RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Wednesday 25 July 12 00:02 BST (UK)
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Is there a general rule as to which ancestors you use to declare your nationality? And do you use where they were born as the main criteria, or do you have to add in where their parents were from?
For instance, I was born in Essex to Welsh parents, and having lived back in Wales for nearly 50 years have always declared myself to be Welsh. And until 6 months ago when I started my family tree, I believed my ancestors to be Welsh. How wrong I was!
~ My parents and grandparents were born in Wales (all in Cardiff); but...
~ of my great grandparents, 4 were born in England, 3 in Wales and 1 in Ireland (though they all lived in Cardiff for many years and all died here); and
~ of my great great grandparents.. 7 were born in England, 5 in Ireland, and 4 in Wales.
I guess it doesn't matter which you use, unless you wish to claim nationality for one reason or another (sports) but I just wondered if there is an accepted use.
Thanks.
Deirdre
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Isn't your nationality where you yourself were born - not where your parents etc were born?
My husband was born in Wales but both parents were born in England. He has always used Welsh as his nationality
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If you was born in England then your english with roots from elsewhere.
On a census you would put born England
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Is there a general rule as to which ancestors you use to declare your nationality?
Thanks.
Deirdre
I don't think there is a general rule, everyone is different.
I consider myself Welsh because I was born and brought up in Wales (I have one Welsh parent and one Irish parent).I 100% feel Welsh, even though I'm 50 50 by blood. Wales is was were I spent most of my life from birth, it is my home- I feel nothing but Welsh
My son is born in Australia (to two welsh born and bred parents), he says he is Welsh and I have to keep reminding him you are also Australian - "no I'm Welsh, when are we going home mum?, I really want go home to Wales "( he's never stepped foot in the UK, but he keeps calling Wales his home - he's only 6 and already a proud welshman :D) .
" Isn't your nationality where you yourself were born"
No, the country of your birth is not necessary your nationality, or your only nationality- your birthplace is just that, it's just somewhere that you happened to be born, it is not a nationality.
My son's nationality is also British , he wasn't born there . He was born here in Aus to parents that are both British and Australian citizens, so he holds these two nationalities from birth . Like my son, I am also two by birth rights, and hold both passports ( not including the Aus nationality as I applied for that).
My cousin was born in Singapore , it doesn't make her a Singaporean- Her nationality is British only. Plenty of foreigners are born within Britain , it does not make them of British nationality, same as there are plenty of people are born here in Aus to non citizens,or Permanent resident holders , their offspring are not Australians. They are legally considered only nationals of the countries that their parents are citizens of.
Your parents status at the time of your birth is very important to what Nationality or nationalties you legally are.
Just because you are born in a said country , it does not mean that you are of that countries nationality.
Kind regards :)
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My son was born in NZ to British parents, therefore has dual nationality, and is resident in Oz.
My second husband and his parents were all born in England. He father and grandfather were Yorkshiremen, mother and mother's father were Liverpool-born - an interesting mix!
We now know (and have birth certs) that one grandmother was born in Dublin to Irish parents, and the other managed to be born in New South Wales ??? 8)
Sadly this doesn't give us the right to live in Oz, so we'll have to do it the hard way :(
Carol
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"plenty of people are born here in Aus to non citizens,or Permanent resident holders, their offspring are not Australians"
Really? Anyone born in the US automatically has American citizenship by birth no matter what the nationality or legal status of his parents.
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Here, you are Australian citizen by birth if one of your parents is either an Australian citizen ( by birth rights , or naturalisation ) , or if one of your parents are a Permanent resident ( eg your parent holds a permanent residence visa,) - children born to temp visa holders are not Australian by birth, they are the nationality of whatever the parents are.
"Anyone born in the US automatically has American citizenship by birth no matter what the nationality or legal status of his parents."
That surprises me. So if I'm pregnant and then I fly over over there for a holiday , or went there on business and I give birth in the US , even though I was on a temp visa , the child is automatically an American citizen?
surely not? :o It would be an easy way for people to get their soon to be born children a US passport wouldn't it?
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Amendment 14 to the U.S. Constitution:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. ..."
People born with dual nationality must choose, at age 18, whether they wish to retain US citizenship and give up their other nationality. Apparently that is not true in the UK, though. My mother was English but I was never offered the option of British citizenship.
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Amendment 14 to the U.S. Constitution:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. ..."
I'm shocked :o Don't you get foreigners from so called developing countries going there on purpose just to give birth, so that their child can be born a US citizen?
Ireland used to be a little bit like that.Irregardless of what the parents legal status , a child born there was considered an Irish citizen by birth , but the Irish have amended that law now as foreigners were misusing/abusing it.
Kind regards
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"Don't you get foreigners from so called developing countries going there on purpose just to give birth, so that their child can be born a US citizen?"
Possibly, but it is, after all, a nation of immigrants. I always assumed most countries operated in the same way. At any rate, the US is not the only one. For example, my father was born an American [by virtue of having American parents] but he was born in a Portuguese colony. That gave him dual citizenship at birth and, at age 18, he renounced any claim to Portuguese citizenship.
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I'm shocked :o Don't you get foreigners from so called developing countries going there on purpose just to give birth, so that their child can be born a US citizen?
Yes.
That is the law in most countries in the Americas - but pretty much only the Americas.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
Alexander
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NZ made changes to citizenship by birth as a general right quite recently ... http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/alreadyinnz/residents/becomingacitizen/
... prior to that, it was possible to be a citizen by birth for anyone outside the current restrictions.
It doesn't answer the actual nationality question. NZ is still a young country in terms of citizenship and we have the option of ticking various boxes when it comes to nationality ... ie NZ European in my case and that of my husband, both born NZ to parents also born NZ but of European descent.
Added ... generally speaking though, just New Zealander suffices.
:) mare
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Maybe this complicates things too much, but what would be the situation if a child was born in international waters? ;D
I know one shouldn't fly whilst pregnant, but what if you were born in another country's airspace as a result of a very premature birth? ;D
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I was confused about my father's nationality for some years, still am to some degree. He was born in Surokarta in Indonesia to two Dutch born parents and had a Dutch passport, so was presumably Dutch at that point. In his teens, because of trouble in Indonesia and unemployment in the Netherlands, his family were forced to move to South Africa.
After WWII began, his father apparently paid to naturalize most of the family as British, part of the Commonwealth. My father and his older brother fought in WWII. After the war, he went to university in England, married my mother and had 6 children. During that time South Africa left the Commonwealth. So did he become South African then? The South African definition of being a citizen was that if you remained in the country you were ok, but if you lived abroad you had to renew your citizenship at the embassy once a year, otherwise you lost it, thus becoming stateless. At some point, I don't know why, this happened to my father and he then became naturalized British.
I gather the Dutch refused to take in people wishing to leave South Africa and Zimbabwe no matter that all their family tree was Dutch. One of my uncles was quite bitter about this rejection, since he fought for them during the war. I do wonder what nationality my father thought he was, claytonbradley
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Presumably there is a difference between citizenship, nationality and ethnicity?
Ethnicity is something you can't change... citizenship is something that you can change...I wonder where nationality fits into all that
Milly
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I understand that the term nationality refers to which nation you belong - either by birth or naturalization. The nation to which you feel ties to would be a result of the culture you are raised in. I usually refer to this as my heritage.
I was born in Australia to Welsh/English parents. My nationality is most definitely Australian ... with British heritage.
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...it gets more complex when national boundaries move around! The borders of England and Scotland haven't changed (indeed are unchanged since before the Act of Union), but aiming this question at people from parts of Europe would result in some mixed answers. I'm interested in Otto von Oettingen whose father Burchard was born in Riga in modern Estonia and went to school in modern Cesis, Latvia. They would probably have stated their nationality as Prussian or German, as these areas were then within the Prussian borders.
I'm also interested in family who settled in Texas before independence and remained on the same farm, thus living under three successive national flags, Mexico, Texas and US. No passports in those days!
The increased mobility of people these days will present some interesting challenges to RootsChat members in 200 years' time, I can confidently predict. Substantial numbers of people change their citizenship; many get married in countries well away from their "home parish"....
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Hi Graham, not sure if it was a typing error but Riga is not nor ever been Estonian it is the Old and present Capital of Latvia, part of the city has an area called Vec Riga and that means old Riga, there are many old buildings dating back many centuries. Latvia certainly had a checkered past with German, and Swedish and the most recent Russian rulers.
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(Deirdre, you are totally Welsh in Welsh peoples eyes if you feel passion for your country, and have Welsh parents - being born in England to Welsh parents does not make you English for goodness sake ! ;D lol - You are Welsh if that is what you feel ( you were born to Welsh parents!!), whilst you get some people who are born in Wales with no Welsh heritage at all and have no passion for their birth place at all -they are not considered Welsh by the real Welsh
very kind regards )
Thanks; beginning to wish I'd never asked the question now! Didn't realise it would cause such angst :-[
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Don't regret asking the question - it's resulted in a real debate and a lot of clarification. :)
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I think the point Cell was trying to make is that nowhere on an "English" or "Welsh" birth certificate does it specify the country. In fact, there were lots of registration districts that covered civil parishes in both England and Wales, so certificates from both countries might be mixed together in the same books (if the subdistrict also spanned both countries).
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Part of a job i used to have was helping people fill in forms (some official govermment ones). You would be amazed how many people here would say/write "Yorkshire" for Nationality/Country . Abaht reight :)
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I think that the Welsh would have something to say about that Sally.
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Hi Llandinam . Im not sure i understand what the Welsh might "have to say" about Yorkshire people regarding Yorkshire as a Country ? It was just a general comment about "Nationality" . However i do think Wales and Yorkshire have a lot in common (size , history , politics , industry , sheep ! :) though Yorkshire does have a higher population) . Something i have become aware of over the years is that we (Northerners) can be blunt spoken to others and i think this can often be taken the wrong way and missunderstood as rudeness or not being polite by people from other areas . My nan was Welsh by the way and spoke Welsh so if she had had something to say about it im not sure i would have understood that either :) Ah well .
Edit : mind you having said that, my nans mother was actually born in Durham ! Her Welsh parents lived there for a short time , coal mining . And her dad worked the mines and was from Lancashire ! . Im all confused now ! Hahahaha :)
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From the web site of the UK Border Agency
If you were born in the UK before 1 January 1983
If you were born in the UK before 1 January 1983, you are almost certainly a British citizen. The only exception is if you were born to certain diplomatic staff of foreign missions who had diplomatic immunity.
If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983
If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983, you are a British citizen if at the time of your birth one of your parents was:
a British citizen; or
legally settled in the UK.
If you were born in a qualifying territory on or after 21 May 2002
If you were born in a qualifying territory, you are a British citizen if either your father or mother is a British citizen.
If neither parent is a British citizen, you will still be a British citizen if either your mother or your father was legally settled in either the United Kingdom or that particular territory at the time of your birth.
As to subdivisions within the general term it is my personal belief that you are what your heart tells you whether it's Scottish, Irish, Welsh or English
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Hi Graham, not sure if it was a typing error but Riga is not nor ever been Estonian it is the Old and present Capital of Latvia...
Thanks for the correction, my typing error here.
On a more general point, naturalisation is interesting too. If a British national is naturalised in another country, they do not lose their British nationality but become dual nationals. However other countries have laws which say that if you naturalise in a second country, you lose your citizenship.
I also have memories of working with someone with triple nationality (UK, US, Irish) and three passports. She said the difficulty lay in remembering which passport/nationality she'd used to enter a country when it came to the exit border controls, so that entry and exit records matched up.
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I was born in Australia but was also able to apply for a British passport because my father was born in the UK. My mother was also born in the UK but they do not take her nationality in to account - only your paternal lines. If my father was born in Australia, I could have still applied for a British passport because my paternal grandfather was born in the UK - still no regard given to my mother's nationality. Bit sexist I reckon! :P
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"My mother was also born in the UK but they do not take her nationality in to account - only your paternal lines."
Ah, I guess that's why the UK didn't offer me the option.
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To add to the mix...
My French friend was born here (in Wales actually) when her French mother gave birth unexpectedly early whilst she and the French father were here accompanying a school party. Mother and baby had to stay in Wales for a couple of weeks when dad took the party back to France. As a result my friend has dual British/French nationality. She grew up in France but met her husband while studying English here and has lived in England ever since.
Another (British/English) friend was married to a RAF pilot, their middle daughter was born overseas. (Malta I think). When the daughter was about 16 and needed to get her own passport, they had a devil of a job to get one, even though both parents were British. It was granted eventually.
Quite possibly the rules have changed now, but legal 'nationality' is obviously a complex thing. ::)
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Different governments can change citizenship eligibility too so this can further complicate because what was/wasn't possible at one point can be changed.
Today there was an article about some change to German citizenship that will make it possible for some applicants who were previously declined to now have the citizenship:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/germany-eases-citizenship-rules-for-descendants-of-nazi-victims
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Isn't your nationality where you yourself were born - not where your parents etc were born?
My husband was born in Wales but both parents were born in England. He has always used Welsh as his nationality
as far as I know different countries have different rules. In UK it was being born here but after a certain date (some times in early 80s) where your mother's nationality comes into it.
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Cliff Richard was born in India but nobody would deny he is English. Perhaps we need some sort of algorithm to give weight to different aspects of our heritage. My parents were both born in the same town but my grandparents came from every which where.
Zaph
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Cliff Richard was born in India but nobody would deny he is English. Perhaps we need some sort of algorithm to give weight to different aspects of our heritage. My parents were both born in the same town but my grandparents came from every which where.
Zaph
And Boris Johnson was born in USA! Can we send him back? ;D
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Cliff Richard was born in India but nobody would deny he is English. Perhaps we need some sort of algorithm to give weight to different aspects of our heritage. My parents were both born in the same town but my grandparents came from every which where.
Zaph
And Boris Johnson was born in USA! Can we send him back? ;D
Was chatting to a researcher on a FB genealogy group. She said I was disgusting for calling myself Scottish because I had admitted to only 29 of my 32 3x grt grandparents were born in Scotland unlike her who had all 32 born in Scotland. People get weird ideas, I don't know what other nationality I'd be.
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Cliff Richard was born in India but nobody would deny he is English. Perhaps we need some sort of algorithm to give weight to different aspects of our heritage. My parents were both born in the same town but my grandparents came from every which where.
Zaph
And Boris Johnson was born in USA! Can we send him back? ;D
Was chatting to a researcher on a FB genealogy group. She said I was disgusting for calling myself Scottish because I had admitted to only 29 of my 32 3x grt grandparents were born in Scotland unlike her who had all 32 born in Scotland. People get weird ideas, I don't know what other nationality I'd be.
She sounds like a lovely person.
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"She sounds like a lovely person."
She sounds like a fictitious person to me.
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"She sounds like a lovely person."
She sounds like a fictitious person to me.
why do you feel the need to constantly belittle me and others? Different people have different life experiences and you don't have to have had the same experience for it to be real. So you need to think before you decide to call someone a liar, there is no need to be nasty. There is always the option of not commenting if you have nothing nice to say.
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nationality is. a. strange thing...I always think. of. myself as very British, although ive only got English...with a small dash of German....blood, in my veins as far as I know....because I think ive been very much. influenced by the other countries in the uk too.
my nephews. wife is. an. interesting case....father danish, mother German....lived in the USA. from ages 3 to 14....living in Germany....has a danish passport but doesn't speak a word of the language.
I think Leeds united pulled a. clever trick a few years ago ....they realised that a lot of Australians could, in theory, qualify to play for England....so they signed. a lot of. talented young lads and made. them sign to say that, if they were to ever play international football, it would be for England.
Leeds knew there was little chance they'd. all be. chosen for England, although they might have been chosen for Australia.
so with this. trick. they made.sure most of. them wouldn't be lost. to international. duty
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nationality is. a. strange thing...I always think. of. myself as very British, although ive only got English...with a small dash of German....blood, in my veins as far as I know....because I think ive been very much. influenced by the other countries in the uk too.
my nephews. wife is. an. interesting case....father danish, mother German....lived in the USA. from ages 3 to 14....living in Germany....has a danish passport but doesn't speak a word of the language.
I think Leeds united pulled a. clever trick a few years ago ....they realised that a lot of Australians could, in theory, qualify to play for England....so they signed. a lot of. talented young lads and made. them sign to say that, if they were to ever play international football, it would be for England.
Leeds knew there was little chance they'd. all be. chosen for England, although they might have been chosen for Australia.
so with this. trick. they made.sure most of. them wouldn't be lost. to international. duty
That's because one of their grandparents was born in England. I remember one football manager (Charlton) of a national team publicly asking any professinal club footballer in Britain who had Irish grandparents to contact him. That team managed to be one of the teams who progressed to the last 16 in the World Cup.
A few years ago one of my grandsons had difficulty with his EU passport. His parents are English but he was born in Germany when his father had a contract to work there. As soon as a child reaches adulthood they are not covered by their parents' passport/nationality and the British passport officials insisted grandson had to refer any query about his passport to the German authorities.
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thats a strange one.
ive got a. friend. who's from Jordan...he had to submit his passport for inspection and they lost it, but they said not to worry because they'd contacted the Israeli embassy and they'd soon be sending him a new passport.
no, he said, he was Jordanian, not. Israeli....well, you're in the computer. as Israeli, so you must be....
it was eventually sorted out....after a very long time