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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: fred111 on Saturday 04 August 12 16:56 BST (UK)
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Anyone who has researched relatives in the Northumbrian mines will have heard of the Hartley Pit Disaster of 1862, where 204 men and boys were killed.
I have a distant relative who died down there - Winship Jack (or Jaques), who was my 1st cousin 3x removed.
I have always wondered what happened to his widow. Elizabeth Jaques (nee Wanlass ). She lost her husband and 3 brothers in the disaster. How on earth did she cope?
Elizabeth & Winship (named for his mother's maiden name) married on Earsdon on 23 May 1857. She was left with three little girls, Isabella 1857, Ann 1859, and Elizabeth 1860. I can find no sign of them. I presume Elizabeth married again.
There is an Elizabeth Bruce living with a Thomas and Mary Wanlass in 1871, but the ages of the Bruce children don't fit with her marrying again, and the three girls aren't there.
Has anyone come across Elizabeth or her girls?
Liz
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Liz,on free bmd there is an Elizabeth Jack marriage June qtr 1865 to either a Armstrong,Legg or a Lowery.Might be a possibility?
Steve
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I think she may have married Thomas Legg and can be found in Hartley Village on the 1871 census. Non of her earlier children are with them though. Elizabeth was 30 born Earsdon, Thomas 26, and children Christopher 5 and Robert 3.
Mo
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Yes she did marry Thomas Legg:
http://www.northtyneside.gov.uk/browse.shtml?p_subjectCategory=1289
LEGG, Thomas
Marriage date: 1865
JACK, Elizabeth
Marriage date: 1865
Father's Surname: WANLESS
Register Book, Entry Number: C-5 4, 149
Mo
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That's fantastic. Thank you. I suppose I wanted some happiness and security for her. I hope it was.
I wonder what happened to the girls.
Liz
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Hi
I have never found out what happened to Elizabeth's girls, though I do know for sure she married Thomas LEGG.
If you search on here for posts posted by 'mettle' you may connect with a relative!
'mettle' was also looking for information regarding the children, and may have photos of Thomas LEGG with Elizabeth.
Regards,
Trini.
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Have you got this information,
Sacred to the memory of Christopher
son of Thomas and Isabella Wanless
Who lost his life in the Hartley Pit
By the fatal accident of the engine beam breaking,
11th June 1862 ,aged 20 years
Thomas their son lost his life at the same time,
aged 19 years
Also their son John lost his life by the same accident
aged 15 years
Also Thomas their son,died April 22nd 1842 aged 6 years
Winship Jack
Their son in law also lost his life by
the above named misfortune
aged 21 years
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Are Thomas and Elizabeth Legg living in Hastings Row in 1881
Fred do you know if your family lived in Hastings Row before the disaster
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Hi Radcliffe :)
Yes, that was them living at Hastings Row, Seaton Delaval in 1881 :)
Trini.
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Winship anad Elizabeth Jacques were living in Holywell on the 1851 census.
Trini.
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Sorry! 1861 census!
Trini.
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That's okay Trini
I have quite a few notes on the residents of Hastings Row and neither Legg or Jaques are there,if you have lots of time,sorry not you personally ,you can sit and read all the original note books,stating who lived where ,how much money they were allotted,how many dependents, and when they moved the forwarding addresses,
They are at Woodhorn,I suppose if you married you wouldn't receive any more pension,
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Yes, and obviously Elizabeth was young enough to want to remarry.
It is said that Thomas LEGG was one of the helpers at the disaster (on his obituary) so perhaps he started helping Elizabeth out, and romance began :)
I'm as curious as everyone else as to what happened to the Jacques children, though.....perhaps they stayed with the Jacques relatives....who knows? More research is needed...... (as always!).
I will see if I can look up a copy of a photo I was given of Elizabeth and Thomas LEGG (probably 10 or more years ago) and will post if I find it.
Trini.
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That would be great if you can find it,
any way if any one has seen a missing wheelbarrow taken by mistake from St Albans during July could they please return it,
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Thomas LEGG's obituary, stating that he helped out with the Hartley disaster.
Trini.
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I had visitors, so have only just got back on the site and picked up the replies.
Thank you all for your interest and being so generous with your time.
Elizabeth & Winship lived in North West Row, Holywell, near Elizabeth's family, at the time of the disasters.
I said in my original message that Elizabeth lost her 3 brothers as well as her husband.
Her girls were Isabella 3.(named after both their mothers) Ann 1 & Elizabeth 6 mths on the 1861 Census. So they were still very small when their Dad died.
I'd love to see a photo of Elizabeth - thanks for the tip. ;)
Thomas Legg sounds a lovely brave man. Quite a character! lets hope Elizabeth had a good life with him.
Liz
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I have gone on to trace Thomas & Elizabeth Legg. They had 4 children, 3 boys, Christopher, John & Thomas - named after Elizabeth's 3 brothers lost at Hartley, and Isabella.
After Elizabeth died in 1893, Thomas went on to marry an Eliza and start a new family.
When I looked at the 1891 C, and her husband and 3 sons are down the pit, I couldn't help wondering how Elizabeth coped. If there had been other employment available, I bet they would have taken it.
Elizabeth lived just long enough to see her first Grandchildren (that I know of). Isabella married in 1891 and produced Thomas in 1891 and Andrew in 1982. The next baby was Elizabeth in 1895.
Liz
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I believe there was quite a bit on money gathered. I have an article somewhere and it is at NDFHS where the women and children were kept track of, the women were given a stipend of a sort until they died or remarried. Surviving children until they reasched a certain age--like 13 or 14. This was the start of the miner's fund--insurance?--that paid widows and children to a certain age. The women until the remarried or died.
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There are plenty of original records ,kept at Woodhorn,you just need to have the time to sit and read through them,
for example
Eliza Hills widow and 2 children 3rd child in Newcastle blind asylum
at expense of come,?
address to further payments
Rob Forrester,father
Astley Street Duckinfield
£2.00 a month
they are there ,but not on line
Eliza remarried in 1885
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There is always the possibility that the girls were staying with relatives or friends for the night of the Census.
They could indeed be living mostly with their mother and step-father.
I wonder whether Isabella died, as Elizabeth and Thomas called their daughter Isabella.
The other possibility of course, is that on losing so many relatives in the mine that Elizabeth had such deep depression, and was unable to care for her children herself.
Liz
PS I wish I could get to Woodhorn. I am 200 miles away and have mobility problems.
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It may be some time before I go to Woodhorn,
but if your post is still unanswered I will certainly look them up for you,
but it is a three hour drive for me to,so I only go there if it rains,
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That'll be great!
Liz
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Hi fred111,
I was born in Avenue Terrace, Seaton Terrace, Seaton Delaval.
My Grandfather was a friend of Tommy Legg who lived in Baxters place, my Grandfather used to tell that when the first world war broke out Tommy went to volunteer like the other lads of his generation, he was turned down because he was blind in one eye!.
Later on in the war when they were getting short of men and getting desperate he tried again and was accepted!,
My Grandfather used to say that the funny thing was that he got a pension from the army for the loss of his eye.
Malcolm
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Malcolm,
I wonder if this is the same person,
Thomas Legg
aged 35
a miner
born Seaton Delavel
home address
48 Clarence Street
Seaton Sluice
enlisted 1915
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I think the one I am talking about would be the one that was born about 1891,as was my Grandfather.
1915 was still early in the war so I don't think they were short of men that early, but I may be wrong on both counts.
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This is fascinating. Thanks for the interest.
The Thomas Legg who married Elizabeth was born in 1845, but they had a son Thomas who was born in 1877. Could that be him. ;)
Anyone who fought in WW1 deserved any pension he could get.
Liz
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Hi Liz,
That could be him as although my Grandfather was born in 1891 he used to call him old Tommy Legg.
Malcolm.
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The Hartley Disaster was before the NCOMPA records started (compensation)
However there are books, at Woodhorn, listing Orphans & Widows receiving benefits.
Your widow might appear on those.
Gen in NBL England
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Hi Liz,
When I was a kid I lived in Holywell village and there was a family who lived Two doors along from us who were called Jaques, he was a Deputy Overman at the Fenwick Colliery at East Holywell which was actually 1 mile due south of Holywell village. His Name was George Jaques,
when I was about nine ( 1956 ) I fell on a broken bottle and badly gashed the inside of my left knee, it was a gaping wound a bit like a codfishes mouth and I was panicking and my mother and father were panicking but along came George Jaques and cleaned it and dressed it until a doctor could come a few hours later to stitch me up!, that was the first time in my life I was stitched up but I have to say I have been stitched up many times since then,
George was an ardent Sunderland fan and used to be depressed for days if they lost.
My uncle was walking home one Saturday evening and met George coming the other way and casually said "Hello George, how did they get on today"?.
Only to get a very sharp " Mind your own bloody business" in response to his question.
Malcolm.
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The fund for the Hartley widows and orphans reached a staggering £80,000, with even Queen Victoria donating. (I have no idea what that would be in today's money.)
The widows were given 7s a week, and the varying amounts depending on how many children she had - 10/6d for a widow with 1 child, 13/6 for a widow with 2, 15/6 for a widow with 3, 17/6 for a widow with 4, & 19/6 for a widow with 5. The children received their allowances until the girls were 15 & the boys 12. Widows were given £20 on remarriage.
I loved your reminiscence about George. I don't think he was from Winship's immediate family, he isn't on my tree, but he could be a more distant cousin. Malcolm.
Liz
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Hartley records
Widow,
Elizabeth Jaques,
Long Row ,
3 children
birth dates
Isabella November 25th 1858
Ann July 13th 1859
Elizabeth,October 25th,it states 1861 as birth year
I tracked her payments up untill 1864,then I had to leave as an unexpected incident occured at home,
she is number 133 in the index,
I had intended to go through the New Hartley Schools admission records
So if anyone is going to Woodhorn and has a spare minute or two ,
this is the reference ,
NRO/488/A/18
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That's so good of you to take the time.
I find it fascinating when we have an insight into our ancestor's lives, it's not about gathering a list of names, it's about how they lived. (Everyone says to me - how far have you got back? - but there's so much more to it.)
I think the people like yourself who selflessly take time to look up records for complete strangers are wonderful.
Thank you
Liz
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It would be interesting to find out when the payments stopped.
Elizabeth married Thomas Legg in 1865.
If the payments to the children continued, we might find out who took them in.
I have been through the records again, they don't show up on the 1871 Census. Whoever took them may have changed their name.
Liz
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Family history to me isnt about how far we can go back ,or about claims to royalty
its social history and learning of our ancestors struggles,and how they over came such hard times,
every time I do a look up for someone,I learn,my knowledge of Northumberland was non existent untill a few years ago,but with thehelp of Rootschatters I now know enough to get around,well I still get lost now and again,
So I come back,
and I will look up those school records the next time I am in Woodhorn,
I tend to sit on table 4 ,if you ever get there yourself,
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I couldn't agree more. It's the social history that counts.
I can't get to Woodhorn. Unfortunately I'm now paraplegic, (not long out of hospital) and the trip I had planned to come north again and look up all the places where I now know my ancestors lived - has had to shelved indefinitely. I say to my daughter that we come from strong stock. But being in a wheelchair makes incedible restrictions to everything I do. I take my hat off to you and others who do look ups.
I'm so glad of the Bishops Transcripts. I've found out a lot from them. One day, let's hope all the records will be on line and widely available.
In the meantime, I'll have to leave Elizabeth & Winship's 3 daughters & just hope that one day someone will turn something up.
Liz
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I checked Radcliffs reference today at Woodhorn, it was the school admissions book.
She claimed for 3 children until April 29th 1864 when she was getting £1 11s weekly that is when the records finish until 1868, there is a gap in the records.
I looked at quite a few records but to cut to the chase, 2 of her daughters died, I don't know which. This seemed to be in the period between 1864-8 but it was not clear as records had been updated but the update not dated, if you see what I mean.
Here is what I found anyway
NRO488/A/5
Names and payments from 1868-72 No Jacques whatsoever mentioned.
NRO488/A/6
List of sufferers 1862-1903 Nothing about any JACQUES/Jacks
Statement of the sufferers by the Hartley Colliery Accident 1861 (list of widows and children)
Jacques Eliz is crossed out with no further info
Statement of the sufferers by the Hartley Colliery Accident 1862
JACQUES Elizth. Widow 3 children decrease of 2 children 1 children remaining widow married children dead (the latter notes might have been made later???)
NRO/488/A/18 Admissions & withdrawals at New Hartley School
(1862-1869) opened May 1862 & passed to the colliery owners in Jan 1870
Isabella Jacques index no: 97 1862 June 2nd age 5 of Long Row parents occupation: orphan no entry under withdrawal child unable to sign at admission
Annie Jacks (!) index no: 267 (no: 266 was Ralph Legge) admitted 1865 May 8th of Long Row orphan no further information
Elisabeth Jacks index no: 268 admitted 1865 May 8th of Long Row orphan no further information
NRO488/A02
Index to names of sufferers 1862 updated to 1872
Elizabeth Jacques widow
Isabella daughter age 3 at accident birthday Nov 25th 1858
Ann age 2 Jul 13th 1859
Elizabeth age 1 Oct 25th 1861
All names crossed out with no reasons given
There are other documents which could pin down the exact death of the daughters but they run over quite a few folders in different reference numbers.
The deaths could be ascertained from FreeBMD and then from burial registers.
It was quite depressing seeing how many children on the school register had "Fathers Occupation: orphan" beside their names, I presume they meant the father was dead not the mother also, as many widows claimed relief..... but this school had been set up for the relief of the disasters children.
Gen in NBL England
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Fantastic,
I knew those admission records could possibly hold some vital clues,
sad the children had died though
but it does clear up the fact that they are missing from the census,
I had them in my hands ,last week and it was so frustrating having to come away from Woodhorn without having the time to look at them ,
Gillian
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Ann Jacks
estimated birth 1860
death registered Tynemouth March 1868
Elizabeth Jaques ,death registered Tynmouth O/N/D 1865
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So if Isabella possibly survived into adulthood
she may have married
possible marriage Tynemouth district
to either Carl Johan Lund or James Henry Taylor
Isabella Jackes O/N/D 1885
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Carl Johan LUND - that name cropped up recently in another of my posts titled "Blyth - French?/Dutch? house facing Ridley Park?" If it's the same one he was a ships chandler at Blyth. Possibly another Carl in the same family????
Poor Elizabeth - lost husband, 3 brothers and 2 of her 3 children - women had to be tough in those days!
Gen in NBL England
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Gen I could only find him 1881, onboard a ship,in Newcastle,but if he is like my ancestors in North Shields he may have changed his name,
I will check back later as I have to do a few things,
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Thank you again from me. I am so saddened by the death of the two girls. After she's been through the loss of her husband & 3 brothers.
I did wonder if Isabella had died because she named the daughter she had with Thomas - Isabella.
There records are wonderful, that we can know so much about our relative's lives, but they are full of their heartbreaks too.
Liz
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On the site of New Hartley First School, there is a brief history about the village & the Disaster, they state that the school was opened in 1862, at 20 & 21 Double Row for 140 children aged 4 - 12 'of these 120, all but 35 were fatherless'.
Liz
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Trini - the obituary for Thomas Legg was interesting.
However, on following his life a bit further I find he married his second wife Eliza in 1897(4 Q). According to Wikipedia the Klondike Gold Rush was from 1897 - 99
If he went after the wedding, he wouldn't have been able to leave Eliza without financial support, especially as she had her 1st baby in 1898.
I wonder when & for how long he went to the Gold Rush!
Liz
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Hi.
Perhaps Tommy Legg was a good storyteller? I haven't found any evidence of him being part of the Klondyke...but records are probably sketchy. However, he did have a couple of brothers and sisters who went to America. One of them, Robert, moved from Ohio to Seattle (lots of info there.....check out the Issaquah museum website who have a great story on 'Bad Ben Legg!...who was Thomas' nephew). I can't dispute the Klondyke story, but then, I can't confirm it either. He's not my direct ancestor, so I haven't researched him fully.
This family of LEGG's have proved interesting :)
Regards,
Trini.
ps...the photo I have seen of Thomas LEGG must have been with 2nd wife Eliza....as he was an old man. I will keep searching....
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It has proved interesting, hasn't it!
You could very well be right about his storytelling.
Sometimes it's when you're not looking for something it turns up. . . . . .
Liz
PS I've just looked at the Issaquah site. It's an amazing account. I thoroughly recommend anyone to have a look at it!
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Hi Liz,
yes, the Issaquah stories are good. I've recently been in touch with the manager of the Museum there.....she's thinking of doing a book on 'Bad Ben Legg'.......intriguing. The best thing I found out about him: on the 1840 recently released US census he has his name as Benjamin Swinborn Legg. (his mother's maiden name was Swinburn). Methinks the Geordie accent must have played a part in this :)
Regards,
Trini.
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What relation is Ben to you, Trina?
Is there any romantic outlaw in your DNA!
Intrigued there's enough for a book. He must have been some guy, even if he was a rotten shot. ;)
Keep us posted
Liz
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I'm back.
More Leggs.
I've got so engrossed with this family that I have been following Thomas and Elizabeth's children to see what happened to them.
Christopher married another Elizabeth and by the 1911 Census they had nine children. It seems two of the girls died unmarried which could be down to the shortage of men after WW1
On the 1911 Census the youngest child is Sadie Legg, aged 3. I cannot find a birth marriage or death certificate for her.
There's a Sarah Bell J Legg born 1908. Could this be shortened to Sadie? ???
(Nelle and Bella's name were shortened, but not Dorothy Ann.)
Any ideas, folks?
Liz
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Hi Liz,
Ben's Great Grandparents were my 4 X Great Grandparents (Thomas LEGG and Sarah MATTHEWS). Most of the LEGG families in North and South Tyneside are related. One day I will collate them all, I'm sure :)
Trini.
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Wow. So you are descended from Elizabeth (nee Wanless) who was the one I was following originally, & Thomas Legg Snr! :)
Liz
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Hi Liz,
No, sorry, not a direct descendant. Thamas was cousin to my Great Great Grandfather Peter LEGG born 1950. We're from the same 'clan' tho! A very interesting clan it is, too.
:)
Trini.
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Ooops! that should read 1850!
Trini.
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It certainly is! (I didn't notice the deliberate mistake, either!) ;)
Liz
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Hi Liz,
Photos of Thomas LEGG as promised :)
Regards,
Trini.
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These are terrific, Trini. Especially the one of Thomas on his own. My Grandfather had a fob watch like that. Thank you.
Liz
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More than 30 years ago - and before the censuses were online - in fact, before computers were being widely used for genealogy, my wife Joan and I researched the Hartley Relief Fund and published the results in the Journal of the Northumberland & Durham F H S.
We started on this because Joan has a 'disaster glass' sold to one of her ancestors to help raise funds and originally we wanted to find out if she had any ancestors involved in the Disaster. She didn't as it turned out. Th ancestor was in nearby Seaton Delaval Colliery.
Now many years later the NDFHS has placed our article online and here is the link: http://www.ndfhs.org.uk/Articles/HartleyDis.html - hope you enjoy it! (Ref: Journal NDFHS, Vol 7 No. 4 (Sep 1982) pages 84 - 92).
Kind regards
Adam Bunting
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Thanks Adam.
I have looked at this site several times, and it always fills me with sadness - for the men and boys who died without hope, and the families left behind to grieve.
It is a sobering thought that it took a disaster like this to legislate that there should be more than one shaft in a pit.
I have been down a pit at The Black Country Museum in Dudley, West Midlands. But it seemed unreal with no activity, no noise, no dust, no smells, no shouting etc. It was a long way away from what the men of the Disaster era would have known.
Liz
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Hello, this information has been very helpful. Thomas Legg and Elizabeth Wanless are my great great grandparents. Elizabeth was married to Winship Jaques with 3 children when the mine disaster happened. This is the info I have: Isabella JAQUES was born on 25 Nov 1858. Ann JAQUES was born on 13 Jul 1859. Elizabeth JAQUES was born on 25 Nov 1860. Elizabeth then married Thomas in 1865 and they had 6 children, one being another Isabella in 1871. So I am not sure what happened to the first 3 children? The second Isabella is my great grandmother, she married Joseph Hodgson, and their son Robert is my grandfather who moved to BC Canada during the Great Depression. (His mother Isabella didn't want her son to work in the coal mines). Robert loved the outdoors and his job during the depression was to make trails on Forbidden Plateau near Comox on Vancouver Island. That is where he met his wife Agnes Revie, and had their daughter Evelyn (my mom). If anyone has corrections or additional info I would be appreciative.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/21113145830/in/photolist-rf8vnr-brbbbk-bfxqbe-yagofg-bfyhdz-rv28hm-dy8lt8
https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/48913067078/in/photolist-qktcrj-r1bnwo-yaam7q-yagofg-q6ssws-ql3dgk-rf1kut-2hwhfjj-2hwjb96
There are two 'Jacques' from the area who were killed during the Great War and their images appeared in the Illustrated Chronicle. I think there might possibly be some connection to the 'Jacques' first mentioned. Thought I would just mention this just in case this might be of relevance to someone researching this family now or in the future.
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For those of you with a particular interest in the Hartley Pit Disaster there is an article available online from the journal "Local Population Studies, No. 66 Spring 2001.
Scroll down to page 14 "Personal Tragedy or Demographic Disaster?"
The bibliography is good too and there are many other free articles available online from this journal. Well worth having a browse for other articles you may be interested in.
http://www.localpopulationstudies.org.uk/PDF/LPS66/LPS66.pdf
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I have a large and ever-growing number of direct ancestors and cousins that were killed or affected by the Hartley Pit Disaster and have tracked down various interesting contemporary articles etc. The following relates to one of the last men to leave the pit alive because my great x 3 grandfather fancied a chat with an old friend on his first day (back?) down this pit after a spell in Heaton. And lost his life as a consequence.
Incredible to find details of my ancestors death published more than 50 years after the tragedy. Just goes to show you never know what might turn up!
"Doudal" sounds like quite a character. ;D Maybe someone here will claim him as theirs?
"DEATH OF A BLYTH CELEBRITY
The funeral of the late George Watson, a local celebrity, who was in his 90th year took place at Blyth Cemetery on Sunday. Deceased was widely known as "Doudal" Watson, and was associated with the Hartley calamity of 1862. He with others had finished his shift, and was waiting at the shaft bottom to be drawn to the surface. The cage carried ten men, and nine had entered the cage. The tenth man, named Clough, whose turn it was, was engaged talking to another man, there being at that time no apprehension of the impending calamity, which took place a few minutes later. The onsetter called for someone to enter the cage, and Watson got it, and he with all the rest got safely to the surface. Then the beam of the pumping engine broke, and falling down the shaft broke it up, and all below - 216 men and boys - including the man Clough, perished of suffocation.
Watson was a man of powerful build, and in his younger days was noted for his prowess in the noble art of self-defence, but was a very genial kindly soul. He had an odd fancy in dress, which he maintained throughout his long life. He wore a "cheesecutter" cap and velvet jacket and cap, the vest being studded with numerous pearl buttons. He was a conspicuous figure at shooting matches, at which he took great delight, and a favourite hobby of his was cage birds. He was very expert as a fowler. He was blind for a number of years. A few years ago his sight was restored by an operation, but he lapsed back to blindness, and was often to be seen in Blyth, where he died, led about by a boy."
Source: Morpeth Herald 12 April 1918
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the relief fund pension books, handwritten ,actually contain small notes , noting disabilities children address's , remarriage etc so if your ever visiting Woodhorn, you can access them ,I have read through some of them many years ago, they are in great condition,or they were
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Hi Radcliff,
I spent a lovely day years ago going through as many of the Hartley documents as I could, they really are a treasure trove of information but they ended up raising far more questions than they answered! I dream of going back there to go through some more of the documents. It felt like such a privilege to be given access.