 06
Hi Louise and fellow listers, Alec Bevers Wilkinson b 1907 Wibsey married Lilly Fearnley. Their son Brian b 1933 in Burley married Mavis Lister from Bradford. Of course this is just a very red herring and I'm just letting you know that I haven't deserted you. Slaithwaite (pronounced Slowit) is out in the wilds near Huddersfield near J25 (I think) on the M62. A longish way from Wibsey.
Regards
Dave
March 06 1822
Hello Just a quick note to say that I have not forgotten this wonderful thread either. I have two main outstanding tasks.1. To go to Bradford and look at parish registers for Samuel Benn's birth and family to verify whether there are any other possibilities 2. To go to London GRO and look at army papers for John William/Wilson Benn in the period prior to 1899.These and other tasks though will have to wait until May now as I have other commitments in the short term. But all your hard work will not have gone to waste, I promise
Best wishes
Louise
26 April 06
I've just come to this thread. The coming of the 1841 census prompted me to look again at my northern ancestors. I don't know the area well and I find that frustrating. My gt gt grandmother was Sarah BENN born Rochdale 1852. Her father, Joseph born 1828, came from Halifax. I think his father was Josuah. From the IGI it looks as if the family were Zionists. I searched the SIT and found Louise who pointed me towards this amazing thread. The 3 lads on the left are Sarah's grandchildren.
26 April 06
I can't remember now - did we ever find the Benns on the 1841 census?HO107 1292/2 ED2 Page 12Brown Royd? Hill North Brierley Bradford Yorkshire Mary Benn 45 Yorkshire Elizabeth Benn 20 Yorkshire Stuff weaver Mary Benn 15 Yorkshire Stuff weaver Margeart Benn 8 Yorkshire Samuel Benn 7 Yorkshire Joshua Benn 4 Yorkshire
Regards
Valda
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11 October 06
Well it has taken ages but my mum has done a splendid job down in the PRO in Kew and has finally found the attestation papers for John William/Wilson Benn when he joined the Yorkshire Artillery militia in January 1899.He was aged 19, 5'7" and weighed a miserable 116lbs He was living at 105 Chuch Street, Manningham, Bradford and called himself John Wilson. I have re-read all the thread and Nellie Wilson and Robert Rawnsley Wilson were living at 105 Church Street in 1881 without a baby John and Nellie the widow was living at 105 Church Street in 1891 with a 10 year old John. So it is definitely them. John then joined the Yorkshire Artillery Militia in 1899 and then the Northumberland Fusiliers in 1902.We cannot find him on the 1901 census so he was probably on manouevres somewhere. We have found a possible Nellie Wilson in 1901 in Scarborough in some sort of home.John married Daisy Kate Hilton in Scarborough in 1903 as a fusilier. So, the mystery is solved.My great grandad the foundling was brought up by Mrs Wilson and did change his name from John William Benn to John William Wilson, then to John Wilson and then to John Wilson Benn.
The only thing we don’t really know is how Eliza Vipond knew Nellie Wilson and what kind of relationship they had that meant Nellie bringing up the child. But we do believe that in all probability Nellie Wilson was the witness at Eliza's subsequent wedding to John Long so they might have been friends already, or became friends following the "adoption".We know that Nellie Wilson was nee Beevers and we don’t have any Beevers in Eliza Vipond nee Lister's family tree so far as we can see, although we don’t know much about her mother, Betty Widdop's family, so a Beevers might be in there somewhere. Did babies go to families and friends, or might they go to strangers? Poor Nellie, left widowed, son Tiras emigrates and adopted son joins the army and goes off round the world. I wonder what happened to her
Best wishes
Louise
12 October 06
I'm obviously pleased the militia records finally proved the key and gave just enough information to prove the connection. It is always worth mopping up all the records you can find connections to.
Regards
Valda
04 January 07
There are around 122 Nellie Wilsons in Yorkshire in 1901 but Nellie in Scarborough is the only one born in the first half of the C19th. Probably the usual interesting coincidence. The other Nellies all have birth dates from the 1870s onwards.Working class widow and hotel don't really go together until the second half of the C20th and probably the Nellie you are interested doesn't go with the Scarborough 'home'. I'm not quite sure what sort of a place it was but these are all the people who were there census night. All single unless specified (including Nellie) Julia S Mackarness 64 Clapham, Middlesex, Head Hon. Lady Supt of Home Katherine E Haverfield 38 Shipton on Stour, Worcestershire, Niece Deputy Lady Supt of Home Caroline L C B Molineux 32 Kennington, London, Visitor Lady Nurse
I have had a look on the Scarborough directory and 38 Ramshill Road is a fruit and game dealer owned by Mr Richards, in a row of shops, in between a book shop and a grocers.However, Miss Julia Mackarness is a matron of a Convalescent Home, St. Martin's lodge, South cliff. Her father is Mackarness Rev. Charles Coleridge, M.A., St. Martin's vicarage, South cliff Now Daisy Kate Hilton who married John William Wilson/Benn worked in a convalescent home in Scarborough, I think it was called the Sanitorium when they married in 1903....So, it looks like Nellie was convalescing on the census.
05 January 07
And of course with every year we progress nearer the release of the 1911 census - now just under a mere 5 years away. So you get another shot at Nellie in Scarborough or elsewhere, if she lived up to 1911.
Regards
Valda
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I would like to publicly thank Valda, ArranRoots and Trystan for their help in resurrecting this thread, I am extremely grateful to you all. This means a lot to me and my family, very best wishes, Louise
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Good morning
I wanted to let you know that I have finally cracked the mystery of Samuel Benn's parentage and given the work that so many put into this research I thought you would want to know.
To recap, we began with Samuel Benn on my Great Grandfather's birth certificate in February 1881 at 26 Bank, Eccleshill, Bradford, and a month or so later on the 1881 census with mother and child (and two other children, neither his) at the same address. He is aged 41 and born in Shelf.
We couldn't find a marriage to Eliza (there was none actually), and we couldn't find anyone else who looked right for Samuel of that age. So we drew up a list, together, of every possible Samuel Benn on any census in Bradford and Halifax and ruled them out, laboriously, until we were left with only one candidate; husband to and father of 9 children with Elizabeth Jowett.
This Samuel, our Samuel, was born in Shelf circa 1836/7 on a few censuses.
(The research until this point had taken me 24 years)
I found his marriage at Bradford Parish Church (now the cathedral) to Elizabeth Jowett in 1853 where his father was given as William Benn, weaver.
And there the research ended, totally stuck.
Yesterday, like many times before, and 9 years since the last breakthrough I decided to have another go at it; I decided to search on Findmypast for anyone called Benn with a father called William living in Yorkshire with a 30 year window either side of Samuel's approximate age. This brought up a small group of people getting married in Bradford Cathedral, all laboriously recording that their father was William Benn, weaver.
John Benn born 1826 marrying Ann Birch in 1856
Margaret Benn born 1832 marrying Isaac Kellett in 1849
Mary Benn born 1825 marrying John Hartley in 1846
This gave me a small family group to search for on the 1841 census.
What I found was
HO107/1295/1/10 p 14
Clayton Heights, Thornton, Bradford
Martha Benn 36
Margaret Benn 9
Samuel Benn 7
James Benn 5
Betty Benn 2
All born Yorkshire with no sign of William
This gave me a couple more names to add to the small family group I was developing and the first sign of their mother's name.
I searched for the children with father William / mother Martha but only could find John. He was baptised in 1837, 11 years after his birth (which was given in 1826 born Clayton Heights) in Queenshead General Baptist Chapel, Clayton.
After some more thought and quiet frustration, I searched for the children using only their mother's name; I came up with a series of three, on the same page - of the Queenshead General Baptist Chapel - on the same day as John in 1837.
However, their father was given as Isaac Sharp (and mother Martha Benn, daughter of John Firth) born in Hunger Hill, Northowram, Halifax.
I should point out that this is a very different register to a Church of England Parish Register, there were only three entries to the page but they were long and included an affidavit from Martha as to their date and place of birth.
I should also point out that the village of Clayton Heights and the hamlet of Hunger Hill are both part of modern day Queensbury ward, Bradford, but back in the mid 1800s these were divided between Halifax and Bradford.
Margaret Benn born 1832
Samuel Benn born 1834
James Benn born 1835
Obviously their parents were not married so they took their mother's surname.
At last I had found him. Samuel. Not the son of William Benn at all, but the son of Isaac Sharp.
The 1851 census showed the family living together in Clayton (Holmes Hill) with Isaac Sharp as the Head and Martha Firth as a servant; their children shown with the Sharp surname and a few new children added to the group - Anthony and Fanny.
The 1861 census and subsequent ones show the Sharp family with Martha now a Sharp herself.
I found a marriage between Matty Firth and William Benn on 30 Jul 1826 at St John the Baptist, Halifax
And another between Matty Benn and Isaac Sharp on 8th May 1859 in Bradford parish church.
So, after about 20 years together they were finally able to marry - I suspect William Benn must have died around this point....
I found Isaac Sharp on the 1841 census eventually, he was living a few doors away from Martha and the children, the indexers have put him in a household with James and Fanny Sharp but I am not absolutely certain, there are three lines /// drawn between each of the three of them, they may have been neighbours rather than cohabiting. But I don't mind if it is hard, if it is going to take a while to unravel; after all it has taken 33 years to find out the names of my great great great grandparents. Good things come to those who wait.
I thought about Matty and Isaac last thing before I went to sleep and first thing when I awoke, it is the most joyous feeling in the world.
Nothing beats genealogy
Thanks for letting me share!
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For completeness, I need to tell you that a few weeks after I wrote the March 2016 post, identifying Joseph Dyson Lister's father, Samuel Benn, and his grandfather Isaac Thorp, I discovered through a DNA test that Joseph is not my biological great grandfather. The research in this thread is all true and all stands. And it has been enjoyed and appreciated by Joseph's biological descendants.
I have identified who my great grandfather really was and that has been a true joy, so all is not lost.
A huge irony though, all the same.